Update on Weight/Height Ranges?

[geminferno]

So, I've given it some thought and I feel as if the weight/height ranges for the races should be changed. Specifically for humans. I don't think stopping at ~200lbs (90kg) and 6'5" (78in./198cm) for humans is... practical? I mean, it would make sense for there to be some people who are just as tall as elves or as heavy as dwarves. I mean we do see obese human NPCs. I'm not saying making it limitless but increase it just a bit?

Maybe the max height could go upwards to 6'9" (82in./210cm) and the weight up to, say, 280lbs (127kg)? And before someone says "but then we'll have people who are max height and max weight" but that's already the case now so that would be irrelevant. And it also makes it more realistic since we do have a lot of characters who are fighters and packing muscle to survive out there in them wild sands.

[mansa]

Part of the game is to be able to recognize what sort of fantasy race you're dealing with at a glance.

These are the default ranges for Height and Weight, in inches and "stones":

Race	Max Height	Min Height	Max Weight	Min Weight
Human	78" 6'6" 198.12 cm	62" 5'2" 157.48 cm	9	6
Half-Elf	82" 6'10" 208.28 cm	70" 5'10" 177.8 cm	9	6
Elf	90" 7'6" 228.6 cm	74" 6'2" 187.96 cm	9	7
Dwarf	58" 4'10" 147.32 cm	50" 4'2" 127 cm	10	8
Mul	72" 6'0" 182.88 cm	60" 5'0" 152.4 cm	15	10
Half-Giant	155" 12'11" 393.7 cm	125" 10'5" 317.5 cm	90	75

I would like to know:
a) Can we have half-stone weights?
b) Why can't we have the dwarf weigh more?

[Barsook]

Half-stones would be nice.

ETA: It would be nice if the code for cloth/armor size still only does the whole stones. Less work for the coders.

ETA 2: For the variance and realism.

[geminferno]

Part of the game is to be able to recognize what sort of fantasy race you're dealing with at a glance.

These are the default ranges for Height and Weight, in inches and "stones":

Race	Max Height	Min Height	Max Weight	Min Weight
Human	78	62	9	6
Half-Elf	82	70	9	6
Elf	90	74	9	7
Dwarf	58	50	10	8
Mul	72	60	15	10
Half-Giant	155	125	90	75

Yeah but... max weight for humans, elves, and half-elves are the same so..

[Tranquil]

Weight is whatevs, but height should be limited 100%.

Why?

Height is very important in some combat rolls, and it's intended that elves be taller then humans to make them supreme in these combat rolls.

Every human is already 6'5 and Conan the Barbarian, I think it'd be a poor idea to let them be as tall as elves, so elves lose that unique factor - and coded bonus which they sorely need.

[geminferno]

Weight is whatevs, but height should be limited 100%.

Why?

Height is very important in some combat rolls, and it's intended that elves be taller then humans to make them supreme in these combat rolls.

Every human is already 6'5 and Conan the Barbarian, I think it'd be a poor idea to let them be as tall as elves, so elves lose that unique factor - and coded bonus which they sorely need.

The minimum height for elves is 74  inches. And every human isn't 6'5 already. Elves are normally more than 74 inches from what I've seen lately anyway so? Humans already are as tall as elves.

[dumbstruck]

Personally I think the minimum height for humans is unrealistically tall. My mother is 4'11. I went to high school with numerous girls that were 5' even and 5'1. I'm 5'3 (which is almost the shortest coded human height) but both my stepsister and my half sister are below or at the coded minimum human height as well, with one of them at 5'2 and one of them at 5'1. Many women are at or below that height, and are not unreasonably or even unbelievably short or suffering from some sort of medical condition about it. If anything it feels like it was definitely written by a dude who was accounting for the smallest male's height they could think of.

[Barsook]

Personally I think the minimum height for humans is unrealistically tall. My mother is 4'11. I went to high school with numerous girls that were 5' even and 5'1. I'm 5'3 (which is almost the shortest coded human height) but both my stepsister and my half sister are below or at the coded minimum human height as well, with one of them at 5'2 and one of them at 5'1. Many women are at or below that height, and are not unreasonably or even unbelievably short or suffering from some sort of medical condition about it. If anything it feels like it was definitely written by a dude who was accounting for the smallest male's height they could think of.

It's the same case for me. I know more below 5'3 women than above that.

[Nao]

The minimum weight (60kg/132lbs) is also a joke. A min height/min weight human has a BMI of 24 - nearly overweight, and absolutely not what you'd expect from some starving rinthi.

[cnemus]

I would not mind height and weight getting a look and a change considered. What that change might be, I don't know.

There are two factors I believe should be considered. The effect these values have on combat and the Zalanthas setting.

As has been mentioned, elves have a decided disadvantage in outdoors settings where most non elves will usually be mounted. I like them to have some things to balance that out, which they currently do. Any change would hopefully also take that into account.

Regarding the setting... Zalanthas is not Earth. Science is different, biology is different, humans are different. I don't think we can necessarily use 'It's this way in RL' as a justification for a change. What I would prefer is to ask is 'what should stand out as the differences between races on Zalanthas'.

