Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Nao]

Related to the talk about grind above, I'm not a fan at all of the new poisons. I think the potency stuff is somewhat cool barring the decay, but the cures and the cure system is horrible and only gives crappy deaths.

Dying even after taking four cures should not be a thing, in my honest opinion!

Cures apparently aren't working properly, though staff didn't give any details on that.

I'm also very disappointed with how the poison changes turned out, but it seems like a dead horse at this point.

[Hestia]

It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much.  That could be on me.  In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me.  Mostly a nothing burger.  But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.

It can take a bit to get used to animating in the heat of the moment.  In this case, it was a brand new Staff member that didn't notice the gith they loaded up had master archery.  And since you got dropped to -8, apparently not much time to figure out what to do afterwards before the mantis head.

The exact opposite is also true.  We had a request from a player to kill off their well-known character in lieu of storage. Circumstances were perfect for accommodating this particular request. So I loaded up a beastie during an event their character was participating in. Unfortunately, I didn't check to see the beastie's stats. They sucked. And they didn't have the right skills to do the job - I had loaded up the wrong mob (there were a few, with different skillsets, of the same type of beastie).  The PC made quick work of the beastie. It took another couple events to finally get it right.

[Kismetic]

It's something I probably should've reached out about, but at the time I didn't expect much.  That could be on me.  In the end, I used it as an example of something that happened to me.  Mostly a nothing burger.  But the point was meant to be, worse things have happened to others.

It can take a bit to get used to animating in the heat of the moment.  In this case, it was a brand new Staff member that didn't notice the gith they loaded up had master archery.  And since you got dropped to -8, apparently not much time to figure out what to do afterwards before the mantis head.

I appreciate the explanation, it does mean a lot to hear it.  Thank you.

The exact opposite is also true.  We had a request from a player to kill off their well-known character in lieu of storage. Circumstances were perfect for accommodating this particular request. So I loaded up a beastie during an event their character was participating in. Unfortunately, I didn't check to see the beastie's stats. They sucked. And they didn't have the right skills to do the job - I had loaded up the wrong mob (there were a few, with different skillsets, of the same type of beastie).  The PC made quick work of the beastie. It took another couple events to finally get it right.

That's pretty funny.  And I understand, shit happens.  You could fill my honest mistakes in a thread of its own.  This was a smaller reason, all said, but I appreciate the explanations no less.

[Dar]

I would appreciate your thoughts, folks.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58565.msg1082671.html#new

[Vwest]

Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.

I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.

Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!

Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.

[Reiloth]

Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.

I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.

Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!

Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.

This is a good example of giving benefit of the doubt. Just at a glance, they were talking just recently about how removing the karma timers may mess with people's karma and zero it out as a bug (because it's code), and to put in a request about it if that's the case.

[dumbstruck]

If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).

[Barsook]

If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).

[Reiloth]

If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).

I think that's a really great call -- Putting it in the game MOTD / News that your karma might be funky if it's been a while (years) since you logged in. After all, there was karma problems when they went from 8 to 3 and needed some manual setting, etc.  So a returning player from a WHILE ago might find their karma is really funky.

[Delirium]

(I should learn not to make statements like "this is the last time I'll post here" and say more accurately "this is the last time I'll hash out this particular topic", hah. Ironic, considering the post I want to make.

Being frank, I still have no desire to return, but I do desire to see the game do better, and am watching the discussion.)

Brokkr-- I have a strong suspicion that wires are getting crossed by word choice. Try replacing the word 'empathy' with 'tact' and see how that sounds to you?

I can imagine that taking the time to consider how your words may impact someone sounds like additional work, but I promise that it reaps huge dividends down the road. I've had a very similar issue and it's still a work in progress. I can come across as terse or antagonistic when my intent is actually to be honest and state my viewpoint, in hopes of open communication.

It's been years of work recognizing speech patterns and word choices and making adjustments to better communicate my intent and not just my meaning. (I won't get into how gender affects perceived voice here, but that also definitely comes into play). It will never be perfect as sometimes people are going to read things in a negative light or take feedback poorly, and I've learned that I can't torment myself (and others) by re-hashing issues to try and find "the right way" to say something in the hopes that my intent will come across and actual communication can happen-- sometimes people just aren't receptive. Or personalities don't mix. Or a situation is untenable. That's life.

Better communication is still worth the effort. It will never be perfect but striving for tact and mutual understanding helps immensely in reaching a positive result, though it does require honest effort from both parties.

[Aromit]

Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.

I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.

Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!

Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.

Taking a quick glance at this you haven't logged in for approx 6-7 years? We've had multiple changes to the karma systems since then. Maybe send in a request for clarification as there is no conspiracy involving your account.

[kahuna]

Better communication is still worth the effort. It will never be perfect but striving for tact and mutual understanding helps immensely in reaching a positive result, though it does require honest effort from both parties.

Have you ever heard the stories and reports of Germans working in Japan? It's kind of funny but I can relate to it personally (was raised in a german household), anyways the Germans didn't really get along with their Japanese coworkers since they prefer being direct, leaving when the work is done (Japanese work culture can be pretty toxic), and basically never beating around the bush. Japanese culture is almost the complete opposite, they have a lot of traditions they hold to in the work place, and they tend to waste a lot of time doing menial tasks and other things that the Germans found to be quite pointless and maddening to a degree.

