What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[dumbstruck]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

Yeah, there was a certain room that did this in Allanak years ago publicly accessible, but not with hiding, with other things, and people would purposefully walk through that room before specific shit, too.

[digitaleak]

Also, in some circumstances, people can be really oblivious to their surroundings. Like if you're drunk or very invested in what you're doing... you might not notice someone hiding under your bed right away. lol

I could see a fair balance being some sort of penalty to hiding in places that have limited spaces to hide.

[Synthesis]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.

Right, but if someone was stalking you in real life, they proooobably wouldn't follow you right under the streetlamp just because you were spamwalking.

[Pariah]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.

He's got a damn good point here.

[Miradus]

He does. It's a very valid point.

But you live in Bronze Age Detroit, populated with an underclass of exceptionally skilled thieves and murderers with a cultural bent towards harming you for fun, run by a cruel dragon overlord who only keeps you around to absorb your lifeforce, and managed by a thuggish police force who whose only real purpose is to keep you in line and fill their own pockets.

Go ahead. Ask Nenyuk if your hallway can be lit by more than 2 drops of burning Crisco on a clay plate so you don't get mugged.

[Classclown]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

[Riev]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

[Synthesis]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

I don't disagree with that.

The problem is I (the player) sometimes don't know that the next room I'm going into is in fact a square room without a closet where my character will suddenly and magically pop into visibility.

The solution would be something like the no-follow flag.  E.g. noshadow on--you will not shadow other characters into rooms that automatically break your hide.

[Trevalyan]

But you live in Bronze Age Detroit, populated with an underclass of exceptionally skilled thieves and murderers with a cultural bent towards harming you for fun, run by a cruel dragon overlord who only keeps you around to absorb your lifeforce, and managed by a thuggish police force who whose only real purpose is to keep you in line and fill their own pockets.

Speak for yourself. 

[Fredd]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?

This is the problem with the cities as I see it. Not people hiding, people complaining about stealth.

You got 3 types of archtypes really. Fighty, who spends their time mostly in the wilds, Crafty, that spends their time mostly in warehouses, and stealthy, who spend most of their time in bars.

For years we've been chipping away at a core archtype for the players in the city. So is it any wonder at all that less and less people are playing there if the things they would want to play there are less and less viable?


This isn't even just codedly. Thematicly, we are also pushing our stealthy players away. Just look at Tuluk. Back in the day, thieves were just as highly  respected as assassins. But if you read the modern documentation, thieves aren't shadow artists anymore, and cannot be considered masters, because killing is the opposite of thieving. In tuluk now, thieves are just... Thieves. With a tattoo that means "my fine is scaling, eventually I wont be able to pay it"

And there's no give on that scaling fine either. You can be a master thief, have done 20 missions for the templars against allanak, stolen copper for them. But fuck up 1 to many times, even with 20 years between fuckups. You lost your master.

why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?

[digitaleak]

why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?

Very interested in this.

[Windstorm]

Unfortunately, thieves kind of get the same treatment a lot of the time. The crime code is very all or nothing and people really like their stuff. Both for the thieves and for the thieved, it winds up with a lot negatives.

I do kind of wish, myself, it was easier to incapacitate without killing PCs. I'd like to see more people being taken prisoner, interrogated, beat up and kidnapped, ransomed, et cetera.

I get it, save me speech about how it's a harsh world and all, but to me it's not a harshness thing it's just more interesting than the status quo of "one second you're standing there, the next you're dead because I pulled out THE SUPERMOVE" but it becomes the standard way-to-play because nobody wants to lose and obviously that's In-Character also. It just makes any conflict between players feel a bit shallow and code-centric more than roleplay centric.

[Riev]

I HONESTLY believe its because assassins kill your PC and while its a shock and you have to get over it, you eventually move on.

When a thief steals your shit from you, you have to 'deal with it' somehow. Find the thief. Order a replacement. Find someone who can make or sell it. Earn the coins to get another one.


While yes, one allows you to 'continue on', a lot of players sincerely dislike being 'forced' into a roleplay they didn't want.

