What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[Yelinak]

There's only a platform for theft and stealth if there's a target for these activities. If nobody wants anything stolen or anyone shadowed, there literally isn't a place in all of Allanak (or Tuluk, for that matter) for a character who specializes in these things. Unfortunately, for quite a while now, it has been the regrettable truth that there just isn't any such demand.

I played a master thief some five or six years ago and have fond memories of being tasked by the Guild with such jobs as getting all the estate keys from any of <redacted merchant house members> save for the one who had paid us to do that, so that he could get promoted by making the rest look incompetent because they lost their keys. That was awesome.

But these days, such things just don't seem to take place. Something's been lost, or a shift of focus onto new races and tribes and whatnot. It's as though the interaction within each partition of the game has gone missing in exchange for the flashy and shortlived latest event that almost never turns out to mean anything to any but the two or three characters who are in just the right positions at the right time. Meanwhile, for anyone else, it can be another year of sheer nothingness.

This started to become a thing before player numbers declined, too. If it had only just begun in the last year or two, one could be forgiven for thinking that it was the inevitable consequence of fewer players, but it isn't so. Something happened, some conscious decision, that made it so that the reasons to care about people in other clans (or even other people in your clan) just dried up.

What this game needs is not more tribes or populated outposts. What it needs is more reasons for the existing clans and established populations to care about each other. It's so dull to play a member/employee of House Kadius and barely care about the economy. It's tedious to play in the Byn and never care what the government thinks of anyone. It's silly to play a gangster in the Guild and barely hear of any nobles who log on often enouh to warrant caring about them.

These things were once part of city play, and what made it appealing. They've gone missing in recent years. They went missing, actually, around the time when numbers recently startled to dwindle for real. They went missing because nobody cared to maintain them, and I do wonder if that fact doesn't play a part in the declining number of people who want to play this game.

[Classclown]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

This is the problem with the cities as I see it. Not people hiding, people complaining about stealth.

You got 3 types of archtypes really. Fighty, who spends their time mostly in the wilds, Crafty, that spends their time mostly in warehouses, and stealthy, who spend most of their time in bars.

For years we've been chipping away at a core archtype for the players in the city. So is it any wonder at all that less and less people are playing there if the things they would want to play there are less and less viable?


This isn't even just codedly. Thematically, we are also pushing our stealthy players away. Just look at Tuluk. Back in the day, thieves were just as highly  respected as assassins. But if you read the modern documentation, thieves aren't shadow artists anymore, and cannot be considered masters, because killing is the opposite of thieving. In Tuluk now, thieves are just... Thieves. With a tattoo that means "my fine is scaling, eventually I wont be able to pay it"

And there's no give on that scaling fine either. You can be a master thief, have done 20 missions for the templars against Allanak, stolen copper for them. But fuck up 1 to many times, even with 20 years between fuckups. You lost your master.

why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?

Crime shouldn't be easy. You shouldn't be able to walk by the front door guy with a whole apartment's worth of furniture without believable and logged rp. Same for stealthy murders. The victims' players could maybe even get a copy after death through a request, only the pertinent parts of course. It might make people feel better about their stealthy death/burglary.

[digitaleak]

Other than needing communication between staff/players to make city plots happen (as well as active city players), why not just take matters into our own hands as players and create as many of these plots for ourselves as we can on a smaller scale?

[Classclown]

There should be an ig ooc mailing system so players can coordinate ig events without revealing the players. Maybe even allow group mailing to multiple players at once. (Targeting character name/sdesc)

ETA: To be used in conjunction with ig rp meetings, not to replace them.

[Dresan]

Crime should not be easy but it is an important part of the game.

Stealth is important because otherwise you cannot live where you work. If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.

Rinth and Rooftops don't make comfortable living spaces isolated from the politics of the city.

The only place that fits this criteria is redstorm as long as you have the right skills to get there and back.

You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.

