Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Abaya]

If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?

Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...

I don't really understand what's keeping you from avoiding people or situation where you feel like you'll be told secrets about the game? Is it other players? the GDB? Discord? There are a lot of players who play the game without ever interacting with anything else but the game itself.

Being told about something exciting that's going on in the game by other players or the GDB is pretty much the only thing that makes me want to play again once in a while. Telling most of us who have already left to play the game to see what's going on isn't really going to work because we are at the 'nothing ever happens, so what's the point...' way of thinking. There's no excitement being shared with us other than from other players to pull us back in. Does that make sense?

People that talk about the game OOCly are corrosive to those of us who enjoy plots, it doesn't matter if we aren't the ones being told stuff, that's completely missing the point - people don't want to play around people that abuse OOC knowledge to benefit their friends. We're wondering why more people are choosing to roleplay outside the cities and in Luir's, while at the same time it's obvious that city RP attracts those people the most, they are their own worst enemy and it would be better if there was more support from the veteran players for the rules and set a good example to make a better game for everyone? People aren't going to put the effort into constructing intricate plots and spending a lot of time doing stuff if people are allowed to advertise their characters on the forums and some people will inevitably send messages they should not, it's not fun. It's not about ruining fun, it's about protecting it, protecting the many from the few. I think the situation is that we should support the staff being more firm on stuff like this, because someone has to have the spine to stand up for people.

[BadSkeelz]

If you think tribals or independents are less prone to OOC discussion about the game, you're amusingly naïve. The biggest driver of whether people talk OOC is how many friends they've made among the player base, which is usually correlating with how long they've been playing the game. Only the newest or most anti-social of players don't talk with each other, simply because they have no one to talk to.

[BadSkeelz]

I think what your sentiment is really getting at, Abaya, is a problem that does decrease player engagement: a lack of trust. Players do not trust each other, players do not trust staff, staff do not trust players. There are too many unknowns in intentions and interactions for trust to exist. People assume the worst and act to mitigate it in zero-sum fashion: playing incredibly safe or incredibly murderously. Often they are one and the same. This drives a vicious cycle where a PC is murderous to protect their "turf," which makes the safe move to abandon that turf, thereby dispersing the playerbase further and driving down interaction for anyone else left in the area.

I've been thinking these last few days whether the IC/OOC barrier that Armageddon has long prided itself on is not in fact a hindrance. As far as I'm aware it's virtually unique among RPIs, many of whom seem to manage fine without it. It makes it incredibly difficult to hold bad behavior (by players or staff) accountable as everything is swept under the rug and left only to backroom rumors, shared via private messages among friendly audiences. I am not convinced that knowing who is playing on the other side of a character means a plot is doomed to failure; rather I would be more excited to engage with players that I know and trust to be committed to shared storytelling (even if it is adversarial) than I am a stranger, even more someone who I know to be inconsiderate of others' time and focused merely on acting out their power fantasy.

[Abaya]

That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.

But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.

There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.

[Abaya]

There's more good people than bad people. It's easy for people to start feeling nihilistic about stuff like this, but it's a fact, or we wouldn't have any kind of society in the world at all. Most people just want to do the right thing, and feel good about that. It's how we've evolved.

We've seen some posts from veteran players who are openly saying they don't believe in the rules, and they don't follow them. And it shows that they think that they've stopped believing in the rules for themselves and that they don't think it's doing the right thing. And it shows that even though staff have been getting better with this lately, there's more work to be done in making sure everyone is treated fairly when they aren't following the rules.

[Yam]

That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.

But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.

There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.

staff mostly comes from this population. when I was staff I did not see anyone join who I would not consider in this group of players. almost every long term armageddon player will go through phases where they are this kind of player and have a well-developed OOC clique. that's not necessarily a bad thing and it is not avoidable in a game with a small tight-knit community. staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.

[Riev]

Trust is a very important factor. I used to trust other players and like... if we were fighting in the wilderness I would emote backing off and disengage so we could RP out the scene a bit more.

Then I had a number of characters get no-RP backstabbed, or chased across the city with no repercussions, or had weapons pulled on me in broad daylight with soldiers watching and told "Thats just how it is".

