What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[Armaddict]

See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?

Remove templars from their position.  Then you have nobles.  Remove nobles from that position.  You turn into what, merchant houses?  Clans?  Crime syndicates, businesses, coalitions...whatever it may be, you're going to end up with a power structure.  That's what cities are.  Power structures.

It all comes back to that need for control of players over their PCs, and people preferring the predictable, safer anarchy outside the cities, or settlement centers where the power is in place but represented only via predictable code rather than unpredictable pillars of that power structure; in essence, these discussions of 'fixes' for templars in cities are essentially just power vacuum creations where whatever fills in that power will be free to do the same thing.  Again, that's the nature of the thing.  I think this hyper-awareness of 'I don't like templars' may be accurate, but ultimately misplaced; most of us don't have too much issues with power struggles in the sands until <insert person> kills <insert person> via <method>, and we dislike <method>.

I think the root of this problem is hard-coded power, and in particular the effectiveness of that coded power, that makes it so that the average player and average pc cannot realistically hold a grudge against a power structure and actually hope to have any influence over it.  I don't mean city-changing influence.  I mean that for average joe commoner to have a realistic vendetta against a templar, they need to go to great lengths that most players of today just aren't comfortable with; you will take giant risks, you will sometimes die a miserable death, you will not be able to make the great showdown scene because crimcode protects them, etc.

Granted, I think this is sensible, but overdone.  They should be difficult targets, they should be scary, but they should feel 'the fear' just as much as anyone else; they are in a different stratosphere of power and impact, but the general rule is that every caste, pc, player, whatever...they should all be playing the same die hard survival game, but in different arenas.  Making upper portions of the power structure more vulnerable to impacts from below, whether violence, economic, or political, is probably the best approach rather than trying to make huge changes to how the whole system works.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?

It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.

1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.

2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role.  immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad.  random fines? bad.  picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.

But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.

[Armaddict]

See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?

It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.

1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.

2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role.  immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad.  random fines? bad.  picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.

But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.

...this is already the case.  Generally speaking, if you think this is happening to some great degree, you're not really examining the environs very well, you're just seeing how it impacted you and assuming one of the above happened.

[Patuk]

See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?

Maybe staff could come down on the people who chase off others and tell them to cut it out. They could have their superiors stop taking their side. They could even say enough is enough sooner rather than later and tell them to play grebbers like the rest of us if they fuck up one too many times.

[DesertT]

I think if the Templar had a 3-6 month probationary period.

You get at least three months to prove yourself.  If you're crap before then, you're gone at the 3-month review.

If not, you'll get analyzed at the 6 month mark.

Shoot, this could carry on every 3 months if we really wanted.

[Windstorm]

I don't honestly think templars need any more pressure on them than they have. It's already a near impossible role to play to anyone's satisfaction.

Staffing's probably similar (sorry staff) and this would be horrible on them. Imagine being a templar player and pouring your heart into it but then getting force-stored. Even if it was deserved, we'd lose players that way.

And again, templars are near-impossible to play well enough that they don't get some level of complaints. It just kind of comes with the territory.

[Patuk]

Templars get so many applicants that I, frankly, just flat-out don't see that happening. You don't wanna? Ten other people applied, have at.

[BadSkeelz]

They actually don't, which is part of the reason for their varying quality. It's a hard role only a few players have really pulled off, and staff in good conscience can't just keep giving those players the role.

[Trevalyan]

They actually don't, which is part of the reason for their varying quality. It's a hard role only a few players have really pulled off, and staff in good conscience can't just keep giving those players the role.

While nobles have considerable power in both cities, Allanaki templars in particular have a level of power and impunity that no one should consider giving PCs if they aren't constantly monitored- like staff characters should be. It'd make a lot more sense if nobles could reliably (but NOT perfectly) count on immediate NPC templar assistance to immediately restore order whenever they had to. Failure to use this power responsibly would have massive repercussions for their houses, not just themselves.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah. I didn't want to repeat myself but I honestly don't think Templars should be a player role. They should be staff only and only animated to intervene decisively against uppity PCs (either noble, magick, or independent). Templars have so much authority in such a comparatively tiny gamespace that their missteps and shortcomings are magnified out of proportion.

[Trevalyan]

I'd say that removing Allanaki templars may be for the best. Tuluki templars less so- there's at least one PC templar who's absolutely great, and the nature of Tuluk means abuse of power is much less likely without swift correction.

If anything, starting with Allanak could be guidance for how the system would work, assuming there is a PC templar there right now.

