Tuluk: Why?

[LindseyBalboa]

Following a discussion on Discord, I wanted to ask this question broadly of the playerbase.

What benefit for the game world does Tuluk bring to the game of Armageddon?

I'm not asking if it's fun to play in Tuluk if you're Tuluki, or how much the theme of Tuluk appeals to anyone.
I'm not asking why people like playing in Tuluk, or what their favorite experience was in Tuluk. I'm curious,
as a player that was not here for Tuluk's original existence, what a city based in xenophobia and non-interaction
brings to the world of a game that is 100% based on interaction? What does Tuluk bring positively to the game
outside of Tuluk's walls?

[Tailong]

Conflict with other cities. Strife, externally and internally. Options away from Nak and Luir's and the other hubs. The same benefits as all the other cities or hubs.

[Tranquil]

Speaking as someone who's played a foil to anything Tuluki, who's played a tribal outside Tuluk, who's even played a sponsored role or two in Tuluk..

Not that much, honestly.

I feel like it was kinda left to the dogs after opening (though I will grant there's been some more attention as of late), and though there has been some progress here and there, the plots have never been really too crazy outside of "gather x amount of material to build x thing". I think one of the only times I ever saw Tuluk fight against Allanak was during that war RPT, and as far as I can tell, it wasn't even Allanak that killed their entire army.

The boons for me ATM are that the city generally doesn't have extremely overbearing Templarate and Nobility, meaning that people are slightly less scared to come out and mingle, but the experience in Tuluk definitely feels significantly mild and like 'Arm-lite' compared to places like Luir's or the wilderness.

Another thing I like is some of the docs. Nobles in Tuluk are objectively better to play and to play with then Nobles in Allanak. What I hate about the docs are Lirathan Templars. Going back to the aforementioned sponsored roles, I wasn't able to get any plot that was even slightly against the grain or any degree of 'antagonistic' without it instantly getting shot down by the Lirathan templars. Hence, mild plots only.

[mansa]

High Level Overview:
Tuluk is a competing citystate against Allanak. 

It is the city closest to the Grey Forest, the Grasslands, and the Scrub Plains areas of the game.



Mid-Level Overview:
Society:
Tuluk itself has a society similar to Allanak, with Templars, Nobles, Commoners. 

The personality of the city is different, in that in Tuluk:
a) Magick is destroyed upon sight.
b) Nobles and Commoners are closer entangled.
c) Templars do not outright show their strength and power with blood, but with "taking someone away" to be dealt with quietly.
d) Based on Historical (player run) events, "Outsiders" have been terrorists, murderers, and have caused great harm to the city.

The major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is crime. 
* Allanak has a whole thieves quarter that exist, and Tuluk does not.   
* Tuluk uses stylized artistic expression instead - Bards, Shadow Artists, etc.


Resources:
The area around Tuluk has historically been resource rich, and the Great Merchant Houses, particularly Kadius, have extracted the resources from the area.  Silk, Wood, Gurth / Bahamet shells, Tandu / Carru leathers.

The Grasslands to the east of the city have specific resources only found there - Beyond the Grasslands to the east is a whole other area of the game..  The Grey Forest to the west of the city is the sole source of Agafari and Baobab woods.  South of the city is the Scrublands, which leads to the Red Desert and links those areas of the game.

These areas have a central location to rest and store items in - Tuluk.


A Foil for Allanak:
Muk Utep, as a fantasy leader, has a storyline that leads the game and his battles against the Dragon that destroyed the world. 

Allanak, through the actions of players, has actually taken over Tuluk while Muk Utep was held up in his Pyramid.  The players ran a rebellion plot and kicked out all the outsiders and southerners, and restored their city.

In the Copper War, Tuluk and Allanak met and did battle over a month for some metal.

In the Battle of Tyn Dashra, Tuluk and Allanak met in another battle, which ultimately saw the area between Luir's Outpost and Tuluk - Tyn Dashra, be destroyed and turned into a Volcano.


In-Game Reason for Closure
The in-game reason given for the closure of Tuluk has to do with a splinter between the Unified Order of Templars, and their use of the Listless army, and how the city was starting to be overpowered by the Inquisitors sect.

c.1629 (Year 12 Age 22)
...Meanwhile, in Tuluk, Tuluk's authorities begin restricting access to certain areas of the city for the safety of its citizens. Non-citizens are restricted to an area known as the Public Quarter, a region encompassing Freil's Rest, the Red Sun Commons, the Tribal Market, and the holdings of the Great Merchant Houses.

