Hear me out - slight mounted stamina regeneration.

[Pariah]

As a guy who's rode a horse before, I understand it's not like sitting at a table relaxing, if you just finished filling a u-haul with furniture then go ride a horse, you won't be refreshed instantly.

However, I would argue that it is a restful activity slightly.

So I was wondering if anyone else thinks it would be a cool thing if say you go out salting, knock down your stamina to 20/100 let's say.

Then mount your beetle and ride around, if periodically (Maybe based off how skilled you are in ride) You tick back a few points of stamina?

Because if you just sit, you regain stamina, the critters of the world just have to stand there and they regain stamina.  So I just figured it would be a nice tweak to give us players you know.  I have to get outta dodge because mekillot is moving a few rooms away, but I'm low on stamina and ride from the salt flats to near the city, why would I still be at 10 stamina?

Just a thought and suggestion, what do you guys think?

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

My family raised and trained quarterhorses for several years when I was much younger. I even got to ride a racehorse that was grandsired by Rocketbar, and I mention that because I haven't bragged about it in forever.

In my experience, if your horse is just standing there, you the rider are basically sitting down resting. It can be a little a uncomfortable, but it's not exactly strenuous activity to ride them while they are merely walking. Riding a galloping horse is a bit of an exercise.

I like this, and agree that the regeneration gained should be less than gained when not riding but resting or sitting. Sucks for elves, but most things do.

[moonlit]

Riding anywhere should constantly drain stamina due to the energy required to keep balance, this is well known that it's considered a form of exercise because of that.
archive.today/2022.11.26-200842/https://www.quora.com/Is-it-tiring-to-ride-a-horse-over-a-long-distance-Does-it-require-rest

Also, the poison nerfs destroyed a careful balance that was set for years, all combat commands should be disabled while mounted until it can be worked out how long the delays on all commands should be.

It should also not be possible to hitch an animal while holding things in both hands, like the hiding fix.

[Pariah]

Riding anywhere should constantly drain stamina due to the energy required to keep balance, this is well known that it's considered a form of exercise because of that.
archive.today/2022.11.26-200842/https://www.quora.com/Is-it-tiring-to-ride-a-horse-over-a-long-distance-Does-it-require-rest

That's an interesting read, but it struck me like they were talking about competitions or races over long distances, we are just walking our beetles around unless something scary is chasing us which then is run e e e e or whatever.

The stamina of a mount used to be a horrible deficiency as an outdoor player, but when they added the ability to feed your mount, that became manageable and more realistic.  So now a fully fed mount (non-inix) will regenerate fast and quick.

So as you see about from the Rat guy, he contradicts your dude on Quora and I tend to go with first hand knowledge versus random internet posters.  I mean, I don't think Filthy is lying do you?

Also, the poison nerfs destroyed a careful balance that was set for years, all combat commands should be disabled while mounted until it can be worked out how long the delays on all commands should be.

This has literally nothing to do with what I posted about.  But if you're worried about something being broken, I would recommend opening a request with staff.  We can't get deep into the weeds of what poisons do or don't do outside of help poison or they will just lock this topic and call it a day.

It should also not be possible to hitch an animal while holding things in both hands, like the hiding fix.

Not staff, but I assume this is for playability reasons, most folks either fight two handed, dual wield or shield and weapon.  So if you instituted this change, any desert elf or mounted player who could hitch two mounts could just go:

E
hitch inix
stand inix
run
e e e e e e

In a matter of seconds and steal that Byn Sergeants resting mount, or that ace stalker assassin who could kill him in a blink of an eye.  I'm not sure if that's what they want, I know it's not what I want.  It's already grossly easy to steal someone's mount if you want.

[dunecrawler]

It's already grossly easy to steal someone's mount if you want.[/b]

What?

If a mount is hitched to you, it's impossible to steal. Until very recently, I couldn't even steal your mount if you were asleep.

[Pariah]

It's already grossly easy to steal someone's mount if you want.[/b]

What?

If a mount is hitched to you, it's impossible to steal. Until very recently, I couldn't even steal your mount if you were asleep.

