Update on Weight/Height Ranges?

[geminferno]

So, I've given it some thought and I feel as if the weight/height ranges for the races should be changed. Specifically for humans. I don't think stopping at ~200lbs (90kg) and 6'5" (78in./198cm) for humans is... practical? I mean, it would make sense for there to be some people who are just as tall as elves or as heavy as dwarves. I mean we do see obese human NPCs. I'm not saying making it limitless but increase it just a bit?

Maybe the max height could go upwards to 6'9" (82in./210cm) and the weight up to, say, 280lbs (127kg)? And before someone says "but then we'll have people who are max height and max weight" but that's already the case now so that would be irrelevant. And it also makes it more realistic since we do have a lot of characters who are fighters and packing muscle to survive out there in them wild sands.

[mansa]

Part of the game is to be able to recognize what sort of fantasy race you're dealing with at a glance.

These are the default ranges for Height and Weight, in inches and "stones":

Race	Max Height	Min Height	Max Weight	Min Weight
Human	78" 6'6" 198.12 cm	62" 5'2" 157.48 cm	9	6
Half-Elf	82" 6'10" 208.28 cm	70" 5'10" 177.8 cm	9	6
Elf	90" 7'6" 228.6 cm	74" 6'2" 187.96 cm	9	7
Dwarf	58" 4'10" 147.32 cm	50" 4'2" 127 cm	10	8
Mul	72" 6'0" 182.88 cm	60" 5'0" 152.4 cm	15	10
Half-Giant	155" 12'11" 393.7 cm	125" 10'5" 317.5 cm	90	75

I would like to know:
a) Can we have half-stone weights?
b) Why can't we have the dwarf weigh more?

[Barsook]

Half-stones would be nice.

ETA: It would be nice if the code for cloth/armor size still only does the whole stones. Less work for the coders.

ETA 2: For the variance and realism.

[geminferno]

Part of the game is to be able to recognize what sort of fantasy race you're dealing with at a glance.

These are the default ranges for Height and Weight, in inches and "stones":

Race	Max Height	Min Height	Max Weight	Min Weight
Human	78	62	9	6
Half-Elf	82	70	9	6
Elf	90	74	9	7
Dwarf	58	50	10	8
Mul	72	60	15	10
Half-Giant	155	125	90	75

Yeah but... max weight for humans, elves, and half-elves are the same so..

[Tranquil]

Weight is whatevs, but height should be limited 100%.

Why?

Height is very important in some combat rolls, and it's intended that elves be taller then humans to make them supreme in these combat rolls.

Every human is already 6'5 and Conan the Barbarian, I think it'd be a poor idea to let them be as tall as elves, so elves lose that unique factor - and coded bonus which they sorely need.

[geminferno]

Weight is whatevs, but height should be limited 100%.

Why?

Height is very important in some combat rolls, and it's intended that elves be taller then humans to make them supreme in these combat rolls.

Every human is already 6'5 and Conan the Barbarian, I think it'd be a poor idea to let them be as tall as elves, so elves lose that unique factor - and coded bonus which they sorely need.

The minimum height for elves is 74  inches. And every human isn't 6'5 already. Elves are normally more than 74 inches from what I've seen lately anyway so? Humans already are as tall as elves.

[dumbstruck]

Personally I think the minimum height for humans is unrealistically tall. My mother is 4'11. I went to high school with numerous girls that were 5' even and 5'1. I'm 5'3 (which is almost the shortest coded human height) but both my stepsister and my half sister are below or at the coded minimum human height as well, with one of them at 5'2 and one of them at 5'1. Many women are at or below that height, and are not unreasonably or even unbelievably short or suffering from some sort of medical condition about it. If anything it feels like it was definitely written by a dude who was accounting for the smallest male's height they could think of.

[Barsook]

Personally I think the minimum height for humans is unrealistically tall. My mother is 4'11. I went to high school with numerous girls that were 5' even and 5'1. I'm 5'3 (which is almost the shortest coded human height) but both my stepsister and my half sister are below or at the coded minimum human height as well, with one of them at 5'2 and one of them at 5'1. Many women are at or below that height, and are not unreasonably or even unbelievably short or suffering from some sort of medical condition about it. If anything it feels like it was definitely written by a dude who was accounting for the smallest male's height they could think of.

It's the same case for me. I know more below 5'3 women than above that.

[Nao]

The minimum weight (60kg/132lbs) is also a joke. A min height/min weight human has a BMI of 24 - nearly overweight, and absolutely not what you'd expect from some starving rinthi.

[cnemus]

I would not mind height and weight getting a look and a change considered. What that change might be, I don't know.

There are two factors I believe should be considered. The effect these values have on combat and the Zalanthas setting.

As has been mentioned, elves have a decided disadvantage in outdoors settings where most non elves will usually be mounted. I like them to have some things to balance that out, which they currently do. Any change would hopefully also take that into account.

Regarding the setting... Zalanthas is not Earth. Science is different, biology is different, humans are different. I don't think we can necessarily use 'It's this way in RL' as a justification for a change. What I would prefer is to ask is 'what should stand out as the differences between races on Zalanthas'.

