Crafting High Quality Weapons Q&A

[Halaster]

See this:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

If you have questions about this, here's the place to ask them!

[Lutagar]

Is it possible for independents to craft amazing items?

If not, are you concerned that the clanned requirement could drive away players who might have previously played mundane independent crafters at a time where mage population is overrepresented among pcs?

[Halaster]

Is it possible for independents to craft amazing items?

If not, are you concerned that the clanned requirement could drive away players who previously might have previously played mundane independent crafters at a time where mage population is overrepresented among pcs?

No, it is not possible for independents to make amazing.

No, I'm not concerned about it driving away independents who want to craft amazing quality.  I don't expect that will happen on any noticeable scale.  It's pretty common knowledge that only Salarr can craft "the best" at everything.  We're also allowing tribals to have one type of weapon they specialize in that allows them to also craft amazing, but only that one.

[Krath]

Alright so, I custom craft a Good item1, Very good item1, and amazing Custom Crafted item1.
1. Can I continue to craft Amazing Customer Crafted Item1 going forward or am I only able to make 1 and repeat the process making GI2, VG2?

[Halaster]

Alright so, I custom craft a Good item1, Very good item1, and amazing Custom Crafted item1.
1. Can I continue to craft Amazing Customer Crafted Item1 going forward or am I only able to make 1 and repeat the process making GI2, VG2?

This is rules for submitting Custom Craft recipes.  Once your recipe is in the game, you can craft it all you want.  Which is why the requirement for not super easy to obtain items.

[Halaster]

Are there already established tribes that can make XYZ weapon really well, or is it undecided?

As of this writing, none have been established.  Tribal clans should work with their staff to decide on what their specialty should be.

[Halaster]

Does that essentially mean that to craft Amazing weapons, you'll need to be a fully trained tier one?  Regarding that weapon type, of course.

Yes, to submit "above average" recipe, you need to be low advanced in the weapon crafting skill.
To submit "good" the next month, you'll need to be at high advanced
To submit "very good" the next month, you'll need to be at low master

[Riev]

Confirming how I read it:

A Master Swordmaker, clanned Salarr, can only submit 1 "amazing" level craft every 3 months. Once it has been approved, it can be made ad nauseum

[Halaster]

Confirming how I read it:

A Master Swordmaker, clanned Salarr, can only submit 1 "amazing" level craft every 3 months. Once it has been approved, it can be made ad nauseum

Correct.

[Brokkr]

Does that essentially mean that to craft Amazing weapons, you'll need to be a fully trained tier one?  Regarding that weapon type, of course.

Yes, to submit "above average" recipe, you need to be low advanced in the weapon crafting skill.
To submit "good" the next month, you'll need to be at high advanced
To submit "very good" the next month, you'll need to be at low master

To put this another way that is perhaps easier to understand:

• To submit "amazing" recipe, you have to be Artisan, Dune Trader or Fence.  This is the best level these folks can do it at.
• To submit "very good" recipe, the above can. Also Craftsperson, Adventurer, Pilferer if they have the Subclass Custom Crafter, or crafting recipe capable extended subclass (Master Woodworker, Master Weaponsmith) can, and it is the best level these folks can do it at.
• To submit "good" recipe, the above can. Also Laborer if they have the Subclass Custom Crafter can, and it is the best level these folks can do it at.
• To submit "above average" recipe, the above can. Also Soldier if they have the Subclass Custom Crafter can, and it is the best level these folks can do it at.

[lostinspace]

Are there already established tribes that can make XYZ weapon really well, or is it undecided?

As of this writing, none have been established.  Tribal clans should work with their staff to decide on what their specialty should be.

Will these specialties be locked in based on feedback from current tribal members forever, or will there be regular periods where these specialties can change? And once they're made will they be announced publically? I don't want to make a Sun Runner with dreams of making the most badass spear only to find out that Sun Runner's specialty is knives.

Additionally are the specialties limited by craft, or could a clan have a specialty in say, Horror Shell, which gives them more options for what they make, as long as it involves the rare material?

[Halaster]

Are there already established tribes that can make XYZ weapon really well, or is it undecided?

As of this writing, none have been established.  Tribal clans should work with their staff to decide on what their specialty should be.

Will these specialties be locked in based on feedback from current tribal members forever, or will there be regular periods where these specialties can change? And once they're made will they be announced publically? I don't want to make a Sun Runner with dreams of making the most badass spear only to find out that Sun Runner's specialty is knives.

Additionally are the specialties limited by craft, or could a clan have a specialty in say, Horror Shell, which gives them more options for what they make, as long as it involves the rare material?

Once decided by staff with input from players, yes it will be permanently locked in.  I'm not sure about publicly announcing it, but the tribe would for sure know.  And so you would find out when you request documentation. 

Limited by a single type of weapon.

[Nao]

Do we need 4 (or 5, or whatever) different ingredients, or can we make a sword out of one Gaj tooth and four packs of the same black dye?

[Halaster]

Do we need 4 (or 5, or whatever) different ingredients, or can we make a sword out of one Gaj tooth and four packs of the same black dye?

Some repeat items are fine yeah.  The purpose to this is so that if someone CC's a high quality weapon and has a recipe, that it's not easy to mass produce.  That each one takes some effort to produce to try and prevent "flooding the market" with tons of really high quality stuff.

[Halaster]

If I'm working my way up to a certain weapon as my best craft, do the previous two leading up to it have to be the exact same thing?

No, but similar weapon type (bludgeon vs piercing, etc).  So for example, if you're an independent crafter and want to make a very good greatsword, you could first CC a longsword, then second CC a bastard sword, then finally CC a greatsword.  Keep it in the family, so to speak.

[Tuannon]

Did the battle staff finally die?

I don't see a halberd type weapon in the selection.

[BadSkeelz]

The old polearms that I've looked at since the change appear to have been changed to other weapon types. I don't think there are any of those old advanced weapon types anymore.

[Halaster]

Did the battle staff finally die?

I don't see a halberd type weapon in the selection.

They technically still exist, and we may bring them back for specific scenarios.  But no one has the weapon skills to use them currently, and so they're not going to be craftable as high quality weapons.

[Classclown]

Are GMH custom orders an exception to having to craft the same type of weapon in succession? If a noble wants a fancy dagger and the next month a templar wants a fancy flail...

[mansa]

Are GMH custom orders an exception to having to craft the same type of weapon in succession? If a noble wants a fancy dagger and the next month a templar wants a fancy flail...

If you are speaking about "QUALITY" of weapons - no, they do not have an exception.

Confirming how I read it:

A Master Swordmaker, clanned Salarr, can only submit 1 "amazing" level craft every 3 months. Once it has been approved, it can be made ad nauseum

Correct.

[Riev]

This means if you know that your local Salarri Crafter just custom-designed an amazing-level brick war-oven... you might have to wait at least 3 months to get YOUR amazing through, and thats -if- available.

[DesertT]

This means if you know that your local Salarri Crafter just custom-designed an amazing-level brick war-oven... you might have to wait at least 3 months to get YOUR amazing through, and thats -if- available.

Your brick war-oven does UNSPEAKABLE damage!

[wizturbo]

I think there should be ways to make one-off weapons at Amazing quality more often.  Trade off between it being a recipe vs.  a single craft.