I think it's funny but it applies here in this semi-serious discussion going on about Arm and how people communicate differently. I doubt it will help overall but it's something of a fun read if you get time to research it.

[Brokkr]

Got a message from an old Byn player to give the game another chance, they were adding new stuff and need players for things, the staff tone was better, they're addressing some of their abuse issue, times are changing, etc.

I was skeptical, but I figured worse case, I can just go back to not playing if its more of the same. I check my account, still have karma, so I fiddle with a character, but log off due to lack of time.

Log back in to get it done and karma was zeroed. Not even a snarky e-mail!

Why so petty? Just ban my account if you don't want me to come back. This just says you want an extra body in the game, but you also want me to know you're still giving me stink eye. That's weird as hell, guys.

Taking a quick glance at this you haven't logged in for approx 6-7 years? We've had multiple changes to the karma systems since then. Maybe send in a request for clarification as there is no conspiracy involving your account.

Or I can just fix it, which I have done.

[Brokkr]

If that isn't in the motd/login screen thing, it probably should be, along with the thing about avoiding poisons, just because those should be available information for people not following the GDB. (Yes, that is feedback on playing! I don't recall if they currently are but if they aren't, they should be).

I think that's a really great call -- Putting it in the game MOTD / News that your karma might be funky if it's been a while (years) since you logged in. After all, there was karma problems when they went from 8 to 3 and needed some manual setting, etc.  So a returning player from a WHILE ago might find their karma is really funky.

Unlike other games, our MOTD is a file on the server that you can not change IG or with our web tools.  Thus, it very rarely changes.

That said, see the announcement for web developer.  This would be an example of the kind of thing we would like to change, so more Staff could do it.

[Gunnerblaster]

It's been a couple years since I've logged into ARM. Honestly, the main thing preventing me from getting back into it is that I'm afraid the game might be "smaller" than it used to be, back when I played. I remember averaging 50~70 players, on peak nights, and part of me is concerned the playerbase has only shrunk since I last played.

Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.

And, lastly, as embarrassingly as it is, I don't remember how to actually get into the game. I remember there used to be a website client one could use to login, and you could use clients and stuff, but I don't remember how to do any of that, anymore.

[CirclelessBard]

It's been a couple years since I've logged into ARM. Honestly, the main thing preventing me from getting back into it is that I'm afraid the game might be "smaller" than it used to be, back when I played. I remember averaging 50~70 players, on peak nights, and part of me is concerned the playerbase has only shrunk since I last played.

Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.

And, lastly, as embarrassingly as it is, I don't remember how to actually get into the game. I remember there used to be a website client one could use to login, and you could use clients and stuff, but I don't remember how to do any of that, anymore.

Having returned after a multi-year hiatus, I'd be happy to give you my perspective (albeit one that is limited, being just one player's perspective):

I was slightly intimidated by the new class system. Decision paralysis set in for a few minutes as I worked to figure out what the closest thing to my favorite old guild was. Some guilds feel like they have one perfect match (merchant -> artisan), other guilds feel like they are really split apart (ranger -> stalker, adventurer, or raider?). Honestly, I think it's a good system. I remember some guilds feeling like really weak choices compared to others, and most people were rangers and merchants, while very few were pickpockets. It would be interesting to see what the class breakdown has been since the new system came out.

The game is definitely smaller than it used to be. I think that's probably what spurred this thread on. Compared to 10 years ago, the game has lost about 90-100 unique weekly logins on average. Compared to about 5 years ago the game lost about 50 unique weekly logins on average. (That is from checking the weekly updates on the site.) This seems to have translated to a peak of 40-45 players or so, from what I've seen. My playtimes are all over the place, so I've noticed that off-peaks have more players than in the past and peak times have less.

As a side note, it's actually pretty easy to log into the game. You can check this page out for instructions: https://www.armageddon.org/intro/telnet.php You should use a client, like MUSHClient or Mudlet. I personally prefer Mudlet since it plays nicer with my screen reader, but it's worth trying both out.

---

It's great to see staff addressing the issue of stagnation directly with a plethora of new additions to the game: Mul Outpost, sorcerers, and karma changes to name a few. I think what has been under-addressed so far will really help more in the long term: adjusting how staff communicate with players to make it more tactful across the board, making the safety related rules more clear, making the game and the staff more respectful of the player's time. As nice as new additions to the game are, they do a lot of "pulling" - that is, they attract players who are specifically interested in those things into putting in a character app and seeing what's going on. But what will "keep" those new and returning players around long-term, well after they are done trying out the new features, is an effort to address some of the things that become bigger issues as time goes on. So I'm curious to hear how discussions go staff-side on some of those items.

[Kestria]

Another part of me is also nervous to get back into it because of all the sheer amounts of changes and additions. For reference, there were just the normal Warrior, Ranger, Merchant, etc. classes when I played. I don't know anything about all these new class break up's and splits and stuff.