Because those players either knew nobody was going to stop them, or were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc. Without trust, the RP turns into burst damage and one-shots and less roleplay around what is happening. After all, "they were in a place I didnt want them to be and I knew I could codedly kill them" is a legitimate reason in 2022.

[coconut]

staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.

We have met the enemy and they are us.

[Dar]

were staff alts that had virtually paid off the city soldiers, etc etc.

Are you for real?

[Reiloth]

That's one of the biggest problems, and is how corrupt people typically think, "Everyone else is doing, it so why shouldn't I?" This isn't an Armageddon problem, it's something everything like it has. It's exactly the reason why DMs on the internet can't be private anymore, because there had to be some way of catching people who act this way, for much more serious stuff.

But the thing is, no, it's not everyone.

There's people who have left the game because of the small minority of very entitled veteran players thinking the rules don't apply to them and abusively manipulating IC events as if the goal is to "win" because of that behavior of just being naturally prone to abusing others for the sake of their friends, that some people are, and this won't change. This will always have to be called out, caught, and I am really glad that staff are doing more to remove these people from positions of trust and stopping them getting into roles they shouldn't be in.

staff mostly comes from this population. when I was staff I did not see anyone join who I would not consider in this group of players. almost every long term armageddon player will go through phases where they are this kind of player and have a well-developed OOC clique. that's not necessarily a bad thing and it is not avoidable in a game with a small tight-knit community. staff do not go through some sort of purification process when they ascend. they're just players too.

This rings very true, as we were both on Staff together, and we (along with Calavera/Italis/Other Staff at the time) were very much 'of a crew'. We played PCs in Expansion Division, and I think that brought us together as Players as well as PCs even after they bit the dust. And lo and behold, we ended up on Staff together, and very much had sympatico together.

I don't think cliques in themselves are a bad thing. A D&D group that plays together can be considered a clique. I think when cliques become exclusionary or preferential they become a very bad thing, particularly for a game like ArmageddonMUD. I think cliques among Staff can be sometimes worse than cliques among players, because group-think can very much ruin aspects of the game.

As Yam points out, there is no purification process that goes into becoming a member of Staff. You sign a contract that basically signs over your creative additions to the game to 'Staff and the Game as a whole', relinquishing personal ownership of it. You agree to not break the rules of the game, to divulge IC information, or use information gleaned while on Staff for the benefit of yourself or of your PCs.

That all sounds nice on paper, but I can say no Staff member (myself as a former member) is perfect or above reproach. I'm well aware of PCs that were played by Staff, and somehow evaded intense scrutiny that was given to similar PCs who were not played by Staff, and were given pretty unlimited latitudes and power in their roles. This isn't rumor or hearsay, it's 100% known and verified. Staff have even admitted as much in the past.

The hope is as we move forward and away from that time, that isn't the case any longer. That Staff are to be trusted in these roles. That they can divorce themselves from their persona as a player, and inhabit the role of a Staff member, and not let power get to their head, or not become divorced so far from the game itself, that they can both keep a finger on the pulse of the game, and not overly influence it with their own coloration or points of view.

It's a lot to ask of an incredibly talented game developer, who is (typically) well compensated, who has an employee handbook to refer to, who has an HR department if they have inter-company drama or conflicts.

It's an INCREDIBLE ask of volunteer Staff. Speaking personally, i'm not a game designer. I have no experience coding or working as a game designer in that respect. I have some years under my belt as an entirely amateur DM of some tabletop games, but I am in no way qualified to design and run a video game. I would say a majority of the problem lays in that a large portion of people who have Staffed ArmageddonMUD and will Staff ArmageddonMUD are not professionals, they are amateurs. They are very passionate, they have excellent skills at playing the game and RPing, but they do not have the soft or hard skills to run it as members of Staff.

Couple this with incredibly high self-imposed and externally imposed expectations from the community to perform AS professional, and it is often a recipe for trouble.

Most Staff (including myself here as a former Staff member) do not have the soft skills to deal with very passionate members of the community who may be in the right, or may be in the wrong, on matters brought up in the request tool. They do not have the skills (be they emotional or mental) to separate themselves enough to give forthright, truthful, and emotionally dispassionate responses 100% of the time. They do not have the skills (try as they might) to be the DMV when Players wish them to, and then also be incredibly passionate when they are pouring their creative energy into the game.

