What things should we close?

[Shabago]

Splitting off Halaster's topic, consider various views alluded to there.

[Nao]

Do we have to close anything?

[dumbstruck]

I don't think you should close anything. I think it's silly that anyone who has been around through the exodus that was the first closure of Tuluk could possibly remember that and believe that consolidation works to do anything but drive players away. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I'm not playing in Tuluk or Allanak because I don't enjoy it. All of the above could close and it still wouldn't make me. The wilderness itself could close and it would only make me quit playing.

[Kavrick]

I think this is an incredibly difficult thing to put into nuance. Generally you have two parties that either want to be able to play the way they want to be able to play, and those who think consolidating the playerbase is important.

Both of these things are equally important imo. I think the number of tribes available for play should cover most flavors/playstyles of tribal that is obvious, but I also don't think opening all tribes is a good idea, especially where there is thematic overlap or redundancy. I would much rather have three playable elven tribes with incredibly recognizable and flavorful themes over 10 playable elven tribes with murky, overlapping ones. I also even think from the side of someone who plays in a tribe, it'd be nice to be in a tribe with 10 players rather than one with 3.

[Dracul]

Close Allanak!

Partially shitposting. Honestly I vote for 'none of the above' but I'm half serious about Allanak.

For awhile, until it is missed, and then it can be liberated! (internally or externally).

[Shabago]

Poll updated to allow up to 5 votes, if multiple desired.

[Halaster]

Do we have to close anything?

No, it's just gathering opinions is all.  Doesn't mean we will, doesn't mean we won't.  This is just asking the playerbase's opinion.

[mansa]

My view is not to close things, but to have a capacity limit of player population.

In my head, I see it as this.  When a player is applying to create a character in an established clan/tribe, there's a "vibe check" for the current breakdown of active players and their primarily location zones they interact in.   If the vibe check goes beyond the stated representation of player population, the application gets put on hold until the game's player population representation sorts itself out.

This wouldn't be a check for players applying to create non-clanned characters.

I would break it down like this:
Allanak 40%
Tuluk 30%
Others 30%
I would give the vibe check a +/- 10% threshold, because it's good to have some leeway.

You can consider it like this:

Tuluk:   (30% player population +/- 10%)
- Tuluk Templars & Legion Soldiers
- Noble Houses
- - House Dasari
- - House Winrothol
- - House Tenneshi
- - House Kassigarh
- Akai Sjir
- Poets' Circle
- Merchant Houses
- - Kadius
- - Salarr
- - Kurac
- T'zai Byn Mercenary Company
- Player Created Clans

Allanak:   (40% player population +/- 10%)
- Allanaki Templars & Arm of the Dragon Soldiers
- Noble Houses
- - House Jal
- - House Rennik
- - House Valika
- - House Borsail
- - House Kasix
- - House Sath
- - House Fale
- - House Oash
- - House Tor
- The Guild
- Valuren
- Merchant Houses
- - Kadius
- - Salarr
- - Kurac
- T'zai Byn Mercenary Company
- Player Created Clans


Outside Allanak and Tuluk:    (30% player population +/- 10%)
Tribals & Raiders:
- Al'Seik      (Humans)
- Arabet       (Humans)
- Tan Muark    (Humans)
- Vru'Rihali    (Humans)
- Sun Runners  (Elves)
- Two Moons    (Elves)
- Akei'Ta Var    (Elves)
- Dune Stalkers    (Elves)
- Soh Lanah Kah    (Elves)
- Bashurit    (Thryzn)
- Crimson Wind
- Player Created Clans
Greater Merchant Houses:
- Kadius
- Salarr
- Kurac
- The Garrison

[Gunnerblaster]

Didn't tribes used to be open/closed on like a rotation? What happened with that?

[Nao]

You forgot the Red Fangs 

[HammerofJericho]

I think having 1 northern delf tribe,  1 southern delf tribe, and 1 pah/luirs delf tribe is adequate. That's my only vote on it. Otherwise i just think other tribes need to have more reason to interact with the cities and it's solve a good deal of spreading thin issues.

[najdorf]

A friendly reminder that this can be demotivating for players currently in these clans. A reassurrance from staff that this is only for an assessment and wont impact clans would be beneficial

[Pariah]

Do we have to close anything?

No, it's just gathering opinions is all.  Doesn't mean we will, doesn't mean we won't.  This is just asking the playerbase's opinion.

A friendly reminder that this can be demotivating for players currently in these clans. A reassurrance from staff that this is only for an assessment and wont impact clans would be beneficial

[Bebop]

I empathize that it can be demotivating.  I played a white robe back when 2.Arm got announced and was told I had like a month to play.  It can suck.

But also, I for one, am SUPER glad to see staff taking player opinion into account and making decisions based on the numbers and discourse instead of treating the game like their own personal sandbox and I feel that absolutely should be encouraged.