Without any changes it is currently possible to app a character outside the normal range. I'm content with that as the mechanism for unusually rare exceptions.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

I'm 6'1 and I have to agree, there are a plethora of people taller than me, but so so many of the women I've known in my life have been ranging around two feet shorter. The weights would benefit from a greater variation with half-stones put in, humans should have shorter and smaller options than what's allowed for. Standard human values seem to be, again, written from a generally male perspective, and males are often my height, but rarely much taller, except few exceptions that /are/ much taller, but everyone should have the option of playing a /human/ character, and there are vast, vast populations of humans that range much shorter and smaller than the limits we've been given. Are we to assume that Zalanthas does not have that kind of range, as basic humans on earth, or must we have it so that humans are forced to be in the upper half of the ranges we're used to because 'Zalanthan humans are stronger, more mysterious, and apparently taller and heavier' than Earth humans?

I vote with the extension of downward ranges, and halfstones as an overall implement on items and pcs, for more variety and realism all around.

[dumbstruck]

I think it absolutely makes sense for 6'5 as the upward level of average human heights, my husband is about 6'-6'1, and he is already taller than most guys, his brother is about 6'5 and basically enormous to nearly everyone around him. Can humans get bigger than that? Yes, but it's definitely exceptional. The weight range, however, I agree should be increased as well, both upward and downward, I would think from probably around 90lb (if heights around 5ft were included) to 300lb or so for those who want to play obese pcs. I support adding to the upward weight range in addition to the downward but don't support adding to the upward height range because as much as I dislike elves, it's a valid point that that's one of the few edges in playability that elven pcs have, and know that if you want to play a human above 6'5 you can special app it, but don't believe that the weight changes would give the same bonuses or have the negative knock on bonuses for other races that adding to the upper human height range would have.

[Brokkr]

Most of the game output with respect to height and weight is relative, so what is the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective if min or max is changed that you are looking for?

[dumbstruck]

Most of the game output with respect to height and weight is relative, so what is the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective if min or max is changed that you are looking for?

Having women's bodies remotely realistic for a starving desert world? 132 on a 5'2 frame is not actually "malnourished" or "painfully thin" in any fashion, that's even if you leave heights alone and just adjust weights. Here is a reddit thread from an actual woman who is 5'2 whose starting weight is the lowest possible zalanthan human weight, and this how starved she looks: https://www.reddit.com/r/progresspics/comments/3pug4t/f2452_132lbs_101lbs_31lbs_16_months_long_overdue/ And that is the skinniest weight a human woman of that height in Zalanthas can be, the first before picture. So the benefit to RP from a gameplay perspective is that assess -v might return a more realistic reflection of possible builds and heights for females unless women in Zalanthas being starved are just... never actually bony or malnourished looking.

[Brokkr]

Assess -v just gives a relative indication though.  I phrased my question very specifically as I know there are people who will be OCD about it not matching to RL, which is not what I am asking about.  How does it impact RP from a gameplay perspective, since assess -v is still going to show you as short and thin as you can go (and specifically not taking into account comparison to RL)?

[creeper386]

Assess -v just gives a relative indication though.  I phrased my question very specifically as I know there are people who will be OCD about it not matching to RL, which is not what I am asking about.  How does it impact RP from a gameplay perspective, since assess -v is still going to show you as short and thin as you can go (and specifically not taking into account comparison to RL)?

I think the main difference is you can't truly play a short malnourished person.

If someone chooses lightest weight, one player could still be a really fight short person, or perhaps one with some fat on them, and the other is malnourished  and skinny. But assess would show them be the same size.

Personally I'd love to see some plans to not have more height and weight be a positive bonus in all cases and perhaps see a wider range of PC sizes, from that alone.

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

[mansa]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

[mansa]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Have you ever tried to bash an elf?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bash

Notes:
...Size and strength can make a big difference in the success of a bashing attempt.

[Tranquil]

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Height affects things such as bash, subdue, etc.. general combat skills. Why bash is a bane against dwarves, for example.

It's also why most combat characters you see are max height, and why letting humans be even taller then they are would remove that special elf bonus, because combat humans would still go max height.

[Pariah]

Where does it state in a help file or something that weight and height actually matter in a playability standpoint?

I know stats vary min max by race which is why half giants, dwarves and muls are so combat scary.

But I don't recall seeing anywhere that height and weight matters for anything but clothing size.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Size

"...and in other instances where mass is important."

I also think this chart is pretty good for mass.


                             Dwarves   ___Elves___ 
                 Halflings    |   |   |           |  Mantises
                  |   |       |   |   |           |  |
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34
                                  |Humans||___|                                                           |______________________|
                                  |  &   | Gith                                                                  Half-Giants
                                  | Muls |         
                                  +------+       

I haven't looked at that for years, Mantis are big mother fuckers eh?

But in reference to and other things where mass is important, that's really reaching to assign that little bit of text to infer "If I don't make the biggest heaviest dude my combat skills will suffer."

Have you ever tried to bash an elf?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bash

Notes:
...Size and strength can make a big difference in the success of a bashing attempt.

No, everyone knows you stab and slash elves until they stop moving...