[mansa]

In my opinion,

The templar role is primarily there to enforce the theme of Zalanthas.   They have absolute authority in the citystates and are meant to maintain the theme therein.  The role itself is meant to guide and push against the citizens, thieves, merchants, and foreign influences.  They are basically the main antagonist for most characters.

From the main page:
It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water.

The problem is that it is very hard to play against an antagonist that has unlimited resources, npcs, and magickal abilities.   And for the players of Templars, it's hard to be a good "badguy", because the nature of death in the Diku system.   It's just a blip and it's over for the player.


I think the templar role is necessary for maintaining the theme of the game, much like a raider in the sands is.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?

It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.

1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.

2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role.  immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad.  random fines? bad.  picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.

But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.

...this is already the case.  Generally speaking, if you think this is happening to some great degree, you're not really examining the environs very well, you're just seeing how it impacted you and assuming one of the above happened.

Well that's where you're wrong, because it's not like I've personally been Templar'd.

On the contrary, I just read what other people are saying, I listen and think about it, and I come to the conclusion: something is wrong.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that goes both ways, and while I'm sure there are many instances of Templars playing the role properly, staff breathing down their neck constantly, and a feeling of no one ever being satisfied...  The fact that there are more than a handful of people who claim there is/was abuse, and an even larger number of people disillusioned by the whole system, it speaks volumes.

Ideally there already are systems in place to prevent abuse, but apparently either they aren't rigorous enough, and/or some people may be given one too many chances?

[najdorf]

I think diagnosis is wrong. People do not like their characters to face stress. The current obvious form of stress in cities are templars, thats why they are on spotlight.
If I make a character that aims to terrorize merchants and successfully deliver it, then they will complain about that.
If someone takes on a mission to eradicate mages, and starts succeeding it, mages will complain and find whatever reason they need. You can justify anything after all.

[MarshallDFX]

This thread has been going on for a while and my sentiment already expressed, but my two cents:

I like templars.  I like the theme, and I like to be afraid of these tyrannical jerks, or trailing in their subserviently footsteps for the advantages that might bring.   They are the element of danger within the cities, instead of being poisoned by a scorpion or ganked by a stack of spiders or whatever.

I think cities could use a few more rewarding things to grind other than joining the Byn to spar, being a thief etc or dung mining etc.  More things with a progression, things to forage, little quests that can be done etc.  I'm kinda a noob, but I would hardly know how to survive (let alone thrive) without leaving the gates for grebbing.

[Armaddict]

I think diagnosis is wrong. People do not like their characters to face stress. The current obvious form of stress in cities are templars, thats why they are on spotlight.
If I make a character that aims to terrorize merchants and successfully deliver it, then they will complain about that.
If someone takes on a mission to eradicate mages, and starts succeeding it, mages will complain and find whatever reason they need. You can justify anything after all.

This is pretty much what I was getting at with the mention of character control issues.  We all have 'em, just some people handle it better than others.

It's actually pretty easy to understand why this is, and will continue to be an issue.  By design, across the entire game, it happens.

Templar A decides to use the jail as a meeting cell against Criminal/Commoner/Hunter B because he intends to coerce them into providing some service.  Note here, this is actually pretty much standard-operation templar method to provide and include people into content.  However, player of B has bad experiences with templars in the past, so they are immediately on edge here.  Player of A has not yet fucked up, has not yet gone against anything, and is actually doing what good templars do, roping people into plots and providing 'shit to do'.  However, B grinds their gears in that meeting cell, is rebellious, and basically through roleplay seals their own demise.  They blame A.  A had no real recourse other than just pretending the whole thing didn't happen, which...is a pretty huge ask in a roleplaying game.  A has now given B another bad experience...but it's not their fault in the slightest.

Twisting on that, Templar A is minding their own business when a few people over an hour reach their mind to talk about character B and some supposed slight, crime, or statement is made.  A goes to bring in B and find out wtf is up.  He either lets B go, tries to recruit B in same as former scenario, or kills B.  If he lets B go, players of C, D, E, and F are all pissed off that this person they thought they had a dead ringer for elimination for somehow survived an ordeal with a templar that should have been inexcusable.  If he tries to recruit B, B sees the whole thing as a scam to remove their character agency.  A kills B, B is pissed off at the whole thing, C, D, E, and F are all happy, and we end up where we are.

It's not really that hard to wrap your head around.  It -is- hard to drop a grudge.