In a separate announcement that emerges from a recent meeting of the Triumvirate, shadow artistry is reformed under a new expansion of Templarate power.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.


In-Game Reason for Reopening of Tuluk
Tuluk reopened in an event to fight against an Allanaki Army that invaded the Grey Forest.


Changes after the Reopening of Tuluk
In reopening the Citystate, it inherited it's past history, rather than change to be something completely different.  Some things have changed from before the closure to now, which were playability issues of the past, and some things about how Tuluk operates from the gates re-opening until now have also changed.

For example:
When Tuluk reopened, non-citizens could only visit the Red Sun Commons.
There was no Greater Merchant House presence or shops.
There was no T'zai Byn Mercenaries.

And now:
Through player intervention, the T'zai Byn had a campsite outside the city, which eventually became a reopening of the Mercenary Compound
Through player intervention, a Pavilion was set up with Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac merchants.
The Nenyuk Bank moved to the Red Sun Commons from the Warrens
Wagons can now enter the Red Sun Commons and the rest of the city.
The Soldiers that block the movement of non-citizens have moved to allow "outsiders" access into (some of) the Warrens.
Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr have a Compound in the Warrens.


Tuluk almost been opened for 18 months, and it has had many changes to it.  I think it will continue to have changes to it as time goes on, as we try and polish it up to be more enjoyable.

[Kavrick]

Ironically, as someone who actually plays Tulukis fairly often, I'm not really a big fan of what it brings to the game. What I do like is the northlands, the northlands is an infinitely more interesting place to explore than the Vrun, with a far bigger variety of mobs, areas, secrets and materials.

I understand that tuluk is supposed to be a 'foil' for allanak, but I would actually like to ask how often it even comes up. Visiting tuluk as an outsider has deliberately been made as painful as possible, with no access to the water seller, market street or 3 of the 4gates, in case you wished to hunt out of Tuluk. All of the templars being mindworms also massively detracks from ever trying to go to Tuluk in order to stir things, gather information or otherwise be that 'foil'. Both times I attempted to go to Tuluk to do sneaky stuff, I was immediately fucked with with mindworms as far as I can tell.

Many people will not agree with me and that's fine, but I don't think the way Tuluk splits the playerbase in half is particularly great for the game. But I dont see Tuluk's closure ever happening or anything along those lines. I do think Tuluk is in major need of incentivizing people actually visiting because it kinda sucks from both sides. If you're playing a Tuluki, the only way to see new people is to go down to Luir's. If you're playing a Non-Tuluki, going to Tuluk is a massive chore and generally not particularly enjoyable.

Also one thing I've noticed that happens is that when massive amounts of death/storage happens in one city, the other city becomes more populated. Which sounds good in theory, but also leads to anyone who's still playing in the other city kinda left behind. I just simply do not believe the game has enough numbers to have two entire city-states. I know the count argument is usually 'choice is always good' but I dont particularly agree, I think quality is far more important than quantity, especially with the lack of features to find other players, something which has been discussed since I stared playing Arm.

[LindseyBalboa]

Changes after the Reopening of Tuluk
In reopening the Citystate, it inherited it's past history, rather than change to be something completely different.  Some things have changed from before the closure to now, which were playability issues of the past, and some things about how Tuluk operates from the gates re-opening until now have also changed.

For example:
When Tuluk reopened, non-citizens could only visit the Red Sun Commons.
There was no Greater Merchant House presence or shops.
There was no T'zai Byn Mercenaries.

And now:
Through player intervention, the T'zai Byn had a campsite outside the city, which eventually became a reopening of the Mercenary Compound
Through player intervention, a Pavilion was set up with Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac merchants.
The Nenyuk Bank moved to the Red Sun Commons from the Warrens
Wagons can now enter the Red Sun Commons and the rest of the city.
The Soldiers that block the movement of non-citizens have moved to allow "outsiders" access into (some of) the Warrens.
Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr have a Compound in the Warrens.


Tuluk almost been opened for 18 months, and it has had many changes to it.  I think it will continue to have changes to it as time goes on, as we try and polish it up to be more enjoyable.

