What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[Riev]

If the player numbers in Allanak get above 5 again during prime time, a neutral speak easy may be a worthy investment. But until that happens it isn't.

This is essentially what the Atrium should be.

I don't see either how this new thing behaves differently than any other meeting place or how this remotely fits Atrium's description/purpose.

Admittedly, I always thought it would be cool if the Atrium had a 'sponsored' tavern where you'd go to find those people who are interested or CAPABLE of being aide-ly.
Then I found out they DID have one, and NOBODY went there. Ever. So they sold it.

... Just saying.

[LidlessEye]

I think broadly speaking, making city guilds more interesting and capable of more would improve populations in cities. In addition to that, a satisfaction system where food, drink and spice increase satisfaction, which when maxed provides buffs. Satisfaction decays so if it is too low the character could suffer slight debuffs due to 'depression'. I don't think it would be too hard to code in, given code already exists for 'Relationship to Land'. Now, if city based guilds, especially the crafters had recipes/facilities for food and drink unavailable to wilderness types, then wilderness types would have to visit/trade with cities to get those luxuries, much like how it happened with tribes and civilizations irl. Give the city folk a bargaining chip. Wilderness types already have one in the form ot being unparalleled when it comes to aqquiring materials.

[roughneck]

People play where it's easiest.

Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states. It's better for your survivability as a wasteland character.

Make it more survivable, and better for skill gains/power to play a city based adventure/outdoor PC and players will start making city based PC's.

[Riev]

People play where it's easiest.

Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states. It's better for your survivability as a wasteland character.

Make it more survivable, and better for skill gains/power to play a city based adventure/outdoor PC and players will start making city based PC's.

Related:
Power in a city kind of requires staff assistance to ensure that political clout is overt and shows consequences.
In the desert, strongest guy with a group behind him wins.

Find a way to better a city character's power (or lack thereof) with more consequences available.
Guild Leaders should not be tucking tail at the first sign of a soldier every damn day (LEADERS, I said).
GMH folks should not be worried about getting bar-dwarfed because three bosses ago someone failed to deliver.

[Dresan]

People play where it's easiest.

Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states.

I am not sure about easier but probably safer if you know what you are doing.

This might be an unintended consequence of the poison changes. For better or worse, peraine was a big equalizer, one of the few things that  could stop a skilled warrior and or mage as easily as bash could kill the merchant classes. You could negotiate with a templar but not negotiate with that flying peraine arrow to the neck.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I've really enjoyed some of the batshit and cool as cucumber Templars over time. Samos.  Elithan.  Eunolia.  Feliya (sp?).  Validos.  Lyvren.  Nektol.  Sahtuk.  Etc etc.

Thank you for putting me (Sahtuk) into a class with those others. He was one of my all time favorite PCs to play!

[SpyGuy]

I like the idea of staff enticing players into the cities. The recent change of Byn special app Troopers is a great addition.  It still requires a special app though.

I believe the root of this issue is that play outside the cities has been incentivized by staff decisions in the past few years.  I don't believe this was intentional but it's a combination of these factors that have led to lower city populations.  Especially since city roles tend to be structured around group dynamics and wilderness roles are more solo, dead cities really hurt the city players.

A lot of people have described push factors that make them want to leave cities (templars, clan rules, etc) but there are pull factors too. Things that incentivize playing outside cities and that any work to entice players into have to compete with:

1) Magick subclasses being everywhere: I won't rant about this here but it's easier than ever to play a wilderness mage. One city kills mages. The other gems them. So if you don't want to play a gemmed then you're out in the wastes.
2) Isolated roles: Specifically things revolving around the mul outpost and desert elf tribes. I've some experience with both and they're actually really fun to play around. You can't expect to offer a new feature of the game to make an isolated area exciting and that not to draw players from other areas. Armageddon's population in different areas fluctuates as people die/store but this is just opening up one more place to pull people from cities.
3) Group dynamics: This is a game built on interaction. When it becomes easier to find that interaction out of a city than inside one, it'll pull more players to choose doing that either IC or OOC for their next character. Also if you're finding a hard time finding interaction in a city you're more likely to play a character that can solo, which wilderness roles excel at.

