Feedback on playing and log-ins

[Furious George]

Delirium's answer resonated with me on many points.  Calling her out as toxic and banning her over it seems to be a pretty solid indicator of part of the retention problem.  Staff seems very comfortable making rules to hold the playerbase accountable that they in turn don't abide by themselves.  Some staffers love their platform so much they will torch and burn to protect it.  So what if you ask for feedback and don't like the answer?  You did ask.  Pretty cheap to ban her for attacks that one cannot defend, while calling her out in an attack she can't defend.  Very smooth.

This is tip of the iceberg behavior. This is your answer.  Look in the mirror staff.
Maybe your system of rules and oversight are stuck in the 90s?  Playerbase grew up and got older, staff knee jerk and attitude hasn't.

She said what is an accurate example, and only one, of staff vs player complications, then you proved the point, because her words hurt the feelings of someone in text.  Funny how intent and result in text does that?  Almost as if staff forgot that civility and empathy means something more in terms of playerbase.

This is what the shoe feels like on the other foot.

[Abaya]

If the problem was just the staff I wouldn't be posting here, and I wouldn't care if players were able to identify me - and harass me over it. Part of the problem is some of the older players tend to see the rules as something "for the little people".

As a newer player this can be an EXTREMELY unwelcoming feeling to become aware of, that some people are long term real life friends, and talking to each other on Facebook even as well as Discord. I am honestly happy that things seem to be moving forward to not turn a blind eye to this as much and people are starting to be held account. More, not less. That's GOOD, because there's been plenty of stories of people were driven away by other players engaging in that kind of behavior.

But I think it also needs to be not in just a lets-make-examples-of-people way, but as a whole in making it easier to report people to staff without people having to risk someone getting wind of it and going after them, in one way or another. That is REALLY important and the basis of most systems against abuse.

RE: RULES, sure, there's something to be said for being laid back, anything goes, talk about the arena fights with that player in Tuluk, or whatever, sure, that could be fun on one level - But by doing so you hurt the game I think a lot of us still love. Because you can only have one type of game that way, and it's one where there's no rule against talking about anything, and all plot details are public. They are always artificial seeming and don't have the same sense of awe and grandeur as when something amazing happens on Armageddon.

Some of these issues are part of the evolution of Armageddon - it's obvious from reading the forum that it used to be considered normal to put IM details on profiles which has faded into irrelevance, but Discord is just a continuation of these kind of problems where it makes it easier for other players to try and put pressure on other players (or even staff, there was that story of the one who was flirting with staff OOCly constantly, and sure, giving them better treatment is wrong, but that's one case where it's obvious that the staff were being manipulated as well and it appears they aren't active on staff anymore). This is why a lot of social networks have - in modernization - started to put safeguards on stopping people randomly trying to be friends with people - because a lot of the time it's picking a victim.

I think what we need to do is make sure that everyone gets treated equally - but while staff need to change to accommodate making it easier for people to be caught, players have a responsibility too, and a lot of us newer players feel how some of the more experienced players act is just an oppressive, awful feeling, and not wanting to be around those people.

[Barsook]

I'm wondering if having OOC venues is more damaging to the the game than anything. Yes, I do appreciate the call for the feedback but I don't having the tread open for this long was a good idea.  I'm at a point of just not knowing what's best for the game. I might just play for my own enjoyment no matter what is said or done.

[Furious George]

The question I answered was "why am I not playing" not "what do you think of the game's culture", unfortunately.  It's my opinion, that's all.

I'm not interested in airing my or anyone else's dirty laundry, but I will absolutely point out what I see as a double standard.

As for calling out veterans for being the big rule breakers, there are cliques everywhere in life, it's part of tribalism and community.  Even with staff.

My -opinion- is based on 30 years of staff-player interaction and witnessing atmosphere.  I have almost zero gdb or discord presence, but I've witnessed some of the best and the worst Armageddon has to offer.

But there is absolutely no urge to dip myself or my headspace into a -game- environment that feels like it could give two shits less for all the hours I've played, items and docs I've submitted, leaders I've tried to get thru staff rotations, festivals I've put hours into to make story for others or attempts I've made to help others figure it out.  30 years.  Only the cosmetics have changed.  They just don't ACTUALLY chase you around and pkill you with THE SODOMIZER anymore.

It just feels like it most of the time.