I wish I could say there is an excellent handbook and way of onboarding Staff. Unfortunately, there isn't.

As i've learned in running my own business, Discretion is the death of a reliable system. Said another way, when you are relying on the discretion of an employee or business owner, rather than the reliability of a tried and true system that has been codified and can be referenced, you will have inconsistent results, every time. One person, when engaging with the business, will have an excellent time and can't stop raving about it. Another person will have a terrible time, and will stop at nothing to trash talk the business. Having a reliable system helps mitigate this, and by design, try to ensure that every person engaging with the business has the same experience.

It's a LOT to ask of a trained, compensated professional, and even more to ask of an Amateur, one who's only reward is their love of the game and wishing to see it thrive and survive.

This isn't meant as a disclaimer to parade and champion Staff. I've had my share of run ins with Staff, in both the recent past, and the long and storied past. I even had my share of run ins while I was on Staff.

The point of this post is for Staff and Players alike.

We're playing a damn game. We need to stop with the character assassinations, with thinking the worst of each other, or punishing one another either verbally or via OOC consequences.

The point of the game is to have fun. That doesn't mean your PC will always have a great go of it. Things often don't go your way as a PC, and sometimes that can be fun too. It's when we have OOC bleed, when we perceive that Staff is antagonizing us either on purpose or through attrition and inattention. When we feel that other PCs are getting preferential treatment, and begin to draw OOC conclusions that they are a Staff Avatar, or simply more 'favorite' to Staff than you are. When things seem to go well for PC peers, run by the same Staff member, and your PC doing similar things is overlooked. That's when things start to get tricky, and lead down a rabbit hole.

If a Player is making your time as a Staff member not fun, address it, have another Staff member come in and take a look and offer perspective. If a Staff member is making your time out of the game not fun, ask for another Staff member to come in and take a look and offer perspective. We should also strive to take things at face value, and stop circulating rumors of 'he/she/they said' about one another. This goes for Staff and Players alike. I was shocked to find out that I was accused of doing things while I was on Staff, that I absolutely did not do, and other Staff take in stride and now think I have done.

On a parting note, I'd heartily encourage people to not have 'private lives' on Discord or other ways of OOC communication, mostly as a personal anecdote. I've enjoyed this game/hobby the most when I play it exclusively, when I don't engage with OOC cliques, and when I don't discuss my current character with other players. Take it with a grain of salt, I think it's how the game is meant to be most enjoyed, and what helps keep IC events in the game, helps people not take things too personally, helps people (myself most of all) not take the game too seriously.

I'm still not playing. I don't intend to, but I also don't intend not to. I'm sort of watching the game from afar and seeing how it's doing without me. Maybe that's creepy. I do think of the game fondly, particularly when I have distance from it and a leadership PC that I poured myself into with little OOC return or reward, mostly stemming from problems I facilitated as a player. I've been having fun playing Xbox Game Pass and not feeling guilty, not feeling mentally drained, and not feeling physically angry. However, I do want the game to do well. I want people playing it to be having a blast, and I want Staff who are running it to be smiling and happy they're volunteering their time in running it.

Anyways, I applaud Shabago for making this thread in the first place, and the playerbase for engaging with it with a mostly level head. Bummer that Delirium got briefly banned, but that's par for the course here with the game and how Staff can get things wrong. Halaster's apology makes him human, and it's a good reminder that we should strive to give each other the benefit of the doubt, as often as possible.

[Reiloth]

As a follow up summation, things I think can help:

-Codify a system for Staff, both onboarding them and in how to deal with players.

-Codify a system for players, in how to deal with Staff, and how to get the best results with Staff.

-Codify a system for leadership roles, so expectations are made very clear from the onset, and what results can be expected if somone sticks with the role for 6 months, or a year. Make the end result of someone playing a hard-and-fast leadership PC that survives (meaning a PC that takes risks and moves plots and makes stories) becoming an NPC or a part of the organization's history/documentation.

-Assume the best of one another as players and Staff members. You want people actively saying nice things about you behind your back. Act and carry yourselves in a way that supports this concept.

-Continue to have your PCs murder, corrupt, and betray one another. Keep it in the game. It's all in the game.