But seriously I had a character that went Bynner and I could bash everyone short of half giants due to sparring every ig day. I never make my humans fat and tall just for that little bit of edge if there is any.

Someone go assess -v carru, those fuckers bash the shit outta everyone.  But I guess they could be super big physically.

[LindseyBalboa]

you can spec app different weight/heights outside the Zalanthan normal range btw.

[Pariah]

you can spec app different weight/heights outside the Zalanthan normal range btw.

That seems like a really shitty way to spend a special app, you only get two a year.

Unless of course you mean that's just a request on top of your "Can I be a sorcerer puleeze" request.

[mansa]

I think the height ranges should be standard for humans.
Based on this information here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf
If you are 74 inches tall, you are taller than 95% of the male population in the USA.
The game allows you to be 78 inches tall, which is already waaaay outside the normal standard.  I do not think we should increase that for humans.


As for weight of characters, I want to be able to make my human character weigh between 130 lbs and 250 lbs (which is between 10% and 85% percentiles for human males in the USA) but I'm unable to.
You can only pick these weight ranges, and nothing inbetween.
90 kg - 198 lbs
80 kg - 176 lbs
70 kg - 154 lbs
60 kg - 132 lbs

[dumbstruck]

I think the height ranges should be standard for humans.
Based on this information here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf
If you are 74 inches tall, you are taller than 95% of the male population in the USA.
The game allows you to be 78 inches tall, which is already waaaay outside the normal standard.  I do not think we should increase that for humans.


As for weight of characters, I want to be able to make my human character weigh between 130 lbs and 250 lbs (which is between 10% and 85% percentiles for human males in the USA) but I'm unable to.
You can only pick these weight ranges, and nothing inbetween.
90 kg - 198 lbs
80 kg - 176 lbs
70 kg - 154 lbs
60 kg - 132 lbs

And, for comparison, what are the numbers for females, or are we going to get these stats again set where it seems framed by men shit again? I just... RL is enough for that. Sorry. Equal as people does not necessarily mean built the exact same physically.

[cnemus]

I fully support anyone playing the character they want, but I don't think gender is relevant to size discussions on Zalanthas. Zalanthas isn't Earth.

From character creation:

"Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she/they, etc.). The genders are all equal on Zalanthas. Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world."

https://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php

[FantasyWriter]

And, for comparison, what are the numbers for females, or are we going to get these stats again set where it seems framed by men shit again? I just... RL is enough for that. Sorry. Equal as people does not necessarily mean built the exact same physically.

Quite the opposite. It is the same because on Zalanthas, there are no differences between women and men when it comes to different bell-curves of stat bonuses/detriments/capability for one versus the other.  There are both completely capable of the same physical feats and failures as each other. You can have one or the other.  This is not Earth and humans are not homo sapiens.  Physically the same when it comes to size and muscle mass/distribution... or not.  You are projecting Earth differences between the sexes onto Zalanthans.

[dumbstruck]

I think the height ranges should be standard for humans.
Based on this information here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf
If you are 74 inches tall, you are taller than 95% of the male population in the USA.
The game allows you to be 78 inches tall, which is already waaaay outside the normal standard.  I do not think we should increase that for humans.


As for weight of characters, I want to be able to make my human character weigh between 130 lbs and 250 lbs (which is between 10% and 85% percentiles for human males in the USA) but I'm unable to.
You can only pick these weight ranges, and nothing inbetween.
90 kg - 198 lbs
80 kg - 176 lbs
70 kg - 154 lbs
60 kg - 132 lbs

And, for comparison, what are the numbers for females, or are we going to get these stats again set where it seems framed by men shit again? I just... RL is enough for that. Sorry. Equal as people does not necessarily mean built the exact same physically.

Quite the opposite. It is the same because on Zalanthas, there are no differences between women and men when it comes to different stat bonuses/detriments/capability for one over the other.  There are both completely capable of the same physical feats and failures as each other. You can have one or the other.  This is not Earth and humans are not homo sapiens.  Physically the same when it comes to size and muscle mass/distribution... or not.  You are projecting Earth differences between the sexes onto Zalanthans.

Then why would the rubric of comparison for that be mens stats listed by mansa, and not take into account womens? Are all women on Zalanthas masculinized? Are all men feminized? I'm trying to say here that if you're using a scale for only one RL gender on earth for 'normal' that skews larger than the other gender on earth to begin with, and it's already skewing high, then readjusting down but still using that scale alone and not an aggregate of both is still a disservice to the female half of the PLAYERBASE.

[FantasyWriter]

What is your suggestion to the perceived problem? Two separate tables for males and female?

Then the complaint would be that we are coding in RL stereotypes/bell-curves.

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't proposition either way.  When I play male/female characters, I tend to write their description based on RL norms because... fantasy universe and playing who I want to play.

If my person is small, I put them on the small end, if my person is big, I choose a stat on the big end. If average, somewhere in the middle.  I then never again pay attention to their coded weight and size because its a RP game.  And the numbers don't matter.

[Pariah]

As other have said, these aren't the same humans we have here.  The weakest Zalanthan is ten times stronger than the best earth human, they heal at faster rates, they have capabilities of magick and they all have psionics to a base level.