[Brokkr]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

[cnemus]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Amazing is a natural language description word and when you look at an 'amazing' weapon that is how it looks. It seems a bit of a contrivance to just not use the word for some reason.

Why would that be something karma is tied to?

[Armaddict]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Amazing is a natural language description word and when you look at an 'amazing' weapon that is how it looks. It seems a bit of a contrivance to just not use the word for some reason.

Why would that be something karma is tied to?

(Edited here:  I make this sound like I know the motivation when I actually meant to posit my own interpretation.) He's talking about karma being related to trying to 'game' the system or run some sort of meta thing where you're playing mechanics more than the game.  The impression I get is that 'amazing' quality items are supposed to be few and far between, not something that the playerbase is all formulating a way to get their hands on one.

[Brokkr]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Amazing is a natural language description word and when you look at an 'amazing' weapon that is how it looks. It seems a bit of a contrivance to just not use the word for some reason.

Why would that be something karma is tied to?

Every word we are using here is part of a natural language, not sure how that is relevant. It isn't the mere use of the word, but the usage.  Like "I don't want a weapon that is very good at killing, I want it to be amazing at killing!"  The meta usage of the word.

[Yelinak]

And we use English as a fake substitute for Sirihish or whatever language is being used. Is it less "twinky" if people just say 'the best weapon quality that exists in the Known World'? When you introduce identifiable and mechanically distinct levels of weapon quality, you invite players to differentiate between them and seek out what's best. All that has really changed is that instead of asking for the exact description of whatever weapons they OOCly know is best, they now ask for the word associated with all weapons of that uniformly identical quality level. It doesn't make any real difference, it just lowers the barrier of OOC knowledge and is more fair to newer players who wouldn't otherwise necessarily have known that the long handled stone warhammer was the best one.

If this was an RPI that revolved around racing cars and the fastest category of racecars was codedly called 'F1 speed,' would you also expect players to tiptoe around that exact phrase in order to not trigger some subjective opinion and get docked karma? In other words, what difference does it really make whether a character uses the word 'amazing' in our informal Sirihish-to-English translation, or take the minor and pointless trouble to substitute some other word that conveys the same meaning? At the end of the day, grouping weapons into distinctive categories, in a permadeath game with FFA PvP where the life of one's two-RL-year-old character might depend on how good their weapon is, makes it no surprise at all if people seek out the best. Does it matter so very much if they take the path of least resistance and just use the word that the game literally tells them is the way to identify what they're looking for? Just seems a bit like pointless, heavy-handed arbitration to threaten them with punishment if they use that one exact word.

After this code went in, I asked Salarr for 'the best crushing weapon you can make.' They brought me one of good quality. See what I mean? Most players only need to experience that once before they go, 'fuck it, I'll just use the goddamn word that doesn't waste everyone's time.' In my opinion, it's actually less jarring if someone just says 'amazing' than if they go through this contrived song and dance to convey what they mean while carefully avoiding using the word just so they don't get... docked karma, smfh. Heavy is the finger that lays on a trigger all day. If I ever hear that anyone lost karma for uttering the word 'amazing,' I'll laugh at Brokkr. Especially considering the wholesale nonsense that some of the game's most influential characters get away with on a daily basis.

[Riev]

My opinion that nobody cares about?

Yes. It IS a problem that you do not put in the effort to at least HIDE the fact that you're looking for a VG Slasher.
We all know what you're doing, and we all get it. You don't want "some shitty above average weapon that does -1 damage". But saying "I want a very good club" is a bit jarring. At least try to negotiate a bit.

After this code went in, I asked Salarr for 'the best crushing weapon you can make.' They brought me one of good quality. See what I mean? Most players only need to experience that once before they go, 'fuck it, I'll just use the goddamn word that doesn't waste everyone's time.'

Maybe they did bring you the best they can make. Maybe you should be more specific. What kind of stone? What kind of grip? Do you want it made of Tuluki materials or tribal materials? What do you want, other than "the codedly best weapon" in this scenario?

[Pariah]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

I think we should find IC ways to talk about weapon quality though.  If it's not considered good sport to just ask for their quality rank.

[Armaddict]

I think we should find IC ways to talk about weapon quality though.

I don't think there is a barrier to it.  The only 'problem' seems to be the expectation that you should be able to customize it based off your desire.  But you can't really do it in RL, either.  Anyone ordering custom guns or furniture or anything like that can tell you that you run the risk of disappointment when you order things of quality.  Sometimes you get exactly what you had in mind.  Sometimes, it's not up to snuff on what you expected.

I think the idea that just because you order it using specific words means you should be able to order the quality you want is a misnomer.  Sure, it shouldn't exactly be RNG, but Salarr might just not really give that much of a fuck about you and Junior crafter #114 needed some work AND was available and bright and willing, and that's who you got.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

[Krath]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

Staff implemented something no one asked for, not needed, and with no instructions. You can't think Karma review is a viable option for this statement...Seriously. Why wouldn't folks want the best quality weapons.

[Kaathe]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release. 

No one asked for

I disagree with this take. A lot of people complained about the inconsistency of weapon damage and the solution to that is to calculate it based on attributes and templates instead of leaving it up to the two random staffers involved in the creation. 

Also keep in mind that prior to this system the only way to craft an amazing weapon was for your staffer to use a OP weapon for reference when making your new one, and nobody catch with in the approval process.  And then you wouldn't know unless you were on staff yourself comparing weapons or doing some seriously crazy science out there in the dunes. 

I assume other muds simply don't have quality and material modifiers so that all crafted weapons are the same damage based on their type like standard D&D.  Dark sun does have material modifiers for weapons, but it's more basic than our approach. 

p.s.  brokkr probably kidding about karma review but ICly if you haven't even seen an amazing weapon how do you know there is anything better? I would expect some RP around the topic, but maybe the system itself isn't conducive to that.  But hiding quality just puts us back where we were. 

[Usiku]

Good weapons are still powerful. Very good weapons are still powerful. Amazing weapons should be rare and hard to acquire. If everyone had amazing weapons, they wouldn't be amazing anymore, they would just be average. Thus it requires time and effort and investment on the part of the crafter and probably money, manipulation and persuasion on the part of the customer.

Not every PC should have an amazing weapon, not every PC should strive to have an amazing weapon, not every PC should think themselves worthy of having an amazing weapon or capable of obtaining one. Relate it to like.. I dunno.. a super luxury yacht. Do you want one? Probably, maybe, sure.. are you ever going to get one? Probably not.

[Suhuy]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

[Kestria]

I could break all of your minds...

Look at any magicker weapon, they are the ultimate gods hah!

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah but there's only one bar you can go to show such things off, assuming the players running it haven't quit.

[Armaddict]

Staff implemented something no one asked for, not needed, and with no instructions. You can't think Karma review is a viable option for this statement...Seriously. Why wouldn't folks want the best quality weapons.

To be fair, I don't think the issue is people wanting them.  I think it's the expectation that because they exist and you want them, you should always have a reliable way of getting them.  I don't believe that's the intended case for it.  Hence the statement that it will not become the new average; they will be harder to attain.