[Jihelu]

If a Player is making your time as a Staff member not fun, address it, have another Staff member come in and take a look and offer perspective. If a Staff member is making your time out of the game not fun, ask for another Staff member to come in and take a look and offer perspective. We should also strive to take things at face value, and stop circulating rumors of 'he/she/they said' about one another. This goes for Staff and Players alike. I was shocked to find out that I was accused of doing things while I was on Staff, that I absolutely did not do, and other Staff take in stride and now think I have done.

This seems to me easier said than done. As we can see with Delirium's pos- oh wait we can't, they persist they tried to let bygones be bygones and came back to a hostile system where 'bringing other people in' or bringing it up resulted in the hostile behavior being justified or allowed.

Staff frequently says they can't or won't bring in other staffers to deal with someone if they have repeated issues with a specific staffer, so that's out of the question outside of putting in a request.

Right now I see situations where a player insists something has happened, maybe provides logs, and staff goes 'You don't know the truth of what was going on' but if a staff member ascertains something has happened, it's the whole truth and nothing but. There's this fostered belief any conflict with a staffer is some one time never before seen never will happen again 'PLAY THE GAME BE HAPPY DON'T LOOK AT IT' situation and if it does happen again it didn't happen how you think it did or not at all, and if you have proof it was an isolated instance, and if it wasn't well uh those are bad players.
The only time I see people even entertain the idea that a staffer was shit or the system was shit was when they go 'hehe I mean uh years ago it was really bad!' but if you entertain that in any current mindset or frame it goes right back to this 'well those are just liars'.

Maristan's post on reddit comes to mind. Either he's just a smelly stinky liar poo poo head or there is a history of there being an issue that is still an issue.

You can see it in this very thread. Someone gets banned for providing feedback because they are a stinky poo poo head liar, we now can't see the post, and a page or two later you've got people coming out of the floorboards going 'Stop being so negattiiiiive just play the gameeee'. And I guess playing the game is fine if you're having situations like Delirium and can't without people being shit to you.

Yes there are some actual crazy people who play/have played this game who go full crackhead the minute something happens to them (God I miss Grumble) but to implicate any review ever on reddit about Armageddon and them having a bad time is the work of some evil deeply repressed trolls (Which I see happen sometimes), is just insanity.

[Wday]

reply to the remark of Lets play the gameee..  Yes lets play!  Over the last 20 years give or take two. I have put a LOT of time playing here.  Fleshed out so much that the game world is alive for my characters down to some small bushes. Over this time I can and will say to have caught the blunt end of the stick! Had my own tribe burn me down for crap another in the tribe was basically doing. Had Staff swap out meanings of Docs and stories in mid play. Even if went somewhere 123541436564 Great white fur demon toks with motorcycles loaded up and chased me off.  I know my role play is fairly easy to spot and my ways of typing is easy to catch.  With that I have watched players not staff but PLAYERS go out of their way to just cause trouble or shut down a idea of plot just because. After a few breaks here and there I come to a peace of mind here.  This is a FREE game and so as staff who are people get tired, get faves and so on. We all should or do put a lot of passion in playing Arma and some of us are unable to live and do in the real world as we do in game (walk jump ride not medical stuck) So this here is our outlet.  Or mine for sure!  Point of this long rant is lets try and calm down and meet in game and drive stories and plots worth playing! There is rules and karma but truly we are seeking role play here. Maybe less efforts on building bananas and revamping multi items that are the same and focus on world driven, people doing plots!  As for folks banned and such I say unless they was hacking or whatnot then reach out and find a middle ground with staff and them.  Staff remember we are all players and no need for god-like moods.  Players remember we are doing things and maybe they aren't seen as we see it.  But it doesn't cost a dime to just take a breath write up a character and go after fun.

ps Discord and all the ooc ways to chat is screwing us.  Back in the day we had in game meetings and GDB and I think the mood of game was more fresh and excited.

[Jihelu]

If your solution to 'Hey guys, why aren't you playing the game?' and someone goes 'Oh well, I don't particularly like staff and have had bad experiences with them'
is
"JUST PLAY THE GAMMMEEEE"

Then congratulations nothing has changed at all. We had added a whole zero to the amount of accountability, everyone who is being asked right now about why they aren't playing isn't going to come back, and in a year when we remake this thread and there's even less players you can post 'LETS PLAY THE GAMEEEEE' to even less people.