[Halaster]

I've slept on this, listened to other staff's opinion on it, and have come to the conclusion I was in the wrong for banning Delirium over her post.  I apologize to her for overreacting, treating her poorly in this situation, and generally acting like an asshole over it.  I will unban her after posting this.  Whether or not she sees it, I don't know, but I feel since my behavior was public, so should be the apology.

At the time, I felt like I was not taking it personally, and was only defending other staff.  But it clearly annoyed me, which means I took it personally on some level without realizing it.  While most of her stories didn't involve me directly, a few certainly did at least peripherally, and her last 'argument' with staff before quitting was with me.  So clearly I was "involved", despite me thinking at the time of the banning/deletion I wasn't, which in my mind made it OK for me to act.  I was wrong.

After talking it over with someone this morning, I also came to the understanding that what bothers me the most about things like that are the assigning of motivation to other people that are incorrect.  What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off.  I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does).  It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it.  But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.

Was deleting the post the wrong move or not?  Because in my mind leaving it there to trash staff without defending ourselves seems like it would do more harm to the community.  More than the harm of deleting it and taking the hit for the perceived hypocrisy.  I knew it was a bad idea, but at the time it seemed like the 'least bad' option, the lesser of three evils.  Those being:  1) Leave it and do our usual and not respond, which most certainly poisons other peoples' already generally low opinion of staff, 2) delete it and be the hypocrite, with the thinking it causes less harm in the long run, or 3) get in a tit-for-tat response with the player.  In hindsight it wasn't the right choice, I should have gone with 1 and just let it go.

What I don't think I can do is reinstate the post.  Because I'm an idiot for a moderator, and don't know how to save it, so I just deleted.  If she so happens to have a copy and wants to re-post while editing out the personal attacks, that's fine (if she even sees this).  I'll see if I can't figure out a way to find it.

[Krath]

Sodomizer? Can't believe that is actually real. I've had experience with Mortal slayer and being killed, which was warranted. That seems uncalled for though.

[Lotion]

Is it possible to reinstate the post and its deleted responses?

[najdorf]

I've slept on this, listened to other staff's opinion on it, and have come to the conclusion I was in the wrong for banning Delirium over her post.  I apologize to her for overreacting, treating her poorly in this situation, and generally acting like an asshole over it.  I will unban her after posting this.  Whether or not she sees it, I don't know, but I feel since my behavior was public, so should be the apology.

At the time, I felt like I was not taking it personally, and was only defending other staff.  But it clearly annoyed me, which means I took it personally on some level without realizing it.  While most of her stories didn't involve me directly, a few certainly did at least peripherally, and her last 'argument' with staff before quitting was with me.  So clearly I was "involved", despite me thinking at the time of the banning/deletion I wasn't, which in my mind made it OK for me to act.  I was wrong.

After talking it over with someone this morning, I also came to the understanding that what bothers me the most about things like that are the assigning of motivation to other people that are incorrect.  What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off.  I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does).  It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it.  But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.

Was deleting the post the wrong move or not?  Because in my mind leaving it there to trash staff without defending ourselves seems like it would do more harm to the community.  More than the harm of deleting it and taking the hit for the perceived hypocrisy.  I knew it was a bad idea, but at the time it seemed like the 'least bad' option, the lesser of three evils.  Those being:  1) Leave it and do our usual and not respond, which most certainly poisons other peoples' already generally low opinion of staff, 2) delete it and be the hypocrite, with the thinking it causes less harm in the long run, or 3) get in a tit-for-tat response with the player.  In hindsight it wasn't the right choice, I should have gone with 1 and just let it go.

What I don't think I can do is reinstate the post.  Because I'm an idiot for a moderator, and don't know how to save it, so I just deleted.  If she so happens to have a copy and wants to re-post while editing out the personal attacks, that's fine (if she even sees this).  I'll see if I can't figure out a way to find it.

This means a lot. You have my respect and gratitude, and I'm hopeful for the future of the game as long as staff is tolerant.

[Malken]

This means a lot. You have my respect and gratitude, and I'm hopeful for the future of the game as long as staff is tolerant.

I agree. As someone who certainly does not hate the game, It makes me happy when staff admits they were wrong. We've certainly not seen enough of this in the past.

[CirclelessBard]

What I mean is, there was a lot of interpretation in the post about what staff's motivation was over certain events that were simply way off.  I get that it was -her- interpretation of it, but I get personally frustrated when that happens, even if it doesn't involve me (and obviously more so when it does).  It was a heavily one-sided view on things, and staff have a very different view on much of it.  But it was -her- view, whether I liked it or not, or whether I agreed with it or not.