This is a game that has elves and magick, if you try and apply "realism" to it you're going to be disappointed each and ever time.

They also made men and women equal so the tables are balanced, they didn't want to have everyone picking male for larger muscle mass or strength or whatever by design, so that they could play the sex they want.

They even made a gender neutral sex for that reason, what your advocating for here would be rolling the ball in the opposite direction.

[Tailong]

Uhhh no. OP makes no difference in gender in the original post, and speaks solely about the differences in races. Why people want to mention gender as a factor is beyond me.

OP is asking for more range for more diversity in sizes. Which with the overlapping makes sense.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

I don't know.

[Halaster]

I really don't see the need to change this.  Why is the biggest Zalanthan human only 6'5" and 200 pounds?  Because they're Zalanthan humans and that's as big as we grow 'em.  If you want size outside the norms, that's a special app.

There is some coded reasons to keep them this way, and that's because of the 'size' stat.  Size is determined by a combination and height and weight, and most gear is by default sized to the average human.  If we add to the extreme ends of height/weight then it can skew that a bit.  We'd then have to potentially resize a lot of gear.  At the end of the day, I don't think it's a change worth the work - i.e. the pro's don't outweigh the con's.

[Pariah]

I don't know.

Uhhh no. OP makes no difference in gender in the original post, and speaks solely about the differences in races. Why people want to mention gender as a factor is beyond me.

OP is asking for more range for more diversity in sizes. Which with the overlapping makes sense.

I saw your frustration post Filthy Rat and that's fine, being frustrated is cool.

I think where the problem comes is if you reread this whole thread you'll see folks arguing different things.

How I interpreted it was one was talking about the different in men and women, another was talking about how the code gives coded benefits based on size, one was talking about the desire to RP being super skinny and unhealthy and others weighed in that the height/weight system is relative, meaning if I'm the tallest human you can have, and you're short, you're just short or very short, I don't get specifics.

So that's the benefit AND the problem of a discussion board right?  You might be arguing for a point on one of those aspects, but someone else will throw out another point of view that your desired outcome affects, for example Elves getting their bonus to bash cause they are bigger traditionally.

Things get brought up above and beyond the exact question that was asked.  Prime example of very recent history, we spoke on how to fix crafting, someone said that Harshlands was better than our system and that spurred Halaster to put in the effort to fix the issue.

Practical reason this would sorta suck to be outside the -norm- size..  Have you seen how much it costs to tailor things super big or super small, it's ridiculous!

[FantasyWriter]

I really don't see the need to change this.  Why is the biggest Zalanthan human only 6'5" and 200 pounds?  Because they're Zalanthan humans and that's as big as we grow 'em.  If you want size outside the norms, that's a special app.

There is some coded reasons to keep them this way, and that's because of the 'size' stat.  Size is determined by a combination and height and weight, and most gear is by default sized to the average human.  If we add to the extreme ends of height/weight then it can skew that a bit.  We'd then have to potentially resize a lot of gear.  At the end of the day, I don't think it's a change worth the work - i.e. the pro's don't outweigh the con's.

Is there any problem with the way I normally handle this?
i.e.- I write an emaciated diseased character or something like that (ICly, they would be much smaller than min). I just roll the smallest weight they can be and just RP that they are smaller, or would something like that need to be special apped for the weight reduction?

[mansa]

I think the height ranges should be standard for humans.
Based on this information here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf
If you are 74 inches tall, you are taller than 95% of the male population in the USA.
The game allows you to be 78 inches tall, which is already waaaay outside the normal standard.  I do not think we should increase that for humans.


As for weight of characters, I want to be able to make my human character weigh between 130 lbs and 250 lbs (which is between 10% and 85% percentiles for human males in the USA) but I'm unable to.
You can only pick these weight ranges, and nothing inbetween.
90 kg - 198 lbs
80 kg - 176 lbs
70 kg - 154 lbs
60 kg - 132 lbs

And, for comparison, what are the numbers for females, or are we going to get these stats again set where it seems framed by men shit again? I just... RL is enough for that. Sorry. Equal as people does not necessarily mean built the exact same physically.

The dataset I was using to get standard weights and heights of humans stated male.  I wanted to get the maximum range, and then apply that to any gender.  Nothing in my statement said that other genders needed to have different weights or heights.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

You might be arguing for a point on one of those aspects, but someone else will throw out another point of view that your desired outcome affects, for example Elves getting their bonus to bash cause they are bigger traditionally.

My desired outcome would not have affected elves getting their bonus. It is further frustrating to have someone claim they see why you're frustrated, then entirely miss the point.

The male standards of human height and sizes on earth were WHY we have the ranges we have. An entire portion of the human population and playerbase was excluded.


If the skin tones for an acceptable human character application ranged from dark black, to light brown, that would exclude other possibilities. Want to play a pale char? That's fine, put in a special app. What if there are bonuses and negatives that would affect the play of someone else if we changed something I'm not asking to change? Irrelevant. Flip the scenario so that the only acceptable skin tones are pale white to dark TAN. Now add into your imagination a sprinkling of people saying, it's fine, humans are all equal on zalanthas, so this shouldn't matter, also, if we changed this, it'd be a lot of work, and we don't need to represent all possible Earth equivalents because this is zalantahs, there is a red sun yo.