Literally what is your point? Do nothing because....the people complaining, who are being asked to complain by the way, are wrong?

Yes the game is free.

There is no obligation to play the game.
Great fantastic.

Staff is literally asking why people aren't playing the game. If it was as simple as 'write up a character go have fun' people would be DOING THAT AND NOT MAKING A POST HERE.

And if your 'point' is 'oh just completely change how you view the game and ignore all your own complaints (They don't matter or aren't real!) and just play anyway' plainly: Screw off

[Wday]

Jihelu you read as if upset.  Yes I will go screw off because.. Well I am not going to get bent out of shape to point I am posting mean words at someone else who plays the same game I am. You are pointing at staff but in a real world topic here you are reading pretty shitty towards me.  Want to know what brings people out to play?  Stop being an ass and they will come back.  Maybe your type mood is the problem in players and staff? Go fix yourself.

[Jihelu]

Jihelu you read as if upset.  Yes I will go screw off because.. Well I am not going to get bent out of shape to point I am posting mean words at someone else who plays the same game I am. You are pointing at staff but in a real world topic here you are reading pretty shitty towards me.  Want to know what brings people out to play?  Stop being an ass and they will come back.  Maybe your type mood is the problem in players and staff? Go fix yourself.

Yes, all of the people posting in this thread today are disillusioned with the game because I write mean words on the GDB.
Grow up. If you want to be treated politely take people's feedback and treat it seriously. Your entire argument is taking several people who are coming forward, for no guarantee of getting their situations fixed or any sort of resolution, and telling them they are wrong and to just not care about it. You know what brings people out to play? This thread. Talking to them about their problems. Working to fix the problems.

Bringing people out, then telling them they are wrong isn't fixing their problems it's a bait and switch. My mood might hurt your very sensitive feelings but I actually give a fuck about the issues people are bringing up in this thread and are taking them seriously. If your playing the game, great. Go make your own 'I love the game so fucking much and I have no issues with it' thread and leave the people here to actually reply to it.

[Wday]

Well you don't even know me and yet only thing you could say was something rude.  This isn't ICLY this is GDB and you was openly rude not knowing me. You maybe very well the problem in Arma.  No patience and iching to fuss. Now I am gonna go screw off and you be proud of yourself.

[Shabago]

Where to even start on this thread, since my last post, right? I suppose on the still present uproar that's going on.

I suppose I'm something of an odd man out in most situations from two of the prevailing fronts that are proposed here. There is what detractors or naysays will label the 'Pro-staff front' and then we have the 'Disgruntled front'. I think this is reflective of society today, compared to where, when and how the game first started or even its first fifteen or twenty years. Now-a-days, there is often no middle ground, no compromise and no olive branches unless one side admits utter defeat and comes, hat in hand with apology and/or begging.

I don't like either. Maybe this'll help us come together, maybe this'll have both sides hate my guts? I don't know, but it's worth the shot.

Using the two fronts for sake of brevity labels;

Pro-staff front:

It's pretty easy to get blinded by an echo chamber, cheers, accolades, and so on. A person's default stance is to assume they're right in conduct or action. That is just human nature. Thus, when this side does either A) Support a staff member in an action taken in post/deed or b) attacks another player for 'doing things wrong', it is actually counter productive to our own desired goals. Those goals, as stated when I first took the producer role, have not changed. The community should be welcoming and inclusive. The game should be fun. Those actively trying to *falsely* attack it should find better uses of their time. (I'll speak to falsely in more detail below).

So, what my ask of this particular group is; please reign in the vitriol attacks on anyone you may disagree with. If they had a bad experience, then they had a bad experience. If they attempt to address it with me, I'll do what I can to make it right. If they choose to take it elsewhere, that is there choice. There is a fine line between stating countering argument or holding debate with facts or reason, and painting people as evil, worthy of scorn and or hatred. See to it you remain on the appropriate side of that line. By doing anything else, we're only harming ourselves by adding fuel to the fire of their disgruntlement and, of course, verifying their claims against our community.

