Crafting High Quality Weapons Q&A

[Armaddict]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Amazing is a natural language description word and when you look at an 'amazing' weapon that is how it looks. It seems a bit of a contrivance to just not use the word for some reason.

Why would that be something karma is tied to?

(Edited here:  I make this sound like I know the motivation when I actually meant to posit my own interpretation.) He's talking about karma being related to trying to 'game' the system or run some sort of meta thing where you're playing mechanics more than the game.  The impression I get is that 'amazing' quality items are supposed to be few and far between, not something that the playerbase is all formulating a way to get their hands on one.

[Brokkr]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Amazing is a natural language description word and when you look at an 'amazing' weapon that is how it looks. It seems a bit of a contrivance to just not use the word for some reason.

Why would that be something karma is tied to?

Every word we are using here is part of a natural language, not sure how that is relevant. It isn't the mere use of the word, but the usage.  Like "I don't want a weapon that is very good at killing, I want it to be amazing at killing!"  The meta usage of the word.

[Yelinak]

And we use English as a fake substitute for Sirihish or whatever language is being used. Is it less "twinky" if people just say 'the best weapon quality that exists in the Known World'? When you introduce identifiable and mechanically distinct levels of weapon quality, you invite players to differentiate between them and seek out what's best. All that has really changed is that instead of asking for the exact description of whatever weapons they OOCly know is best, they now ask for the word associated with all weapons of that uniformly identical quality level. It doesn't make any real difference, it just lowers the barrier of OOC knowledge and is more fair to newer players who wouldn't otherwise necessarily have known that the long handled stone warhammer was the best one.

If this was an RPI that revolved around racing cars and the fastest category of racecars was codedly called 'F1 speed,' would you also expect players to tiptoe around that exact phrase in order to not trigger some subjective opinion and get docked karma? In other words, what difference does it really make whether a character uses the word 'amazing' in our informal Sirihish-to-English translation, or take the minor and pointless trouble to substitute some other word that conveys the same meaning? At the end of the day, grouping weapons into distinctive categories, in a permadeath game with FFA PvP where the life of one's two-RL-year-old character might depend on how good their weapon is, makes it no surprise at all if people seek out the best. Does it matter so very much if they take the path of least resistance and just use the word that the game literally tells them is the way to identify what they're looking for? Just seems a bit like pointless, heavy-handed arbitration to threaten them with punishment if they use that one exact word.

After this code went in, I asked Salarr for 'the best crushing weapon you can make.' They brought me one of good quality. See what I mean? Most players only need to experience that once before they go, 'fuck it, I'll just use the goddamn word that doesn't waste everyone's time.' In my opinion, it's actually less jarring if someone just says 'amazing' than if they go through this contrived song and dance to convey what they mean while carefully avoiding using the word just so they don't get... docked karma, smfh. Heavy is the finger that lays on a trigger all day. If I ever hear that anyone lost karma for uttering the word 'amazing,' I'll laugh at Brokkr. Especially considering the wholesale nonsense that some of the game's most influential characters get away with on a daily basis.

[Riev]

My opinion that nobody cares about?

Yes. It IS a problem that you do not put in the effort to at least HIDE the fact that you're looking for a VG Slasher.
We all know what you're doing, and we all get it. You don't want "some shitty above average weapon that does -1 damage". But saying "I want a very good club" is a bit jarring. At least try to negotiate a bit.

After this code went in, I asked Salarr for 'the best crushing weapon you can make.' They brought me one of good quality. See what I mean? Most players only need to experience that once before they go, 'fuck it, I'll just use the goddamn word that doesn't waste everyone's time.'

Maybe they did bring you the best they can make. Maybe you should be more specific. What kind of stone? What kind of grip? Do you want it made of Tuluki materials or tribal materials? What do you want, other than "the codedly best weapon" in this scenario?

[Pariah]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

I think we should find IC ways to talk about weapon quality though.  If it's not considered good sport to just ask for their quality rank.

[Armaddict]

I think we should find IC ways to talk about weapon quality though.