[LindseyBalboa]

I started when the Soh and Sun Runners were open. Man the Soh looked cool, and the Sun Runners outwardly seemed less tough/warlike (lol) but less sneaky too, in the raider sense. Then the Soh closed and the Two Moon opened. I saw an NPC animation of a Dune Stalker at this time, and just from that and the little blurb on the website, knew - I wanted to play in the tribe.

Years later I got to. I want to again. I like having options. These are the things that have kept me playing when I was invested in a character long-term and didn't want to repeat the same shit in the same area.

Closing things players are looking forward to playing is not fun. Make cities more fun to play in and people will play there more; but they still need terrors outside the gates to be scared of, and exotic traders coming in to offer strange wares and maybe fleece them.

[whengravityfails]

I started when the Soh and Sun Runners were open. Man the Soh looked cool, and the Sun Runners outwardly seemed less tough/warlike (lol) but less sneaky too, in the raider sense. Then the Soh closed and the Two Moon opened. I saw an NPC animation of a Dune Stalker at this time, and just from that and the little blurb on the website, knew - I wanted to play in the tribe.

Years later I got to. I want to again. I like having options. These are the things that have kept me playing when I was invested in a character long-term and didn't want to repeat the same shit in the same area.

Closing things players are looking forward to playing is not fun. Make cities more fun to play in and people will play there more; but they still need terrors outside the gates to be scared of, and exotic traders coming in to offer strange wares and maybe fleece them.

Absolutely this. Also, I would put money down that if you closed Templars you'd see more people in the cities very quickly. Nothing empties them quicker than a bad Templar.

[DesertT]

Where's the option to OPEN Red Storm East?!?!


Before I submit my vote on who I think should close, could we get some data about how many PC's have lasted more than four days played in the above listed tribes?

Maybe just over the course of 2022?

If we have to pick something, I would vote for whatever isn't already getting any meaningful activity.

Otherwise, I like leaving them open, mostly.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd much rather see what we have open improved (particularly the cities, but also the  existing and established human tribes) rather than continual closing and devotion of energy to particular pet projects like the thryzn and this new tribe.

That said, I voted to leave everything open.

[Krath]

I voted for some of the options. That is I do not understand what the point of them is on Zalanthas as a playable tribe. It feels, to me, that a lot of the Delf tribes that have been reopened have had their original core completely neutered. [removed by Hestia] the Red Fangs being the real raiders not a merchanting tribe, etc. A lot of the Lore that made them enjoyable and added to the theme of Armageddon have been taken away. This is not the case for D-Elves only, but a lot of the other clans in the game as well and makes a lot of them feel redundant.

Non-public clan lore needs to remain non-public clan lore, even if the clan is closed or changed - unless the staff says it's okay otherwise. - Hestia

[zealus]

I think as long as staff energy is sufficient, keeping things open just gives players more chances to play what they want, when they want it. I've noticed that even having one other place to be really helps with wiping the slate for the next run in the other place

[Derain]

I don't think red storm should close.. I think adding a new tribe recently may be a mistake.

[Pariah]

Ooph, this is gonna sting...

I voted close everything but Allanak and Tuluk.

I meant the locations, the gathering points more so than the clans themselves.

If you wanna be some tribal whatever, go ahead, but I don't think you should be across the world from everyone.

I think we opened too much, too soon without the playerbase to support it in hopes that "choice" would be enough to raise the player count.

Spoiler, it wasn't.

I'm sure the world is missing people right now like me, because I'm becoming the best Wizard in Hogwarts, but I'll be back.

[Tuannon]

Don't close anything

Just encourage people to cycle through a bunch of places instead of going between the same three clans or whatever.

[Barsook]

I think having 1 northern delf tribe,  1 southern delf tribe, and 1 pah/luirs delf tribe is adequate. That's my only vote on it. Otherwise i just think other tribes need to have more reason to interact with the cities and it's solve a good deal of spreading thin issues.

Do the same with the human tribals. There are way too many delf tribes in one area.

[lostinspace]

Voted for Dune Stalkers and Two Moons.

Two Moons is because they seem to be roughly the elven equivalent of the new human tribe that just opened. Both in the Vrun, likely both under the cities thumb. Just feels like enough overlap to only have one open at a time, and might as well that be the new exciting thing. Also just more human tribes to match the number of elven tribes.

Dune Stalkers is because it seems like they're a clan built around being the sneakiest or best assassins? I'm not even sure, but I do know I've never run into one in game, or if I did I was unable to identify them as a Dune Stalker specifically. Maybe they're a blast to play as, but from outside perspective they're so good at being sneaky it was like they didn't even exist.

[Pariah]

Damn, Everyone seems to hate the Dune Stalkers.