...Also, the poison nerfs destroyed a careful balance that was set for years, all combat commands should be disabled while mounted until it can be worked out how long the delays on all commands should be.

It should also not be possible to hitch an animal while holding things in both hands, like the hiding fix.

Are you guys trying to get my thread locked and closed? Can we just comment on the actual point of the post?

[Mellifera]

As a guy who's rode a horse before, I understand it's not like sitting at a table relaxing, if you just finished filling a u-haul with furniture then go ride a horse, you won't be refreshed instantly.

However, I would argue that it is a restful activity slightly.

Ignoring whether this would be a good change or not for balance, I can't agree on this point or trying to argue for this from a realism perspective. Riding horses through rough terrain or over long distances is fucking exhausting in my personal experience, and is widely considered pretty intensive exercise.  If we were going off what's 'realistic', riding mounts would almost definitely slowly drain stamina.

I guess you can kind of rest when you're remaining still, but for me it was still uncomfortable, made my body ache, and didn't exactly let me recover, it just wasn't more tiring than moving.

[Pariah]

As a guy who's rode a horse before, I understand it's not like sitting at a table relaxing, if you just finished filling a u-haul with furniture then go ride a horse, you won't be refreshed instantly.

However, I would argue that it is a restful activity slightly.

Ignoring whether this would be a good change or not for balance, I can't agree on this point or trying to argue for this from a realism perspective. Riding horses through rough terrain or over long distances is fucking exhausting in my personal experience, and is widely considered pretty intensive exercise.  If we were going off what's 'realistic', riding mounts would almost definitely slowly drain stamina.

I guess you can kind of rest when you're remaining still, but for me it was still uncomfortable, made my body ache, and didn't exactly let me recover, it just wasn't more tiring than moving.

I totally respect your opinion, I've never rode super far so I don't know for sure.

I am not really basing it on -realism- per say, because we are talking about a world with Magick and Elves.

I am more basing it on how the rest of the world works when you take the PVE element into effect.

I can chase a jozhal ten rooms or whatever it takes to tire it out, and then sit there with it, while it stands, and it will recover it's fatigue in mere minutes, where if I am mounted idle, I recover none.

That's sorta my frame of reference as to why I feel this would be nice to have a bit of mounted regeneration.

Maybe only when idle would be fair, as when you're actively kicking your mount to go over rocks and shit, you're working, but while you're sitting in a spot waiting on someone to greb, or whatever, maybe gain a little back?

[kahuna]

If sitting in a room doing nothing you should always regenerate. This has nothing to do with what happens IRL and everything to do with playability of the game. So yes I'm all for that. Mounts should regenerate slowly too, you shouldn't have to "rest" them codedly for them to slightly regain movement points.

Pretty sure the whole rest to regain is a hold over from stock diku anyway.

[Tailong]

We cannot equate riding inix, gwoshi, warbeetles or horses, with riding horses in real life. We do not know enough about the mechanics of riding on Zalanthas to make a comparison. The saddles alone are huge, and some are so big, you can put a small box on top. So, I am all for a slight increase as time goes by if you are leisurely riding. If you are running the mount, no, it should stop.

[mansa]

Maybe horses should regenerate stamina while standing.

[Pariah]

Maybe horses should regenerate stamina while standing.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  To my knowledge there are not horses in game.

So unless I'm mistaken, I think you're trying to link reality to this game we play.

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Seems that folks want a lot of realism in a game with magick and elves, and that's not well realistic.

[Lotion]

Maybe horses should regenerate stamina while standing.

currently all mounts can regenerate stamina while standing and mounted if they are fed

[ShaiHulud]

"I'm not sure what you mean by this.  To my knowledge there are not horses in game."

So, all this horse meat I've been eating is...what?

[Pariah]

"I'm not sure what you mean by this.  To my knowledge there are not horses in game."

So, all this horse meat I've been eating is...what?

It's the Zalanthan beyond meat brand of vegan Patties.

[ShaiHulud]

"I'm not sure what you mean by this.  To my knowledge there are not horses in game."

So, all this horse meat I've been eating is...what?

It's the Zalanthan beyond meat brand of vegan Patties.

And this is why everything is going to...horse shit.

