Restrictions to Guild/Subguild Based on Race

[Nao]

Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.

"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"

That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists

That's a fantastic idea, actually.  Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.

Enough d-elf tribes have reason, cause, and tribal role enough that they regularly send skulks/assassins out to cities that there could be a catch-all "city-born" or "pit-assassin" subguild exclusive to d-elves except the ones that literally dont ever visit cities, ever. which isnt alot

So - how would that subguild be different from slipknife/thief/whatever? Why do we need to restrict delf subguilds, then add a new subguild because these restrictions never made sense in the first place? 'Cities' also includes Luirs, why wouldn't a delf be able to sneak around there or even pick some pockets?

Delves are not thryzn, they have been nowhere near as isolated from larger settlements.

[Halaster]

...as long as there is the allowance that you can burn a spec app to get city-specific subguilds as a d-elf. That requires justification.

I like that idea too!

[Halaster]

So - how would that subguild be different from slipknife/thief/whatever? Why do we need to restrict delf subguilds, then add a new subguild because these restrictions never made sense in the first place? 'Cities' also includes Luirs, why wouldn't a delf be able to sneak around there or even pick some pockets?

Delves are not thryzn, they have been nowhere near as isolated from larger settlements.

We don't need to make a new subguild for a tribe.  But we can, and it could have some differences than the existing ones.

Based on the feedback, I like the idea of making the city-based subguilds to be specapps for delves.  By default, I don't think delves should be able to pick city subguilds.  Part of that is because they're 1 karma.  Delves are a part of the first batch of things someone opens with karma, so it's not uncommon for people to immediately play one, but they don't necessarily fully understand everything about playing them.  Restricting them to only the 'standard' things a delf can pick seems reasonable.  And then using a specapp and/or adding a tribe specific subguild could allow more established players to get around the restrictions.

That's my thinking currently on it.  I'm happy to have my mind changed again.

[najdorf]

d elves should be nervous / claustrophobic even in environments like morins / luirs. lack of super high walls shouldnt be a justification. the busy social life is there, and is enough to give them goosebumps. therefore they shouldnt have city skills.

[DesertT]

With the unique Two Moons relationship with Allanak, I feel it would be more appropriate than all other delf tribes combined, but I'm fine with making it a spec app process.

[HazelHomewrecker]

My main problem with making this sort of guild combination a specapp-only type thing, is that you already only have so few of them per year, and having to spend it on something like a MUNDANE subguild is going to feel so horrible unless you really really really really SUPER DUPER want to play that concept and want nothing else.

Honestly, with things requiring specapps coming more often, like how you might be turning splintered subguild mages into specapps, with full guild mages being the norm, why not increase the yearly specapp limit to 3 instead of 2. I could 100% justify spending a specapp on a delf with a city subguild that way. Just a thought.

[Patuk]

Who asked for this, anyway? Where did this suggestion stem from?

[Nao]

d elves should be nervous / claustrophobic even in environments like morins / luirs. lack of super high walls shouldnt be a justification. the busy social life is there, and is enough to give them goosebumps. therefore they shouldnt have city skills.

Morins and Luirs are two very different places. Luirs is a tribal trade hub with a lot of delf presence. This is reflected by a number of delf NPCs, delf traders, and room descriptions/room echos, the proximity to the tablelands and so on. Luirs is not associated with a city state, there are no templars ruling it. It is not the same as Morins and would not evoke the same response.

Elves have high wisdom and are fast learners, and there's the whole thieving thing. It makes no sense whatsoever that they couldn't learn to pick a pocket or a lock just because they're tribal.

Based on the feedback, I like the idea of making the city-based subguilds to be specapps for delves.  By default, I don't think delves should be able to pick city subguilds.  Part of that is because they're 1 karma.  Delves are a part of the first batch of things someone opens with karma, so it's not uncommon for people to immediately play one, but they don't necessarily fully understand everything about playing them.  Restricting them to only the 'standard' things a delf can pick seems reasonable.  And then using a specapp and/or adding a tribe specific subguild could allow more established players to get around the restrictions.

Is "1 karma players make delves with city subclasess that hang around in cities too much" a common problem? If so, can these subclasses just be two karma on delves?

I've seen
1. Delves with no utility skills because something like heavy combat/mage is so popular, leaving all the skinning/foraging/fletching to tribemates.
2. Loner delves

but not really 'that delf who hangs out in the city too much'.

[Brokkr]

Lore first, OOC skill selection second.

Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills.  Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not.  As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.

[LindseyBalboa]

Lore first, OOC skill selection second.

Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills.  Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not.  As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.

Tossed in a request. There are 2 tribes with lore of significant time spent in cities by desert-dwelling members.

[Nao]

Lore first, OOC skill selection second.

Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills.  Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not.  As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.

Dune Stalkers... cannot possibly learn backstab!?

[Suhuy]

Every celf alive is descended, somewhere along the line, from a delf who couldn't hack it in the sands and opted for a city dwelling existence. Over the King's Ages it would amount to untold thousands or even millions of elves shifting from the desert to the city (and perhaps sometimes also the reverse). For those individual elves in question, they somehow managed to make the adjustment. Maybe it wasn't easy, maybe they endured emotional stresses in the process but it still happened. Thousands and thousands of times over. I think the emotional response expected in these discussions is sometimes over exaggerated.

Added to this is the fact that the Known World is an unreasonably small scrap of land. Even if you RP taking it slow you can still go from one end to the other in well, well under a day (half even). This idea of delves being somehow akin to the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon is absurd. An uncontacted tribesman would indeed be traumatized at entering a city. A wild elf in an extremely small Known World where the nearest point of civilization is never more than an hour or so away in any direction is not going to be that traumatized at the ordeal. I'm not saying they won't be emotionally impacted whatsoever but, again, this is not the same thing as an Amazonian from an uncontacted tribe suddenly being thrown into Time's Square in Manhattan!

The other issue as far as I see it is this hyper-interpretation of city vs wilderness stealth. Regardless of what the help files state, no, city hide is not always blending into a crowd. It could also be hiding in a rubbish heap or concealing oneself in a darkened alleyway just outside a road, or literally hundreds of other possibilities as well. In these cases, you're using your surroundings rather than people in order to hide. I see no reason a delf couldn't do these things. Certainly with less familiarity, but let's not pretend like like hiding in bushes and hiding beneath a parked wagon is suuuuuuuch a big difference. It's really not.

Now if you want to say we've implemented these differences for purposes of game balance, that's totally fine. Just say it. But it's certainly not done because it reflects reality. Rather, it's done for the sake of overzealously enforcing policy.

[dumbstruck]

I think as balance ideas goes it makes sense. As an interpretation of these as being two different races when its common for the shift and intermingle between city and desert elf tribes to some degree (Akai Sjir and Sun Runners, Two Moons and Allanak - presumably appropriate Rinthi tribes) seems silly. In fact, I think from a balance perspective, keep this, but in addition, to make city elves more desirable...

Give city-elves a subguild that offers nothing but desert running. Nothing but that. So that your c-elf warrior in the Byn who's been in his background been with the Byn for ten years or whatever and came in as one of those special placed Byn Trooper positions, as example... why wouldn't he have desert run if it's conditioning and this guy's been running the desert for ten years, but that Two Moons who was born as a Nakki c-elf and got adopted in at fourteen or whatever now does?

Why not? We have a subguild to give nothing but custom crafting. One just for poisoning. And it wouldn't offer desert /stealth/, only /running/ which supposedly /all/ elves are proud of.

[Kestria]

My two pence for restrictions is..

Allow city elves to be able to have touched magick.
Scrap dwarves and HGs being able to be magick users at all.. they are tanks all on their own without magick to help

[LindseyBalboa]

Idk. I was thinking about this and it just seems so heavy handed and dismissive of player history and roleplay. "Desert elves might have newbies that do the wrong thing," makes sense but why don't we just trust new players that MIGHT join and MAYBE take a d elf at some point. Karma is trust right?

The other argument is "lore" but in reality there are assumedly ~30 RL years of lore and played history and retold stories showing d elves sneaking around in cities when they learn how to and focus on it.

It makes no sense to claim elves can't learn city stealth, or city elves can't go running. As noted these things are documented in previous player actions and histories. I know for a fact a PC c elf has learned to run the desert, for instance, in the few years I've played here.

As recent as a ~year ago RL files were updated to show a desert elf tribe was nearly destroyed, spent one generation inside a city, then the elves born in that city took off and went running into the wilds and reclaimed their wild running ways.

From the updated Silt Winds help file:

"Long thought to be extinct, a bare handful of Silt Winds were left in the cities at the time of the cataclysm that destroyed 98% of their people. Quickly rallying, and sadly losing themselves to the city for a generation, this desert tribe is one of the few who has fully re-freed themselves from the clutches of the city in order to retake to their wild roots on the sands once more."