There were some responses that wanted TALLER, HEAVIER humans. I Get that. It /would/ affect combat negatively for some.

Halaster's response actually hit on the matter. There is a change in code that would take a lot of work, in regards to sizing clothes. If the change from 60 to 40kg would be a drastic rehaul of code and crafts, well that's certainly a pain in the butt.

If the change from 62inches minimum to 58 inches minimum would be a drastic rehaul of code and crafts, ditto, I guess it's a pain in the butt, and untenable.



Human height/weight is a systemic bias that has been reinforced by years of code and additions to function. It is now too hard to remove this systemic bias. Congrats, men. Please applaud.

[Pariah]

You might be arguing for a point on one of those aspects, but someone else will throw out another point of view that your desired outcome affects, for example Elves getting their bonus to bash cause they are bigger traditionally.

My desired outcome would not have affected elves getting their bonus. It is further frustrating to have someone claim they see why you're frustrated, then entirely miss the point.

The male standards of human height and sizes on earth were WHY we have the ranges we have. An entire portion of the human population and playerbase was excluded.


If the skin tones for an acceptable human character application ranged from dark black, to light brown, that would exclude other possibilities. What to play a pale char? That's fine, put in a special app. What if there are bonuses and negatives that would affect the play of someone else if we changed something I'm not asking to change? Irrelevent.

There were some responses that wanted TALLER, HEAVIER humans. I Get that. It /would/ affect combat negatively for some.

Halaster's response actually hit on the matter. There is a change in code that would take a lot of work, in regards to sizing clothes. If the change from 60 to 40kg would be a drastic rehaul of code and crafts, well that's certainly a pain in the butt.

If the change from 62inches minimum to 58 inches minimum would be a drastic rehaul of code and crafts, ditto, I guess it's a pain in the butt, and untenable.



Human height/weight is a systemic bias that has been reinforced by years of code and additions to function. It is now too hard to remove this systemic bias. Congrats, men. Please applaud.

I'm just trying to understand what is upsetting you about this.  I apologize that I apparently am not getting it.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

Okay, I must have really extreme viewpoints or something. I feel that it's not a minority not getting it, it's a majority not getting it.



"Here are male standard human sizes - x, y, z.

This is what you can play, and be considered a human, and not a rare exception."

If this doesn't upset you, maybe it never will, and there might be nothing I can do about that.

[dumbstruck]

Please look at the two sides of the above chart.

Please reference the starting size height and weight ranges of humans in game: Min height is 5'2 and weight is 130. I am being told that men and women in Zalanthas are the same and I should be okay with the fact that the exact size range seems oddly specific:


Race        Max Height   Min Height                                  Max Weight   Min Weight
Human   78" 6'6"      62"5'2"                                        198                  132

I am saying.... look at that chart. It's literally already based on only one side of that chart. And that is upsetting as hell that all the people who seem to keep telling me how it's okay because all Zalanthans are equal (they get to play Zalanthans who look like them) are playing Zalanthans who fall within a range of norms based on their specs. Hell, they even want it bigger, taller.

Then the complaint would be that we are coding in RL stereotypes/bell-curves.

That is the current complaint. The heights and weights range is an almost perfect overlap with every stat on the mens side of the chart there, and look at what the range size difference is for women. And who is expected to eat the difference? The same players who can see drugs on tv who have not been tested ON THEIR ENTIRE GENDER, and be expected to eat the difference. And it's fine, because everything caters to people who look like you, so it's /EQUAL/ that it all skews to ranges that look like you, yeah? It's fantasy, so it doesn't /matter/.

The dataset I was using to get standard weights and heights of humans stated male.  I wanted to get the maximum range, and then apply that to any gender.  Nothing in my statement said that other genders needed to have different weights or heights.

I know you didn't mean it in a way to be insulting, but the problem I had is that the last dataset used is an almost exact rip of mens heights and weights and you're asking for the exact same again, and I'm tired of my entire gender being excluded and being told it's equality because they don't NEED to be ABLE to have different weights or heights outside the norm for someone else.

Uhhh no. OP makes no difference in gender in the original post, and speaks solely about the differences in races. Why people want to mention gender as a factor is beyond me.

Can I speculate you are one of the people who has never had to watch a commercial for a medication mention in casual fasttalk how it's never 'been tested on people assigned female at birth' before but never say it during the commercial itself and had it affect you? Because that's just one of the systemic biases half of the playerbase deals with every day. This is another one. Halaster already said it's not going to change. But I feel like it's fair to at least point out that the exact reason why you have the size range that you have is precisely because it was based on a set of male gender averages at one point in time. I even included a chart. And it shows very clearly where the exclusion happens.

I'll drop it now. I just... really wish that people were not trying to shut me down on the point I was trying to make without understanding it. If the chart doesn't help, it's pointless. And since I know it won't change, it's pointless anyhow, but at least I can hope what I said was at some point understood.

[Brokkr]

The height and weight ranges were set long before the information from the internet folks are using was widely available on the internet.  Further, this whole thing seems to be fueled by "here is RL and here is Zalanthas and look at how they compare!".