I wasn't going to respond to anything for a while, as I'm interested in seeing opinions that are not mine, but I want to dig in here for a second because there was so much history written out.

As I'm reading it: In 18 months, Tuluk's contributions to the gameworld have been slightly more access into the city that thematically ignores and punishes people that try to interact with?

I am not bashing any player efforts, but I don't understand how that is beneficial for Armageddon. I'm sure it's fun, and I'm sure there was great roleplay; but from what I can tell half that player effort anywhere else in the game would have resulted in tangible results able to be seen and experienced and roleplayed about by most of the game.

To contrast, every other city and almost every tribe relies on people gathering socially to trade, entering cities to sell things, or leaving cities/tribes to get things to trade via grebbing or raiding, and then sell.

Keeping in mind most of what I know about Tuluk is going to be learned in this thread or is known from Discord/help files, let me rephrase the question: In contrast to what the playerbase and game world bring to Tuluk, what does Tuluk bring to the game world that makes it better as a game?

(EDIT: there isn't an end goal with this line of questioning, ie, hoping to close Tuluk or something. If anything, I'm hopeful that there are things Tuluk brings to the rest of the game that can be expanded upon.)

[Aruven]

Tuluk is the counter-weight both in story arc and roleplay to Allanak, without which, the gameworld literally doesn't make sense largely.

It brings conflict, roleplay, and intrigue to the larger story and many smaller ones.

It provides the roleplay and trade for the tribal clans between the two city-states. It provides a wide arc of roleplay and business for the merchant clan players.

It provides alternative roleplay styles to players who want a city oriented / new type of experience after they've rolled into Allanak five times in a row.

[Inks]

The templars makes it extremely boring to play for me, it's basically play a loyalist or die. Not sure if it is any better now but I found the RP a little one dimensional there, even if the emotes were more flowery.

That being said I would play there if I wanted a relaxed experience with less magickers.

[Bloodpaint]

Through player intervention, the T'zai Byn had a campsite outside the city, which eventually became a reopening of the Mercenary Compound

[ShaiHulud]

High Level Overview:
Tuluk is a competing citystate against Allanak. 

It is the city closest to the Grey Forest, the Grasslands, and the Scrub Plains areas of the game.



Mid-Level Overview:
Society:
Tuluk itself has a society similar to Allanak, with Templars, Nobles, Commoners. 

The personality of the city is different, in that in Tuluk:
a) Magick is destroyed upon sight.
b) Nobles and Commoners are closer entangled.
c) Templars do not outright show their strength and power with blood, but with "taking someone away" to be dealt with quietly.
d) Based on Historical (player run) events, "Outsiders" have been terrorists, murderers, and have caused great harm to the city.

The major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is crime. 
* Allanak has a whole thieves quarter that exist, and Tuluk does not.   
* Tuluk uses stylized artistic expression instead - Bards, Shadow Artists, etc.


Resources:
The area around Tuluk has historically been resource rich, and the Great Merchant Houses, particularly Kadius, have extracted the resources from the area.  Silk, Wood, Gurth / Bahamet shells, Tandu / Carru leathers.

The Grasslands to the east of the city have specific resources only found there - Beyond the Grasslands to the east is a whole other area of the game..  The Grey Forest to the west of the city is the sole source of Agafari and Baobab woods.  South of the city is the Scrublands, which leads to the Red Desert and links those areas of the game.

These areas have a central location to rest and store items in - Tuluk.


A Foil for Allanak:
Muk Utep, as a fantasy leader, has a storyline that leads the game and his battles against the Dragon that destroyed the world. 

Allanak, through the actions of players, has actually taken over Tuluk while Muk Utep was held up in his Pyramid.  The players ran a rebellion plot and kicked out all the outsiders and southerners, and restored their city.

In the Copper War, Tuluk and Allanak met and did battle over a month for some metal.

In the Battle of Tyn Dashra, Tuluk and Allanak met in another battle, which ultimately saw the area between Luir's Outpost and Tuluk - Tyn Dashra, be destroyed and turned into a Volcano.