[LidlessEye]

Maybe horses should regenerate stamina while standing.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  To my knowledge there are not horses in game.

So unless I'm mistaken, I think you're trying to link reality to this game we play.

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Seems that folks want a lot of realism in a game with magick and elves, and that's not well realistic.

There actually are horses in game. It's just not common knowledge.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

After rereading all of this, I've seen some good points, and have now become undecided.

In my personal experience, I was in my late teenage years (in good shape), on Earth, in a pretty nice temperate area, often riding in shaded woods, and never ever battling a sandstorm. Also, was on a horse, not on a beetle. (pretty sure the saddles on beetles are 'absurdly tiny'. Perhaps that's just in comparison to the beetle.)

In my mind's eye, I'm trying to picture myself being exhausted, getting up onto a beetle in the desert, riding for several leagues, and then... being less exhausted? That's likely to happen, to a very small degree. It's also just as likely that in bad conditions, and traversing slopes and steeply graded dunes, the opposite would be the case, that I'd wear out what little stamina I have left.

Discarding realism, and going instead for playability, does having stamina regenerate while mounted help the entire playerbase? It seems to lean a touch towards mounted riders, which could be fine. There's no incredibly pressing issue that needs to be addressed, like stamina /loss/ while mounted. I'm having trouble finding the 'pros' that really contribute to this change... Pros that are for the sake of playability, that is.



Also, moonlit, thank you for that article. I learned that the technique I used when riding was called 'posting', and can now settle an argument with my late mom that has been replaying in my head for twenty years where she claimed I was cheating, and hurting the horse. I feel so vindicated that I had to share.

[Brokkr]

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Vulnerabilities are just as important as strengths.  As a rider, you have access to a mount stamina pool to allow movement, instead of utilizing your own.  It is several multiples the size of your own.  The vulnerabilities that currently pair with this is not regenerating stamina while mounted and limited mount stamina regen that can require resting them (just as you would need to rest to recover stamina).

What vulnerabilities would you want to switch in to replace these?  Because there absolutely would need to be a replacement.

[Pariah]

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Vulnerabilities are just as important as strengths.  As a rider, you have access to a mount stamina pool to allow movement, instead of utilizing your own.  It is several multiples the size of your own.  The vulnerabilities that currently pair with this is not regenerating stamina while mounted and limited mount stamina regen that can require resting them (just as you would need to rest to recover stamina).

What vulnerabilities would you want to switch in to replace these?  Because there absolutely would need to be a replacement.

The first thing that comes to mind, which makes total sense I feel, but would probably cause a revolt of the playerbase if they had to do this based on other things like item decay and whatnot is being required to water them to get full stamina regen capabilities.

Currently, we can feed them till their full and they regen pretty damn well there (Kudos to whomever made that a thing as it's a great way to themely dispose of meat icly as a hunter character)

What if folks who truly want to get the most outta their beetle/sunback/inix/flying dragon mount had to not only feed them, but water them?

Since I play mostly outdoors, I go through water at a decent clip, I've even had in character conversations with folks about it and they are shocked how many waterskins of water I go through because I'm foraging, killing things, resting against a cave wall, mining, whatever and their sitting in the town, crafting or socializing (Not a slight against them, different strokes for different folks).

It was always handwaved that mounts of whatever type were fed and watered at the stables, but what if you take your mount out for a long time?  What if it's out and you "ranger quit" over multiple weeks and playtimes?  Currently all you have to do is feed it, what if you had to water it?

It would add a different dynamic to them and treat them more as a living thing or a pet than just some object that stands up and sits down when I tell it.

Plus it would put more of an emphasis on the importance of finding water in this water scarce world we live in.  As well as potentially being another coin sink so that Stalker A doesn't get rich from salting for a day and filling seven sacks of salt for multiple in game days and have thousands of sid lying around.

I dunno, I'm just sorta throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it would stick, but I do honestly feel like the outdoorsman experience needs some tweaks.  Currently there is a play cycle that almost everyone needs to follow even D-elfs and Tribals.