I would expect a high master artisan proven to make them to get suddenly bombarded with business, and they will have the RP of mastery of their craft, whether that be through hardcore industry elbow-grease or zen samurai one-with-the-blade crafting.  They get to decide.  But I think most of us are and will continue to be used to middle-grade or better than average, rather than extraordinary.  The only downside here is that you have the knowledge that better things do exist, where before that was up in the air.

[Inks]

If they were easy to get other weapon grades would be pointless. It's not supposed to be a game where you have everything the best all the time as a commoner, even though that is the reality with a little effort.

[Brokkr]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

Being meta is incorporating OOC stuff into your IC behavior and RP.  Why wouldn't meta behavior be considered? It is not the word choice, it is the wink wink nod nod behind the word choice, and potentially the reaction when you see the quality of the weapon does not match this OOC descriptor word.

[Suhuy]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

Being meta is incorporating OOC stuff into your IC behavior and RP.  Why wouldn't meta behavior be considered? It is not the word choice, it is the wink wink nod nod behind the word choice, and potentially the reaction when you see the quality of the weapon does not match this OOC descriptor word.

Not sure you're aware of the near total collapse this game has just gone through. I find it interesting how fixated you seem to be with docking karma and punishments in general. And in this iteration it's not for some wild code abuse. It's because someone described the weapon of their dreams with the word amazing. Good luck with your karma reviews.

[Doublepalli]

If you can tell weapon quality, you get to decide whether you want it or not. Or take away our ability to see weapon quality if we can't make it.

Because docking karma for someone using the word amazing is stupid

[Kestria]

By this logic.. wouldn't it mean that crafters risk getting karma docked because they say they have 'mastered' a skill?  Is this also considered meta'ing?  Just.. want this clarified as people have been doing it for years   

Not sure why it is a big thing that someone says they wish a 'amazing' quality weapon, so that the merchant that is making/getting it for them, actually knows exactly what it is they want.. If you didn't want people saying 'amazing', then, perhaps change the 'amazing', to a word that actually fits in with conversation that would be acceptable.

People are always going to want 'amazing' weapons now, because that is the top tier, that will do more damage..

The change in weapon quality to USE is a good idea, and I quite like it... however my grumble about the whole quality change, is the crafting side of things.. because, jeeze that is so flawed it's painful..

If someone comes to you wanting a custom knife, for example, and they come with a really rare piece of material.. you have to tell them, well, in order for me to make this rather good for you, I first have to make two other knives, that, no one needs, no one cares about, and are just frikken pointless to make.. to make you your 'very good' knife, waste two custom crafts in the process, and make the player wait 3 IRL months for it.  Which just back logs custom crafts on staff side, for pointless crafts that are not needed, just to make the one that is.. especially if it is a ONE OFF craft that will never be sold again.. this is just going to put far more, useless and unneeded weapons in game, because people that can actually be bothered to do so, are going to be throwing CC's in for crappy weapons they are not going to sell, to get to the one they ARE going to..

And no, people are not going to ASK in game that they want their CC to be 'very good' quality, no, they are going to say that they want it as good as you can make it, and then be disappointed to the high heavens when it comes back as 'average' because you decided you're not going to waste 3 months worth of cc's on -1- item, perhaps more so because you are in a GMH and your boss has a lot of backed up CC's being needed and it dampens peoples opinion of your clan because you are spending 3 irl months making a weapon above the 'common rabble unclanned' caste.. and more so.. all of this puts a dampener on the player of the crafter. 

If you wanted to land good quality weapons only craftable in Salarri hands, it should have been done exactly that.. have it so only Salarr can make 'very good and above', and everyone else makes up to good.  Make Salarr more relevant in such regard.  Why would other tribes/GMH's that do custom pieces make 2 other pieces to get the 3rd good piece, inflating their weaponry output further for the sake of 'good'? And this is just for ONE type.. if you make an 'average' knife.. you then have to make a 'above average knife', but you couldn't then say well, I want to make the 'good' a sword.  No you have to do this 'rule of 3' for EVERY type of weapon in that slot.. the amount of flooded non salarri weapons in the game over time is going to be painful, every tribe and GMH not Salarr could end up having a huge influx of weapons just to cater to this rule.

Scrap this 3 step programme nonsense for custom crafting, and do it on the matter of materials used ALONE.  Not make 2 to make 1 good one then reset AND DO IT AGAIN to make ANOTHER good quality.... Put out a list of what materials could be used to make GOOD quality weapons, what materials could be used to make ABOVE AVERAGE quality weapons etc..

[whengravityfails]

Take into account characters going missing/storing/dying and it will lengthen that CC three month chain even further. Honestly I'd be staying away from working for the GMHs so I could just make my own CCs and not worry about people being unreasonable because it would take me likely 4 to 6 months to actually CC a weapon at the top tier of my ability.

[FamousAmos]

p.s.  brokkr probably kidding about karma review but ICly if you haven't even seen an amazing weapon how do you know there is

Is he, though?

He seems to be responding awfully serious to it, and if he was kidding, it was terrible timing at best.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

[Armaddict]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

I'm not sure this works.  Automated systems using a template do not create new objects.  They are modifiable existing objects, which makes them customized, but not 'special', and they are replicable.  Armageddon Custom Crafts are entirely new items created specifically, and kept in the database for resale.

For example, a templated custom craft would be 'a bone longsword', with fields to make it black-stained, different hilt shape, different blade edge type, etc.  But they are still bone longswords, with variations.  They don't create a new item in the database.

With recent crafting changes, we are a step closer to that being possible, I think.  But at the same time, I don't know if that's scratching the same 'itch' most Arm players have with custom crafts.  People tend to like their totally unique items that are fully created from the ground up, for them, or fulfilling a specific purpose that does not exist, or making a common-use tool into a special one, which will not happen from the 'base item up' crafting model.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

I'm not sure this works.  Automated systems using a template do not create new objects.  They are modifiable existing objects, which makes them customized, but not 'special', and they are replicable.  Armageddon Custom Crafts are entirely new items created specifically, and kept in the database for resale.

For example, a templated custom craft would be 'a bone longsword', with fields to make it black-stained, different hilt shape, different blade edge type, etc.  But they are still bone longswords, with variations.  They don't create a new item in the database.

With recent crafting changes, we are a step closer to that being possible, I think.  But at the same time, I don't know if that's scratching the same 'itch' most Arm players have with custom crafts.  People tend to like their totally unique items that are fully created from the ground up, for them, or fulfilling a specific purpose that does not exist, or making a common-use tool into a special one, which will not happen from the 'base item up' crafting model.

you can have an automated system that creates new db items every time you need to make a new one. It serves the purpose of being a replacement for a staffer to log in and drop a new onum, enter in some basic fields and create the item.

[Armaddict]

Yes, but the original reason why they became limited in the first place, IIRC, is database bloat.  I'm not sure exactly how this db is set up or how bloated it gets and why that's a concern (I work on SQL servers and the amount of info that can be stored is absolutely gargantuan), but they were looking to cut down on that.  So the movement towards what you're describing is kind of natural if that's the case, but that also cuts into the 'ooh-ahhh' factor of the custom craft the way we currently seem to use it.

If that's NOT why they're set up this way, my posts are irrelevant, but I'm pretty sure I remember that being an issue mentioned.

[najdorf]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

I don't get the karma review thing.
Perhaps language barrier, though, can't see no one above this message suggesting or mentioning asking for -amazing- weapon.
Though the conversation following in the tread assumes someone did, and Brokkr responded to it.