I don't think there is a barrier to it.  The only 'problem' seems to be the expectation that you should be able to customize it based off your desire.  But you can't really do it in RL, either.  Anyone ordering custom guns or furniture or anything like that can tell you that you run the risk of disappointment when you order things of quality.  Sometimes you get exactly what you had in mind.  Sometimes, it's not up to snuff on what you expected.

I think the idea that just because you order it using specific words means you should be able to order the quality you want is a misnomer.  Sure, it shouldn't exactly be RNG, but Salarr might just not really give that much of a fuck about you and Junior crafter #114 needed some work AND was available and bright and willing, and that's who you got.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

[Krath]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Unless you mean it looks amazing and you don't care about combat effectiveness, in which case go wild.

Amazing will not be becoming the new average.

Staff implemented something no one asked for, not needed, and with no instructions. You can't think Karma review is a viable option for this statement...Seriously. Why wouldn't folks want the best quality weapons.

[Kaathe]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release. 

No one asked for

I disagree with this take. A lot of people complained about the inconsistency of weapon damage and the solution to that is to calculate it based on attributes and templates instead of leaving it up to the two random staffers involved in the creation. 

Also keep in mind that prior to this system the only way to craft an amazing weapon was for your staffer to use a OP weapon for reference when making your new one, and nobody catch with in the approval process.  And then you wouldn't know unless you were on staff yourself comparing weapons or doing some seriously crazy science out there in the dunes. 

I assume other muds simply don't have quality and material modifiers so that all crafted weapons are the same damage based on their type like standard D&D.  Dark sun does have material modifiers for weapons, but it's more basic than our approach. 

p.s.  brokkr probably kidding about karma review but ICly if you haven't even seen an amazing weapon how do you know there is anything better? I would expect some RP around the topic, but maybe the system itself isn't conducive to that.  But hiding quality just puts us back where we were. 

[Usiku]

Good weapons are still powerful. Very good weapons are still powerful. Amazing weapons should be rare and hard to acquire. If everyone had amazing weapons, they wouldn't be amazing anymore, they would just be average. Thus it requires time and effort and investment on the part of the crafter and probably money, manipulation and persuasion on the part of the customer.

Not every PC should have an amazing weapon, not every PC should strive to have an amazing weapon, not every PC should think themselves worthy of having an amazing weapon or capable of obtaining one. Relate it to like.. I dunno.. a super luxury yacht. Do you want one? Probably, maybe, sure.. are you ever going to get one? Probably not.

[Suhuy]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

[Kestria]

I could break all of your minds...

Look at any magicker weapon, they are the ultimate gods hah!

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah but there's only one bar you can go to show such things off, assuming the players running it haven't quit.

[Armaddict]

Staff implemented something no one asked for, not needed, and with no instructions. You can't think Karma review is a viable option for this statement...Seriously. Why wouldn't folks want the best quality weapons.

To be fair, I don't think the issue is people wanting them.  I think it's the expectation that because they exist and you want them, you should always have a reliable way of getting them.  I don't believe that's the intended case for it.  Hence the statement that it will not become the new average; they will be harder to attain.

I would expect a high master artisan proven to make them to get suddenly bombarded with business, and they will have the RP of mastery of their craft, whether that be through hardcore industry elbow-grease or zen samurai one-with-the-blade crafting.  They get to decide.  But I think most of us are and will continue to be used to middle-grade or better than average, rather than extraordinary.  The only downside here is that you have the knowledge that better things do exist, where before that was up in the air.

[Inks]

If they were easy to get other weapon grades would be pointless. It's not supposed to be a game where you have everything the best all the time as a commoner, even though that is the reality with a little effort.

[Brokkr]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

Being meta is incorporating OOC stuff into your IC behavior and RP.  Why wouldn't meta behavior be considered? It is not the word choice, it is the wink wink nod nod behind the word choice, and potentially the reaction when you see the quality of the weapon does not match this OOC descriptor word.

[Suhuy]

If you are going so meta to actually ask for an -amazing- weapon IG...I dunno, expect a hard look at your karma or something?

Expect a hard look at your karma? Because you disagree with their word choice? If use of the word amazing IC is what requires a hard look at someone's karma then you may as well do away with the whole karma system entirely because that's not what it was intended for.

Unbelievable.