Stop comparing, it is a game.  It will not always reflect real life.  As Halaster mentioned, there are coded considerations in how height and weight are used to calculate size.  Further, you do not even have the ability to tell how much someone else weighs or is tall (unless exactly equal to your own) as the game output is relative (ie, more or less than you, not 9 stones).  So this entire thing seems to come down to some cognitive dissonance between real life and Zalanthas.  At which point take a breath and remember this is a game.

[mansa]

The height and weight ranges were set long before the information from the internet folks are using was widely available on the internet.  Further, this whole thing seems to be fueled by "here is RL and here is Zalanthas and look at how they compare!".

Stop comparing, it is a game.  It will not always reflect real life.  As Halaster mentioned, there are coded considerations in how height and weight are used to calculate size.  Further, you do not even have the ability to tell how much someone else weighs or is tall (unless exactly equal to your own) as the game output is relative (ie, more or less than you, not 9 stones).  So this entire thing seems to come down to some cognitive dissonance between real life and Zalanthas.  At which point take a breath and remember this is a game.

It is a game, however, the human race is the representation of us, the players of the game.  If we were talking about Thryzn or Elf or Halfling, I would concede to your point, but we aren't.  We are talking about the player's direct representation of themselves within the gameplay space.  "Humans."  I think within the game, the size and weight should be within one or two standard deviations from the bell curve of a standard human size, whatever that size may be.

[LauraMars]

I agree that the weight/height ranges for humans in this game were designed by dudes two decades ago and it shows.

Not sure I would make the comparison to real world medical misogyny but I understand the sentiment, dumbstruck.

The girlies just wanna feel like they can be their own size in their fantasy escapism, as a treat. And I think that's pretty normal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Brokkr]

My guess is that they created ranges based somewhat on these averages, given a the consistency with some of the other races to this source*, tweaking to get the code to work how they wanted:

"An average human male stands between 6 and 6 1/2 feet tall, and weighs 180 to 200 pounds. A human female is somewhat smaller, averaging between 5 1/2 and 6 feet in height and weighing between 100 and 140 pounds."

*the source should be obvious

[Pariah]

My guess is that they created ranges based somewhat on these averages, given a the consistency with some of the other races to this source*, tweaking to get the code to work how they wanted:

"An average human male stands between 6 and 6 1/2 feet tall, and weighs 180 to 200 pounds. A human female is somewhat smaller, averaging between 5 1/2 and 6 feet in height and weighing between 100 and 140 pounds."

*the source should be obvious

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

But might need to add a disclaimer saying that certain skills take into effect height.  So folks don't get mad when their Bash is neutered.

[mansa]

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen because it is antithetical to the theme of the game.

But might need to add a disclaimer saying that certain skills take into effect height.  So folks don't get mad when their Bash is neutered.

The game already says different skills take "size" into account.

[Pariah]

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen because it is antithetical to the theme of the game.

One could argue that having gender neutral sexed characters was at one time antithetical to the theme.

Yet here we are. They added that feature and nothing exploded.

I don't see how having the height outside of the skill variance with bash and shit really matters or goes against the theme.

[mansa]

Having different sexes be able to have different sizes is what I was refering to -

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen.

[Pariah]

Having different sexes be able to have different sizes is what I was refering to -

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen.

I was sorta asking why you feel that way, not just for a confirmation of the fact you feel that way.

I never really thought about size or weight before this thread, but seeing as people actually -care- about it and it doesn't really matter as spoken by the staff themselves, outside of that little bash thing, why does it seem so outlandish to you it will never happen?  Seems like simply a quality of life improvement if anything to make people feel better about their characters, no harm no foul.

[mansa]

Having different sexes be able to have different sizes is what I was refering to -

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen.

I was sorta asking why you feel that way, not just for a confirmation of the fact you feel that way.

I never really thought about size or weight before this thread, but seeing as people actually -care- about it and it doesn't really matter as spoken by the staff themselves, outside of that little bash thing, why does it seem so outlandish to you it will never happen?  Seems like simply a quality of life improvement if anything to make people feel better about their characters, no harm no foul.

The theme of the game is that there is no difference in Genders.  There is no "females are smaller and weaker" mindset.  That doesn't exist.  That baggage that exists from the real world does not hop over into this game.  If someone wants to make a small character, there is no reason why one gender should be "smaller" than another, since both are equal.

This thread is about changing the default parameters set aside for the races, and primarily about the human race.  That can means smaller or larger than the default parameters - for any gender, as genders are equal potential.

[Pariah]

Having different sexes be able to have different sizes is what I was refering to -

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen.

I was sorta asking why you feel that way, not just for a confirmation of the fact you feel that way.

I never really thought about size or weight before this thread, but seeing as people actually -care- about it and it doesn't really matter as spoken by the staff themselves, outside of that little bash thing, why does it seem so outlandish to you it will never happen?  Seems like simply a quality of life improvement if anything to make people feel better about their characters, no harm no foul.

The theme of the game is that there is no difference in Genders.  There is no "females are smaller and weaker" mindset.  That doesn't exist.  That baggage that exists from the real world does not hop over into this game.  If someone wants to make a small character, there is no reason why one gender should be "smaller" than another, since both are equal.

