Tuluk: Why?

[Ygg]

To be clear, Lirathans are gone.  In more than just name only.

I'm pretty sure when players here use the term Lirathan Templar they're not referring to actual Lirathan Templars of yesteryear (who, since not retconned, still exist as part of the lore and history of the game). They're drawing a parallel between then and now and illustrating that some of the same concerns exist.

[Inks]

Yeah what Brokkr is hinting at is that now is lirathan class is gone entirely, and when I played a skullduggery type there it took them at least a month (IG) to kill him. Which isn't really long but I also didn't play particularly smart.

Back in the day they would rek you day 1 if they didn't like the double spacing in your background or something. And they always had two HG bodyguards each.

There is definately more opportunity there than there was...but just don't get too attached to your character. From my play years back Tulukis just loved to spy on each other as a hobby. It was wild the questions random people ask you.

[FamousAmos]

Whats the difference between Lirathan and the current Templars, then?

[Ygg]

Yeah what Brokkr is hinting at is that now is lirathan class is gone entirely

Right and though perhaps I'm misreading the tone of others I suspect they all know Lirathans are technically no more. By referring to present day Tuluki templars as Lirathans (used here as a pejorative) they're comparing a problem of yesteryear with today. Namely, that you can't be sure that templars (let's call them Lirathans, just for kicks) aren't somehow aware of things. Maybe they know what you're thinking, maybe they know where you are, maybe they're even watching you from far away. Who knows what kind of powers they have! And what comes with that uncertainty, for some, is a reminder of years past. There's no IC, or for that matter OOC, assurance this won't happen again.

For my part, I like Tuluk. I think both its closure and IC explanation for its closure were weak as hell, but (to my surprise) I love the IC explanation behind how it reopened and the alterations that have been made to make it more playable. I like the beat uppness of the place and the clear struggle to rebuild. I even like the PCs I've played with there and that includes the templars. But for what it's worth I have had two separate Northern templars (now over a year ago) reveal some of their abilities to me, presumably as a display of power. Personally, I'd rather not have seen that as I don't want to know what they can do. Why? Because everything that has already been said of Lirathans back in the day.

[Wday]

Tuluk seems to be the background you have to play which pushes others off from wanting to there.  Too much of a come here let us be shitty acting and in a few small shops in a tight area and go type play.

[Lotion]

I like Tuluk because I can talk to a noble without triggering abuse related trauma

[mansa]

Whats the difference between Lirathan and the current Templars, then?

It's a different class, with different skills and abilities.

You can see here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46483.0.html
and here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47011.0.html
and here:
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Utep%20Sun%20Clan

That the Lirathan Order and the Jihaen Order were combined into a new 'Unified Order'.

From the Helpfile -> There are now templar sects:
SECT OF THE FULL MOON - Not available to Players
SECT OF THE HALF MOON - Tuluk Templars Players
SECT OF THE CRESCENT MOON - Tuluk Nobles Players who became promoted to Templars

[Ygg]

It's a different class, with different skills and abilities.

What's being argued is that, yes, it's a different class with a different skill tree, but that there's still some overlap (just as different combat classes have some overlap in the skills they possess too). It's precisely that overlap which begs the question: what really is the difference?

If my IC experience of not one but two Northern templars flaunting their powers is anything to go by, then the answer is: not much. The same concerns as before still exist. You can say they aren't technically Lirathans but that's really irrelevant to the discussion and strikes me as an attempt to obfuscate the issue. It's like saying "thieves can steal things" and you go "no, pickpockets and burglars were removed from game." Yeah, doesn't mean there aren't any thieves anymore.

All that said, I still like Tuluk. I like what it's turned in to. I just don't think templars of either city-state should have certain powers when it makes more sense to use underlings that can do such things or reserve said powers to high ranking NPCs who aren't part of the day to day game world.

[Riev]

Admittedly, I feel like Tuluk is still too big with a lot of what feels like 'empty space'. The western half of the city is large enough without including the entire eastern half (Ivory/Nobles and further).

Despite its size, there are also 3 bars/taverns within a 10-room walk from one another and two of them are citizen-only. It is difficult to determine where you should go to find that social interaction you want, without standing at a crossroads with guard-code to stop spamwalkers.

[LindseyBalboa]

This seems to have finished up for a bit so I wanted to compile the pros and cons I'm seeing. Also one pro for Tuluk I hadn't thought of was that the PCs there are there in the city - they may not interact with the world outside the walls as much as Allanaki PCs, but they're there if people can visit them. Unlike in Allanak, where the PCs generally (present day) home base but mostly leave to do things - leaving it emptier. The impression I have is Tuluki players like playing in Tuluk more than Allanaki players like playing in Allanak. Could be a question for "Allanak, Why?"

Pros--
Lack of mages
Interaction with nobles isn't scary
Theme of Tuluk (art, bards, in general)
Potential for worldwide conflict
More resources/things to do outside the walls
Possibility for player-led changes feels real
No Allanaki templars
Players may stay and play bc they like Tuluk as their Arm experience

Cons--
Too big
Templars not fun/conducive to roleplaying game bc abilities.
Non-citizens can't hobknob easily with citizens
Confusing layout, 3 bars but 2 for citizens, still a mess
Lack of staff-led plots
Feels unloved, empty
It's not fun or easy to visit as a non-citizen
PC population worry (less Tuluk-only, more game-wide re: 2 city states.)

After reading so many responses, my personal opinion has changed and I don't think Tuluk is necessarily a mini game for people to fuck off to when they don't want to play actual Armageddon.