[LindseyBalboa]

Damn, Everyone seems to hate the Dune Stalkers.

they hate em cause they ain't em

[Shabago]

TrollFace.gif

Now this has had some time to circulate and some voting numbers come in as means to prove a point, here's the bait and switch. It was a joke-thread to point out how the other thread was being derailed, why and how.

With the votes cast as is, absolutely nothing ran away as a 'loser' to close, and thus means each of them has some manner of support, interest or players actively in them. Further, the fact the largest amount of votes when into "Don't close nuthin'" speaks for itself.

We have no active discussion staff side to close anything. Instead, the point was to show that closures hurt fellow players, or that the content is apparently being well received (don't close anything).

Instead, we'll continue to carrot, rather than stick, areas of the game we believe need it, could use it, or should have a bigger player portion and doesn't. This can be found in the city thread, Hestia's posts in discord recently, Halasters coding efforts and a project of my own over mini-jobs that are coming soon - to name a few with more to come.

[Pariah]

Well, Dune Stalkers got the most hate. So they must either be doing something incredibly well or badly.

[Bebop]

I voted for the Bashurit and Dune Stalkers for these reasons:

From the Dune Stalkers public docs/description:

A very secretive and rarely seen tribe of desert elves, the Dune Stalkers are never-the-less known to be some of the best hit and run raiders in the world of Zalanthas. Combining speed, cunning, an and almost supernatural knowledge of terrain and environment, caravans that are hit by Dune Stalker raiding crews are usually unaware of danger until the first few bodies tumble off the wagon.

This is an immediate no from me.  Any tribe that is rarely seen is not geared towards interaction with other PCs.   Generally, I think most people don't know much about them.  They're cool in theory.  The idea of a short story where a group is riding through the Known on a wagon and suddenly they're ambushed with silent, raptor like precision makes for a great short story.  It doesn't make for good game play.

As for the Bashurit:

Thryzn organize into tribes, like many other desert-dwelling races, and form strong bonds with their tribemates. They are generally aware how outside races view them, and when combined with their own racial pride this makes them very wary and reluctant to visit cities or larger outposts. While thryzn have traditionally been very isolated, recent events have thrust them into the Known, and many of them (particularly the younger ones) are somewhat curious of the larger world.

Originally, I was excited about a new mutant race.  I still do like all of the coded mutation options.  And I do love the idea of coded mutants.  Especially if they were to reclaim their spot in the cities, or Tuluk as they once did. 

Instead, per the typical tribal dynamic, they have been set up for aggression, bias and isolation.  Despite it being that they began as a race almost wiped out (and could supposedly could hhave been due to their actions) nothing about the current status of this tribe gives any indication of low numbers or a near wipe out scenario in how they have interfaced with the major factions in the game.

They've been set up to already have infrastructure, production, military and trade in the Known.  It isn't reflective of a beleaguered near wiped out race of disgusting freaks that has to carefully choose their actions lest they get either wiped out, or forever written off as aggressors.  From what I've witnessed they're being treated like elves with scales.

I would have loved to see thryzen as they once were.  Fringe groups at the outskirts of polite society in the city, relegated to the Rinth and Lows of their respective states.  Skulking about Red Storm with speculation of mutation occurring due to the nature of silt or magick.  That would have been cool.  But just setting them up as a mini-outpost or GMH unto themselves straight out of the gate as their introduction into the Known world is not, I feel, what the game needs.

I also feel like their behavior is indistinguishable from other tribes.  Yes, they have their own ideals and structure but at the end of the day what interaction do they bring to the game?  The same thing most tribes bring to the Known - Isolation combat spam and gathering, then interacting with others as either xenophobics or aggressors.

[Bebop]

TrollFace.gif

Now this has had some time to circulate and some voting numbers come in as means to prove a point, here's the bait and switch. It was a joke-thread to point out how the other thread was being derailed, why and how.

With the votes cast as is, absolutely nothing ran away as a 'loser' to close, and thus means each of them has some manner of support, interest or players actively in them. Further, the fact the largest amount of votes when into "Don't close nuthin'" speaks for itself.

We have no active discussion staff side to close anything. Instead, the point was to show that closures hurt fellow players, or that the content is apparently being well received (don't close anything).

Instead, we'll continue to carrot, rather than stick, areas of the game we believe need it, could use it, or should have a bigger player portion and doesn't. This can be found in the city thread, Hestia's posts in discord recently, Halasters coding efforts and a project of my own over mini-jobs that are coming soon - to name a few with more to come.

Soooo staff weren't interested in player opinions or feedback at all and were just trying to teach us all a lesson?  As a joke?

Also don't close anything doesn't speak for itself.  There were 58 votes to close at least one tribe and only 27 for don't close any tribe.

[Veselka]

Well that's pretty confusing. Is the enticing people to play in cities thread a troll post also?

A bait and switch (funny as it may be for Staff) isn't great for optics. People obviously have opinions about both closure of existing tribes and previous closures (Tuluk for instance). Not a great subject to toy around with, considering a mass exodus of previous players surrounding Tuluks closure etc.