Overall, my take is, Brokkr misunderstood one of the above entries, otherwise mentioning of karma review sounds a little off.

[Brokkr]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

[BadSkeelz]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

Sure sounds like one.

[Suhuy]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

When literally every player in this thread thinks that by karma review what you actually mean is karma review, it becomes time to stop blaming players for misunderstanding you and start communicating in a clearer and more courteous manner. Alternatively, you may wish to consider not posting in topics like this since you don't exactly have a history of being civil with the playerbase when discussing such stuff.

[Patuk]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

It 100% registers as a threat, yes.

[betweenford]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

[najdorf]

As I interpret it, Brokkr's last message subtly hints at a possible reconsideration of his stance. This presents us, the players, with an opportunity to embody the spirit of chivalry—by perceiving his words with grace and understanding, and gently diffusing the tension.

[Riev]

As I interpret it, Brokkr's last message subtly hints at a possible reconsideration of his stance. This presents us, the players, with an opportunity to embody the spirit of chivalry—by perceiving his words with grace and understanding, and gently diffusing the tension.

Yes, or words and actions can have consequence. This is not a situation where "subtlety" should prevail.

On topic though, I think the big thing is the "disappointment" I've seen in just the short time this new stuff has been in place. Someone gets a "good" quality weapon and its apparently trash, not worthwhile, not paying for it, etc.

The idea is that you can buy stock shit at average quality. You want something better, find a crafter and they might be able to make a few good or even the rare Very Good items.

Go to Salarr and their Salarr-specific designs are better, lighter, more damaging, etc.
Salarr Good Stone Bludgeon is going to be better than indie good stone bludgeon.

But I've seen players/PCs get their under-garments in a bunch because they demand only the best at all times. Commoner trash, requiring VG or Amazing at all times. I think it may be time to roll up a Salarri, myself, and start telling people they'll get whats made for them or they can buy from Steve down the street.

[najdorf]

As I interpret it, Brokkr's last message subtly hints at a possible reconsideration of his stance. This presents us, the players, with an opportunity to embody the spirit of chivalry—by perceiving his words with grace and understanding, and gently diffusing the tension.

Yes, or words and actions can have consequence. This is not a situation where "subtlety" should prevail.

Damn, I love passion of this community, staff or player alike. 



"Staff took your passion. They drove your people away from game, to scratch a living of misery! Murderers! Take back the game they stole from you. Burn every village! It will begin with Brokkr. Too long have these immortals stood against you. But no more."

[Brokkr]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

When literally every player in this thread thinks that by karma review what you actually mean is karma review, it becomes time to stop blaming players for misunderstanding you and start communicating in a clearer and more courteous manner. Alternatively, you may wish to consider not posting in topics like this since you don't exactly have a history of being civil with the playerbase when discussing such stuff.

We do not initiate a karma review based on some perceived minor bad behavior.  At most we might pinfo the character so we can know if it is a sustained behavior.

[Suhuy]

Not sure how anyone interpreted that as karma review.

Hard look is not a karma review, it is a Why the hell is a 2K player being so meta? moment.

When literally every player in this thread thinks that by karma review what you actually mean is karma review, it becomes time to stop blaming players for misunderstanding you and start communicating in a clearer and more courteous manner. Alternatively, you may wish to consider not posting in topics like this since you don't exactly have a history of being civil with the playerbase when discussing such stuff.

We do not initiate a karma review based on some perceived minor bad behavior.  At most we might pinfo the character so we can know if it is a sustained behavior.

Uh huh. You'll just have "a hard look at their karma or something" which is toooooootally not the same thing at all. I wonder why every player here interpreted it that way.

I love how you're dodging the other observations in this thread, such as how your behavior is tantamount to gas lighting or that your words 100% come across as a threat. What is it about receiving feedback (especially when it's from the entire playerbase) that you are so inexorably resistant to every time? Every single player here is trying to tell you the same thing and you're like "nope, nope, nope!" I just can't imagine this being the hill I would want to die on.

[Usiku]

Please don't turn a conversation about weapons crafting into an opportunity to try and back a staff member into a corner. It isn't fun for anyone when an offhand statement gets picked apart and scrutinised. I would hope that everyone here was able to get the gist of what Brokkr was trying to say.. e.g. If you're a high karma player and you're being super meta about weapons quality in game, then check yourself because that's kind of crappy.

Pedantry for the sake pedantry is not super helpful. Neither is mountains out of molehills. I personally prefer najdorf's approach. 

If you have a genuine issue with a staff member's conduct there is a (now player overseen) avenue for addressing it.

[eska]

IC'ly if my character has the correct skill, he can understand how good a weapon is. So it shouldn't be called meta if my char says IG that he wants a very good weapon or something even better than that. It's the same as poisons. Assessing the poison says it is weak or average. Would it also be considered as meta if someone says IG that the poison is average?

If a PC sees something IG using the assess command, it is totally IC.

IMO the below are all shown when you assess an item with the correct skill so they are not meta but IC:

• An item weighing 5 stones.
• A container has a capacity of 60 stones.
• A poison being inert or weak.
• A tablet being old.
• A weapon that can be held in two hands.
• An item that a player can wear.
• A weapon being terrible or amazing quality.

Edited to add "the assess command" above.

[najdorf]

Sometimes it's okay, but can get ridiculous if taken to troll levels.

The tall, muscular man grabs your leg and knocks you down!

You say, in sirihish:
"I feel like my kicking is journeyman now, I'm not an apprentice at it any more."

[eska]

Sometimes it's okay, but can get ridiculous if taken to troll levels.

The tall, muscular man grabs your leg and knocks you down!

You say, in sirihish:
"I feel like my kicking is journeyman now, I'm not an apprentice at it any more."

Yeah.  You are right. My bad. I should have specified that what you see in assess.

[Usiku]

Sometimes it's okay, but can get ridiculous if taken to troll levels.

The tall, muscular man grabs your leg and knocks you down!

You say, in sirihish:
"I feel like my kicking is journeyman now, I'm not an apprentice at it any more."

A bit this yep!

Also, there is a difference between just engaging with the game as it is codedly presented to you and really digging into the RP around something. The game presents something to you, the player, via assess - that's the code part of the game, and no different from any non-RPI mud, what you choose to do with that and what you decide your PC knows and how and why - that's the RP part. So you may be able to see that the dagger you have is 'very good' or even 'good'.. but what if it is the best dagger your PC has ever seen in their whole lives? To them it might seem amazing, incredible, the best dagger ever ever.. until they see something better. And maybe they wouldn't reaaaally know how good a weapon was until they had actually tried it out and used it to stab a few things with?

Maybe in an ideal world we would code it so that when you assess a weapon, the quality it shows you is relative to your PCs worldly experiences.. and maybe that should only show up after the weapon has been used a bit so they have a feel for it? I would hope we don't have to go quite that far though.

You can choose to play this game at either end of the spectrum, but we do hope that our high karma players are championing the RPI standards that help us to create the incredibly immersive world that we all enjoy.