Go out at dawn, hunt/greb/explore/raid, come back at dusk, mostly due to certain gates closing or fear of being unable to see in front of your face, and this has pros and cons right?  Here is my list:

Pro:
Sometimes can meet people as you wait for gates to open as they prepare, "Hey, you look like a salter, going salting?" etc etc.

Being inside SOMETIMES can give you the ability to link up and RP with the social characters or in town based characters who never leave. (Lately my experience is people don't hang out at bars, so that's not as much of a pro anymore.

Potential but rare ability to beg a guard or templar to open the gates so you don't get eaten in the dark. (Sorta joking, but I've done it)

Cons:
When you fail to find that in town RP, you're faced with two options, way everyone in creation you know, or sit and idle at the bar, or just say fuck it and log out and come back later.

Say you log in at dusk, and you have thirty minutes or so to just hope you can find something to do, that's sorta a buzzkill, because you're like, well fuck, I wanted to get in and rock and roll, guess I'll not because of the point above.

Certain guild/subguilds are literally useless in the town, their skills are tied to outdoor only things, forage, scan, listen, hide, sneak and while I do know you can train them and try them in town sometimes with success, it's always seemed super twinky to me when you see Amos the hunter, stealthily going about Allanak at all hours of the night.  Because hiding behind a barrel and sneaking between crowds of people is different then camouflaging yourself in the dunes and sneaking from landmark to landmark.

Summary:

If you want to be a true outdoorsman, like only come in cities when you have a reason, need to buy something, need to get healed, need to have a meeting.  Is it possible now?  Sure but you're at such a disadvantage with the way the regeneration rates work for yourself and mounts outside versus the things that roam the outdoors.  So if I'm lost in a sandstorm in the red and my beetle is tired, I'm tired, and I pop down and rest, those raptors that move a room every few minutes are just moving room, tick tick tick tick tick tick, move a room tick tick tick tick tick all those ticks are regeneration possibilities.

Let's say in a scenario I beat a Raptor down to terrible condition but had to run, use the last of my stamina and my mounts stamina getting ten rooms away.  Pop a squat with my beetle and wait, that raptor can track me, and each tick (I use this word as a placeholder, I don't know what you guys call it when stamina is regained) he's regaining not only his health and his stamina, because unless it's been changed I've seen things come from Near Death to full HP rather quickly with no sleep npc wise, while I might have gained 20 stamina, and my mount who can really tell?

What eventually has happened in many of those scenarios is a healed up raptor eventually stalks into your area, and kills and eats you.

Maybe I'm being idealistic and unrealistic in my hope that we could make outdoor characters truly outdoor characters and I feel that making mounts act more the like critters they are (War beetles are just drov beetles that are tamed right?).  Then that would give you more opportunity to do that.  I think that you're already heading in the right direction with that staff announcement you guys posts of https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58549.0.html that folks have asked for for YEARS.

But to me, the perfect arm experience would be being able to wake up at my hidden camp somewhere, build a first, cook breakfast (making building a fire easier, dung is a bitch to find), maybe hang out a bit and way some folks, go out hunting and gathering what I and my (customers?) friends need.  Exploring, probably die, but if not come back and hang out in my hidden camp for the night or when I'm damn ready cause I'm a ranger, ain't nobody scared of the dar...Mantis Head!

Everyone dies but that scenario there would be my favorite way to live my short little life.

Sorry I went off on a little tangent, but that's why I would like mounts to be more alike to outside critters, so I could simply spend more time outdoors on my outdoor guys.

[Agent_137]

@Pariah I've experienced the same issues and frustration, but I will say they are very specific to a outdoorsman trying to make it in the fucking desert.

When you get the chance, try a northern outdoorsman or a desert elf or a human tribal.

[FantasyWriter]

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Vulnerabilities are just as important as strengths.  As a rider, you have access to a mount stamina pool to allow movement, instead of utilizing your own.  It is several multiples the size of your own.  The vulnerabilities that currently pair with this is not regenerating stamina while mounted and limited mount stamina regen that can require resting them (just as you would need to rest to recover stamina).

What vulnerabilities would you want to switch in to replace these?  Because there absolutely would need to be a replacement.