Disgruntled front:

I've an ask of you, too. It carries with it three options that I'll get to, but first I have to wonder what the point of it is? This isn't a rhetorical question. If you're being abusive towards fellow players and staff because you 'Actually really care about the game and want it to improve', do you really think that will help? If you want to see the game burn and shut down because you're mad at some staffer or player, then why are you out to punish the other players who are having fun? Why is your 'hate' more important then their enjoyment and why is your view greater than theirs? I don't understand the mindset. So, three options. A) Please reach out to me directly via request if you want to at least *try* to have the matter addressed. Throw my name right into the title and we'll get to talking. B) Adjust the tone of the argument to not be vicious and attacking and instead be constructive. You'll find a far more receptive audience, or C) Take your ball and leave.

I'm aware the last will no doubt rub a good few people the wrong way, but I'll stand by it. If you are -solely- here to stir the pot, attack players and staff and or attempt to burn the game down with as much spewed hatred as you can, you'll be more at home on Reddit or the shadow boards than here. The majority of this community actually wants to log in, play, have fun or read these boards without groaning and going "What now?". The majority wish things to get better and move forward. Please join us in that, with option A and/or B - Or leave.

On the dirty laundry front:

No. We're not going to do that. I understand how a good number of places operate and that drama is a popular popcorn eating time for some, but we're not about to public drag players on decisions we've made. We may well provide evidence to the contrary where /possible/, but that will not include priviledged exchanges from staff to player. You each have a right to your privacy. This is even in how complaints are handled on the request tool against other players. We do not discuss who they are with you by account, and we don't go into long-winded details of action taken. Does this leave us in a poor spot to be hammered at? Yes. So be it. I'm largely of mind that matters speak to themselves, when someone repeatedly goes on the offensive, with various ranging, negative tone attacks. It's about akin to someone screaming at the cashier for taking too long to ring them out at Wal-mart. The cashier doesn't start throwing hooks, but the people behind the screamer in line can get a pretty good idea of who's who and what's what.

On behalf of and to the staff team:

I've said it before in posts and I'll say it again here: If you have suffered an actual insult, unfair treatment or falsely persecuted for whatever reason in the game, the GDB or in the request tool, you have my direct and personal apology, and we are and continue to strive for better. To the team at large, if an action is taken that elicits an immediate feeling of anger or hurt feelings? Bow out for a few hours or pass the matter off to another on the team. We will do nothing good by lashing out ourselves and paints us as hypocrites when we ask for the better treatment from the community. We're all human and not a single one of us (myself included) have not let emotion get the best of us in the moment, but we owe it to the game being more fun for everyone, and the community to put these sorts of issues to bed.

On the assorted issues as to the initial ask from this thread:

- One main issue brought up was to do with karma gating and timers. As you all have seen, we've started a pilot project on doing away with some of that, and have even added choices.

- On the grind. We have taken steps to alleviate this for areas of the game that more rapid training would make sense. Beyond that, we continue talks on what other tweaks we can make that will both serve as respect to player time involvement and to do away with what some of you state as risk-aversion play due to not wanting to 'grind up again'.

- On stagnation. We have two world spanning plots happening right now in game, that are not hard to get a sniff of. We have three more that are 'zone specific' - Tuluk, Luirs and Allanak that are either in progress or about to unfold. We have player-supported ones on-going and purpose of interaction events, like auctions and festivals to further connect people. Yet two more big posts will be forth coming to add atop all of this, but I would also, again, highly encourage our beautiful creative minds out there (you all playing) to reach out to your STs, or zone admins if you have ideas of your own that you want to see get extra legs behind it. We won't bite.

Be kind to one another, folks. Those of us all wanting the game to be better can yet meet in the middle and accomplish that.

If there are more specific asks to be had here, have at it. I don't intend to lock the thread. Some questions just may not have a ready answer, or be something we can't fully answer, but I (we) will do our best.

[Jihelu]

Shabago's diplomatic words made me thinking emoji a bit and consider making a character, which brought up more questions about character creation, which brought up more of the things I think of when I don't play the game.

These, more than previously, are more subject to taste. They could exist side by side but I assume someone is going to hate the mere thought and shake in agony that I even suggested it.

Especially as I move away from DnD, I've grown less of a fan of random stat allotment. I feel like I've had it kill more character concepts, either in actual viability (Though some could contest that) or with killing my perceived viability (Which I believe is a larger factor for people.) Random stats can exist alongside a pointbuy based system but I'll either be pleasantly surprised to see more people enjoying this kind of thing or I'll see what I perceive as the usual backlash against it. Not even backlash as in I'm getting death threats, but as in people just don't want it/like it.