So integration into a city is possible - and keeping in mind Brokkr's statement on GDB that elves are tricky and use stealth as first option over brute strength, they'd have learned stealth. The next generation, born in a city, went off and learned to run well enough to move a whole desert elf camp on trade routes in the wild.

The point of this is that elves are one race by help file and theme, and there is documented and role played history by PCs and NPCs that's being tossed. Beyond that, every elf who specializes in dual stealth is one less gick and is also one more PC that probably hunts rogue gicks.

[LindseyBalboa]

Idk. I was thinking about this and it just seems so heavy handed and dismissive of player history and roleplay. "Desert elves might have newbies that do the wrong thing," makes sense but why don't we just trust new players that MIGHT join and MAYBE take a d elf at some point. Karma is trust right?

The other argument is "lore" but in reality there are assumedly ~30 RL years of lore and played history and retold stories showing d elves sneaking around in cities when they learn how to and focus on it.

It makes no sense to claim elves can't learn city stealth, or city elves can't go running. As noted these things are documented in previous player actions and histories. I know for a fact a PC c elf has learned to run the desert, for instance, in the few years I've played here.

As recent as a ~year ago RL files were updated to show a desert elf tribe was nearly destroyed, spent one generation inside a city, then the elves born in that city took off and went running into the wilds and reclaimed their wild running ways.

From the updated Silt Winds help file:

"Long thought to be extinct, a bare handful of Silt Winds were left in the cities at the time of the cataclysm that destroyed 98% of their people. Quickly rallying, and sadly losing themselves to the city for a generation, this desert tribe is one of the few who has fully re-freed themselves from the clutches of the city in order to retake to their wild roots on the sands once more."

So integration into a city is possible - and keeping in mind Brokkr's correct and previous statements on GDB that elves are tricky and use stealth as first option over brute strength, they'd have learned stealth. The next generation, born in a city, went off and learned to run well enough to move a whole desert elf camp on trade routes in the wild.

The point of this is that elves are one race by help file and theme, and there is documented and role played history by PCs and NPCs that's being tossed. Beyond that, every elf who specializes in dual stealth is one less gick and is also one more PC that probably hunts rogue gicks.

"He's got a good point. Damn this is good it needs to be quoted," -Halaster, Discord, General, 7:29 AZMST AM Monday the 29th of May, 2023

[Armaddict]

I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.

[Suhuy]

I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.

So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.

I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.

I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.

[dumbstruck]

I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.

So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.

I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.

I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.

I miss sorely the days when listen was just listen and you could take your ranger to the bar and eavesdrop just like your merchant. Making it only matter or count for 'wilderness stealth' listening, rather than letting you eavesdrop on people had a couple of effects outside that as well: It made it much less interesting or worthwhile for huntery types sitting at the bar eavesdropping (I used to play this, I don't now, it does nothing because you can't hear shit without burning a subguild for a separate type of listen?), it made it much harder for wilderness types to up their listen. And I get where you can say that it's different trying to hide in a trash heap or blending in with people from ducking behind a bush to where you need a whole different skill for it, but why do you need to entirely different types of listen skill? Are light footsteps so different you can't tell light footsteps from light footsteps, if you're trying to suggest that it's about the listen vs stealth element? And if you're able to hear light footsteps of animals across a league coming in what might be fierce ass winds, why wouldn't you have at least a slightly increased chance of hearing what some guy down the bar is whispering when you're in town?

[Brokkr]

I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.

So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.

I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.

I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.

If it was years past it was decades ago.  This wasn't something that came about with the new classes and abilities.  It has been hard coded to guild and subguild for a long time, perhaps since the beginning, I do not know.  There was a subclass that got stealth skills and had no hard coding, so essentially it did not work, thus pulling it out into an ability so it was visible and consistent.

I actually agree with the original documentation about tribes coming into or leaving the city.  I think where disagreement comes is in timeframe.  You might be thinking an IC year to adapt to the new environment and I am thinking 15-20 IC years. I also see it as a mental switch, as an elf you are either comfortable in the city or the desert, but never both.

I know some of you think your character should be able to pick up city skills in an IC month or two.  Becoming comfortable enough and familiar enough with a city or the desert to pick up relevant skills to me is a much, much longer timeframe.  You do not know New York like a native even if you have been there a year. The skills depend on the environment, like how people act and what they notice in a city, or the behaviors of a variety of animals in the desert.  Those things take a long while to hone to a level to be useful.