Without any changes it is currently possible to app a character outside the normal range. I'm content with that as the mechanism for unusually rare exceptions.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

I'm 6'1 and I have to agree, there are a plethora of people taller than me, but so so many of the women I've known in my life have been ranging around two feet shorter. The weights would benefit from a greater variation with half-stones put in, humans should have shorter and smaller options than what's allowed for. Standard human values seem to be, again, written from a generally male perspective, and males are often my height, but rarely much taller, except few exceptions that /are/ much taller, but everyone should have the option of playing a /human/ character, and there are vast, vast populations of humans that range much shorter and smaller than the limits we've been given. Are we to assume that Zalanthas does not have that kind of range, as basic humans on earth, or must we have it so that humans are forced to be in the upper half of the ranges we're used to because 'Zalanthan humans are stronger, more mysterious, and apparently taller and heavier' than Earth humans?

I vote with the extension of downward ranges, and halfstones as an overall implement on items and pcs, for more variety and realism all around.

[dumbstruck]

I think it absolutely makes sense for 6'5 as the upward level of average human heights, my husband is about 6'-6'1, and he is already taller than most guys, his brother is about 6'5 and basically enormous to nearly everyone around him. Can humans get bigger than that? Yes, but it's definitely exceptional. The weight range, however, I agree should be increased as well, both upward and downward, I would think from probably around 90lb (if heights around 5ft were included) to 300lb or so for those who want to play obese pcs. I support adding to the upward weight range in addition to the downward but don't support adding to the upward height range because as much as I dislike elves, it's a valid point that that's one of the few edges in playability that elven pcs have, and know that if you want to play a human above 6'5 you can special app it, but don't believe that the weight changes would give the same bonuses or have the negative knock on bonuses for other races that adding to the upper human height range would have.

[Brokkr]

Most of the game output with respect to height and weight is relative, so what is the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective if min or max is changed that you are looking for?

[dumbstruck]

Most of the game output with respect to height and weight is relative, so what is the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective if min or max is changed that you are looking for?

Having women's bodies remotely realistic for a starving desert world? 132 on a 5'2 frame is not actually "malnourished" or "painfully thin" in any fashion, that's even if you leave heights alone and just adjust weights. Here is a reddit thread from an actual woman who is 5'2 whose starting weight is the lowest possible zalanthan human weight, and this how starved she looks: https://www.reddit.com/r/progresspics/comments/3pug4t/f2452_132lbs_101lbs_31lbs_16_months_long_overdue/ And that is the skinniest weight a human woman of that height in Zalanthas can be, the first before picture. So the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective is that assess -v might return a more realistic reflection of possible builds and heights for females unless women in Zalanthas being starved are just... never actually bony or malnourished looking.

[Brokkr]

Assess -v just gives a relative indication though.  I phrased my question very specifically as I know there are people who will be OCD about it not matching to RL, which is not what I am asking about.  How does it impact RP from a gameplay perspective, since assess -v is still going to show you as short and thin as you can go (and specifically not taking into account comparison to RL)?

[creeper386]

Assess -v just gives a relative indication though.  I phrased my question very specifically as I know there are people who will be OCD about it not matching to RL, which is not what I am asking about.  How does it impact RP from a gameplay perspective, since assess -v is still going to show you as short and thin as you can go (and specifically not taking into account comparison to RL)?

I think the main difference is you can't truly play a short malnourished person.

If someone chooses lightest weight, one player could still be a really fight short person, or perhaps one with some fat on them, and the other is malnourished  and skinny. But assess would show them be the same size.

Personally I'd love to see some plans to not have more height and weight be a positive bonus in all cases and perhaps see a wider range of PC sizes, from that alone.

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

[mansa]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

[mansa]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Have you ever tried to bash an elf?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bash

Notes:
...Size and strength can make a big difference in the success of a bashing attempt.

[Tranquil]

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Height affects things such as bash, subdue, etc.. general combat skills. Why bash is a bane against dwarves, for example.

It's also why most combat characters you see are max height, and why letting humans be even taller then they are would remove that special elf bonus, because combat humans would still go max height.

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Have you ever tried to bash an elf?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bash

Notes:
...Size and strength can make a big difference in the success of a bashing attempt.

No, everyone knows you stab and slash elves until they stop moving...

But seriously I had a character that went Bynner and I could bash everyone short of half giants due to sparring every ig day. I never make my humans fat and tall just for that little bit of edge if there is any.

Someone go assess -v carru, those fuckers bash the shit outta everyone.  But I guess they could be super big physically.

[LindseyBalboa]

you can spec app different weight/heights outside the Zalanthan normal range btw.

[Pariah]

you can spec app different weight/heights outside the Zalanthan normal range btw.

That seems like a really shitty way to spend a special app, you only get two a year.

Unless of course you mean that's just a request on top of your "Can I be a sorcerer puleeze" request.

[mansa]

I think the height ranges should be standard for humans.
Based on this information here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf
If you are 74 inches tall, you are taller than 95% of the male population in the USA.
The game allows you to be 78 inches tall, which is already waaaay outside the normal standard.  I do not think we should increase that for humans.


As for weight of characters, I want to be able to make my human character weigh between 130 lbs and 250 lbs (which is between 10% and 85% percentiles for human males in the USA) but I'm unable to.
You can only pick these weight ranges, and nothing inbetween.
90 kg - 198 lbs
80 kg - 176 lbs
70 kg - 154 lbs
60 kg - 132 lbs