You already can, more or less barring some really BAD rolls, use age as a measure for this. Want decent strength? Go middle age. Want to be fast as fuck? Go young. To which to the would be detractor who wants to argue: Why not just do that then instead of having point buy? To which I say: I've frequently gotten those bad rolls or silly rolls. I pull up middle age human and I've got poor strength and now my fighter feels very silly.

I just know that when I've played I've had more characters with stats I wasn't a fan of than did, and I don't think those varying highs and lows added anything to my experience. Call me a power gamer or something but I never rolled a miscreant, got a low agility roll, and went 'Man I'm going to love this hardship I put on myself'.

Other than that that's about all that came to mind for 'If I made a character right now what about the game or system makes me frownie face'.

I knew of a small minority of players who'd use a bug that would also perma boost their stats, who wouldn't complain about the stat system because they'd start their characters and just perma-increase them with a now patched bug. What a wild time.

[pilgrim]

Jihelu, I really identify with a lot of what you're saying and I think the gist of it is 100% accurate. But also I think "my mood might hurt your very sensitive feelings" is a pretty counterproductive thing to say.... especially given what I perceive to be the problem. People in Armageddon are all too tied up in the idea of "our game is hardcore your feelings don't matter" and so on. And you're acting mean to someone who just stated that they play the game to escape a reality of being "medically stuck", and then saying their feelings don't matter. Right now we're not roleplaying characters, we're real people talking to other real people, and that's important to remember.

One of the big reasons I quit Armageddon is that this attitude of being uncaring towards the feelings of other players -- IC antagonism mixed with an OOC sense of an antagonistic atmosphere -- was getting to me, and I found myself playing the game in a way that I don't want to play. I found myself getting harder towards other people, feeling a lot of scorn and annoyance about them, and being perfectly okay with screwing them over and not caring in the littlest way for whatever their feelings might be. This would've been fine if it was all IC, but I was perfectly willing to take advantage of whatever coded advantage I could glean in order to get the upper hand. When the coded advantages don't always make roleplay sense, but I don't care because I want the upper hand and other people will otherwise get the upper hand on me, then that's not the game I want to play. That's not a roleplaying game. That's some kind of weird shallow veil over actual PvP where players are actively trying to damage the feelings of other players... and it made me start acting ugly. I recognized the pit I was falling into from pits I've fallen into in the past, and so that was a big part of my withdrawing. I don't want to be callous towards fellow players; I'd like us all to be happy and play with integrity.

So yes, an OOCly antagonistic atmosphere is a big problem.

I'd blame this, again, on staff more than on players -- it is the responsibility of staff to cultivate the atmosphere they want, and any problems with atmosphere lie on them because they are the example, and they possess the power in the cultural dynamic. One thing that might help is to remove anonymity from staff correspondence in the game. That way people can more easily identify a pattern of hostile behavior. And require staff to make account notes when they interact with a character or animate anything for the character.

[Malken]

Good stuff, Shabago. Thank you for taking the time to read through this madness.

I'm genuily glad you're at the helm of the game (I think you are?). Keep up the good stuff, that should bring people back.

Hopefully this will spread and the few that comes back will attract more back as well.

PS: As for the two world spanning plots happening right now in game, any chance that us non-playing folks get some sneak preview in the form of text to tease us a little? If it's nothing uber secret, of course.

[Armaddict]

I do think maybe character creation could be the next big project for staff.  There's been various ideas over decades for how to go about it without breaking it, combined with modifications to enhance it, including point by systems and classless systems and traits and feats and whatever.  It's a big project, but I feel like having options to use pregens (classes) or point buys might be a worthy devotion of time.

I don't think it would bring me back into full activity, but it IS one of those consistent...almost-gripes of the playerbase.  And it might be really revitalizing.  I can say the new classes really bugged me out, personally, but I know a lot of people liked them, so having more flexibility at that stage might really mix up the bag.

[dumbstruck]

People need to be accountable for that they do, on all sides. No one should be hiding behind a veneer of anonymity. If it were up to me it would always be pretty plain exactly who I was playing, but I realize not everyone feels that way, and plots should absolutely be kept private, but what staff is logged in, who is making what judgement calls about who and what, the notes on that staff are putting on people's accounts, which staff are putting these notes? This should all be things that people are accountable for.