[Classclown]

Reread your post.

If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.

Well, yeah. They don't want to be your next target. If you're a shitty thief and get outed, you should face the consequences. Stealth should also be as realistic as coding allows. You shouldn't get to magically vanish without proper rp or vanish in a room with virtually no hiding places.

[Riev]

Reread your post.

If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.

Well, yeah. They don't want to be your next target. If you're a shitty thief and get outed, you should face the consequences. Stealth should also be as realistic as coding allows. You shouldn't get to magically vanish without proper rp or vanish in a room with virtually no hiding places.

I think what he means is that if you fail to steal 30 coins from someone in the Gaj, and get outed, the entire active playerbase will be scrolled your sdesc and you'll get Scarlet Lettered as a thief, and its instant-kill on you all the time.

Why would someone play a thief if the only way it can be does is to twink up to (master) before you interact with a single PC? The 'fun' of Armageddon is in the failures, but with city stealthies specifically... failure is a death sentence.

[Trevalyan]

Other than needing communication between staff/players to make city plots happen (as well as active city players), why not just take matters into our own hands as players and create as many of these plots for ourselves as we can on a smaller scale?

A good idea. This is why leadership PCs exist, by the way, and if there are none who qualify you should be trying to become one quickly.

[Supified]

A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.

Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.

This comment should be pasted on the main page.  Anyone who left the game or is wondering if things are changing or what is changing should read this comment.  This is all you need to know if you don't want to play in Cities or play Armageddon at all. 

I really appreciate a producer being so candid.

Hows the player numbers doing by the way?

[LindseyBalboa]

A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.

Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.

This comment should be pasted on the main page.  Anyone who left the game or is wondering if things are changing or what is changing should read this comment.  This is all you need to know if you don't want to play in Cities or play Armageddon at all. 

I really appreciate a producer being so candid.

Hows the player numbers doing by the way?

lol maybe reread the comment you're responding to idk why the pearls are getting clutched here

[Lotion]

i am literally traumatized by how bad one specific templar was.

_{Please do not specifically call out other players thank you -Zealus}

[Fredd]

A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.

Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.

Hows the player numbers doing by the way?

Numbers look to be on the rise. But I think everyone is playing outside the cities, hence this thread.

[Riev]

Its been an ongoing issue that there FEELS like more to do outside the cities.

I think in general, both players and staff (who are players, themselves) aren't really GOOD at coming up with city play and/or city play that hasn't "been done to death".

How many "you were seen being friendly with a Gemmed" or "Cannibalistic Noble" plot lines can you run before its just doing the same motions? In the wilderness, you can kill a scrab dozens of times and then find the Hulk Scrab that gets a lucky shot to get your blood pumping.

In the cities? I feel the blood pumping moments are "This Templar is going to kill be and I may as well just accept it, because I have no power in this scene". It is not fun to play under overbearing Templars/Nobles, and it is no fun playing alongside Templars/Nobles who 'don't do anything'.


Honestly, I think there should be some generation of ideas on "fun city plots" that COULD be run, and then staff can kind of look over that list. What 'accomplishments' can be done in a city that feels like "killing a gaj" or "taking down that rampaging bahamet"?

[Trevalyan]

What 'accomplishments' can be done in a city that feels like "killing a gaj" or "taking down that rampaging bahamet"?

I know people who speedrun bahamet kills, so this might not be the best example. And yet in some ways it is the best example. Invariably, the awesome becomes ordinary. Invariably, every plot is going to be done between players who have often played the game for RL years. Things will only be as exciting as they are allowed to be. If you can't take the big risks in social roleplay, how many people will care when you succeed? There's an avenue for people who want to be unnoticed and relaxed in their social RP, and there's a path for the crazy people who want to be as dramatic as possible. So what if it ends in your character getting stored or locked away to craft? That's just how things are sometimes.

[Brytta Léofa]

If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim. ... You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.