I appreciate the ban reversal.

Regarding this part of your post, I think the main reason why this happens is because of the power imbalance in player-staff communication. Players can submit requests and staff can respond, but ultimately, staff decide when a given conversation ends. Individual staff members can unilaterally make a decision on (for example) whether a player should be banned, and players are never informed of the justification of the banning. There is accountability among the staff team to an extent, but there are no avenues where players can hold staff accountable for stuff, aside from leaving the game. Something many people have done, clearly, otherwise a thread like this would not be necessary in the first place, and several of the posts state as much.

Circling back to a previous comment I made, part of the reason why I suggested staff participation in the wider MUD community is because at the end of the day, people really just want to talk. They don't want to troll or get into arguments for arguing's sake, generally. They just want to hear what happened.

You mentioned you had three options for handling Delirium's post: ignore it, delete it, or go tit-for-tat. But there is an option #4: to treat it like a staff complaint, research what happened and respond openly with your findings. When stories don't match up - and they sometimes won't - let players decide for themselves.

This is something that many roleplaying MUDs do. And while they all certainly have their fair share of arguments and complaints about staff, people generally get along better when the air is cleared. By communicating more with the wider MUD community staff will also gain a better idea for how other games do things and how their practices can be adapted to Armageddon.

Generally, this thread has made me hopeful that improvements can happen with time. I look forward to being a part of the game during this time and seeing how things go.

[Ammut]

I've been banned and unbanned.  It's not a fun feeling to be banned from a game/community you have spent decades playing.  In that experience it was absolutely my fault, though.  I can't help but wonder if maybe it would have been possible for things to be worked out over a voice conversation with staff...

"Ammut you really screwed the pooch on this one.  You know this was an IC secret that we spent months coding and planning, right?  It really sucks to have someone spread that around in an OOC fashion.  We are probably going to have to pull all that out now and start something completely new."

"Shit, I never really thought about it like that.  I really did screw up."

Staff are people too and make mistakes.  It's easy to forget the human behind the wall of text.  I generally respect people more when they can admit their mistakes and try to make amends... so I'll end by saying it's good to see that here.

[Dar]

 I haven't really been playing the game for years. Aside an occasional feeble attempt despite my busy schedule. Nothing to do with any particular Arm related reason, just very busy irl.

Having said that, despite an immense desire to play, if we are really at a stage where we are banning Delirium, I probably won't return when I have the time. Would probably prefer to use that free time on some other game.

I truly advice Staff to rectify this.  Not unban Delirium, no. Explain the reasoning.  Proper, full, translucent explanation. Explain to players why did you do this in such a way that we support your decision.  There is no vacuum? Great.  Because to my quick (admittedly ignorant) viewpoint, this decision did happen in a vacuum.  And no, being aware of this is not stopping me from choosing not to play. 

It's true, you don't have to do this. You don't have to do anything! Neither do the players. 



Ps: Could someone pm me what exactly got Delirium banned

PPS: Oh bah. It already got reversed.  Gawd, can't even let me rant for a little bit.

[valeria]

I agree with the folks who have said that this sort of apology is rare to see (and I don't just mean from staff of this game, but in any context in the world). And not just a 'yeah sorry I hurt your feelings' responsibility-shifting apology, but an actual and specific apology? I respect it.

I can think of a time where there would have been a double-down and subsequent deletion of like everything in the thread and a thread lock. This is a much less bad look.

[Jihelu]

The last time I played in serious I had a not-so fun interaction with staff where it felt like pulling teeth to get a response over something I was blatantly looking at IC.

I was trying to chop down fancy grey-wood trees, you know the ones.
I found an area that mentioned a large quantity of them.

I asked if they were cuttable, as I had issues with the code. The normal woodcutting code wasn't working, I've used it before, I tried all the syntax I could. I wished up asking if I was over thinking things (I could see MAYBE a hint in the room that it would be hard/impossible to cut wood in that room? It wasn't clear. Hence me asking staff)

No reply.

I go "Okay, I'll send in a request" then I send it in, I link the room, I ask if the room just isn't loggable and there's another room or what.

Shalooonsh sends me some long ass post about the mysteries of Armageddon and how I'll 'figure it out one day'.
I just wanted to know if the damn room was loggable? I'm surrounded by wood. I have an axe. Just tell me the room isn't cuttable and to keep searching for another.
Hell, maybe edit the room so it's apparent you can't cut there or add a small amount of Styrax to the room? Wouldn't that be neato?