We are adults — if Staff wants to continue pursuing opening tribes and ask why people aren't playing in cities that's totally fine. Some players might not agree with that approach and that's fine too.

[Pariah]

They are allowed to try and prove a point.

His point was the don't do anything was the winner.

As some folks said in a different thread, a good chunk of us are the vocal majority but not the majority in general, we just post a lot.

There are probably tons of people who lurk and don't engage in the banter, as much as it sucks as I'm one of those vocal ones, just because we talk a lot doesn't make us right.

[Bebop]

They are allowed to try and prove a point.

His point was the don't do anything was the winner.

As some folks said in a different thread, a good chunk of us are the vocal majority but not the majority in general, we just post a lot.

There are probably tons of people who lurk and don't engage in the banter, as much as it sucks as I'm one of those vocal ones, just because we talk a lot doesn't make us right.

I mean... again, it wasn't the winner.  Math is a thing over 58 votes for closing at least one tribe only 27 for the closure of no tribes.  And also if staff aren't genuinely interested in player feedback they absolutely should not ask for it and then tell players actually we had no interest in your feedback lol, this is to show you guys you're wrong.

[moonlit]

Code Select Expand

mysql> use horta_smf;
mysql> select ID_POLL, question from smf_polls;
+---------+--------------------------------------------------+
| ID_POLL | question                                         |
+---------+--------------------------------------------------+
|   58997 | Pick your closure poison.                        |
+---------+--------------------------------------------------+

mysql> SELECT smf_members.realName, smf_poll_choices.label
    -> FROM smf_log_polls
    -> INNER JOIN smf_members ON smf_log_polls.ID_MEMBER = smf_members.ID_MEMBER
    -> INNER JOIN smf_poll_choices ON smf_log_polls.ID_CHOICE = smf_poll_choices.ID_CHOICE
    -> AND smf_log_polls.ID_POLL = smf_poll_choices.ID_POLL
    -> WHERE smf_log_polls.ID_POLL = 58997;

Code Select Expand


+------------------+---------+
[..]
| User4            | Bashurit       |
| User5's account1 | Two Moons      |
| User5's account2 | Two Moons      |
| User5's account3 | Two Moons      |
| User5's account4 | Two Moons      |
| User5's account5 | Two Moons      |
| User5's account6 | Two Moons      |
[..]
+------------------+---------+
62 rows in set (0.00 sec)

hmm
yeaaa electronic voting is inherently problematic, waaay too easy to mislead people when it's hidden - should need to attach a vote to a post (which is publicly auditable) (or at least show which accounts voted)

















_{████pranked, but... ████}





Either that or disable polls entirely, it's just not right to give people the impression that it's fair when it's not

[Pariah]

They are allowed to try and prove a point.

His point was the don't do anything was the winner.

As some folks said in a different thread, a good chunk of us are the vocal majority but not the majority in general, we just post a lot.

There are probably tons of people who lurk and don't engage in the banter, as much as it sucks as I'm one of those vocal ones, just because we talk a lot doesn't make us right.

I mean... again, it wasn't the winner.  Math is a thing over 58 votes for closing at least one tribe only 27 for the closure of no tribes.  And also if staff aren't genuinely interested in player feedback they absolutely should not ask for it and then tell players actually we had no interest in your feedback lol, this is to show you guys you're wrong.

The idea I think was that more people are in agreement to leave it alone than those in agreement to close a CERTAIN clan.

If you look at the number of people who want SOMETHING CLOSED and add that up, sure that math works how you say, but what do you propose be done? Draw straws, roll dice? How do you justify which viewpoint needs closed?

I personally think that if a clan has less than two people it shouldn't be a clan or taking up player real estate, but I realize that isn't my choice to make or I'd shutter all of it.

[Bebop]

Great.  Staff acting like they value player input all to say it's a bait and switch to make them feel bad for their behavior.  Amazing strategy.  Can't see how that would damage relations at all.

[Patuk]

For what it's worth..



You know, just to make sure you can actually see it.

[mirk_o_loio]

Close Allanak

[Kialae]

I DARE staff to close Allanak.

[Barsook]

Be careful of what you wish for guys....

[Kialae]

I think Tuluk is better for the closure. It reopened with a fresh identity and perspective and my time I've played there has been great and fun for it. Do it for Allanak and see what happens after keeping it closed for 77 IC years.

In fact, there you go. If you want to rotate things, close them for one King's Age. Cycle them open every year 1.

[Barsook]

You do have a valid point, but the problem is that you gonna have Tuluk be like Allanak.

[dumbstruck]

I DARE staff to close Allanak.

This. And Tuluk. Come play in the Tribes, or play in an Outpost. It's a survivalist desert world post apocalypse. Empires are unrealistic. Retcon empires. Close the gates. 