If you can charge up to (for example) 80% while riding, you should also run down from 100% to 80% while riding.  Riding is tiring if you are rested, restful if you are warn out.
You could also tie this to ride skill.  A new rider could go from 100% stamina to 50% stamina, but would also be able to recover from 5% stamina to 50% stamina.
Maxxed ranger type characters, this number may be somewhere closer to 80 or 90%.

[Dar]

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Vulnerabilities are just as important as strengths.  As a rider, you have access to a mount stamina pool to allow movement, instead of utilizing your own.  It is several multiples the size of your own.  The vulnerabilities that currently pair with this is not regenerating stamina while mounted and limited mount stamina regen that can require resting them (just as you would need to rest to recover stamina).

What vulnerabilities would you want to switch in to replace these?  Because there absolutely would need to be a replacement.

If you can charge up to (for example) 80% while riding, you should also run down from 100% to 80% while riding.  Riding is tiring if you are rested, restful if you are warn out.
You could also tie this to ride skill.  A new rider could go from 100% stamina to 50% stamina, but would also be able to recover from 5% stamina to 50% stamina.
Maxxed ranger type characters, this number may be somewhere closer to 80 or 90%.

love it

[Inks]

Having to rest mount is a big deal for game balance and realism I think. Gotta give these elves some sorta chance to jump you!

[Brokkr]

I can't stress enough that what I'm trying to put across is consistency and playability versus the other game denizens (NPC critters and humans who restore stamina by just standing there).

Vulnerabilities are just as important as strengths.  As a rider, you have access to a mount stamina pool to allow movement, instead of utilizing your own.  It is several multiples the size of your own.  The vulnerabilities that currently pair with this is not regenerating stamina while mounted and limited mount stamina regen that can require resting them (just as you would need to rest to recover stamina).

What vulnerabilities would you want to switch in to replace these?  Because there absolutely would need to be a replacement.

If you can charge up to (for example) 80% while riding, you should also run down from 100% to 80% while riding.  Riding is tiring if you are rested, restful if you are warn out.
You could also tie this to ride skill.  A new rider could go from 100% stamina to 50% stamina, but would also be able to recover from 5% stamina to 50% stamina.
Maxxed ranger type characters, this number may be somewhere closer to 80 or 90%.

As Inks sort of alluded to, I am talking a real vulnerability that would potentially allow someone a good opportunity to kill your character.  Your above example would just mean you were pretty much always at a set level of stamina, because you would move up or down to it.

[Pariah]

...

As Inks sort of alluded to, I am talking a real vulnerability that would potentially allow someone a good opportunity to kill your character.  Your above example would just mean you were pretty much always at a set level of stamina, because you would move up or down to it.

So elves who are a much smaller subset of the playerbase having a chance to attack/kill/harass you is the main reason against this?

[Armaddict]

So elves who are a much smaller subset of the playerbase having a chance to attack/kill/harass you is the main reason against this?

Not elves, and not necessarily death.  I know it may not make sense to you yet, or may never will, but it falls into the 'realism vs playability' scale, where ideas can't always be automatically accepted just because they are realistic, or just because they improve gameplay.

In this case, it's because there are some unrealistic benefits/detriments around riding that are based on playability, and the scale of stamina is one of them.  It's about inconvenience.   It's about the possibility of poor circumstance based off of something that is foreseeable, so that you can take the gamble (I could go do x, but that would result in the chance of y).  It's about the chance encounter in the wilderness at the well-known water hole that can be both friendly or unfriendly, but will not happen if the stamina games get 'too comfortable'.

A lot of 'weird' things in the game are at least one-foot-in on this sort of game design.  Brokkr is saying that if you can come up with a -real- downside to what you propose that could create these sort of aforementioned scenarios or some new ones that are likewise 'chances for things to happen', it could be entertained more, but he's not interested in removing the small downsides of ride in its current state.

[Pariah]

So elves who are a much smaller subset of the playerbase having a chance to attack/kill/harass you is the main reason against this?

Not elves, and not necessarily death.  I know it may not make sense to you yet, or may never will, but it falls into the 'realism vs playability' scale, where ideas can't always be automatically accepted just because they are realistic, or just because they improve gameplay.