Okay I think this deserves a little qualification.

Last year I played a master thief/burglar for ~6 months with basically no attempt to hide what he was (okay, except for the nilazi part). He had a number of "friends." I think they mostly hoped he was victimizing other people...which was more true than not.

By "made no attempt to hide what he was" I mean:
- was a rinth elf
- sneaky as fuck
- told people he was in "salvage"
- told tall tales of burglary exploits from his youth

People don't want to lose their stuff, but a lot of folks will go along if you give them even the scantest reason to believe you're on their side, or that there's more to your PC than just taking everything that isn't nailed down.

[Riev]

If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim. ... You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.

Okay I think this deserves a little qualification.

Last year I played a master thief/burglar for ~6 months with basically no attempt to hide what he was (okay, except for the nilazi part). He had a number of "friends." I think they mostly hoped he was victimizing other people...which was more true than not.

By "made no attempt to hide what he was" I mean:
- was a rinth elf
- sneaky as fuck
- told people he was in "salvage"
- told tall tales of burglary exploits from his youth

People don't want to lose their stuff, but a lot of folks will go along if you give them even the scantest reason to believe you're on their side, or that there's more to your PC than just taking everything that isn't nailed down.

You're missing the actual qualifier:
If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you

An elf saying they used to steal stuff and is "in salvage", thats an RP opportunity. If you were caught stealing from someone, and became KNOWN, it becomes very  very different. (also, elf .... its expected anyway)

[NinjaFruitSalad]

So how exactly does a thief get caught out so badly that everyone knows it's them? What happened to the hood and mask mechanics? There's like two articles of clothing people would have to remove from you before you are positively identifiable. That SHOULD give enough time for a thief to run away if they get caught...

Keep in mind, I'm not exactly making a statement here, but still genuinely asking a question, seeing as I've never really been a thief, nor very successful at actually catching thieves.

But I do think a smart thief who has had a chance to skill up has many chances. If people notice you're skulking around a room, and you get notifications that you're being watched, the smart thing to do is simply leave. Bugger off and perhaps, try again another time. And this is what I feel, also makes life difficult for the victims, seeing as a smart thief can pick and choose their victims.

No matter how paranoid you are and how tightly you hold on to your bag, somehow it can just be magically opened.

[Riev]

So how exactly does a thief get caught out so badly that everyone knows it's them? What happened to the hood and mask mechanics? There's like two articles of clothing people would have to remove from you before you are positively identifiable. That SHOULD give enough time for a thief to run away if they get caught...

l hooded
You see an mdesc that looks an awful lot like ninjaFruitSalad and a set of gear you're pretty sure you saw NinjaFruitSalad wearing before.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

l hooded
You see an mdesc that looks an awful lot like ninjaFruitSalad and a set of gear you're pretty sure you saw NinjaFruitSalad wearing before.

You can also veil/mask.  And also, the smart thing to do is change out gears so that what you wear when you are thieving does not match what you wear when you're.. out socializing or whatever.

Also.

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

While the picture is cool and all, and I see your point, I still find it highly unrealistic. At the very least, such a feat like this should have a heavy stamina drain, and it still seems like there's a good chance to be spotted.

[Riev]

Unfortunately, sometimes players will resort to "unrealistic" justifications because the last time they tried to "play by the rules", someone else loosely justified poor behavior.

You're right, its the "smart" thing to do, but does it not get tiring or exhausting to have to put hours of thought into a roleplaying game just to 'avoid being screwed over by a player who doesn't understand a face mask might hide the shape of your nose'?

Maybe this really isn't the game for people like me, who want to have the time they can dedicate to a game be respected.

[Dresan]

You get outted as a thief fairly quickly in this game.

First of all, even at max some thief skills will still critcally fail and you may end up wanted. You better be ready to escape crimcode with subguild level skills.

Secondly guild sniffing is still fairly rampant and easy to do.