In-Game Reason for Closure
The in-game reason given for the closure of Tuluk has to do with a splinter between the Unified Order of Templars, and their use of the Listless army, and how the city was starting to be overpowered by the Inquisitors sect.

c.1629 (Year 12 Age 22)
...Meanwhile, in Tuluk, Tuluk's authorities begin restricting access to certain areas of the city for the safety of its citizens. Non-citizens are restricted to an area known as the Public Quarter, a region encompassing Freil's Rest, the Red Sun Commons, the Tribal Market, and the holdings of the Great Merchant Houses.

In a separate announcement that emerges from a recent meeting of the Triumvirate, shadow artistry is reformed under a new expansion of Templarate power.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.


In-Game Reason for Reopening of Tuluk
Tuluk reopened in an event to fight against an Allanaki Army that invaded the Grey Forest.


Changes after the Reopening of Tuluk
In reopening the Citystate, it inherited it's past history, rather than change to be something completely different.  Some things have changed from before the closure to now, which were playability issues of the past, and some things about how Tuluk operates from the gates re-opening until now have also changed.

For example:
When Tuluk reopened, non-citizens could only visit the Red Sun Commons.
There was no Greater Merchant House presence or shops.
There was no T'zai Byn Mercenaries.

And now:
Through player intervention, the T'zai Byn had a campsite outside the city, which eventually became a reopening of the Mercenary Compound
Through player intervention, a Pavilion was set up with Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac merchants.
The Nenyuk Bank moved to the Red Sun Commons from the Warrens
Wagons can now enter the Red Sun Commons and the rest of the city.
The Soldiers that block the movement of non-citizens have moved to allow "outsiders" access into (some of) the Warrens.
Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr have a Compound in the Warrens.


Tuluk almost been opened for 18 months, and it has had many changes to it.  I think it will continue to have changes to it as time goes on, as we try and polish it up to be more enjoyable.

[Pariah]

I feel like Tuluk is only really desireable because of the location, as they say, location location location.

It could be burned to the ground, every building destroyed and if they built something else in the relative area people would still play there.  I don't think the magick-less-adjacency is really all that much of a draw.

If I'm honest, I would probably play EVERY single character there for easy mode training, skilling up, etc.  The downside is that I tend to be a traveller once I get a little beefy character/skill wise.  And with the tattoos of Tuluk and how the south reacts to Tuluki's sometimes, it's not worth the effort.  You're better to be a southerner who just occasionally visits Tuluk than vice versa.

So does Tuluk have a place in the world, absolutely, it's got a prime real estate PLACE in the world.  Wood, herbs, softer critters, more variety of critters, less harsh environments that don't cause you to drink constantly like the deserts of the surrounding areas.

Plus all the artsy fartsy stuff some people enjoy. (I shudder when I remember the bardic circle or whatever it was called pre-closure as I found it super cringe 90% of the time with their fancy little members only tiffany bracelets).

A lot of the stuff Mansa mentions is spot on.  I will say that I wish there were more HRPTS involved with the conflict that wasn't just dogpiles of northern and southern folks killing each others PCs.  But that's in my opinion a problem game wide, very little plots seem to end in more than killing one another when it comes to conflict, they might be slow boil, take RL months or years to come to fruition, but it's always a murder thing.

I wish we had territory that was malleable between the two city states, like Tuluk controls X and Allanak could capture Y, sure it would have murder and all that as part of it, but it would be substantial moreso than, Look at all the bodies!

If you look at the stuff mansa listed from game lore, the Copper war was decades ago RL, in fact the only thing I even remember was the volcano one and I thought that had more to do with the end of the world Armageddon Reborn debacle, but I'll trust Mansa's recollection of it, as his GDB-FU is far superior to mine.

[Down Under]

Much like Toussaint in Witcher 3, I find that Tuluk offers a different flavor to the game that is otherwise lacking. It is steeped in traditions that are foreign and boggling to outsiders, caste systems that are difficult to understand unless you are from it. Much like Geralt when he travels to Toussaint, he finds their pomp and circumstance tiring and opaque, but for those of Toussaint, it is part of their every day life and system of belief.

Though Tuluk gets a rap for being xenophobic that is well placed, I would posit that Allanak is just as xenophobic when it comes to Northerners, if not moreso. Southerners, Tribals, and so on, are sanctioned and allowed within Tuluk - Just not all of Tuluk. And that area has expanded, since it re opened.