My point here is that if we want the cities to be where people are, they need to become the most interesting places to play. Plots need to revolve around them and be of a scale that they could involve everyone playing in cities from the templars to an indy grebber in some capacity.  The cities could also probably use more bite outside their walls, recently it seems like the cities (on a PC level) fear the wastes more than the other way around. I think that should be true of your indy grebber but not when the city is motivated to action. It's not that fun being on the losing side and well, if you lose your city based role you might just roll up something different next.

This isn't to diminish the accomplishments of any players that have made these roles outside the cities more interesting. You're all great. I hope the cities entice you next character round.

Edit to add: I loved Sahtuk man! So scary but spared my life at least twice haha

[Inks]

I try to play 1: 1 city to wilderness the last few years but my pcs (only in recent years) seem to last between half a year to two years. I can only stay alive IRL so long.

[Armaddict]

stuff

Yessireebobjoe.

1.  Less hospitable wilds.  It's a necessity.
2.  City centricity. 
3.  Me playing Tektolnes.

[roughneck]

Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.

Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.

Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.

Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.

Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.

Freedom should be punished!

[Kestria]

Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines  of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.

[Patuk]

Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.

Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.

Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.

Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.

Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.

Freedom should be punished!

Shaking people down and raising prices on people is going to make them olay outside more, not less. These things are the direct opposite of what would draw them to play in either city.

[roughneck]

Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.

Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.

Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.

Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.

Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.

Freedom should be punished!

Shaking people down and raising prices on people is going to make them olay outside more, not less. These things are the direct opposite of what would draw them to play in either city.

Eh, if it's easier to be a House-Affiliated city-based hunter, meaning cheaper supplies, safer life, less grief, then I think people would be more likely to play a city based hunter than a non-city based hunter.

People play tribal/Red Storm hunters because raiders are more friendly (or cooperative), resources are easier to come by, and skills are easier to increase. If you flip this, people will play in cities.

At some point, it became easier to be an outlaw/enemy of Allanak, rather than the other way around.

[Riev]

Thought:

Do you feel that city plots are stale or few and far between due to the fact that the cities have to maintain some sense of normalcy? Like, you create an outdoor plot and its something that might live for a short while but is easily retconned or 'destroyed' when your character dies or moves on.

But in a city, any plot you might engage in will change the city in a way that is noticed if it disappears. (See: Consortium of Wonder)

To me it seems like a lot of city plots, by necessity, are about building and adding to what exists and/or changing how the city approaches a certain event. Non-city characters are about building relationships, trade, engaging big scary PvE beasts and sometimes even being an antagonist to others just for fun. If I'm playing in Tuluk and want to 'antagonize' any PC or NPC group it has to go through a lot of staff work and decisions about whether the game world is ready to be changed.

Is that just me?

[Brokkr]

To me, city plot primarily means politics.  Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.

[Patuk]

If city plots mean politics, they're going to be fairly empty for a good while longer now. The majority of PCs will always be vaguely combat-related souls, and not people who relate to that stuff well

[Armaddict]

To me, city plot primarily means politics.  Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.

There is a WHOLE LOT more that can be done with city plots than politics.  There are all sorts of situations, long term and short term, that can be created to make action-oriented or non-political people enjoy time in cities.  Politics doesn't exist without those people.  They need strings to connect before they can tug on them.

[SpyGuy]

To me, city plot primarily means politics.  Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.

I think this is a very narrow conception a city plot.  It may involve politics at a higher level but at other levels involve anything from resource fetch quests to combat. Theft, assassination, all that good stuff. Sometimes the politics is the least interesting and least involved part of it.

I wasn't really talking about 'city plots' anyways. I was talking about staff plots.  Centering those around the cities, not wilderness roles. Creating plots that can be engaged with and experienced by a broad set of PCs, particularly giving mundanes some sort of role.  That's how you might bring people back to the cities. The past few years have been a series of decisions incentivizing play away from them and so here we are.