I then find a DIFFERENT room, that is literally described as a grove. I think 'Oh, this has to be it'. I try the syntax. Nothing. It isn't working. I try more syntax. Nothing. I wish all. I get a passive dismissal. I begin asking blatant 'I'm kinda pissed questions', stuff like "I am PHYSICALLY LOOKING AT A TREE. I am emoting WALKING UP TO THE TREE. I am SWINGING MY AXE AT THE TREE. Why is it not working?". Shalooonsh, or maybe someone else who can really tell, finally takes a look at the room. They specifically tell me the room is NOT BROKEN, anyway they then fix the room so the wood syntax works.

I then semi-bitched about it in discord and Shalooonsh says something about how it was okay because he thought I was in the other wood room, the one I barely got a coherent response to anyway, so that makes it okay I'm actively wishing up and getting ignored.

I could be wrong on a few details but however it went, staff response wasn't helpful what so ever. I was literally surrounded by trees, the code wasn't working, and I was being treated like a dumb ass.

That kinda killed the motivation I had to play. I had accomplished everything I wanted to on the character, I started with a simple concept and I expanded it, I expanded it more, I went into completely random ass directions with it, and then I decided 'Well, he's rich, I've done a lot of suicidal stuff, I'm retiring' (Oh yeah, also please don't plot kill off my character who's like 40-50 years old now because I mentioned OOC he's stored? What the fuck was that post? That's the kinda stuff a kid does, 'if I can't have it no one can!'. I've seen staff refuse to tell key people their key employees had been stored and had to tell them myself several times. Do a better job of letting other players know someone has stored and they won't have to use OOC)

Anyway how are ya'll doing I've been writing TTRPG content and selling it and I've been reading a lot.

To answer specific questions though.

"A present feeling of stagnation?"
I guess in a literal sense, yes. I did everything I wanted to do, I've had so many bad interactions with staff I didn't want to engage in greater politics (I've had plots approved OOC, then immediately refused OOC by a higher up staffer. I've had that happen several times. In the 'Murder Corruption betrayel' game I was denied opportunities to...corruption and betray people? What games is this?)

"A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?"
I've been reading a lot of Dark Sun and lets just say, if this was an Armageddon player Rikus wouldn't have made it out of the slave pens. Or he would have used the code to have done it and a Black Robe would have flown in to get mad at him.

Karma gating?

Karma is a weird mechanic to have for your serious roleplaying game. Then again the entire code base is weird to have for your serious roleplaying game. Honestly not super put off by it.

Shabago's a big jerk?

Shalooonsh is kind of an asshole and in this very thread asking for feedback Halaster's apology for banning someone for giving feedback mentioned it hurt his feelings because 'the players know nothing!' (Then fucking give context? Replying to player feedback with 'Oh you don't know the INNER MACHINATIONS OF STAFFSIDE' isn't the defense you think it is. It makes you look like a monolith that is a god over the ignorant dumb dumb players)


Things I kinda liked about the game while I played it:

For whatever reason exploring the Southlands/Red Desert really tickled my brain right even though there's barely anything out there (Same with the silt sea. When you reply to me about how I don't know 'THE INNER MACHINATIONS OF THE STAFF SIDE SILT SEA' I mapped the entire thing out. It's fuckin' boring).

I did some...fun? Things with a noble. Things you aren't supposed to really do. Downside: The staff animation we got just kept saying 'NOOOOOOOOO' over and over and not wanting to budge the plot everywhere. As I've been reading Dark Sun: What we did was hella Dark Sun. The response we got was not. I think the noble stored/stopped playing shortly after. Disappointing.

This isn't even a fun thing it's a complaint. I met, I want to say, 3-4 sorcerers in my time playing a mundane. It was ironic because this was a 'I want nothing to do with learning sorcery' character (I can't imagine this would go well anyway, I imagine staff would send a bomb to my house for suggesting the heinous act).
In this time I saw:
1: A preserver spamming gather and then kinda shrugging it off when I mentioned it in character. They then summoned a -Thing but the thing had no hands or ways of holding anything-. They then summoned a weapon and handed it to the thing. I then went 'how is it holding the weapon?'. They shrugged.
2: I met a defiler because I had god tier scan. We talked for a bit. He was kinda crazy. Decent guy. Didn't attack me.
3: Don't even remember the third.