[Armaddict]

Problem with that being that cities are the 'natural' consolidation of players.

We keep talking about consolidation.  We keep talking about lack of interaction.  It's a recurring theme.

But then we have the places where congregation is natural, where spaces are more proximal, where setups are there for content...and we say 'I don't wanna die THERE' and spread out.

I'm sorry, you can say carrot works better than stick, but we're gonna end up in a carrot farm here and not Armageddon until you make death more common outside of the cities until they're the shelter from the wilds the commoners think they are.

[Hestia]

I think we should go hard-core:

The ATV and the Arabet end up in an unholy alliance, and the resulting babies move to Cenyr. The rest of the planet blows up when Tek and Muk Utep duke it out for the 20th time. No apartments, no save-rooms, one tavern, no templars, no garrison, no GMH.

Everyone's a breed.

Go.

[Halcyon]

How would people feel about a rotating closure schedule, so that 20% of the options were closed at any one time, but you could always count on everything reopening in due time?

Yes, including Allanak and Tuluk and the Sun Runners.

[BadSkeelz]

I think we should go hard-core:

The ATV and the Arabet end up in an unholy alliance, and the resulting babies move to Cenyr. The rest of the planet blows up when Tek and Muk Utep duke it out for the 20th time. No apartments, no save-rooms, one tavern, no templars, no garrison, no GMH.

Everyone's a breed.

Go.

In terms of stat bonuses, breeds are legitimately the most adaptable race of Zalanthas. It's only their inherent inability to get along and establish a breeding population that prevent half-elves (With their superior stats and natural ride) from conquering the Known like emotionally volatile Mongols.

[dumbstruck]

I think we should go hard-core:

The ATV and the Arabet end up in an unholy alliance, and the resulting babies move to Cenyr. The rest of the planet blows up when Tek and Muk Utep duke it out for the 20th time. No apartments, no save-rooms, one tavern, no templars, no garrison, no GMH.

Everyone's a breed.

Go.

Did you just create the Adevari, Hestia? Can I spec app my Cenyri Adevari meow or must I wait until the documentation goes in? Also? Waterslides? Yes or no?

[Barsook]

How would people feel about a rotating closure schedule, so that 20% of the options were closed at any one time, but you could always count on everything reopening in due time?

Yes, including Allanak and Tuluk and the Sun Runners.

Urg, this again?! While I like the idea of rotations, I don't think that the staff will do this. The idea of seasons too.

[Delusion]

A total of 66 members voted. Only 29 said that nothing should close. That gives a majority, although a slight one, who have indicated they feel there is something that should close, though there is obviously no clear consensus on what.

[BadSkeelz]

I voted "No closures" even though I do feel a lot has been opened quickly and without much meaningful integration in to the Known, unless you're in just the right role to see it. Lot of "unearned" statuses or a feeling of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

The things are open, and people enjoy them. Closing them won't do any favors for attracting or retaining players. Need to improve what we have before opening anything else, though. More living spaces, more things to do, more obtainable goals within the walls.

[Yelinak]

This game should be half its size.

[DesertT]

This game should be half its size.

Just make sure you leave the half that I want to play.

Screw the other half.   

[Vwest]

Great.  Staff acting like they value player input all to say it's a bait and switch to make them feel bad for their behavior.  Amazing strategy.  Can't see how that would damage relations at all.

Are you questioning Great Leader's correct decisions, comrade...?

[Halaster]

The idea of seasons too.

I absolutely love the idea of seasons, I just don't know that we'd ever do it and pull it off on Arm.

The idea being like "for the next year we're focusing on Allanak", and actually un-link Luir's, the Pah, Red Desert, Canyons of Waste.  So basically the game world would be Allanak, RSV, villages, Salt Flats.   Everyone plays in those areas.  Then a year or so later, focus somewhere else.

Again, I don't ever see it happening, more likely that'd be fun to start a new MUD like that.  Just kinda dreaming here.

[Kialae]

Come on guys we're playing a game here. Relax on the staff vitriol.

[Halaster]

Come on guys we're playing a game here. Relax on the staff vitriol.

Eh, we deserve it for this one.  This thread was a spectacular PR disaster, lol

[Pariah]

Come on guys we're playing a game here. Relax on the staff vitriol.

Eh, we deserve it for this one.  This thread was a spectacular PR disaster, lol

I still don't think they should be getting this shitty about it in some cases.  But I have to admit watching some of them freak out over this poll was entertaining to say the least.

I know this is like an accident and you're not supposed to find accidents interesting but I couldn't stop watching this post all day.

[Kialae]

I pretty much have nothing else to do at work but look at the forums. I can play the game too, but barely. I'm highly distracted at work lately (it's that time of year)

[Bebop]

Come on guys we're playing a game here. Relax on the staff vitriol.