By comparison, Northerners travel to Allanak incognito, out of fear they will be scooped up and executed simply for having star tattoos on their hands.

So, while the platitudes are common and Tuluk is often stereotyped as being the 'tree hugging, bunny loving area of the world', I find my characters can live longer lives without the constant fart jokes, pickup lines, and lightning bolts shooting out of people's butts. It's just a different flavor, for a different kind of player, or just a different kind of PC really.

[Tranquil]

Though Tuluk gets a rap for being xenophobic that is well placed, I would posit that Allanak is just as xenophobic when it comes to Northerners, if not moreso. Southerners, Tribals, and so on, are sanctioned and allowed within Tuluk - Just not all of Tuluk. And that area has expanded, since it re opened.

By comparison, Northerners travel to Allanak incognito, out of fear they will be scooped up and executed simply for having star tattoos on their hands.

To be fair, Allanaki Templars are not Lirathan Templars, that can instantly tell you are Northerner or doing anything nefarious in Allanak without directly seeing it most times.

I think that's my biggest, #1 issue with Tuluk - Lirathan Templars. The inability to do anything nefarious because someone thought giving mind reading powers to the Judge Dredd's of the City was a good idea.

In most other ways I prefer Tuluk, but that part really screws with the experience no matter how you put it.

[Armaddict]

My personal opinion:  Very little.
My personal opinion, with consideration: More players.

I dislike Tuluk.  I dislike its theme, I dislike playing in it, I dislike most things about it.  But there are players who enjoy it more than Allanak for various reasons, and closure of Tuluk cost us some of those players.  I have all sorts of ideas as to alternative reasons for that, but in the end, it came down to people wanting the option to play there.

If this discord conversation was in terms of player consolidation, I'd strongly suggest you focus less on geographical location and more on dispersion; I'm a lot more concerned with consolidation as far as clan vs indy than I am north vs south.  I'm a lot more concerned with people avoiding smaller areas of the game meant to support more people in order to prefer large expanses meant for a lot less proximity with other players.

Cities and outposts are generally fine.  Preference of spending 75% of your time alone or with one other person far away from unconscious or involuntary involvement in 'things going on' is an indication of something twisted out of place.

[H182]

I love Tuluk, the loyalist culture, the diversity, the art, the way the templars are different
to the south and the underlaying element of fear a constant presence, yet the fear itself
fundamentally different to that of Allanaks.

Tuluk has a very rich atmosphere that is unique in itself.

And that is what it brings : an unique atmosphere specific to Tuluk  where players can choose
to play if they want to.

Everyone has a niche and a favorite place they like to play in. Everyone has a favorite character
trope / clan they like to play in.

In the end what matters is having a very diverse setting which allows many various players to find
a place they feel comfortable and happy to roleplay in, and Tuluk happens to be that to some as much
as the Byn / Allanak / Luirs is to others.

That is what Tuluk is. A culture where some feel comfortable, and happy to play in and option
for those who want to.

[MarshallDFX]

Tuluk totally works on me OOC and IC. I hate it. It is the other. I assume it is the cause of everything wrong.  I know nothing at all about it.

[Pariah]

I'm not a huge Tuluk (The city fan) but reading through this thread and discord conversations about it.  Hey, I get it, some people love it.

That alone in my mind is good enough reason to keep it going.

Think of it this way, I hate country music, most the people I know hate country music, but there is a shitload of people who love country music, different strokes for different folks.

[Molten Heart]

Some thoughts on why Tuluk...
   

• Tuluk is an alternative civilization hub that provides basic services that most people need. It is a location that realistically expects to have other/different players to roleplay with.
     
• It provides a civilized place to go if you want to lay low from people in Allanak. For example, if a junior merchant attracts the wrong kind of attention, they might be sent to Tuluk by their merchant house, a la The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.
• Tuluk provides a break in roleplay. If a player loses a 20-month-old character based in Allanak and knows a lot of secrets that others don't, it's easier to start anew in a fresh environment like Tuluk.
• Tuluk creates distance between players, making it easier to keep secrets and avoid the speed of information flow through telepathy in the game.
• The distance between Tuluk and Allanak facilitates extended long-distance conflict, including city-state conflict, that can lead to more opportunities for story growth and conflict.
• Conflict in Tuluk makes for better roleplay since most conflict, especially with Templars and other authorities, can quickly be resolved in Allanak due to its smaller size/contained area.