[Riev]

As a person who has switched from guild_warrior to class_artisan over the years, I think what would be more helpful on the part of people making requests is:

What kind of weapon do you want
What sort of material do you want it made out of
How expensive do you expect it to be

Material matters A LOT MORE than it used to, for one, and for two ... if someone wants "something I can ES" vs "Something made for two handing", I don't know if its publically available but it should be somewhere that like "a Greatsword is a two hander" vs "a Bastard Sword is EP/ETWO" vs "a longsword is versatile, EP/ES/ETWO"

Ideally so someone can say "I want a greatsword, preferably made out of bone, or shell. Heavy, but I don't want to be spending 1500 on a single blade"

Boom. alright. Let me buy some bone and shell and see what I can make.

Opposed to "I want an amazing bludgeon I don't care the cost" and its some ... whelp Byn Runner with no status but lucked into a couple large killing NPCs in the 'rinth.

[cnemus]

I don't know if its publically available but it should be somewhere that like "a Greatsword is a two hander" vs "a Bastard Sword is EP/ETWO" vs "a longsword is versatile, EP/ES/ETWO"

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

[Yelinak]

Sometimes it's okay, but can get ridiculous if taken to troll levels.

The tall, muscular man grabs your leg and knocks you down!

You say, in sirihish:
"I feel like my kicking is journeyman now, I'm not an apprentice at it any more."

A bit this yep!

No, not "a bit of this, yep!"

All of it, yep; if, one day, you see fit to apply this standard of roleplay to the rest of the game. If, one day, you (not you personally, of course, but "you staff") see fit to make this a game where people can expect that the in-game realities rule supreme, and where breaches thereof are met with the same level of scrutiny and possible retribution as promised by our dear Brokkr, you can post such a thing. But not now, and not for years and years past.

But for as long as we see established karma characters twinking balls-to-the walls on a daily basis, any remarks about invoking karma reviews based on the words one chooses to use in one's character's speech will cling very hollow. For as long as it remains true that some players get away with wholesale powergaming and flagrant twinking, it is patently unreasonable to say anything about the language that anyone chooses to use when they portray their characters' behavior.

Because there are so many players in this game who do no more than the barest minimum in portraying their characters. Armageddon has acquired a reputation in the RPI circle for being the place where roleplay goes to die. You're overjoyed when you meet someone who does more than grunt or nod at one's efforts of characterisation. This problem is not combatted by targeted strikedowns, it's a cultural issue, and it's very much one that exists here.

I can go out right now and meet some dude in the desert, and as soon as the movement delay allows me to, I can murder him without a word or an emote. It will be deemed legitimate by the rules of the game. What do you think that player will do next time they're in a similar situation? They'll resort to code. And yet here we are, lambasting players for using an innocuous word related to non-conflict commerce, as if that's where this battle should be fought.

Roleplay on ArmageddonMUD went to shit when there was no longer anyone amongst the senior staff who cared about the narrative. That's when it stopped mattering whether you actually portrayed a believable character and did things that made sense. When a certain purple-haired lady left this community, the literary spirit of this game died.

I will retch each time some admin tells me that it's bad play to use a certain word because it happens to be the one the code tells me, on the same day that my clan's leader has sparred for 90 minutes traight, or when the noble lord I serve has told me to keep working on peek until I learn how to spot hidden individuals.

The roleplaying standards of Armageddon are for shit, because they haven't been maintained, and swiping at the lowest-hanging and most-inconsequential fruit is not how that is addressed. How about not focusing karma awards near-exclusively on those who spend time serving as clanleads? How about not letting 'friends of staff' carry out grotesque acts of twinkery unchallenged while striking down on minor acts from those who aren't friends?

Maybe then, if you did that, it would one day again (as it once was) be a game where it makes sense to point out minor things like word choice and inconsequential acts as potentiak breaches of the roleplaying norms in a so-called RPI. Until then, however, clean the living room before you start vacuuming the cellar, because RP on Arm has turned to shit in the last decade.

[Yelinak]

I'll add a little more. Why not.

There was once a time when the way one portrayed one's character, and had them act, was taken into account when it came to judging how good a roleplayer they were. For whatever reason, that seems to have been almost entirely lost when Sanvean left. Being an author, she understood that it wasn't all about bureaucracy and services rendered. She understood that what matters - or should matter - in this game was: the story.

Then she left. And then that notion died. Now, it's all about tallying the months you've spent serving as a canlead, and how diligent (and, above all, how polite!) you were in your correspondence with staff. Meanwhile, if you're not in a position where that matters, it seems you can do whatever you want... until you catch someone's ire, and then it's heavy-handed punishment the moment they see fit.

And there was never any communication beforehand. You weren't warned that you should cool it, or told that you were toeing the line. No, it was just sudden punishment one day, after six months where you hadn't heard a peep from anyone upstairs, and you may very well have spent that whole time wondering if the barebones roleplay you witness on a daily basis means that nobody even pays attention to what goes on in the game at all.

So any concerns about what specfic words one uses when portraying their character's dialogue need to come long, long after the much-needed addressing of the absolutely horrible, toxic and ridiculous roleplaying standards that pass for daily fare in this game. It's frankly idiotic how shameless the twinking has been for a while now, and uttering the word 'amazing' is the common cold against the plague that is a seemingly unmonitored roleplaying environment where the best twink wins.

[Usiku]

Thank you for the scathing review. I'm not sure it's the right place for it, and you're not entirely correct in all your assumptions, but it may surprise you to find that it's actually quite difficult to wrangle an entire playerbase to... just behave the way you want them to. Is the quality of the RP here entirely the responsibility of the staff or is it also on the players and the community as a whole? Just because I can't click my fingers and make a thing so doesn't mean I don't want it or care about it. I also don't think it is pointless to discuss the RP surrounding this small topic, even if you feel the larger picture is broken, because.. to twist a metaphor.. pennies make pounds.. and it is in the details that we can try to remind each other of the quality that we would like to see.

That said, this is a thread about crafting high quality weapons.. therefore if RP is being discussed.. it is going to be in the context of crafting high quality weapons. If you want to have an in depth conversation about the over-arching quality of RP.. then perhaps start a different thread for it?

And as an aside, because it drives me just a little up the wall that everyone here seems to get this wrong.. 'toe the line' means to fall in line and conform. It does not mean to push boundaries.

[Halaster]

But I've seen players/PCs get their under-garments in a bunch because they demand only the best at all times. Commoner trash, requiring VG or Amazing at all times. I think it may be time to roll up a Salarri, myself, and start telling people they'll get whats made for them or they can buy from Steve down the street.

Do it!  You'd have my support.

[Halaster]

It's fine to use the word "amazing" when speaking of weapons.

Ok:

"I'd like you to make the most amazing weapon you can, one that Tektolnes would be jealous of!"
"This is the most amazing sword I've ever seen!"
"Noble Turdface's mace was absolutely amazing, can you make me something like that!?"

Try to avoid:

"I don't want something merely good or very good, I'd like it amazing quality please".

I will diverge from Brokkr here and say on record that you will not be karma docked, or have a karma review, if you do.  I'm speaking to fellow staff here as much as the player base when I say we have to move ourselves away from that sort of attitude.  We want to keep our standards as high as we can, but let's not quibble or punish over the small shit.  "Good RP" (which I agree with Usiku needs its own topic) is "playing the role of this character and their life well and according to their story".  It's not about acting skills, though those certainly -do- play a big part and make the telling and reading of the story more enjoyable.   It's about telling the story of your character and the world around you, consistently and realistically within the settings of the game.