I also met like 2 'kill on sight' rogue mages and they were reasonable as well.

I agree with the folks who have said that this sort of apology is rare to see (and I don't just mean from staff of this game, but in any context in the world). And not just a 'yeah sorry I hurt your feelings' responsibility-shifting apology, but an actual and specific apology? I respect it.

I can think of a time where there would have been a double-down and subsequent deletion of like everything in the thread and a thread lock. This is a much less bad look.

In my brain this thread goes on for another page or two and staff goes 'Well uhh we got all the feedback we wanted ty'

I don't know if this is my controversial crack-pipe idea but the Armageddon 'grind for competence at the coded world you'll be relying on' doesn't seem sustainable. You can't build a plot with your own skills without devoting silly time to getting better, you can't rely on staff to build a plot without incredible interest by them, their boss, his brother, and hoping his boss doesn't hate you. You try to do something, die because you aren't a coded god like I am or you fall into a hole you didn't know was there and oops it's dusk and the 4 gith get you (Ironically I've never died that way). You then make a new character. That plot died with you and the staff interest in that character or your own stats. Someone on discord excitedly asks you if that plot will ever go anywhere, you say no, they plot kill your already killed off character for the audacity and dock your karma. Now you can't even be a cool fire man.

On Player-Clans from pages ago: If you're worried about people making 'half baked ideas' (In which case, you have a lot more issues because this is a serious roleplaying game) maybe you should make karma less regenerative and let people fast-track clans with karma or deal with staff more.
Last time I tried dealing with making a gang: I posted an overview of what I wanted to do, staff replied 8 days later, I asked a clarifying question on the physics of oil. Eight more days went by. I decided I didn't want to wait 2 irl weeks to do this stuff and just went back to playing the game.

Last time I tried getting a warehouse: I waited over 2 irl weeks after meeting all the qualifications for a warehouse because the Templar wasn't ever on. I stored before I ever got the warehouse. Didn't bother asking staff to be an intermediary because why even try at that point?

[Delirium]

I accept your apology, and I offer my own for the parts of my deleted post that caused offense. I do not apologize for the overall message or opinions I had, but I will try to phrase them more constructively, if I repost.

This is the first time I've received a public apology, and I can think of only one other instance where I received a genuine apology in private, and that one was also from you, Halaster. The closest anyone else ever came was the classic "I'm sorry you feel that way" apology followed by figuratively slamming me into the ground.

I will have to consider how and if to respond further, but there are a few considerations I want to express.

The message when I was banned clearly indicated that I was thought to have malicious intent. I did not.

There was no public indication that I'd been banned until my husband pointed it out.

Further, even while apologizing, you discredited my narrative by calling it entirely one-sided in my favor. In fact, in the post I linked to, I admitted I was not blameless, though almost amusingly, my frustration resided in the difficulties I'd faced in resolving confrontations in a way that didn't feel entirely one-sided in staff's favor.

In other instances, it felt like the staff was playing shoot the messenger, and even when later vindicated, I never got so much as a nod toward the idea that, hey, maybe y'all were a little rough, and I was right.

Further, no matter what started the disagreement, what I say seems to be held against me forever; what staff did, I was expected to unilaterally forgive, no matter how many times it happened. I did sincerely try, but if staff tried to give me a pass, it didn't exactly come through, and things kept spiraling poorly.

Ender has witnessed me painstakingly writing and re-writing reports, for literal hours, trying to find a way to communicate an idea or concern so that it would be positively received; it was like walking on eggshells and while I do accept some fault for things reaching that point, I do not accept all of it, nor should I.

Until now, it's been a "known thing" that staff would rather circle the wagons and die on their hill before ever admitting fault, so this apology is a great step forward, and hopefully it is not a one-time action caused by general outcry to an action which became public knowledge, and is a genuine attempt at reconciliation. I further hope that reflection and reconciliation becomes a standard moving forward, for staff and players both.

In our last conversation, Halaster, I ended it by complimenting you and thanking you for the work you'd done. I thought we parted on the understanding that though we disagreed, we could still respect each other.

The strength of your reaction to my original post makes me think I was wrong. That's a shame if so.

All together, this situation further highlights the breakdown in staff and player communication, and the severe disadvantage players are placed at in respect to staff-player power dynamics.