However, Tuluk does have some problems, which is why a lot of people don't like it. Primarily, it has such a dynamic history and always seems to be changing, unlike Allanak, where the theme has always been the same. Tuluk suffers from a kind of schizophrenia where players and staff continually have different interpretations of what Tuluk is, or what it means to be Tuluki. I suspect this is because of the many changes and not having enough time for a theme to "sink in" to the player base, whereas this isn't a problem in Allanak because Allanak has thematically mostly been the same since the creation of the game.

[Gunnerblaster]

I think Tuluk has looked like Allanak 2.0 for long enough.

By this time, the Templarate would have begun to try and bring back what Tuluk used to look like instead of leaving it in such a trashy state.

Additionally, the economy needs a serious overhaul. It's too imbalanced and people are just bypassing Tuluk to use Morin's. As Tuluk re-opened, the shops that sprang up in Morin's during the closure would have moved back into the city, to re-establish themselves.

Empty out Morrins and give people a reason to go to Tuluk for the shops. The herb shop, in Tuluk, being nearly empty is a joke. The city surrounded by herbs and wildlife can't afford to stock it's own herb shop.

[Aruven]

Has anyone started the 'Allanak, Why?' Thread yet?

[Riev]

Cenyr: Why?

[Brytta Léofa]

don't you dare touch Cenyr you bustards

[Armaddict]

Has anyone started the 'Allanak, Why?' Thread yet?

*Points and laughs at the Tuluki*

[mansa]

Has anyone started the 'Allanak, Why?' Thread yet?

13 threads below this one:
The Allanak Problem -> https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56084.0.html

[Brokkr]

To be clear, Lirathans are gone.  In more than just name only.

[Ygg]

To be clear, Lirathans are gone.  In more than just name only.

I'm pretty sure when players here use the term Lirathan Templar they're not referring to actual Lirathan Templars of yesteryear (who, since not retconned, still exist as part of the lore and history of the game). They're drawing a parallel between then and now and illustrating that some of the same concerns exist.

[Inks]

Yeah what Brokkr is hinting at is that now is lirathan class is gone entirely, and when I played a skullduggery type there it took them at least a month (IG) to kill him. Which isn't really long but I also didn't play particularly smart.

Back in the day they would rek you day 1 if they didn't like the double spacing in your background or something. And they always had two HG bodyguards each.

There is definately more opportunity there than there was...but just don't get too attached to your character. From my play years back Tulukis just loved to spy on each other as a hobby. It was wild the questions random people ask you.

[FamousAmos]

Whats the difference between Lirathan and the current Templars, then?

[Ygg]

Yeah what Brokkr is hinting at is that now is lirathan class is gone entirely

Right and though perhaps I'm misreading the tone of others I suspect they all know Lirathans are technically no more. By referring to present day Tuluki templars as Lirathans (used here as a pejorative) they're comparing a problem of yesteryear with today. Namely, that you can't be sure that templars (let's call them Lirathans, just for kicks) aren't somehow aware of things. Maybe they know what you're thinking, maybe they know where you are, maybe they're even watching you from far away. Who knows what kind of powers they have! And what comes with that uncertainty, for some, is a reminder of years past. There's no IC, or for that matter OOC, assurance this won't happen again.

For my part, I like Tuluk. I think both its closure and IC explanation for its closure were weak as hell, but (to my surprise) I love the IC explanation behind how it reopened and the alterations that have been made to make it more playable. I like the beat uppness of the place and the clear struggle to rebuild. I even like the PCs I've played with there and that includes the templars. But for what it's worth I have had two separate Northern templars (now over a year ago) reveal some of their abilities to me, presumably as a display of power. Personally, I'd rather not have seen that as I don't want to know what they can do. Why? Because everything that has already been said of Lirathans back in the day.

[Wday]

Tuluk seems to be the background you have to play which pushes others off from wanting to there.  Too much of a come here let us be shitty acting and in a few small shops in a tight area and go type play.

[Lotion]

I like Tuluk because I can talk to a noble without triggering abuse related trauma

[mansa]

Whats the difference between Lirathan and the current Templars, then?

It's a different class, with different skills and abilities.