Someone who doesn't emote very well or says some things that are kinda meh, but actually considers their surroundings, the story of others, tries to engage other people and involve them in the story, and all that?  Far more important that the right use of words.

Anyway.  I thought Usiku posted already, but we're making a slight change to the 3-month process.  Expect that soon.

[Suhuy]

I will diverge from Brokkr here and say on record that you will not be karma docked, or have a karma review, if you do.  I'm speaking to fellow staff here as much as the player base when I say we have to move ourselves away from that sort of attitude.

This, as far as I'm concerned, is the right tone and is an example for how we should expect/hope the game to be staffed moving forward.

Corrective behavior is not about punishments or threat tactics. If you can't look at yourself as a mentor and only see yourself as a policeman then frankly leadership just isn't for you. Step down.

Thank you for the clarification, Halaster. I believe that's all anyone in this thread really wanted.

[Krath]

I will diverge from Brokkr here and say on record that you will not be karma docked, or have a karma review, if you do.  I'm speaking to fellow staff here as much as the player base when I say we have to move ourselves away from that sort of attitude.

This, as far as I'm concerned, is the right tone and is an example for how we should expect/hope the game to be staffed moving forward.

Corrective behavior is not about punishments or threat tactics. If you can't look at yourself as a mentor and only see yourself as a policeman then frankly leadership just isn't for you. Step down.

Thank you for the clarification, Halaster. I believe that's all anyone in this thread really wanted.

+1. Thank you, Halaster.

[Krath]

On topic now....If you want amazing weapons rare and out of the reach of the common person make them soo expensive they cannot afford them. Our currency is at a place where 5k even 10k is easily attainable. 20k? 30k not soo much especially for one piece of equipment. Top tier weapons, armor and support items should be top tier prices.

[Patuk]

Charging top tier prices just means that Salarr sells its best of weapons to its sweatiest of glass miners. Armageddon is not Capitalism Simulator, and the Known runs on much more powerful forces than plain old money.

[Riev]

Charging top tier prices just means that Salarr sells its best of weapons to its sweatiest of glass miners. Armageddon is not Capitalism Simulator, and the Known runs on much more powerful forces than plain old money.

I kind of agree, here. If you make it 20,000, then people will just grind to 20,000 in their account. There are no 'finite' resources when it comes to coin, so we have to invent social resources.

Steve the Grebber who has no affiliations and no political clout may be able to AFFORD that sword, but why sell it to him when he's going to die, lose it, and someone else gets it.

No no. Sell it to someone who is going to use it against other people effectively, so other people need better armor against that sword. Then sell them sword BREAKERS. Then sell the other guy a shield.

[Armaddict]

I think that was semi-referenced in one of the staff responses.

Just because you have the coin doesn't mean you should be looking for one.  They're for the 'big ones', the nobles, the templars, the people who have built names for themselves, the notables.  I like the statement that it's not capitalism simulator, because while getting coin is a big part of it, there's a lot more to the merchanting than just making coin here.  Every move is not just for business, it's also for status, which has a lot more to do with the caste system.  Or something.

Anyway.  I +1 those thoughts, those are good things to keep in mind.

[Yelinak]

Don't we also have semi-annual discussions about how worthless money is, in large part because you can only buy mediocre crap from the GREAT MERCHANT HOUSES? That's in addition to the apparent genereal consensus that GMHs aren't important enough for the common player to care about them. Meanwhile, we're to accept that it's unreasonable to expect that House Salarr is capable of making weapons that qualify as 'the best money can buy.' Ridiculous.

Let's now have another thread in two or three months where people wonder why nobody gives a damn about GMHs and the roles associated with them feel like pointless dead ends. And another decade can then go by like that. After that, we can spend a bunch of time wondering why it is that nobody thinks money has any real value in this game.

A real mystery.

[Quelan]

I do have one pretty relevant question, which is what classes get low/high advanced or low/high master in these skills? Caps for classes are generally just listed as 'advanced' or 'master'. Does a Soldier get to high advanced? What about a Laborer?

[Quelan]

Nevermind, I missed that Brokkr said where Soldier and Laborer fall in one of his posts.

[Roon]

Now that there may be seasons that don't feature either tribes or a playable House Salarr, and come with a definitve end date with a pwipe, wouldn't it be prudent to soften the restrictions on high-end weaponcrafting?

One aspect of the GMH playstyle that I've always wanted to see more of is protecting your commercial advantage. If Season One doesn't support clans outside of Allanak, there simply won't be anyone who can attempt to compete with Salarr, so it robs that clan of opportunities to actually fight against the competition because nobody else will have the ability to craft the best stuff. Crafting the best weapons is limited to Salarr and tribes that specialize in a given type of weapon. Without the latter, Salarr has a hardcoded monopoly. That sounds dull.

A potential source of thematic conflict will have been removed from the game altogether, and it was a largely untapped source of conflict that I would have liked to see expanded and turned into a more prominent feature of GMH play, not eliminated. GMH play has a reputation for being boring and leading nowhere, and it would be much more appealing if GMH characters had an incentive to either go mafia-mode and break the knees of the competition or try to persuade (by hook or crook) talented crafters into joining them. This is super thematic and would make the role much more interesting, instead of being glorified salesmen and sweatshop workers.

Maybe it can be made so that indepenents with the requisite skill in a weapon craft can make one "magnum opus" top tier weapon, or perhaps two per year or something. This still leaves Salarr with a significant advantage, without making it so that they don't even have to care about anyone else because it's factually impossible to even attempt to compete with them and be someone they have to investigate, threaten or bring into the fold.

Secondly, with seasons having a finite timeline and ending in a pwipe, there's less need to worry about flooding the market with high-quality weapons. According to last year's announcement, you can only make four 'top tier' weapons per year, and you must wait a minimum of two months between each. I think that limitation can be lessened. Keep in mind that it only really applies to Salarr, for Season One.

Six per year and one month between each seems more reasonable, and I feel like the three-step progression can be reduced to two, i.e. mastering a weapon craft lets you CC the second-best and then, when that's accomplished and you've waited out your CC timer, you can make the best of that one category. Then you can choose whether to start over with another weapon category or make different top tier weapons of the same category you had already perfected.

Without that, I feel like there's too little incentive to bother at all when you know it's all getting erased from existence at the end of a season. Crafting top tier weapons is already a somewhat underwhelming goal because the character crafting them doesn't really get to benefit from the objects (what the F is an artisan gonna do with an amazing weapon?) so you're basically doing it for other people, or maybe the faint hope that one of your future characters may one day happen upon a copy of your old creation. If you can at least make these weapons often enough that master weaponcrafters are Zalanthan celebrities who can have people vying for their friendship, it'll add some oomph to an evidently unattractive character concept.

As a final side-note, with amazing weapons being as exclusive as they are, they definitely need to be removed from any NPC's loadout. When this change went in, I was miffed to discover that the best way to obtain a top tier weapon was not to curry favor with the finest crafters in the land, but rather to find out which NPCs spawned with amazing weapons and then killing them.