While I know there has been IC history, folks ignoring and not playing to lore do not get to have the lore changed to reflect how they are playing.  And yes, things evolve.  There used to be Blackwing assassins.

There is only one elven race, but the environment shapes them.  Not over a year or two, but over a longer horizon.  Also, keep in mind if there is a base state for elves, it is city elves, not desert elves.  The largest desert elf tribes are 600-700ish, and in total they number in the thousands.  Large city elf tribes are also about that big, but in total they number hundreds of thousands (something players often seem to forget when extolling their own importance in places like the rinth).

[betweenford]

Your argument makes no sense in the context of city elves being able to learn desert skills Brokkr.

Anyhow, as for elf tribes who have(and have had) assassins(sometimes even roles given a name within their tribe, damn!!!!) who very much would enter the city, have "assassination" as part of their culture as much as physical attempts at stealing, Lore First, Code Second and whatnot:

Two Moons
Sun Runners
Akei Ta Var
Blackwing
Silt Winds
Dune Stalkers
Red Fang
N'kala, apparently?

That's what, pretty much every desert elf tribe except for the ones that are hard-stanced "nah i basically never visit city locations"?

[Armaddict]

In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth.

This must have been pre-1998, because my very first character was also the one where I learned my assassin could not hide in the wilderness.  That was before subclasses.  Subclasses that went in were 2-3 skills.  Some of them had something like apprentice city-sneak, which allowed them to double up on the stealths, but in order to do it, you had to also effectively take skills that were entirely irrelevant to your main skillset.  Then extended subs came, and it became more common because the skillsets became better.  Not fully amazing, but good enough to use in most cases.  Then the class revision came.  You have the most powerful classes the game has ever had, fully functioning subguilds, where combinations can effectively give you every non-crafting skill you could possibly need...and the big deal is that you need your desert elf to be fully functional in the city as well.

This kind of character design in a roleplaying game is fully flawed, and it would be easily recognizable if this were anything other than a text game.  These models are the games where you go through and do the quests once, and you're done; there is no reason to recreate characters and experiment with combinations, because ultimately they all end up with the same necessities, which seems now to be -everything-.  The only divergence being made is crafter vs non-crafter, and which people you play around.  That hasn't worked well for pretty much any long-lived rpg in history.

So yeah.  It's kind of a problem if out of that incredible amount of 'get almost everything' that we've built, the big deal is that there exists a single role in the game where the place you don't want to go, you're actually not that great in.

ETA:  As far as actual feedback, and pertaining to the above, I'd say take any subguild that confers stealth and cut it down.  No other skills other than the stealth skills.  If you want to be a stalker with backstab, great, but you won't get city stealth with it.  Then have two subguilds that are only sneak and hide, one of wilderness, one of city (I don't mind desert listen and city listen being more common).  That way if you're choosing omni-stealth, you are actually making a tradeoff for it, rather than the purely additive nature of subclasses now.  Make actual choices in character creation, and make them matter; they will dictate where you are weaker, where you are stronger, and your modus operandi for progressing and solving problems.

[Suhuy]

Your argument makes no sense in the context of city elves being able to learn desert skills Brokkr.

[Kestria]

It sounds like elves are about to forget how to elf. Elves are known for being light footed and pick pockety, whether they be city or desert.

I agree that a desert elf wouldnt know how to use the lay out of a city to sneak around and visa versa.. but are their fingers going to suddenly work a different way that they cannot be a pickpocket type? Or stabbing people in the back is going to work different? Are city people going to develop humps on their back that will alter the perception of how backstab works?

And then on the other side of things, limiting city elves to literally be city elves and a single one will never be able to have aspirations to be something more than they are? A grebber, a hunter? It is not like there has been an overflow of city elves being hunters, and taking away the option to be anything hunter orientated seems unneeded and makes the race far less appealing when there are not a huge amount of city elves to begin with because they are already pigeon holed.

Really think things shouldn't be messed with if they are not broken, instead of squashing and limiting players from being able to do what they want with their pretty much mundane characters, why not use that energy to create something more for the world that will interest new and old players alike? Given the hell we, as a community recently went through, we should be adding things in not taking them away.

[wizturbo]

There are other arguments on why city elves should be able to pick up desert based subguilds.  Mostly the fact that the entire PVE 'hunting' game lives outside of cities...  so desert skills have dramatically more utility than city skills for that aspect of the game. 

The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from.  City elves do not.