It feels like there's a very general agreement on how Tuluk could be made to be much more enjoyable.

For instance, the solution to "non citizens can't easily visit and mingle" (I don't think anyone is asking for a pleasant, easy time. Just interaction) could also be the solution to "it feels empty" and "there are 3 bars and 2 non-citizens can't visit, all by each other" and "the map is confusing" and "it hasn't been cleaned up yet."

"Lack of staff attention and action" con and "potential for PC-driven opportunities and world changes" pro indicate that staff and Tuluki-interested players should regroup and figure out the starting point for Tuluki actions. This indicator reads to me that it is very likely that PCs are waiting for staff to start things off and staff is waiting for PCs to start things off.

Hopefully this thread helped gather thoughts on Tuluk and can be used to keep improving it as a city on its own and as a part of the rest of the interactive game world.

[Ygg]

All three bars are within very close proximity to one another. One is fairly exclusively for the upper crust, one for the common class, and one for everyone (foreigners included). If you don't see anyone in one tavern it takes less time to check out the others than a walk from Allanak's Gaj to Red's Tavern. I think that's actually a very reasonable arrangement. They might not all be in use regularly, but they're there for the occasion as needed. By and large, the foreigner-permitting tavern is where you'll find people. Think of that as your go-to, 90% of the time watering hole for the city.

As to Tuluk's alleged size, the majority of Tuluk is actually very compact. Most of the extra roads that seem to go on forever don't get much use and aren't connected to anything unless you're going somewhere very specific, so you may as well pretend they aren't even there. Effectively, for day to day purposes, the majority of what you'll use is small. But I'm glad there's extra space and things to explore for when the occasion warrants it. It's a vast empire, after all, not a town. And this fact by no means spreads the playerbase out too thin. So on the contrary to what's been said by others, I find Tuluk fairly well consolidated.

Lastly, I like that Tuluk has an area off limits to non-citizens. It makes the area elite, even if most of what's cordoned off is essentially a ghetto. You still have things to do as a non-citizen, while getting definite perks if you are one.

[mansa]

All three bars are within very close proximity to one another. One is fairly exclusively for the upper crust, one for the common class, and one for everyone (foreigners included). If you don't see anyone in one tavern it takes less time to check out the others than a walk from Allanak's Gaj to Red's Tavern. I think that's actually a very reasonable arrangement. They might not all be in use regularly, but they're there for the occasion as needed. By and large, the foreigner-permitting tavern is where you'll find people. Think of that as your go-to, 90% of the time watering hole for the city.

As to Tuluk's alleged size, the majority of Tuluk is actually very compact. Most of the extra roads that seem to go on forever don't get much use and aren't connected to anything unless you're going somewhere very specific, so you may as well pretend they aren't even there. Effectively, for day to day purposes, the majority of what you'll use is small. But I'm glad there's extra space and things to explore for when the occasion warrants it. It's a vast empire, after all, not a town. And this fact by no means spreads the playerbase out too thin. So on the contrary to what's been said by others, I find Tuluk fairly well consolidated.

Lastly, I like that Tuluk has an area off limits to non-citizens. It makes the area elite, even if most of what's cordoned off is essentially a ghetto. You still have things to do as a non-citizen, while getting definite perks if you are one.

Just a small correction.  There's four Taverns in Tuluk - two of them are available to everyone, and two are citizenship-only.  There isn't an upper crust tavern in Tuluk - the Cormani Carru has an elven bartender (eww) and the Sun King's Sanctuary has echoes of an elf smoking spice in a corner, a half-giant child playing with toys, a half-elf stealing a bottle of wine from the bar, the legion toasting to the Sun King, and a table being cleaned off for one of the templars.  The tavern everyone forgets is the one that is in the Vineyard - and it is available to be "owned" by the players.

[Ygg]

I didn't forget the one in the vineyard, I simply didn't include it because I didn't feel it worth mentioning. It's given about as much use as Allanak's Silver Ginka. For practical, day to day purposes, there are three main taverns in Tuluk, none of which are very far from one another nor do they somehow detract from the playerbase or spread it out by existing. Each serves a purpose and each is close enough that you can quickly hop from one to the other in order to see who's around.

[Trevalyan]

The tavern everyone forgets is the one that is in the Vineyard - and it is available to be "owned" by the players.

Available may currently be the wrong word. It gets considerable use as a party destination, so it's quite possible to see people there. Particularly if you want to have the non-normie experience as a tourist.

[Fredd]

Tuluk allows for a different feel to city roleplay. It's a city where literally no-one says what they mean. In Allanak, if someone doesn't like you, they are probably adding a bunch of explatives when they talk to you, or overtly threatening you.

In tuluk, you can't be sure who wants you dead. It's very focused on that "everyone is wearing a mask" feel.

The political play in both cities feels COMPLETELY different. Complete night and day.

I remember one of my favorite political plays in new tuluk was A Tenneshi showing up to a Dasari event, asking to speak, and more or less taking credit for the whole thing. the speach that was given, the planned out use of npc's. it was *chefs kiss*

I remember one of my favorite political plays in recentish Allanak. I was a Kuraci dealer that brought an Elf whore down to Nak. Figured why not make some coins off the skinnies right?
A noble and a templar made it their personal mission to bully her/me. Complained about every step she took, had her beat, had me remove one of her fingers, ect ect. While I (stupidly prolly) tried to protect my employee.

Both of those were fun for me. But both of those have WILDLY different feels. This difference is, in itself, enough to answer the question posed by OP IMO.