Eh, we deserve it for this one.  This thread was a spectacular PR disaster, lol

Agreed.  Not only did it waste everyone's time giving input just to told be told that we're being trolled by staff.  It completely demotivated all of the players in the tribes that were potentially put on the imaginary chopping block as people voted against them being in game. 

If a player did something like this they would be accused of purposefully being sarcastic, sewing discontent, trolling and making drama - and potentially be dealt some kind of ban.    But staff do this to players when we're taking the time to give heart felt input about improving the game, and we're just expected to "learn our lesson" and be told to check our collective behavior and that this was all a punishment to show us we're wrong and to be nice or something?  Over behavior some of us didn't know was occurring?

Then staff ban me off of Discord and Hestia remarks about who "won" the conflict that staff themselves started by doing a fake troll thread when they had no intention of valuing anyone's opinion here?  Absolutely wonderful behavior.  10/10  No favoritism at all confirmed.

If a staff member really has this much resentment for the players that they'd rather troll in this fashion instead of fostering good will or doing a PSA maybe it's time for a break.

I just sent out a slew of kudos to staff today and was encouraging others to do the same in Discord to try to foster good will and this is the response from staff.  Being trolled and banned from the discourse.  Love this for us.

[Pariah]

I pretty much have nothing else to do at work but look at the forums. I can play the game too, but barely. I'm highly distracted at work lately (it's that time of year)

Me too, my job is cursed, if I don't open up a mud app, nobody needs me.

Moment I get into something in a mid client, bam every person in my job needs my help!

[Brokkr]

Come on guys we're playing a game here. Relax on the staff vitriol.

Eh, we deserve it for this one.  This thread was a spectacular PR disaster, lol

Agreed.  Not only did it waste everyone's time giving input just to told be told that we're being trolled by staff.  It completely demotivated all of the players in the tribes that were potentially put on the imaginary chopping block as people voted against them being in game. 

If a player did something like this they would be accused of purposefully being sarcastic, sewing discontent, trolling and making drama - and potentially be dealt some kind of ban.    But staff do this to players when we're taking the time to give heart felt input about improving the game, and we're just expected to "learn our lesson" and be told to check our collective behavior and that this was all a punishment to show us we're wrong and to be nice or something?  Over behavior some of us didn't know was occurring?

Then staff ban me off of Discord and Hestia remarks about who "won" the conflict that staff themselves started by doing a fake troll thread when they had no intention of valuing anyone's opinion here?  Absolutely wonderful behavior.  10/10  No favoritism at all confirmed.

If a staff member really has this much resentment for the players that they'd rather troll in this fashion instead of fostering good will or doing a PSA maybe it's time for a break.

I just sent out a slew of kudos to staff today and was encouraging others to do the same in Discord to try to foster good will and this is the response from staff.  Being trolled and banned from the discourse.  Love this for us.

Whatever the intent, I found the feedback useful.  Which is probably good, because I am the Producer that essentially made the decision to give opening all the Desert Elf tribes up a go, given what we were doing with the Red Fangs at the time.

My understanding is that you were banned for critically insulting another player.  My expectation for what is said here and on Discord is that what is said is in good faith.  Conflating arguments is not in good faith.

I view these places as a dinner table.  It is not your dinner table.  It is not your parent's dinner table. We are not your parents.  It is not our job to teach you manners.  You come to the table with your manners and you use them.  No excuses.  If you were never taught manners or you were and you do not use them, do not expect to be invited back.

It is probably good I am not on Discord much.

[Windstorm]

Brokkr: I don't believe Bebop intended to insult anyone in particular and I don't think they really did. Discord's history is thorough and I encourage you to read it. Someone got singled out, perhaps unfairly, but I don't think insult was had.

They were frustrated after something was aired here in a sort of frustrating manner and I don't really think that should be incorrectly reframed upon Bebop without some regards for the context. I didn't read anything they wrote as personally insulting to anyone.

Bebop was frustrated. There's been some frustration in the air lately. Not all of it has been expressed well.

I think not just one, not just two, but a good number of people around here that have been getting negative towards each other fairly consistently need to take a step back and take a breath and get their heads on straight.

We're here to have fun together. This is a game. It's a shared creative hobby we all enjoy. Some for different reasons and some with different visions of how it should be than others.

But we're all here to have fun. Let's try to get back to that instead of pointing fingers and trying to tell everyone else how they should play, whether their creativity should exist where it does or not.

Take a breath. Calm down. It's a game. We're here to have fun.

<3

[Kialae]

This nonsense is exactly why it's better to just not engage with the community (I know I have been here of late, but I'm usually standoffish) and have fun with the game. It's done me wonders. Leave the discord. It's great for your wellness and enjoyment of the game.

[H182]

I imagine there's a large amount of players, myself included, who generally avoid the forum because we're not interested in reading through the massive amount of absurd complaints and seeing the same niche of often toxic forum members complain about different things over and over.