I think cities could use a few more rewarding things to grind other than joining the Byn to spar, being a thief etc or dung mining etc.  More things with a progression, things to forage, little quests that can be done etc.  I'm kinda a noob, but I would hardly know how to survive (let alone thrive) without leaving the gates for grebbing.

This is the big deal.  As noted earlier, the city is supposed to be the oasis, not the other way around; the city is life.  Look at what led to cities in real life, historically, and that's what cities provide here when the wilderness/world politics are tuned correctly.  It offers stability, trade, other means of work, safety, security, and culture.  Once again, with the wilds being 'predictable' to veterans of the game, it is generally safer to pit yourself against predictable npc's than the politics/randomness of other players.

The city, when filled with players, does offer all those things.  Right down to people who sell scrab meat for cheaper than the shop does, so that you can get relationships with hunters if you're not in a clan, and where hunters can sell to shops for good prices if everyone else seems to be in a clan.  There are not enough clans.  There are not enough people focused on non-skill-based progression (hurray for visible skills, the worst thing to happen to Armageddon as far as player mentality).  There are not enough mini-plots (this ties in with not enough clans).

There is just not enough actual activity aside from 'business as usual' merchanting, hunting, grebbing, and when cities are under-played, the 'business as usual' grinds to a halt for PC's, resulting in no activity at all.

[Lotion]

the only interesting secrets for players to uncover in cities are largely only distributed to sponsored roles (i.e. Templars and Nobles). there is very little incentive for spade type players to play long term in cities. the only reason I would play a Noble or Templar aside to meet the leadership karma criterion is because there are things that a player can most consistently learn about the game while playing a Templar or Noble. Certain gemmed or aides could also learn some of those secrets, but not all of them and not with anywhere close to the same consistency as the sponsored roles they are servants to. My wilderness map spreadsheet isn't complete, so I'd rather splat 50 day 0 toons with pregen descriptions to map the thornlands than play most city characters. I think splatting day 0 characters is probably the most efficient way to map extremely dangerous locations when optimizing for earth time spent.

[Supified]

A lot of people are talking about templars being removed, which isn't something I'm seeing a lot of people even advocating for.  Rules changes and breaking ideas like permdeath and no retcon were mentioned, but not taking them out.  Though I do think maybe PC militia and no PC templar is a reasonable idea.

Here's the thing, cities don't just clear out cause no one wants to play around Templars, No, people leave the game entirely.  This is not a thing that Arm can tolerate and furthermore, the people left, well of course they're advocating status quo, as are many in this post.

[Riev]

A lot of people are talking about templars being removed, which isn't something I'm seeing a lot of people even advocating for.

Heh. First time on the GDB? One person with a bad idea makes a suggestion, entire thread becomes about how that isn't a good idea.

Entice me to play in the city by facilitating my gameplay and ideas.

fa·cil·i·tate
verb
verb: facilitate; 3rd person present: facilitates; past tense: facilitated; past participle: facilitated; gerund or present participle: facilitating

    make (an action or process) easy or easier.


If I am engaged in a plot line, or something I want my character to engage in, staff and leadership could facilitate my gameplay better.

Example:
My character's name is Gavin. I want to RP being a Tuluki Arena Fighter. Not for blood and spray, but for art and skill. He wants to be a WWE Professional Wrestler and put on shows. To do so, he needs to learn to fight, and how to wrestle the toughest of opponents. He joins the Byn. The Byn facilitates his progression towards fighting other people, learning to subdue/wrestle, etc.
Later, he is enticed to work for House Salarr, because of the pay and promise of increased access to tougher opponents than simple Byn Runners. He spends some time as a fighting Hunter, but is stationed in Allanak. Longing for Tuluk, he gets a transfer to Tuluk and is allowed to leave the House after a term of service. Salarr facilitated some level of roleplay.
In Tuluk, wanting to be an Arena fighter, he becomes a partisan to a Chosen Lord Tenneshi (formerly Negean) in exchange for sponsorship into being an arena fighter. Gavin focuses on "Close Quarters Combat" while in this role, learning how to use knife weapons (so he can become Solidus Snake). House Tenneshi has facilitated his goals while using him to work on their own.

In working up his skills with knife weapons, his player requests some 'custom order' knife weapons from Salarr. Staff get wind that he branched knife weapons, sees that he did it using NPC Critters, and temp-bans him from the game.