This would likely help leaps and bounds with the new guilds and sub guilds   Shows all of the branching trees too!  And you can build up what sort of guild/sub you would like by selecting your desired skills and it will show you which guilds and subs mixtures match it

https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/

[Usiku]

When we have only text to communicate (and we're outside of the game where we so colourfully emote in order to express the intent and emotion behind out words) it honestly helps to always assume the best. When we read something written by someone else, and more so in difficult/awkward situations, it's very easy to project our expectations of their tone onto their words and often this ends up being the more negative of potential 'tones' and often it ends up being very wrong, but the damage is already done. I can't begin to imagine how many player/staff, staff/staff and player/player communications have absolutely gone to shit over folks simply assuming the worst from each other when they lack facial expression and tone of voice.

If I read something and my initial impression is that they are being rude/snarky.. I like to read it again but try hard to read it with a nice tone, or an imploring tone, or disappointed tone or a respectful and kind tone and see if it still works with the words. If it does, then I assume that was the tone it was written in, rather than the ruder option. It's really.. helpful.

Obviously sometimes people are just super duper rude and it's really blatant. Then it doesn't apply. 

[CirclelessBard]

When we have only text to communicate (and we're outside of the game where we so colourfully emote in order to express the intent and emotion behind out words) it honestly helps to always assume the best. When we read something written by someone else, and more so in difficult/awkward situations, it's very easy to project our expectations of their tone onto their words and often this ends up being the more negative of potential 'tones' and often it ends up being very wrong, but the damage is already done. I can't begin to imagine how many player/staff, staff/staff and player/player communications have absolutely gone to shit over folks simply assuming the worst from each other when they lack facial expression and tone of voice.

If I read something and my initial impression is that they are being rude/snarky.. I like to read it again but try hard to read it with a nice tone, or an imploring tone, or disappointed tone or a respectful and kind tone and see if it still works with the words. If it does, then I assume that was the tone it was written in, rather than the ruder option. It's really.. helpful.

Obviously sometimes people are just super duper rude and it's really blatant. Then it doesn't apply. 

Agreed! This is great advice. Not just for the vast majority of interactions between staff and players but with conversations over text in a more general sense, like in a professional setting. I do think that the more blatant examples of rudeness make up a minority of exchanges. The tricky part with all of this is that: it takes consistent polite and tactful conversation to maintain a good relationship, but only one rude comment to break it down entirely. That makes it all the more important for everyone to be unfailingly tactful, and to apologize and look for ways to fix communications in the rare instances where that doesn't happen.

[ShaiHulud]

I feel bad that players of old, like me ,have turned away for reasons, that are many or myriad. I've seen the game change. I've seen a vast number of Staff come and go. Maybe I just don't get affected. Because, I don't. I like and dislike, I love and hate, but I'm still here. I don't know why, but I am. Been in and out myself, but not because of staff, but my own life. I'm glad to be in now. I hope to interact with any and all who are still passionate about this world we have all helped build. Some need or expect more. That's fine. I'm content with it all.

[Master Color]

Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.

I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.

[CirclelessBard]

Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.

I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.

I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.

[Furious George]

I gave up after that post too Bard.  As someone who is also exhausted by tone, this turned into being about as productive for me as getting a leader report reply with a bright red keep it up!

I'll pass.  Condescending tones, threats, lies (white and egregious), etc. in discord and in request replies.   It's not worth it on my end. 

[Master Color]

Anyone have a recap of presented issues to provide, here? I've kept up with the thread, but I'm going to go ahead and throw out posts by three posters that circumvented GDB bans that have been in place for longer than I've been on the staffing team. Along with their alts to try and fluff their own hot air for validity sake. People, who, have not played the game in years and have fully stated they never intend to play the game again, either. When the sole purpose of your existence here is to try and paint the game that pissed you off 5, 10, 15 years ago as shit, the staff as shit, the players as shit and do your honest best to shit on the fun others are having - Move on. Touch grass.

I decided to back edit an extremely rude response here. I'm not actually sure if I'm one of these "three posters" or not. I would just like to point out that I can't really stomach playing the game anymore. There are a lot of reasons, but getting bullied out of one of the few roles I enjoyed in a long time is the last and biggest.

I think closure is worth more to most people than what is implied by Shabago's quoted post, especially when people are deeply invested in something. Armageddon may be just a game, but it is a game that commands a deeper investment from people than most games of its kind. It stands to reason that people would be reluctant to play a game that pained them, even if the incident happened long ago. The staff team may have been different back then, and the individual staff members most responsible for pain inflicted on players may be long gone and unable to apologize for their actions. But I think what matters to people considering returning to the game is that the current staff aren't repeating the mistakes of old staff members. I think this also matters for people not considering returning to the game but who care about the well-being of the game and its players. The wide range in tone of responses from staff both here and on Discord makes it hard to tell how staff feel about the gap in quality of communication.

Just to be clear. This was as recently as two years ago and with current staff.

[Patuk]

I'm not on staff, but the two of you have my sympathy. In a community where help, support, and care can be tough to come by, you'll have mine. I don't want anyone to feel beaten down and disgusted like that at all.