There's a large amount of people who play the game, and avoid the forum and discord altogether for what are most likely obvious reasons.

Some people just enjoy playing the game. Admins, you are doing a great job with everything.

[BadSkeelz]

lol they're clearly not. They're trying but there have been some massive self-owns of late.

[Windstorm]

This is what I mean. What does anyone benefit from random oneliners chiming in just to crap on their efforts?

This community really needs more positivity and less cheeky shots at the people working to make it fun and being yelled at from all sides over it.

If anything's self-owning, it's the entire community self-owning itself. We're all supposed to be here because we're enjoying something together.

They're trying. Are you? Or are you just tearing it down?

[H182]

People simply need to remember that there is a whole large segment of the playerbase who avoids the forum.
The little niche  of posters in the forum does not constitute the opinions of the entire playerbase.

There are many people who just play to play.

This thread is an example of what is wrong with the forum. 

A poll thread like this where votes are being cast suggesting the closure of clans. Have you asked the people who
play in the clans? Who want to play in the clans? Or are you assuming that the voting poll represents the entire
playerbase and everyone who is active in game - including people who avoid the forum.

If you've never had a Dune Stalker, been involved with them IC, or know anything about it, do you really have the right
to vote for the closure of that clan What about the people who play in it? What about the people
who really enjoy it, but just don't want to come post on the forum?

What about people who love the clan and have contributed
to its development and history? Just because you, as a player, might not like a clan or rarely see characters from it does not mean
it's absent and not contributing to the richness of the game world. Have you asked the people who actually love playing it?

The forum is a small part of the voice of the players. Even less so those who post. It is not THE VOICE of the players
and does not represent the opinion of the majority or whole.

Not everything appeals to everyone, but some things appeal to some. It's about the enjoyment each player has and their ability
to help write and shape the world. Keep others in mind.

[BadSkeelz]

They're trying. Are you? Or are you just tearing it down?

Hey, I'm playing the game as the docs intended. All I ask from Staff is to approve my characters and RP with me on their innumerable avatars. That's all they gotta do to get a check mark in my book.

[Tuannon]

Personally I think Skeelz is a net credit to the game, just probably needs a bit better delivery and PR.

Don't conflate this with the negativity elsewhere, it's not the same.

[Patuk]

I don't know why this turned into a gdb hate thread and I have no idea how to figure it out. Maybe we could cunningly improve discourse on it by not trolling the playerbase en masse or something.

[HazelHomewrecker]

Then staff ban me off of Discord and Hestia remarks about who "won" the conflict that staff themselves started by doing a fake troll thread when they had no intention of valuing anyone's opinion here?  Absolutely wonderful behavior.  10/10  No favoritism at all confirmed.

I don't think that was a literal remark, and I don't appreciate the notion of staff favoritism on my part. I like to at least think that everything until now has been based on the merit of my writing and not because they just like me. It also devalues so much of the work I've done, but I try to be understanding of you because I know you were feeling very passionate about how you felt concerning the whole debacle. I have literally no problems with you, I would like to see you return fully to the discord and play the game happily, but I'm sick of being targeted at this point--and I certainly don't need staff white-knighting for me either.

If you have nothing better to do than attack me because you perceive favoritism, then yeah I think it IS time for you to take a break.

The poll thread was a troll bait-and-switch that never should have happened, especially in this case where a PSA could have really done the job ten times better without getting people involved to the point where they felt unheard and unappreciated. I added you on Discord, and I would be glad to talk to you to try and smooth things out between us (honestly, I still don't know why you have issues with ME when we've literally only spoken twice before.)

[valeria]

A total of 66 members voted. Only 29 said that nothing should close. That gives a majority, although a slight one, who have indicated they feel there is something that should close, though there is obviously no clear consensus on what.

I realize this thread has turned into something else, but I just want to point out that this is not necessarily true.  Because there was the ability to select more than one thing, some people (like me) may have selected 'don't close anything' but also the thing they would prefer to see closed, if anything.

[Lotion]

close everything except tablelands and take away free clan water
remove the virtual world
open every possible clan in the tablelands
give people a hack and slash fight for survival with enforced rp for like two months and see how it goes

[Delusion]

A total of 66 members voted. Only 29 said that nothing should close. That gives a majority, although a slight one, who have indicated they feel there is something that should close, though there is obviously no clear consensus on what.

I realize this thread has turned into something else, but I just want to point out that this is not necessarily true.  Because there was the ability to select more than one thing, some people (like me) may have selected 'don't close anything' but also the thing they would prefer to see closed, if anything.

I see 80 total members having cast a total of 139 votes, with 36 members indicating they don't want to see any change, leaving 44 who do. The total number of respondents is given at the bottom of the results.

[Pariah]

If you look at the updated numbers, it looks like most folks don't like desert elves in some fashion.