This thread is about changing the default parameters set aside for the races, and primarily about the human race.  That can means smaller or larger than the default parameters - for any gender, as genders are equal potential.

I get that there is no difference or being better as a man or a woman or a genderless.  BUT, this seems like a very strange line in the sand to draw if all it changes is some bash potential and other minor things.

Or do you think that being shorter is a lesser person, I'll redirect you to some short ass Italian women I know who will beat you silly.

Again, I respect your opinion but this seems like a strange mountain to die on as they say.

[Brokkr]

It also impacts sizing for clothing, armor, exits, etc.  It isn't about "that little bash thing".

We are not going to support difference weight/height for different genders within the same race.  If you can't read the room on that one from just the GDB Staff posts, [sarcasm, sorta] please do not play in Tuluk[/sarcasm, sorta].

[Brytta Léofa]

I get that there is no difference or being better as a man or a woman or a genderless.  BUT, this seems like a very strange line in the sand to draw if all it changes is some bash potential and other minor things.

The issue isn't how big a nerf to female combat potential it is; it's that it changes female combat potential from equal to less then male.

And the problem with that is that lots of players want to play badass women fighters, and despite it being an almost ubiquitous fantasy trope over the last 20 years it is STILL very difficult for some players to wrap their head around the idea of a world with (literally coded) physical gender equality.

[LXXXVIII]

Having different sexes be able to have different sizes is what I was refering to -

If no code changes go in besides allowing females to be smaller for instance, will that just be like a setting you can do, if female display X - Y choice, if Male display X - Y choice and I guess genderless between Female X and Male Y?

That will never happen.

I was sorta asking why you feel that way, not just for a confirmation of the fact you feel that way.

I never really thought about size or weight before this thread, but seeing as people actually -care- about it and it doesn't really matter as spoken by the staff themselves, outside of that little bash thing, why does it seem so outlandish to you it will never happen?  Seems like simply a quality of life improvement if anything to make people feel better about their characters, no harm no foul.

The theme of the game is that there is no difference in Genders.  There is no "females are smaller and weaker" mindset.  That doesn't exist.  That baggage that exists from the real world does not hop over into this game.  If someone wants to make a small character, there is no reason why one gender should be "smaller" than another, since both are equal.

This thread is about changing the default parameters set aside for the races, and primarily about the human race.  That can means smaller or larger than the default parameters - for any gender, as genders are equal potential.

I get that there is no difference or being better as a man or a woman or a genderless.  BUT, this seems like a very strange line in the sand to draw if all it changes is some bash potential and other minor things.

Or do you think that being shorter is a lesser person, I'll redirect you to some short ass Italian women I know who will beat you silly.

Again, I respect your opinion but this seems like a strange mountain to die on as they say.

Not a strange mountain to die on at all if you're female, or care about how females feel when faced with the gender based limitation of their options.

Please keep it equal here, as fits the theme as previously stated.

Fun fact: women have been getting taller at a faster pace of growth than seen among men. My theory for this is that it is because of less discrimination against women and less malnourishment of women.

I've seen gross parents in the American south intentionally starving their daughters because "it is more feminine to be small." While biology may be a factor in height, grotesquely enough social factors are too. The dimorphism you observe in real life is, at least in small part, the result of biased views which do not exist in Zalanthas according to the theme.

Keep with the theme of the game and keep the height ranges for male, female, and androgynous characters the same. Want to be a super short dude like Tyrion Lannister? Go for it! Want to be a super tall woman like Brienne of Tarth? Go for it! Want to play any other concept in between? Go for it!

~ Sincerely, a biological female who is taller than the median height biological male

[Pariah]

I was under the influence that the people requesting the shorter females /were/ the female.

Again, I have no horse in the race, I honestly don't care, just didn't see it as being a huge deal if women could be shorter than men and men taller than women.

[LXXXVIII]

Because we can never get stats on the actual sex/gender of players, your guess is likely as correct as a coin flip, or even less correct given real world statistics about who games (roleplaying is the one genre where the gender of players approaches equality but it's still skewed towards men, source, a tech company I worked for).

And as others explained, because there are coded implications to height, it is a big deal and violates the theme.

[Pariah]

Because we can never get stats on the actual sex/gender of players, your guess is likely as correct as a coin flip, or even less correct given real world statistics about who games (roleplaying is the one genre where the gender of players approaches equality but it's still skewed towards men, source, a tech company I worked for).

And as others explained, because there are coded implications to height, it is a big deal and violates the theme.

Fair enough, I can see that now.

[ShaiHulud]

sings "Short people got no reason to live"..

[Riev]

Going back a couple pages, I think Dumbstruck was just asking for more range so that there was a more noticeable difference between "rail thin, dying 'rinther' and 'Gaston from Beauty and the Beast".

Currently it is between 6 and 9 stone, which is about 84lbs and 126lbs.

It sounded to me like there was a desire to just have that spread out a bit more than 40lbs of body weight. I do not necessarily think it would affect my RP, but I wanted to make sure there was that consideration. (and maybe there's no need to change it, anyway)

[Pariah]

Going back a couple pages, I think Dumbstruck was just asking for more range so that there was a more noticeable difference between "rail thin, dying 'rinther' and 'Gaston from Beauty and the Beast".