Lastly, you'll get outted the moment you offer your 'services' in any way, or sell to something to someone other than an npc. Eventually even friends and allies will sometimes ask you if you stole soap from x,y,z who lives on the otherside of the known.

I am not complaining mind you, always had fun with my theives.

It is just people really hate losing their virtual stuff. Being hunted is not the worst of it, it gets to the point players will rage and complain icly and oocly. Where they blame you for every single theft. And templars you've never met want to suddenly meet and have 'chats' with you and staff begin counting emotes per peek skill use to decide if you are abusing code and deserve to have karma docked.

It is certainly a fun but sometimes thankless role.

[Reell]

Cities spiral downward because when there are less people, there are less things to do there, and when there are less things to do there are less people, etc. This applies to thieves too. Less people, less targets and suspects, less anonymity when you steal, etc.

People having less time to play in general starts off this death loop, this is why Tuluk was closed and an attempt was made to consolidate players. At times when I recall these cities were bustling, there was a lot more interest in automated money making activities (clay pits, obsidian) in part because this was way back and people weren't fully aware of game mechanics and easier ways to make money. It created a virtuous cycle of having a lot of people in the city, more interesting plots (including crime plots), etc. Now that we are collectively getting busier and more knowledgeable as a playerbase (I haven't played in a year but more or less have the game map memorized), it's much easier to just go off to a corner of the game world and enjoy the mechanics there.

One idea is to automate activities in the city more or otherwise make cities mechanically interesting again so that people have a reason to be there. Have a guild leader who will give you a task to steal from (or kill) a randomly generated NPC in the 'rinth. Make automated tasks increasingly difficult so people have an incentive to band together. Maybe add a sparring arena near a tavern, where people can interact, make bets, etc. Maybe automate the ability for players to make gladiator characters and other city focused roles that nobles and leaders can use disposably, allowing players short on time to get involved in plots. Randomly stock shops with more materials so merchants can still thrive without hunters; remove raw material buy limits so hunters don't have to visit 5 different cities or two different apartments to offload goods from one hunting trip. A lot of players being away from cities might just boil down to a lack of interesting mechanics in cities.

[digitaleak]

I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. 

[Fredd]

I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. 

Most of what you said are put together by players. When i was a Tuluki Noble I had constant events being planned with the bards.

We had contests where the other nobles would judge and get to engage in some double talk with eachother.

We had Bards singing political songs in the bars, which meant new music for players to enjoy, new politics for the city to enjoy, and new creation for the bards to enjoy.

All this absolutely does entice people to play in the city.

[Lizzie]

I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. 

Restaurants: not a thing in Armageddon at all. There's food sold in every tavern, and most people don't buy any. In fact, most people don't even buy drinks there. Some do. But most don't.

Arena: there are fighting venues in both cities. They're currently closed due to lack of interest in both running them and participating in them (why would you want to run an arena event if no one ever shows up to watch it?)

Events: it's pretty demoralizing to be someone who puts together these things, only to have the same 4 PCs show up at them, and even then, they need to be coerced or reminded or bribed to show up because they're too busy spam-crafting in another tavern to be bothered.

IRL cities have advertisements, hotel rooms that rent by the night, electricity, mass transit, credit card payments, checks, and dollar bills so people don't have to carry their dinner and theatre money around in 1-penny coins everywhere. They have signs that people can read, discounts and coupons, tens of thousands of active people to show up and spend money. Armageddon has none of that.

Takeaway: you can't compare a fantasy city in a fantasy world in a text game to a real life city. You can contrast, but you can't compare. The only things the two have in common are: they are where the greater clusters of people are, they are seats of commerce, and they have official governments.  That's it. Everything else is different.

And yes all those other things are great ideas, but they need two completely different types of players to make them successful: players who are good at RUNNING these things, and players who are good at ATTENDING these things. And those players all have to be playing their respective characters in the same place, at the same time.