I appreciate the ban being rescinded, but I had no intention of further engaging with the community after my original post. So while I do accept your apology, it is too late for me; all the same, I hope this is the start of better accountability and behavior on the part of all staff going forward, and not a one-time occurrence

I'm not sure if I have anything further to say, or if it's worth saying. I'll consider it.

[Jihelu]

There's secret spooky places you can read Delirium's post and...I have no idea why it was removed. Because staff couldn't find enough ways to say 'You don't know our machinations?' while hitting the quote button?

[Wday]

Okay time to say We'll all do better and get back to playing!  Shit come chase my character and plot dirty shit against.  I swear it will make you all feel better and I got a tough chin for such!

[Brisket]

Everything I want to say about Deliriums ban has already been said.

It's just sad and utterly harsh she got a ban for answering a question posed. She was passionate about it, so what?

Whoever banned her really went overboard and took it way too personal.

This basically, as a player returning from a bit of a break it does not bode particularly well for things improving on a staffing level, despite the recent positive changes to the code/policies that brought me back.

[Iiyola]

Anyway...

with all said and done... some interesting points were brought up, advices, suggestions, which staff could review and implement.

The Karma replenishing thing is a great example of what can immediately be changed in game, for the betterment of play and player retention.

@Staff : Based on this thread, will there be any changes planned in the coming month?

Or perhaps have a Townhall, like we did in the past. We should have one regularly anyway. Maybe twice a year, just for staff and player base to be informed and to stay connected.

[Bebop]

I think we could avoid both players and staff feeling misunderstood if we didn't have such strict rules on discussing the game and people didn't feel like they policing ooc as well as ic. Staff and players are feeling similar feelings on both sides.

[Abaya]

If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?

Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...

[Yam]

This situation is a good example of what goes wrong with player retention. People like Halaster ban people like Delirium for stating the truth in what was an incredibly delicate way. That's probably not the only issue, but it is a big one. Staff as a whole keep letting their hotheads ban, alienate, and otherwise chase away their community. Banning Delirium for that post was incredibly petty and makes me think there are probably a lot more similarly poor decisions being made against players that didn't elicit the same kind of uproar and still stand.

[WarriorPoet]

Shitshow but hopefully it ENDS on a highnote with earnest apologies, a positive shift in player-staff communication, and a much needed reminder that we all just want to have fun and tell stories.

My enjoyment of the game always increases tenfold when I avoid the GDB and Discord. So, back to that. Much love.

[Malken]

If there wasn't the secrecy there wouldn't be much Armageddon left to care about though, it'd lose the excitement, the mystery, the intrigue, the moments of realization when you discover something for the first time, especially for newer players who haven't had stuff ruined by people talking about it OOC?

Maybe part of the problem is that maybe staff don't find policing it fun and so things have been more lax in the past, but recent stuff has proved it's really important for keeping it fun and fair for everyone else and not just the few...

I don't really understand what's keeping you from avoiding people or situation where you feel like you'll be told secrets about the game? Is it other players? the GDB? Discord? There are a lot of players who play the game without ever interacting with anything else but the game itself.

Being told about something exciting that's going on in the game by other players or the GDB is pretty much the only thing that makes me want to play again once in a while. Telling most of us who have already left to play the game to see what's going on isn't really going to work because we are at the 'nothing ever happens, so what's the point...' way of thinking. There's no excitement being shared with us other than from other players to pull us back in. Does that make sense?

[Bebop]

For clarification I didn't mean telling IG secrets or discussing current plotlines I meant things like -

1) Being more passive about how old IC info has to be before it can be shared

2) Maybe not giving staff secret aliases

3) Being transparent with the community about complaints

4) Letting people state what characters they play if they want

5) Just being able to have more of an open dialogue about the game

6) Being more collaborative on code changes and game changes

It just seems like players don't feel like they can talk about their experiences openly because of staff repercussion, and staff don't feel they can speak on their perspective openly without throwing players under the bus and having a negative effect on players.

It seems both sides are pining for transparency in an increasingly communicative/call out world which would suggest to me policies need updating.

Also Halaster owning his mistakes and fixing them is a very big deal.  I have my own issues with staff, and have had varying ones throughout the eighteen years (omfg) I've been playing this game.  It'd be better if none of us ever made mistakes but we all do. I do feel like staff is genuinely trying and they're in a tough spot.  This feedback and reverberation is a long time coming, and some of it comes from staff that are no longer even staff.

Delirium and Ender - I do hope you guys return to the game and can find some way to enjoy it again in its current iteration.