[Hestia]

This is a good example of why the poll was -obviously- flawed, probably intentionally so:

I am one of the 82 people who voted, just this morning.

Here's how I voted:

Red Storm Village
Player Run area
Any, all of the above outside of Tuluk and Allanak
Other, will explain
Don't close NUTHIN'

So me, one singular voter, wanted both "no change" and "four or more" changes (since "Any" would include a minimum of 1 and a maximum of a couple of dozen clans).

The statistics of this poll have no meaning, at all. Anyone who looks at the options, and recognizes that someone can vote for both "none" and any four of actual requests including "other" and "any" would know this.

[Krath]

I imagine there's a large amount of players, myself included, who generally avoid the forum because we're not interested in reading through the massive amount of absurd complaints and seeing the same niche of often toxic forum members complain about different things over and over.

There's a large amount of people who play the game, and avoid the forum and discord altogether for what are most likely obvious reasons.

Some people just enjoy playing the game. Admins, you are doing a great job with everything.

What H182 said is all true, in BOTH posts. 

I vote we partially close the GDB with the exception of Staff Related, Clan specific, Player Announcements and collaboration, Code Discussion, and OOC Discussion. In addition to this, I would have Quarterly Player/Staff Meetings that give updates from the previous meeting, and as well, the general questions that are asked. Everything else should be able to be handled by the Request tool.

[Bebop]

Why is this thread even still open?  It's a completely flawed metric.  According to Shabago this entire thread was only made to troll the playerbase.  It's succeeding in causing massive drama and horrible feelings amongst the playerbase.  Also according to Shabago staff aren't actually considering these changes.  The people in these clans have said this thread has made them discouraged to play.  Was there any productive point to this thread?  Why is it open?  This thread was a disaster that did nothing but cause bad feelings and drama all around and waste the time of everyone who contributed.

[Malken]

This is a good example of why the poll was -obviously- flawed, probably intentionally so:

I am one of the 82 people who voted, just this morning.

Here's how I voted:

Red Storm Village
Player Run area
Any, all of the above outside of Tuluk and Allanak
Other, will explain
Don't close NUTHIN'

So me, one singular voter, wanted both "no change" and "four or more" changes (since "Any" would include a minimum of 1 and a maximum of a couple of dozen clans).

The statistics of this poll have no meaning, at all. Anyone who looks at the options, and recognizes that someone can vote for both "none" and any four of actual requests including "other" and "any" would know this.

I don't understand, is that something you're proud of or is just messing up with the poll, as a staff, to also "teach us a lesson"...?

[Bebop]

This is a good example of why the poll was -obviously- flawed, probably intentionally so:

I am one of the 82 people who voted, just this morning.

Here's how I voted:

Red Storm Village
Player Run area
Any, all of the above outside of Tuluk and Allanak
Other, will explain
Don't close NUTHIN'

So me, one singular voter, wanted both "no change" and "four or more" changes (since "Any" would include a minimum of 1 and a maximum of a couple of dozen clans).

The statistics of this poll have no meaning, at all. Anyone who looks at the options, and recognizes that someone can vote for both "none" and any four of actual requests including "other" and "any" would know this.

I don't understand, is that something you're proud of or is just messing up with the poll, as a staff, to also "teach us a lesson"...?

That's the other thing... staff were actually voting to tilt the poll when it was supposed to be about player feedback.  This thread seriously needs to be closed.  It's done such a huge amount of damage.

[DesertT]

Why is this thread even still open?  It's a completely flawed metric.  According to Shabago this entire thread was only made to troll the playerbase.  It's succeeding in causing massive drama and horrible feelings amongst the playerbase.  Also according to Shabago staff aren't actually considering these changes.  The people in these clans have said this thread has made them discouraged to play.  Was there any productive point to this thread?  Why is it open?  This thread was a disaster that did nothing but cause bad feelings and drama all around and waste the time of everyone who contributed.

Yet here you are...

[Bebop]

Why is this thread even still open?  It's a completely flawed metric.  According to Shabago this entire thread was only made to troll the playerbase.  It's succeeding in causing massive drama and horrible feelings amongst the playerbase.  Also according to Shabago staff aren't actually considering these changes.  The people in these clans have said this thread has made them discouraged to play.  Was there any productive point to this thread?  Why is it open?  This thread was a disaster that did nothing but cause bad feelings and drama all around and waste the time of everyone who contributed.

Yet here you are...

Correct.  Advocating for this thread to be closed.  Good observation.

[WarriorPoet]

Lol.  We all shit the bed here.

Close everything. Let me play a Rip Van Winkle halfling.

[Halaster]

This thread is a trainwreck, caused by staff.  I'm sorry this happened, please accept our apologies, this was a mistake.  Shabago has apologized over it (thanks Patuk for posting that in the thread), but it doesn't need to continue.  Locking it.