Being meta is incorporating OOC stuff into your IC behavior and RP.  Why wouldn't meta behavior be considered? It is not the word choice, it is the wink wink nod nod behind the word choice, and potentially the reaction when you see the quality of the weapon does not match this OOC descriptor word.

Not sure you're aware of the near total collapse this game has just gone through. I find it interesting how fixated you seem to be with docking karma and punishments in general. And in this iteration it's not for some wild code abuse. It's because someone described the weapon of their dreams with the word amazing. Good luck with your karma reviews.

[Doublepalli]

If you can tell weapon quality, you get to decide whether you want it or not. Or take away our ability to see weapon quality if we can't make it.

Because docking karma for someone using the word amazing is stupid

[Kestria]

By this logic.. wouldn't it mean that crafters risk getting karma docked because they say they have 'mastered' a skill?  Is this also considered meta'ing?  Just.. want this clarified as people have been doing it for years   

Not sure why it is a big thing that someone says they wish a 'amazing' quality weapon, so that the merchant that is making/getting it for them, actually knows exactly what it is they want.. If you didn't want people saying 'amazing', then, perhaps change the 'amazing', to a word that actually fits in with conversation that would be acceptable.

People are always going to want 'amazing' weapons now, because that is the top tier, that will do more damage..

The change in weapon quality to USE is a good idea, and I quite like it... however my grumble about the whole quality change, is the crafting side of things.. because, jeeze that is so flawed it's painful..

If someone comes to you wanting a custom knife, for example, and they come with a really rare piece of material.. you have to tell them, well, in order for me to make this rather good for you, I first have to make two other knives, that, no one needs, no one cares about, and are just frikken pointless to make.. to make you your 'very good' knife, waste two custom crafts in the process, and make the player wait 3 IRL months for it.  Which just back logs custom crafts on staff side, for pointless crafts that are not needed, just to make the one that is.. especially if it is a ONE OFF craft that will never be sold again.. this is just going to put far more, useless and unneeded weapons in game, because people that can actually be bothered to do so, are going to be throwing CC's in for crappy weapons they are not going to sell, to get to the one they ARE going to..

And no, people are not going to ASK in game that they want their CC to be 'very good' quality, no, they are going to say that they want it as good as you can make it, and then be disappointed to the high heavens when it comes back as 'average' because you decided you're not going to waste 3 months worth of cc's on -1- item, perhaps more so because you are in a GMH and your boss has a lot of backed up CC's being needed and it dampens peoples opinion of your clan because you are spending 3 irl months making a weapon above the 'common rabble unclanned' caste.. and more so.. all of this puts a dampener on the player of the crafter. 

If you wanted to land good quality weapons only craftable in Salarri hands, it should have been done exactly that.. have it so only Salarr can make 'very good and above', and everyone else makes up to good.  Make Salarr more relevant in such regard.  Why would other tribes/GMH's that do custom pieces make 2 other pieces to get the 3rd good piece, inflating their weaponry output further for the sake of 'good'? And this is just for ONE type.. if you make an 'average' knife.. you then have to make a 'above average knife', but you couldn't then say well, I want to make the 'good' a sword.  No you have to do this 'rule of 3' for EVERY type of weapon in that slot.. the amount of flooded non salarri weapons in the game over time is going to be painful, every tribe and GMH not Salarr could end up having a huge influx of weapons just to cater to this rule.

Scrap this 3 step programme nonsense for custom crafting, and do it on the matter of materials used ALONE.  Not make 2 to make 1 good one then reset AND DO IT AGAIN to make ANOTHER good quality.... Put out a list of what materials could be used to make GOOD quality weapons, what materials could be used to make ABOVE AVERAGE quality weapons etc..

[whengravityfails]

Take into account characters going missing/storing/dying and it will lengthen that CC three month chain even further. Honestly I'd be staying away from working for the GMHs so I could just make my own CCs and not worry about people being unreasonable because it would take me likely 4 to 6 months to actually CC a weapon at the top tier of my ability.

[FamousAmos]

p.s.  brokkr probably kidding about karma review but ICly if you haven't even seen an amazing weapon how do you know there is

Is he, though?