[Trevalyan]

When a thief steals your shit from you, you have to 'deal with it' somehow. Find the thief. Order a replacement. Find someone who can make or sell it. Earn the coins to get another one.


While yes, one allows you to 'continue on', a lot of players sincerely dislike being 'forced' into a roleplay they didn't want.

I think that sounds messed up. Ideally, it's incentive for thieves not to steal more than someone is ready to hunt you down over- especially if you leave calling cards that encourage the victim to pay a discounted price for their item back. But stealth killing characters, especially long-lived ones, is just messed up unless they REALLY had it coming.

[Riev]

The longer you're in your role, the more likely to are to have pissed someone off enough that their only seeming recourse is to have you removed.

I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.

Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.

[Rogerthat]

The longer you're in your role, the more likely to are to have pissed someone off enough that their only seeming recourse is to have you removed.

I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.

Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.

Agreed fully with this,

I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.

[Trevalyan]

I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.

Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.

There's a certain grey area there. You can try to manipulate people, and if the price is low enough they may think it's not worth the hassle to fight.

Start with too high an asking price, and you're just begging for someone to deal with you violently at the first opportunity. Or simply see people who don't bother with RP hooks, which is arguably worse.

[LetaSpringle]

why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?

Assassins don't remove roleplay they are a conduit for it.  I think PK isn't always assassination. If your character is assassinated it's because they made an impact somehow. That's continuing the plotline. Someone will look for them, be upset they're gone, or celebrate. Someone will profit from it, the roleplay will continue because of it. It stops for your character but if you made an impact so successfully that you get assassinated for it, then you've helped the roleplay of everyone else.

[Fredd]

why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?

Assassins don't remove roleplay they are a conduit for it.  I think PK isn't always assassination. If your character is assassinated it's because they made an impact somehow. That's continuing the plotline. Someone will look for them, be upset they're gone, or celebrate. Someone will profit from it, the roleplay will continue because of it. It stops for your character but if you made an impact so successfully that you get assassinated for it, then you've helped the roleplay of everyone else.

I went a bit heavy to drive the point home. I fully respect Assassin Rp, and what they bring to the game. But we have been leaning to that style of play over theft for a while now. I'm old I know.  I miss them old days when I could be considered a Master Shadow Artist as a thief with countless thefts and pranks under my belt, but only 1 or 2 Pk's in his whole career. But being considered a Master was somehting I wanted back then. it was a goal to strive for through RP.

A reason to sneak into alanak and pick nobles pockets, a reason so sneak things into a nobles office, next to the deeds to the Qinars they governed.

Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?

[Patuk]

Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?

No, I really don't.

[Riev]

Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?

No, I really don't.

His point is that they re-worked the Shadow Artist system to be more PK heavy than simple theft and he is not a fan. He would prefer it to be like the previous iteration, that failed, than the current one which has also failed.

[Patuk]

Oh, one more old set of mistakes to repeat. Okay.

[Fredd]

Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?

No, I really don't.

I'll break it down really simple for you.

Over the years we have played this game, we have seen people complain constantly about the stealth gameplay. Many different nerfs were put into place over the years. This includes no-hide areas (bad imo) and giving more people master scan and watch(a great answer IMO) among other things.
On top of these coded changes, we have uncoded changes, like the change to how Shadow Artists work in Tuluk, which put more focus on assassins, and less on Thieves. So you have this push to play a type of stealthy, assassin type. But what does the assassin type do? They kill. And when someone's city pc dies, what's the usual answer? Roll to a hunter/fighter pc that spends most of their time outside of the cities.

If you want to entice people to play in the cities, don't erode the archtypes that play there. I don't think I can lay this out in any more simple terms Patuk.

[Fredd]

Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?

No, I really don't.

His point is that they re-worked the Shadow Artist system to be more PK heavy than simple theft and he is not a fan. He would prefer it to be like the previous iteration, that failed, than the current one which has also failed.

What failed about the previous system? Let's start there and work out how to fix it.

[digitaleak]

I think there's a time and place for assassins, so I'm not against them. However I'm in agreeance that having more focus on theft and stealth would be interesting.