[Riev]

Lets use Allanak for example, because Allanak:

Noble Houses
Merchant Houses
PC Clans
Templarate/AoD
The Guild/Rinthi elves

That is five groups that hold what ... about a dozen clans that all have their own goals, ambitions, enemies, etc.
I think there could be more city plots that cater to these groups that do not necessarily change things on the political scale.

I enjoy the social interaction of the game, not NECESSARILY the combat portion. Combat has code to determine winning or losing, social doesn't have any rolls to it. Its all in how you, the player, express yourself. I think this non-coded/non-supported section of things needs a boost.

[Inks]

I don't always want to play a minion and sometimes I want to affect the gameworld. You have no say in that in the city without a metric ton of work and danger and rivalry with people in the same city.

Like I said, lately I play cities to outside 1: 1, trying to something in the city done is so hard, and if a staff decides they don't like you or what you are bringing to the gameworld or if what you are doing isn't realistic despite other similar examples it is really easy for them to throw a spanner in everything.

Outdoors is overall way less staff reliant too, and that is relaxing. I could see a certain staffer targeting me with animations and clan manipulations and other stuff a while back and that is way more obvious when you are outdoors.

One of the less harmful examples is I have had half a dozen mounts killed by unavoidable instant death animations in the last few years. It is funny the first few times and it is just a mount but as an example of noticable stuff you get what I mean. You can at least see it. Not complaining about this fairly harmless example.

Most staff are excellent and I don't want to throw shade on the whole team.

I have confidence these issues will be in the past though. And I am sure the cities will fill out again soonish as confidence and trust returns.

In terms of what to do in the short term...Give AoD and Legion and other lifebound clans 10 year tours of duty sort of like the Romans. Don't make these positions lifebound. Aides too, with the understanding that they can no longer work with other nobles after this time of service ends.

[Down Under]

In terms of what to do in the short term...Give AoD and Legion and other lifebound clans 10 year tours of duty sort of like the Romans. Don't make these positions lifebound. Aides too, with the understanding that they can no longer work with other nobles after this time of service ends.

The Legions have been this way for about 10 RL years. As a Private you sign on for "Tours of Duty" (Verbatim) lasting anywhere from 4-8 years per tour. A life oath isn't for life, it's a 30 year commitment. Veterans retire and are typically Levy Elders, able to attend Levy training and events, and offer their experiences.

AoD (at least the newest version, particularly at war time) I think signed people on for contracts that renewed every year. If it isn't still that way, it should be, I agree. Life Oaths really shouldn't be for anything besides officer track stuff, and even then, I like that the Legions is 30 years, not 'until you are old and feeble'.

[Pariah]

I can't speak for the Legion specifically, but I do know that clans that used to be lifesworn, had updated docs that said things akin to, "Only the highest levels of players will be lifesworn." I think they are trying to limit that because nobody liked it.  I could be wrong, but I would check with your clan staff, might be that the documentation is outta date.

[Tuannon]

Was going to post in the Tuluk thread, but it's better here:

You'll find that the problem with Tuluk and the problem with Allanak are the same problem.

'I might be a playing a junior noble, but my plots are more important than yours'

This is also an issue with high ranking commoners, but much less frequently because nobody plays those long term.

And the like. Also the idea that Titled Lady had XYZ perks when she was flaunting her wealth at the arena, so you should as well. Even though you probably have no idea how much staff negotiating, political wrangling and taking hits she did to get them.

There is also the matter of getting away with small things and then thinking that that is now the norm, just because the game lets you do it doesn't mean you should necessarily be doing it on a regular basis.
Exploiting stuff just means people in the future will have to jump through more hoops to get their cool shit done, so instead of apping for a Kuraci Dealer they just play Generic Tribal #84

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I haven't played in nearly three years. I had only one character and spent all of my time in cities. Maybe about a third of my time was spent in Allanak. About half my time in Luir's. And the rest in Red Storm.