Same thing if a player has a tendency to make harcore pvp or very grief heavy characters over and over again. I get that the world is supposed to be harsh but there is a difference between a harsh world and a single player over and over playing maxed out miscreant elves making half the apartments in Allanak pointless because no lock matters. You could argue that one person's enjoyment of the game is only worth so much if it makes six, ten, twelve other people not want to log in as a result of them doing whatever the code will let them do. (Staff can attest I haven't rented an apartment in Allanak in quite a long time this is just an example)

If your interactions are positive, you are not going to care later, and if they are negative, it is just possible, the person thinking about doing it might consider more study or observation before noting such where it will be on record forever, knowing that it will be visible and something that they will be visibly on record as saying should the player care to ask. Anything less creates a culture of guessing, finger pointing, accusations, he said she said, tribalism, rumor mongering, and othering. So I'm going to say something that I realize is going to come across a little controversial:

I think logged in staff members should always be visible, and I think it should be visible when they're idle as well. I don't think you should necessarily be able to freely page them and send them tells. But when you get some animation that makes you feel really fucking terrible about logging in, knowing that X, Y and Z were the only staff on and Z was idle... would really narrow down who was possibly the one doing it.

If A, B, or C admin are never logged in, it will be more apparent how inactive they are outside the request tool, not just to other staff, but to EVERYONE. I also don't feel like secret notes that players don't get to see on their requests or account notes are actually good. In my experience they are rarely positive. They are often negative, and they stick around forever. And the player has no chance of actually seeing them, ever, to address them or defend themselves.

I realize that is a big culture shift proposed. And I realize there is very little chance of it happening. But it's something I feel like would be a beneficial change.

[Is Friday]

Shabago:

Appreciate your post.

Reiloth:
I think staff will likely continue to struggle because of the structure of the reward system. I'm glad in hindsight that I was not accepted for staff despite several applications. I really wanted to be on staff for years bc I love storytelling. However, the dozen or so STs from Arm staff who I spoke with about it recommended that I not apply. Why?

I would posit that there's no good reason to remain on staff because there is no reward system that doesn't take advantage of their position of power. The only things built into the structure are  privileges. (Old boons of being staff: Max karma, secrets, special roles, leniency on rule, etc. Some of which have been removed from that structure after egregious abuses.)  The immense time commitment to reward for staff just Does Not Math.

I run 12-15 tabletop games a week as a professional as well as game design and write. Many former staff likewise have gone onto immensely competitive creative fields because that's who they are - and they're being compensated fairly.

This isn't necessarily just a "monetize Arm" post, but... I mean - is it any wonder that we have so many issues when the people actively encouraged to stick around are those who find ways to exploit their position? It's one of the few boons of actually doing all the work.

Some might say: They should do it for the love of the game. Well I say that's just not enough. Shabago or whomever dealing with problem players for 10 hours a week is awful. Not when they don't get to choose who's at their table (just like players can't pick their STs here.)

And I'm here to tell you: People pay me $45 a game for D&D. That's not a joke. It is my full time income to play D&D with people. I took my writing and acting elsewhere to communities who accepted me, didn't mistreat me, and who embraced the stories I wanted to tell. 1 year after quitting this game and simply diverting my effort as a frequent player to other endeavors: I have been rewarded with an entire community of my own and a full-time income.

Arm MUD needs to restructure how it imagines moving forward in regards to how it respects the time and effort of staff.

[wizturbo]

I haven't played the game in a while now.  I lurk on the forums periodically, and watch from afar.  Not because I harbor any grudges or I'm angry about something, I'm just busy and Armageddon is a time consuming game to play it the way I like to play it.

Since going on break, I've seen nothing but a string of positive developments in-game and a set of staff that are really trying to extend olive branches with the community, more than I've ever seen before. I know some of you are angry...  honestly, you can't play this game for as many years as some of us have and not have a few emotional scars from the experience.  It's the nature of the game to invoke powerful emotions, that's why we love it. But please, try not to let that anger extinguish these truly positive efforts, or worse, attempt to extinguish this very special game that's been such an important part of our lives.