You can see here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46483.0.html
and here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47011.0.html
and here:
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Utep%20Sun%20Clan

That the Lirathan Order and the Jihaen Order were combined into a new 'Unified Order'.

From the Helpfile -> There are now templar sects:
SECT OF THE FULL MOON - Not available to Players
SECT OF THE HALF MOON - Tuluk Templars Players
SECT OF THE CRESCENT MOON - Tuluk Nobles Players who became promoted to Templars

[Ygg]

It's a different class, with different skills and abilities.

What's being argued is that, yes, it's a different class with a different skill tree, but that there's still some overlap (just as different combat classes have some overlap in the skills they possess too). It's precisely that overlap which begs the question: what really is the difference?

If my IC experience of not one but two Northern templars flaunting their powers is anything to go by, then the answer is: not much. The same concerns as before still exist. You can say they aren't technically Lirathans but that's really irrelevant to the discussion and strikes me as an attempt to obfuscate the issue. It's like saying "thieves can steal things" and you go "no, pickpockets and burglars were removed from game." Yeah, doesn't mean there aren't any thieves anymore.

All that said, I still like Tuluk. I like what it's turned in to. I just don't think templars of either city-state should have certain powers when it makes more sense to use underlings that can do such things or reserve said powers to high ranking NPCs who aren't part of the day to day game world.

[Riev]

Admittedly, I feel like Tuluk is still too big with a lot of what feels like 'empty space'. The western half of the city is large enough without including the entire eastern half (Ivory/Nobles and further).

Despite its size, there are also 3 bars/taverns within a 10-room walk from one another and two of them are citizen-only. It is difficult to determine where you should go to find that social interaction you want, without standing at a crossroads with guard-code to stop spamwalkers.

[LindseyBalboa]

This seems to have finished up for a bit so I wanted to compile the pros and cons I'm seeing. Also one pro for Tuluk I hadn't thought of was that the PCs there are there in the city - they may not interact with the world outside the walls as much as Allanaki PCs, but they're there if people can visit them. Unlike in Allanak, where the PCs generally (present day) home base but mostly leave to do things - leaving it emptier. The impression I have is Tuluki players like playing in Tuluk more than Allanaki players like playing in Allanak. Could be a question for "Allanak, Why?"

Pros--
Lack of mages
Interaction with nobles isn't scary
Theme of Tuluk (art, bards, in general)
Potential for worldwide conflict
More resources/things to do outside the walls
Possibility for player-led changes feels real
No Allanaki templars
Players may stay and play bc they like Tuluk as their Arm experience

Cons--
Too big
Templars not fun/conducive to roleplaying game bc abilities.
Non-citizens can't hobknob easily with citizens
Confusing layout, 3 bars but 2 for citizens, still a mess
Lack of staff-led plots
Feels unloved, empty
It's not fun or easy to visit as a non-citizen
PC population worry (less Tuluk-only, more game-wide re: 2 city states.)

After reading so many responses, my personal opinion has changed and I don't think Tuluk is necessarily a mini game for people to fuck off to when they don't want to play actual Armageddon.

It feels like there's a very general agreement on how Tuluk could be made to be much more enjoyable.

For instance, the solution to "non citizens can't easily visit and mingle" (I don't think anyone is asking for a pleasant, easy time. Just interaction) could also be the solution to "it feels empty" and "there are 3 bars and 2 non-citizens can't visit, all by each other" and "the map is confusing" and "it hasn't been cleaned up yet."

"Lack of staff attention and action" con and "potential for PC-driven opportunities and world changes" pro indicate that staff and Tuluki-interested players should regroup and figure out the starting point for Tuluki actions. This indicator reads to me that it is very likely that PCs are waiting for staff to start things off and staff is waiting for PCs to start things off.

Hopefully this thread helped gather thoughts on Tuluk and can be used to keep improving it as a city on its own and as a part of the rest of the interactive game world.

[Ygg]

All three bars are within very close proximity to one another. One is fairly exclusively for the upper crust, one for the common class, and one for everyone (foreigners included). If you don't see anyone in one tavern it takes less time to check out the others than a walk from Allanak's Gaj to Red's Tavern. I think that's actually a very reasonable arrangement. They might not all be in use regularly, but they're there for the occasion as needed. By and large, the foreigner-permitting tavern is where you'll find people. Think of that as your go-to, 90% of the time watering hole for the city.