Generally speaking, there just isn't much going on in cities. Not much to do, compared to out in the wilderness, as many people have said. I remember walking along, exploring some side streets and the various shops.. but not much to do, otherwise.

Cities are, ironically, extremely unsafe compared to the harsh wilderness. It's super easy to get stolen from and an apartment ransacked. I've contemplated coming back to this game a few times, but I decide not to, because there's literally nowhere safe to keep anything, aside from the bank and a clan compound. It's frustrating wanting to be out there and interact and be social, but then either a) no one's there, b) you get robbed c) people hate your character because of their race. Or a mul could just straight up try to kill you as you're minding your own business at the bar.

I didn't have a great experience being in a clan either, with my first supervisor being MIA for the vast majority of time, and when they were around, were always swamped with catching up with other things. The second supervisor I had was a psychopath. Killed two other clan members, then I happened to piss him off too for literally doing nothing wrong. Several assassination attempts later and my character is dead as well. In her apartment, no less.

I look back fondly on some nice and not-so-nice experiences I had, the various other characters I met, and a few exciting events. But I still have a bad taste in my mouth and don't think I want to go through that again.

Less about me, more about the topic:

I think the issue with cities is they are heavily dependent on community involvement, and actual gameplay is a mere afterthought. The overall experience can be fun and exciting when there's many players to interact with, but unfortunately, when the gameplay is other people and there are no other people, there's nothing to do.

But even if there were many other players in a city, there's a problem: all the rampant theft, murder, and arbitrary executions makes people not want to play. It makes them want to hole up somewhere safe, where they can't be killed, completely unable to do a goddamn thing about it. So even if we did have a large number of players attracted to cities, for whatever reasons, they would quickly get driven away again. As said, it's a player problem. But it's made possible by game design flaws.

We've already talked about making thievery harder. We've talked about making apartments safer and nohide zones. It's at least a good start, and not the end of the world for thieves, as I'm sure they can just run away if caught regardless. The idea isn't to nerf thievery into the the ground, making it impossible, but to disincentivize people from gathering less. Assassination attempts are also problematic, especially when the would-be assassin attacks a target in broad daylight, and there are absolutely zero repercussions for them.

With these old tired complaints cropping up again and again, I hope something will actually be done about them one day.

The next part of the problem is just making cities more attractive for people to come to. Have things to do there.

We could have unique trader NPCs: perhaps sometimes they are selling a very rare and unique item, or have a stock of some certain item that is abnormally cheap. On the flip side, we could have some traders looking for certain goods or commodities; they will pay handsomely for the items they request, for a limited time. These two simple ideas could help a number of people: crafters, who now may have access to some goods they would have to rely on PCs for; merchants, who like to buy low and sell high; grebbers/hunters, who now essentially have a NPC they can turn items into for a reward; thieves, who may want to steal from these merchant NPCs, or steal the desired items from others to then sell to them.

Someone also mentioned jobs to guard a certain area, or conversely, thieve from it.

You could have a bounty office where certain PCs or NPCs are listed. Essentially, hunting a unique NPC/PC criminal and bring back their head for a reward. Other merchants and nobles going to and fro, perhaps good targets to steal from, or they may hire you as temporary body guards. Rat/pest hunting. Sewer cleaning.

We could have some courier jobs, bringing a package from a sender to recipient, or written notes between noble/merchant houses. We could have some jobs as being a preacher, where you must go from street location to street location, preaching the virtues of the Highlord and collecting alms. Carpenters, Armorers, Clothiers, all looking for apprentices or unskilled helpers to aid with their work. Skirmishes between gangs.

Sort of a hybrid between city/wilderness gameplay: a job to patrol some roads nearby the cities to keep travelers safe.  Or a job to transport some special goods from one city to another. Accepting these jobs might cause monsters to spawn.

There's a lot of ideas here, and yet, we need many more. We need to bring the cities to life. Make an incentive of being there, aside from other players, and make interaction with other players not so ridiculously lethal or annoying.

Good luck.

[Inks]

Cities seem good at the mo, it all comes and goes. Game on.