This was my story of how the cities facilitated my gameplay, but staff was able to stymie it immediately without conversation or talk. PC was stored shortly thereafter. (Yes, the method he was using was twinky as fuck, but to this point after 3 years in the Byn, and time in Salarr, there were no PCs he could train with)

[Classclown]

There needs to be more types of venues in Allanak, restaurants (maybe pc ownable?) or something, to go to besides a tavern. Maybe a fighter's pit(Salarr)/gambling+entertainment(Kurac)/dining(Kadius) GMH collab venue with a visible VIP Noble section (where Commoners can see but not hear them). It could replace the Arboretum.

[Riev]

There needs to be more types of venues in Allanak, restaurants (maybe pc ownable?) or something, to go to besides a tavern. Maybe a fighter's pit(Salarr)/gambling+entertainment(Kurac)/dining(Kadius) GMH collab venue with a visible VIP Noble section (where Commoners can see but not hear them). It could replace the Arboretum.

If the MMH Terash can have the Atrium, why cant the GMH Kadius own THE place to eat in all the city?

[betweenford]

Nenyuk owns the gladiator and gaj but yeah... Good luck getting that plot past a templar.

[LidlessEye]

Salarr owned archery range with a small entrance fee, and inside shitty quality training arrows etc on sale for reasonable prices.

[betweenford]

Personally I'd be all for pc templars not being a thing anymore but that is very unlikely to happen because theyre kinda sorta integral to sorc-templar-psionicist game balance as well as a dark sun theme thing.

Assertions that people cannot handle templars really doesn't help the conversation. Oftentimes it is because templar players get incredibly overbearing as antagonists, especially situations where they've already carved or claimed a victory; theres a certain point any antagonist character needs to really adopt if they want to carry about actual presence without being something you oocly loathe to encounter. Alot of arm antags suffer from the same problem that if you give the role to the wrong person they can just kill play in an area. Antags need to give the people they're antagonizing some breathing room, keep mystique, reserve and throw around their weight at opportune moments etc. More often than not templars just kind of mill around until they get bored and harass a target until it becomes oocly grating, and eventually culminates in death. Or they're a dude who slings magicks around because its cool, theyre a skillset. I've seen alot of good, bad, outright annoying and oocly disrespectful templar play and its really painful to see them dish out shitty deaths when they hold all the power in a scene they've won in and its just them clocking in the hours while they end the life of some especially long lived character.

And then staff side with the templars under pretenses of like "you arent owed a good scene when you die", when more often than not its the LEAST any player could ask for. And then that player quits the game, and staff wonder why people quit the game. I've seen so many low effort templar kills that just inspired people to quit on the spot.

[LindseyBalboa]

Templars really only work, I think, if cities are full of PCs. If there are other templars. If there are nobles. If there is a full militia, and criminals.

Tuluk was supposed to give Allanak something to fight against, but what it did instead was take away the PCs that gave templars something to do (for the purpose of this conversation only; no hate being directed at anyone up there enjoying roleplay).

If Tuluk is Allanak's foil (and vice versa) there needs to be the ability to have daily struggle, conflict, and day-to-day life rp about that conflict in volume enough to replace or exceed the roleplay volume in those categories that having actual pcs in Allanak produced.

And I actually agree after a lot of thought with the comment that said ministries were a bad idea, as well, but only in hindsight and if cities are not full.

Templars, even well-played ones, are MUCH more oppressive if there are aren't enough of them for them to be fighting one another. If there aren't
nobles to plot with or against. If there aren't active criminals running around. Without a lot of things to do (hence ministries being a bad idea in hindsight) and a lot of PCs to interact with.

Templar theme by nature is oppressive, and that's okay. However if there are few PCs in the city and nothing for templars to do, that oppressive nature becomes naturally focused on a very small amount of the playerbase. Players that didn't particularly 'like' the oppressive theme but enjoyed city play and could generally go characters without having their lives changed by a templar PC might now have every PC's life touched, and just decide to leave the city completely. Players that enjoyed the oppressive theme or being criminals and eventually losing (like myself) will get tired of it being every time on every PC in a city without anyone else to soak up the oppression - either playing careful PCs that don't interact as much or just not playing in cities.

Suggested solution:

Role call some templars with the express purpose of creating plots alongside staff for city-PCs and building up roleplay that is more collaborative in nature. Nudge templars to stop bothering with crimes and oppression themselves and start requiring it to be handled through other PCs. When a templar does want a bribe, go for 50 sid not 50,000. Get active templars back into Allanak who are focused on making plots for the PCs and not for the templars - and don't let templar PCs be an even number. They should always be at strife with one another and by extension the plots they build for PCs should give those PCs conflict with one another to overcome.