As to Tuluk's alleged size, the majority of Tuluk is actually very compact. Most of the extra roads that seem to go on forever don't get much use and aren't connected to anything unless you're going somewhere very specific, so you may as well pretend they aren't even there. Effectively, for day to day purposes, the majority of what you'll use is small. But I'm glad there's extra space and things to explore for when the occasion warrants it. It's a vast empire, after all, not a town. And this fact by no means spreads the playerbase out too thin. So on the contrary to what's been said by others, I find Tuluk fairly well consolidated.

Lastly, I like that Tuluk has an area off limits to non-citizens. It makes the area elite, even if most of what's cordoned off is essentially a ghetto. You still have things to do as a non-citizen, while getting definite perks if you are one.

[mansa]

All three bars are within very close proximity to one another. One is fairly exclusively for the upper crust, one for the common class, and one for everyone (foreigners included). If you don't see anyone in one tavern it takes less time to check out the others than a walk from Allanak's Gaj to Red's Tavern. I think that's actually a very reasonable arrangement. They might not all be in use regularly, but they're there for the occasion as needed. By and large, the foreigner-permitting tavern is where you'll find people. Think of that as your go-to, 90% of the time watering hole for the city.

As to Tuluk's alleged size, the majority of Tuluk is actually very compact. Most of the extra roads that seem to go on forever don't get much use and aren't connected to anything unless you're going somewhere very specific, so you may as well pretend they aren't even there. Effectively, for day to day purposes, the majority of what you'll use is small. But I'm glad there's extra space and things to explore for when the occasion warrants it. It's a vast empire, after all, not a town. And this fact by no means spreads the playerbase out too thin. So on the contrary to what's been said by others, I find Tuluk fairly well consolidated.

Lastly, I like that Tuluk has an area off limits to non-citizens. It makes the area elite, even if most of what's cordoned off is essentially a ghetto. You still have things to do as a non-citizen, while getting definite perks if you are one.

Just a small correction.  There's four Taverns in Tuluk - two of them are available to everyone, and two are citizenship-only.  There isn't an upper crust tavern in Tuluk - the Cormani Carru has an elven bartender (eww) and the Sun King's Sanctuary has echoes of an elf smoking spice in a corner, a half-giant child playing with toys, a half-elf stealing a bottle of wine from the bar, the legion toasting to the Sun King, and a table being cleaned off for one of the templars.  The tavern everyone forgets is the one that is in the Vineyard - and it is available to be "owned" by the players.

[Ygg]

I didn't forget the one in the vineyard, I simply didn't include it because I didn't feel it worth mentioning. It's given about as much use as Allanak's Silver Ginka. For practical, day to day purposes, there are three main taverns in Tuluk, none of which are very far from one another nor do they somehow detract from the playerbase or spread it out by existing. Each serves a purpose and each is close enough that you can quickly hop from one to the other in order to see who's around.

[Trevalyan]

The tavern everyone forgets is the one that is in the Vineyard - and it is available to be "owned" by the players.

Available may currently be the wrong word. It gets considerable use as a party destination, so it's quite possible to see people there. Particularly if you want to have the non-normie experience as a tourist.

[Fredd]

Tuluk allows for a different feel to city roleplay. It's a city where literally no-one says what they mean. In Allanak, if someone doesn't like you, they are probably adding a bunch of explatives when they talk to you, or overtly threatening you.

In tuluk, you can't be sure who wants you dead. It's very focused on that "everyone is wearing a mask" feel.

The political play in both cities feels COMPLETELY different. Complete night and day.

I remember one of my favorite political plays in new tuluk was A Tenneshi showing up to a Dasari event, asking to speak, and more or less taking credit for the whole thing. the speach that was given, the planned out use of npc's. it was *chefs kiss*

I remember one of my favorite political plays in recentish Allanak. I was a Kuraci dealer that brought an Elf whore down to Nak. Figured why not make some coins off the skinnies right?
A noble and a templar made it their personal mission to bully her/me. Complained about every step she took, had her beat, had me remove one of her fingers, ect ect. While I (stupidly prolly) tried to protect my employee.

Both of those were fun for me. But both of those have WILDLY different feels. This difference is, in itself, enough to answer the question posed by OP IMO.