[digitaleak]

Perhaps I misunderstood the details of the Seasons updates, but I was under the impression staff was still aiming to create zones outside of Allanak for people to enjoy all play styles. Also, I was under the impression player stories would still be able to outlive their characters even in the next seasons depending on how the storylines are affected by players. So a player wipe at the end of a season doesn't necessarily equate to a wipe of everything players have been working towards while they were alive.

If these things are the case, then I'd imagine there's still going to be incentive to play crafters and/or compete with Salarr. Though, it is food for thought... What would happen if they did have a monopoly... and what would it look like if the player base did something about that in game? 

[Roon]

As I understand it, there will be no clans open outside of whatever place is the focus of a season, and Season One's focus is Allanak. And unless your big "character story" is to create a weapon that will last forever and become a future relic to be found in the ruins of wherever as part of some formal storyline, it'll be gone when the season ends and all characters (and their inventories) go the way of the kank. What are you gonna do, bury your amazing sword in the Salt Flats and then dig it up in the subsequent season with another character? I don't think that would fly.

What would happen if they did have a monopoly... and what would it look like if the player base did something about that in game? 

As the rules currently stand, there would be no "doing something about it" because the only ones who even have the option of crafting a top tier weapon are members of House Salarr, and members of a tribe that specifically specializes in making weapons of one particular kind. From what I can tell, such tribes will not exist in Season One, and so the only ones who have the option to make top tier weapons at all are members of Salarr. Hence the concern about a lack of competition-based roleplay and conflict. If nobody is even allowed to compete, there is no competition.

In my mind, the GMHs should be out there breaking the kneecaps of anyone who make anything as good as what they sell, and that's a fantastic source of conflict and subterfuge. Except if it literally isn't possible to do it at all, it won't be anything, and then the GMH playstyle remains that of shirt-sellers who store after two months because it's so boring that you die in real life.

[digitaleak]

I imagine there will be larger plots going on in the Season that involve power struggles over strong featured clans and all other clans that seek to change the status quo. Perhaps there will be new clans? Who knows! I'm curious to see if crafting rules will change slightly for indies to be more competitive and scale to the shorter seasons because I also imagine they will be adjusted in a way that makes sense.

[Roon]

Well, it's always possible that there are wholly unannounced changes in the pipeline, but we can't base our opinions on unfounded hopes. As it stands, the only ones who are allowed to craft 'amazing' weapons are members of House Salarr, and members of any tribe that specifically specializes in crafting weapons of that type. From what I can tell, the latter will not exist in Season One (and in future seasons, maybe you can't play in Salarr), and I feel like that calls for a change to the rules about crafting top tier weapons. It would be boring if the only way to make weapons for which there's a demand was to join the one clan that permits it; and there wouldn't be any need for that restriction when everything is wiped from the board each time a season ends. Seasons largely do away with the perils of "flooding the market" with high-quality weapons.

[Riev]

House Salarr has been making top tier weapons for hundreds of years. They have the skills. The techniques. The tools. Things developed over this time to make these things.

Your indie cannot make Amazing-quality weapons. BUT if a Season lasts 2 RL years, and NOTHING changes with the current PC Clan documentation (and it should, but thats another topic), you will have plenty of time to build up a PC Clan whose entire focus is crafting a super-cool sword. But it will never be as good as what Salarr makes, and even the one that Salarr DID make is going to be super limited.

Mordat made -one- amazing quality weapon. It took over 3 RL months and I was lucky to even get it into the game before I got Templar'd. I can only HOPE if there is a future Tuluk story that the blade is featured.

I don't know that every seasons player wipe necessarily means recipes will go away. Unless we jump into a "Historical Allanak"?

[Roon]

House Salarr has been making top tier weapons for hundreds of years. They have the skills. The techniques. The tools. Things developed over this time to make these things.

Your indie cannot make Amazing-quality weapons.

That just doesn't seem realistic to me. We're talking about bone swords here, not iPhones. I can't think of any reason why it should be literally impossible for anyone but the employees of this one merchant house to ever make weapons of the highest quality. It legitimately defies the way that reality works. It isn't rational. It isn't how things work on a fundamental level.

Moreover, it presumes that every season will have an active and playable House Salarr. If there are seasons that don't, are high-quality weapons just handwaved out of existence? It's clear that these rules were drawn up in a time when this clan - and tribes that specialized in making particular kinds of weapons - were presumed to be a permanent fixture of the game.

I agree that Salarr would have a distinct advantage. They have the mentors, the materials, the marketing edge and so on. That's why I advocated for things like a greater number of CCs per year for people in that clan. But to say that it simply is not possible for anybody else to ever make anything as good frankly seems more like a video game mechanic than a representation of a believable world.

I don't know that every seasons player wipe necessarily means recipes will go away. Unless we jump into a "Historical Allanak"?

Maybe I've misinterpreted what staff has said, but they said this:

All amazing weapons will be one-off custom crafts, rather than craftable.

To me, that does not mean "when you've invented an amazing-quality weapon, it will enter into the list of craftable items for all time and can be made again in the future." In fact, it means the total opposite of that. You get to make an 'amazing' weapon and then that's that. You made one. You didn't introduce a new craft to the game's collective inventory, you just created an object that will go away whenever it is no longer actively on the playing field, i.e. at the end of each season.

This is why I think the restrictions need to be reduced when we enter into a new version of the game that is wiped clean every so often, and all of these CCs are erased from existence.

[Armaddict]

Ultimately, the logic can really be taken both ways in this, and it's coming down to more of a design decision based off of other factors, in my mind.

I believe this is:
1) Keep the standard quality of weapons below 'Amazing' quality; not everyone should have amazing weapons, getting an amazing quality weapon is a long term goal, and you'll have to add to 'things to work on' for clanned people, rather than segregating yourself from the main structured components of the game (clans).

2) Clans have always been about 'what they offer'.  In old days, food, water, storage, and some amount of political capital were enough to keep clans well-populated, along with what was at the time a different way of doing things that meant clanned people had more kind of 'mini-plots' going.  That kind of died out as we made things that people wanted, which may have specifically targeted leaving clans or might have been just unacknowledged side products: we made hunting easier and less dangerous, which made food easier to get for yourself, and since it was less dangerous, more lucrative over long term so that you could afford water and your own storage (apartments).  I see this as a design move to create a different incentive to join clans without specifically punishing non-clanned (indeed, this is not a punishment to indies, just a boon to clanned people).

So again, I'm not sure logical what-could-be-done arguments are really the basis here.  We'd need a reason for the design of it to benefit the game more than clan involvement does.  I, personally, think the game thrived a lot more under heavier clan involvement because it naturally kept people more centralized and involved in political goings on.

I could be mistaken in all this, that's just how I see the design decision in my brain, likely with my own biases involved (i.e. This may be a non-objective perspective)

ETA before someone inevitably says this is punishment for not joining a clan:
Reminder:
Positive Reinforcement - Added benefit for an action or state
Positive Punishment - Added detriment for an action or state
Negative Reinforcement - Removing a detriment for an action or state
Negative Punishment - Removing a benefit for an action or state

This is a reinforcement for joining crafting clans, not a punishment for those who don't.  This is in keeping with the oft-requested principle of 'make the thing you want players doing better, don't make the other things worse'.

[Riev]

Personally, I would need to be convinced the "its just bone swords" argument is anything but "But I want to not have to deal with <x> clan for my goals".