Currently it is between 6 and 9 stone, which is about 84lbs and 126lbs.

It sounded to me like there was a desire to just have that spread out a bit more than 40lbs of body weight. I do not necessarily think it would affect my RP, but I wanted to make sure there was that consideration. (and maybe there's no need to change it, anyway)

I somehow totally misunderstood it, I thought they were advocating for distinguishable differences from male/female.

But if they just want to have skinner humans or fatter humans all around.  I dunno how that changes anything.  But I'm not an expert on this at all, I didn't know that height even mattered with things.

[Patuk]

Going back a couple pages, I think Dumbstruck was just asking for more range so that there was a more noticeable difference between "rail thin, dying 'rinther' and 'Gaston from Beauty and the Beast".

Currently it is between 6 and 9 stone, which is about 84lbs and 126lbs.

It sounded to me like there was a desire to just have that spread out a bit more than 40lbs of body weight. I do not necessarily think it would affect my RP, but I wanted to make sure there was that consideration. (and maybe there's no need to change it, anyway)

Characters who weigh six ten-stone are 132lbs heavy, and 9 ten-stone is 198. The range is both higher and larger than you imply.

[Riev]

1 stone is 14lbs

My math is correct. Where is 1 stone 22lbs?

[Riev]

1 stone is 14lbs

My math is correct. Where is 1 stone 22lbs?

Why the hell is a stone equal to a kilo why is Arm always so wrong.

[Pariah]

I never understood the measures of weight and distance used in arm.

I don't know why they didn't go with either Metric or Imperial for easy of use.

I default to "leagues" outdoors which makes no sense.  Go four leagues east and one league south.

I heard someone use that once and YEARS ago, and I just kept doing it for lack of better use. I don't wanna say go five rooms, turn south go three rooms.

[Riev]

I never understood the measures of weight and distance used in arm.

I don't know why they didn't go with either Metric or Imperial for easy of use.

I default to "leagues" outdoors which makes no sense.  Go four leagues east and one league south.

I heard someone use that once and YEARS ago, and I just kept doing it for lack of better use. I don't wanna say go five rooms, turn south go three rooms.

The man rode from a league away at full speed, cover 3 miles in 3seconds and bashed me in the face before I could react.

https://gfycat.com/favoriteillustriousgoral

[mansa]

1 stone is 14lbs

My math is correct. Where is 1 stone 22lbs?

Isn't 1 "stone" equal to 1 kg?
and 1 "ten-stone" equal to 10 kg?
and 1 kg is equal to 2.2 lbs?
and 10 kg is equal to 22 lbs?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Units%20of%20Measurement

...
Mass:
All masses are measured in stones. Stones are relatively equivalent to a kilogram in real life. Larger masses, in order to avoid using too many counting markers, have become called in five-stone, ten-stone, and hundred- stone. People are typically measured in ten-stone while objects are usually measured in stone.

[Pariah]

1 stone is 14lbs

My math is correct. Where is 1 stone 22lbs?

Isn't 1 "stone" equal to 1 kg?
and 1 "ten-stone" equal to 10 kg?
and 1 kg is equal to 2.2 lbs?
and 10 kg is equal to 22 lbs?

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Units%20of%20Measurement

...
Mass:
All masses are measured in stones. Stones are relatively equivalent to a kilogram in real life. Larger masses, in order to avoid using too many counting markers, have become called in five-stone, ten-stone, and hundred- stone. People are typically measured in ten-stone while objects are usually measured in stone.

Now this could simply be a "Zalanthas is different than real earth."
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+is+1+stone+in+kg&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=CE6aY9T1NOigiLMPupyBqAc&oq=How+much+is+1+stone&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQARgBMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgcIABCwAxBDMgcIABCwAxBDSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABYAGD8D2gBcAF4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAMgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
But google says a stone is 14 pounds.
or 6 kg.

[Brokkr]

Stone is an actual measurement in real life.

In the UK, the scale I had would weigh you in stones if you wanted.

[Patuk]

Real life stones also aren't Armageddon stones, which are just kilograms. I sympathise with Riev, because his is a mistake that's easy to make.

[Pariah]

Real life stones also aren't Armageddon stones, which are just kilograms. I sympathise with Riev, because his is a mistake that's easy to make.

Stone is an actual measurement in real life.

In the UK, the scale I had would weigh you in stones if you wanted.

So wait...

You used a real life unit of measurement, but didn't use the unit of measurement how it works, you instead altered it to a different unit of measurement, while keeping the same name?

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

It's a conspiracy revolving around Penn State. WAKE UP CHALTON!

[Patuk]

Stones were kg before Brokkr was ever on staff, but yes, you are right.

[FantasyWriter]

So wait...

You used a real life unit of measurement, but didn't use the unit of measurement how it works, you instead altered it to a different unit of measurement, while keeping the same name?

We also do this with 'leagues.'

[Dar]

I've played sooo many short malnourished youths.  It's easy for me, just pick lowest and shortest number.  Everyone will see as thin and short except dwarves and elves.  Which is enough for me to play the role.