In this case, it's because there are some unrealistic benefits/detriments around riding that are based on playability, and the scale of stamina is one of them.  It's about inconvenience.   It's about the possibility of poor circumstance based off of something that is foreseeable, so that you can take the gamble (I could go do x, but that would result in the chance of y).  It's about the chance encounter in the wilderness at the well-known water hole that can be both friendly or unfriendly, but will not happen if the stamina games get 'too comfortable'.

A lot of 'weird' things in the game are at least one-foot-in on this sort of game design.  Brokkr is saying that if you can come up with a -real- downside to what you propose that could create these sort of aforementioned scenarios or some new ones that are likewise 'chances for things to happen', it could be entertained more, but he's not interested in removing the small downsides of ride in its current state.

I'll leave that for you more creative folks to look for, I've always thought the bend of everything leaning towards PVP was a bit much.  I understand this is a game where codedly I can play a dude for a RL year and kill that newbie hunter for his boots and be within the rules, but I would never look to do something like that because I don't enjoy roleplaying someone of that slant.

I do get it, I've seen plenty of posts on here where folks said they play this game to cut up people with bone swords.

It's just not for me, I look at ways to make the game more enjoyable and alive, not just ways to kill someone.

(Had to run to a C Level meeting, so was typing fast on my phone, sorry if this comes across sorta short.)

[Armaddict]

So elves who are a much smaller subset of the playerbase having a chance to attack/kill/harass you is the main reason against this?

Not elves, and not necessarily death.  I know it may not make sense to you yet, or may never will, but it falls into the 'realism vs playability' scale, where ideas can't always be automatically accepted just because they are realistic, or just because they improve gameplay.

In this case, it's because there are some unrealistic benefits/detriments around riding that are based on playability, and the scale of stamina is one of them.  It's about inconvenience.   It's about the possibility of poor circumstance based off of something that is foreseeable, so that you can take the gamble (I could go do x, but that would result in the chance of y).  It's about the chance encounter in the wilderness at the well-known water hole that can be both friendly or unfriendly, but will not happen if the stamina games get 'too comfortable'.

A lot of 'weird' things in the game are at least one-foot-in on this sort of game design.  Brokkr is saying that if you can come up with a -real- downside to what you propose that could create these sort of aforementioned scenarios or some new ones that are likewise 'chances for things to happen', it could be entertained more, but he's not interested in removing the small downsides of ride in its current state.

I'll leave that for you more creative folks to look for, I've always thought the bend of everything leaning towards PVP was a bit much.  I understand this is a game where codedly I can play a dude for a RL year and kill that newbie hunter for his boots and be within the rules, but I would never look to do something like that because I don't enjoy roleplaying someone of that slant.

I do get it, I've seen plenty of posts on here where folks said they play this game to cut up people with bone swords.

It's just not for me, I look at ways to make the game more enjoyable and alive, not just ways to kill someone.

(Had to run to a C Level meeting, so was typing fast on my phone, sorry if this comes across sorta short.)

It's not really a PvP mechanic, it's a survival-game mechanic.  Survival games notoriously insert inconveniences to create challenges or survival scenarios that result in challenges or odd events.  PvP in Armageddon, at least by intention, is a lot less of a 'Go after other players!' and a lot more about including other players in your survival scenarios.  The ruthlessness and underhandedness and overall 'meanness' isn't about permissiveness for cruelty, it's about including other players in the challenges you face, because ultimately players are better at creating challenges to overcome than any DIKU mud will ever really set up.  Without it, the concept of 'roleplaying in a brutal harsh world where survival is hard and life is cruel' is really just learning some code tidbits just like any other survival game.   With it, it turns into a need for hypervigilance and a force reduction of trust that makes cooperative endeavors gambles and makes death more certain, leading through the next playthrough of the hardcore-roleplay-roguelike.

My desert-elf raider isn't created because I want to chase people all over the known shooting arrows.  It's because I want to be part of a harsh desert environment where mistakes can cost the ultimate price, and where I am constantly fending off that ultimate price myself as well; you, the player, help me in the coolness of that story by merely existing.  You, the character, are just another threat or opportunity in an entire game of threats and opportunities, but you are far more interesting.