He seems to be responding awfully serious to it, and if he was kidding, it was terrible timing at best.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

[Armaddict]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

I'm not sure this works.  Automated systems using a template do not create new objects.  They are modifiable existing objects, which makes them customized, but not 'special', and they are replicable.  Armageddon Custom Crafts are entirely new items created specifically, and kept in the database for resale.

For example, a templated custom craft would be 'a bone longsword', with fields to make it black-stained, different hilt shape, different blade edge type, etc.  But they are still bone longswords, with variations.  They don't create a new item in the database.

With recent crafting changes, we are a step closer to that being possible, I think.  But at the same time, I don't know if that's scratching the same 'itch' most Arm players have with custom crafts.  People tend to like their totally unique items that are fully created from the ground up, for them, or fulfilling a specific purpose that does not exist, or making a common-use tool into a special one, which will not happen from the 'base item up' crafting model.

[betweenford]

I think these changes really do not value a crafter's time in the slightest. They are already the least played classes in the game with very little they can actively do creativity wise per month, in a way that pretty much any other MUD does not limit itself to. Now you cannot even make a single justifiably powerful weapon without dedicating months of time to only that specific weapon type being created; which really just shows that the producers have not played in roles that are essentially demanded of them to have things created of them constantly like GMH or clans which are so barren of crafts they need everything fleshed out.

Why do people demand custom crafts of crafters so much? I never did not understood.

I get a heavy crafter wanting to make CCs since they gave up a lot of coded power to engage with the crafting part of the game at the maximum level.  But others? I'm not judging, just basic and curious so I better understand motives.

How do other muds and/or should we limit the volume of top tier weapons in the game? Obviously "should we at all" is a separate question, but I don't see producers attacking this like the Gordian Knot so soon after release.   

Custom crafters exist to make cool things. People like cool things, unique things, things unique to them or their clan. The game has 9000+ items and 99% of them are irrelevant to any give character, or unseen and defunct.

I have no clue what the second part of the post is asking lmao. How do other games handle an influx of custom weapons or top tier weapons? Usually such mechanics tend to be customizeable on the fly within the system based on an initial template. So it doesn't matter what an item is or how much of it exists. Typically such template based systems have weapons that are impacted by rarity of material, rank/ability of the crafter, a bit of rng, etc. Putting full trust into the player to keep up their end of the bargain, while flavorful elements are mostly description based. Zalanthas is not a "creativity" poor world. Its a resource poor world. If I want to slap two weighty rocks onto a stick and call it a club its a club but ig i have to spend an irl month to do so, while also putting off literally every other project.

Armageddon at this point without a major db reformatting, should really have an automated system that merely needs a cc to be approved and cleared for typos and whatnot, save for when an item has strange scripts attached to it that warrant builder or coder attention.

I'm not sure this works.  Automated systems using a template do not create new objects.  They are modifiable existing objects, which makes them customized, but not 'special', and they are replicable.  Armageddon Custom Crafts are entirely new items created specifically, and kept in the database for resale.

For example, a templated custom craft would be 'a bone longsword', with fields to make it black-stained, different hilt shape, different blade edge type, etc.  But they are still bone longswords, with variations.  They don't create a new item in the database.

With recent crafting changes, we are a step closer to that being possible, I think.  But at the same time, I don't know if that's scratching the same 'itch' most Arm players have with custom crafts.  People tend to like their totally unique items that are fully created from the ground up, for them, or fulfilling a specific purpose that does not exist, or making a common-use tool into a special one, which will not happen from the 'base item up' crafting model.

you can have an automated system that creates new db items every time you need to make a new one. It serves the purpose of being a replacement for a staffer to log in and drop a new onum, enter in some basic fields and create the item.

[Armaddict]

Yes, but the original reason why they became limited in the first place, IIRC, is database bloat.  I'm not sure exactly how this db is set up or how bloated it gets and why that's a concern (I work on SQL servers and the amount of info that can be stored is absolutely gargantuan), but they were looking to cut down on that.  So the movement towards what you're describing is kind of natural if that's the case, but that also cuts into the 'ooh-ahhh' factor of the custom craft the way we currently seem to use it.

If that's NOT why they're set up this way, my posts are irrelevant, but I'm pretty sure I remember that being an issue mentioned.