Its not against you, Roon, but I see it all the time. "Its just stone. its just wood. They're bone swords".

Okay. So to take "just a piece of bone" and artfully craft it into an AMAZING QUALITY WEAPON should be even further out of an indie's hands. What makes you think that after 5 years of whittling wood in your back-woods home qualifies you to make ARTISANAL. MASTER QUALITY. SOUGHT AFTER BY HIGH NOBILITY. bone weapons?

Frankly? It sounds to me like people who argue for "I should be able to make amazing weapons" just want to do "the new thing the coders added without putting in the effort and roleplay involved". Maybe if you DO, and you work at it for over 2 RL years ... maybe staff will let you. But by default? No.

[Trevalyan]

Its not against you, Roon, but I see it all the time. "Its just stone. its just wood. They're bone swords".

You're being incredibly circumspect about this, Riev. I was in a position to know quite a bit about that sword, and the work Mordat put into it was preposterous. The vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how much effort goes into normal weapons submissions, never mind amazing ones. The guidelines for crafting amazing weapons are only a tiny sliver of the work you had to put in, and I thought it was a very well roleplayed journey.

Now, SOME of the tribes might be able to craft amazing-quality weapons, but only with Dragon-era knowledge using the most powerful components in the game. There's no way they could create new ones short of infusing them with magic or some other insane thing that the templars would never tolerate.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Personally, I would need to be convinced the "its just bone swords" argument is anything but "But I want to not have to deal with <x> clan for my goals".

Its not against you, Roon, but I see it all the time. "Its just stone. its just wood. They're bone swords".

Okay. So to take "just a piece of bone" and artfully craft it into an AMAZING QUALITY WEAPON should be even further out of an indie's hands. What makes you think that after 5 years of whittling wood in your back-woods home qualifies you to make ARTISANAL. MASTER QUALITY. SOUGHT AFTER BY HIGH NOBILITY. bone weapons?

Frankly? It sounds to me like people who argue for "I should be able to make amazing weapons" just want to do "the new thing the coders added without putting in the effort and roleplay involved". Maybe if you DO, and you work at it for over 2 RL years ... maybe staff will let you. But by default? No.

I think maybe Riev has a point here... it all IS just bone, and wood, and obsidian, and stone...

What if the quality of these weapons is all in our heads, and it's all just crappy quality, and the only thing that gives the weapon real value at all is that it came from a big influential merchant house, and high nobility wants it?   


A little more seriously and less philosophically, it would be interesting if certain very special items like these were tracked and let's say, in another season, some other templar npc, noble, guard captain or whatever has ownership of those amazing-quality weapons.

[Dresan]

I have two thoughts:

1. First  is that words matter. A few more sections out of the range of player crafters would probably solve most concerns.

As a fun exanple: Superior(sponsored role), Supreme(GMH sponsored only), Legendary (staff) and Artifact tiers(save ginka server).

Its then all just becomes perspective. For example  gaj tooth dagger that i cant sell because for 1 sid because merchant has too many, could maybe be a a couple of tier shy from 'amazing' .

I really doubt we'll see gortok granite mace levels of amazing again so i am not too concerned about 'amazing' level weapons everywhere. Again amazing could all just be perspective.


2. There is an issue in this game when it comes to the defining of risk/effort vs reward.

Oddly this is not a code issue, the code exists to make exploring any part of the game as rewarding or risky as people want. Its more of a policy issue where game has never properly defined/standardized the effort for rewards that makes sense for this game. Its often very subjective which leads to many problems later on.

So people are left subjectively trying to debate how much effort/risk is enough to own/find/acquire something 'amazing'. Is it okay to pick up 'amazing' off the ground like i did my gortok granite maces back in the day? Maybe

[Armaddict]

So people are left subjectively trying to debate how much effort/risk is enough to own/find/acquire something 'amazing'. Is it okay to pick up 'amazing' off the ground like i did my gortok granite maces back in the day? Maybe

Maybe it was stated somewhere, I haven't paid that much attention, but it might also be worth knowing with the standardization whether some weapons are just...better.

That amazing quality bone longsword, is that better than this superior rainbow-obsidian broadsword?  This stone-studded cudgel?  Does Amazing mean 'omg use it' or not?

[mansa]

Maybe it was stated somewhere, I haven't paid that much attention, but it might also be worth knowing with the standardization whether some weapons are just...better.

That amazing quality bone longsword, is that better than this superior rainbow-obsidian broadsword?  This stone-studded cudgel?  Does Amazing mean 'omg use it' or not?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58907.0.html

They never used any numbers to justify it, but you can assume that it either adds to the higher end of the dice roll chance -or- it adds damage at the end of the damage calculation or a combination of both.

aka

terrible longsword is 1d5
low longsword is 1d6
below average longsword is 1d7
average longsword is 1d8
above average longsword is 1d9
good longsword is 1d10
very good longsword is 1d10+1
amazing longsword is 1d10+2

[whengravityfails]

Amazing weapons should remain rare, there's no need for more of them circulating in game. They should be highly sought after prizes that people scheme and kill for - and certainly shouldn't be produced outside of Salarr and those tribes who can specialize in their one particular weapon. The case of Salarr, those special tools and techniques that have been honed over centuries -mean- something. I do agree that something ought to be done to make playing in Salarr or the other GMHs more attractive. That's a far better solution than removing restrictions on Amazing weapons.
I really do hope that all of the crafting recipes aren't wiped out, it would be a shame for those who went through the trouble of making them. Very special weapons should be discoverable in future seasons - like the rapier Mordat crafted and a few others.

[Dresan]

I think it can be min, max damage or plus damage but i am unsure if other bonus like light weight or skill bonus will count as well to quality....thinking yes since these are crafted items but again unsure.

Ultimately 'amazing' quality weapon will be better than above average 'quality'. But how much better from one tier to another or how much better from what we currently are used to using in game is debatable.

A certain razor-tipped spear could probably pass for amazing when it first came out. But could it help my newb ranger love-tap his shield warrior sergeant to sleep in a round or so like the gortok granite maces could....of course not, but both were selling for the same price and were everywhere for a while.

The only thing that i see being rare and hard to get might be short sword stabbing weapons, I think staff shifted stances on those existing but never updated documentation.

[perfecto]

Amazing weapons should remain rare, there's no need for more of them circulating in game. They should be highly sought after prizes that people scheme and kill for - and certainly shouldn't be produced outside of Salarr and those tribes who can specialize in their one particular weapon. The case of Salarr, those special tools and techniques that have been honed over centuries -mean- something. I do agree that something ought to be done to make playing in Salarr or the other GMHs more attractive. That's a far better solution than removing restrictions on Amazing weapons.
I really do hope that all of the crafting recipes aren't wiped out, it would be a shame for those who went through the trouble of making them. Very special weapons should be discoverable in future seasons - like the rapier Mordat crafted and a few others.

Total agree with this direction for high end weaps, the greats should be the only ones creating the greats.
Also hoping the player crafted recipes are still going to be a part of the reboot. Though it wouldn't make complete sense with the time shifts of the seasons that some things be available for creation?  Any comments on that Imms?

Still makes me smile when I see my Gigantic fan-bladed war sword for sale in one of the shops.