Feedback on playing and log-ins

[najdorf]

I also think that the desire to make a lasting impact on a game, especially from veterans, is undeniable. Although we are playing a game, our egos are pushing us in this direction. This has been raised many times as a critical lacking feature of game.

I also understand that staff builds amazing culture / clans and want players to continue building on them.

I recommend you consider a project where players can build things into the game (x karma+), from buildings to permanent changes on rooms. That can be extended to create room objects that look like buildings even. If someone abuses, you can kindly warn, and I'm sure no one will abuse it. This would dramatically reduce staff's workload on burden of carrying out player initiated projects that require changes to gameworld.

[Patuk]

When a post mentions no names and mentions no IC events beyond 'I was stored by force', I think deleting it is the wrong move and a bad look for sure.

[HazelHomewrecker]

At the end of the day, just like the rest of us, Delirium is human and is entitled to her emotions and passion toward the game we all play and love. She absolutely crossed a line in her post, but a great majority of what she had to say resonated with quite a few players--that much is obvious. This game has had an ugly past, and there are plenty of ugly secrets, that much I have no doubt of. However, the reason for this thread even existing is not to air out dirty laundry in an offensive or hostile manner (not that Delirium's post was inherently aggressive, even if portions of the content were a bit.. risky). So, while I agree with Valeria's sentiment, I can also see the reasoning behind why staff censored what Delirium wrote--even if it's a horrible look.

We all want one thing: to see the game flourish. Let's steer the conversation back toward achieving that.

[Krath]

Wow....Just wow. That was fucking ridiculous. On a thread requesting feedback, you censor what was arguably the most detailed and well-written player experience on the thread. Staff choosing not to defend themselves is a decision.

[Armaddict]

Wow....Just wow. That was fucking ridiculous. On a thread requesting feedback, you censor what was arguably the most detailed and well-written player experience on the thread. Staff choosing not to defend themselves is a decision.

It was also one that was not completely, but dominantly bred out of a poor relationship due to out-of-game factors and having little to do with the game, management of the game, and more to do with personal issues with a single staffer from...out of the game.

Their elephant in the room was nowhere near my elephant.  Frankly, that elephant is one that is at this point a kitten by relative comparison.  Talking about how reasonable you are by issuing a set of demands on how to fix things is actually unreasonable in the vast majority of cases.

[Ender]

Here are the issues I see that have kept me personally from continuing to play.

1.  Conflict Resolution in Armageddon is poor.

People will always come to conflict from time to time.  Personalities will conflict, feelings will get hurt, and even the best intentions can be taken in the worst light.  I can only speak from my own experience, but when I finally did speak up on something that was gravely bothering me, it did not seem like any of my concerns were heard, none of my suggestions entertained, and was generally shown the door and have not played since, and no attempt was made on staff's side to salvage it, so it was clear to me that the resolution to that conflict was that I would no longer be an Armageddon MUD player, and have come to terms with that. 

2.  Power dynamics between staff and players make for a toxic environment of fear of retaliation from staff when conflicts do arise.

Personally I've felt bulldozed, ignored, and mistreated by staff a few times over my 20+ years of playing but I've never once been apologized to for any of that treatment, and maybe a lot of that is that I did not speak up when those things happened because the squeeze did not seem worth the juice.  As a player I'm simply in a weaker position than a staff member, and risking angering a staff member over a perceived slight seemed riskier than just gritting my teeth and baring it.  When I did speak up, it was almost as if those fears were confirmed as stated earlier.

3.  Sanctity of IC trumps well being of the community and creates an isolating experience.

Generally not knowing who is behind the keyboard has made for a richer experience in Armageddon, but overall can be a very isolating one.  Having friends who play Armageddon has been one of the greatest things to come out of the game, and being able to share those experiences with them one of the greatest benefits.  Being mature enough to seperate IC from OOC is something that should be afforded to players more.

4.  Collaboration needs to actually be collaborative

I recently saw a post about not telling others about the storage of your PC because you might be spoiling stories.  Overall this put a huge bad taste in my mouth.  It basically reaffirms that players do not own their own stories and they all play at the behest of staff.  This is a bad take, full stop.  This game needs players and the way you keep them is to make them feel ownership over their own stories.  Telling them you can and will do things with their stored PCs without their consent or even input is a really bad look.

5.  When personality conflicts can't be resolved beetween a staff member and a player, allow players to choose not to interact with a staffer (and vice versa if that is not already a policy).

I've seen this brought up a few times and staff's response was that players cannot request to not interact with a certain staffer.  This puts players in positions where they are forced to interact with staffers they conflict with or just quit the game.  Updating that policy might save some losses from that.

6.  Banning my wife for her post is probably a bad look

You asked for feedback, Delirium gave it, and was it blunt?  Yea.  But doling out a ban and deleting her post for that just kinda proves the whole point of this.  If the gut reaction of the game whenever there is conflict with players is to just silence and ban them, yea, you are going to lose players.  Mediation is hard, it's easier to just cut losses and lose players when conflicts arise.  It's harder to mend fences than it is to wreck them.


Personally I don't see a way back for myself.  I've been happier and generally more stress free not playing.  I started to feel like I was playing FOR staff instead of for myself.  I wanted their approval of my characters, and taking a step back and realizing that made me understand I should be playing for my own enjoyment, and not for anyone else.  This put me in an unhealthy relationship with the game, and maybe it is better this way.  I had many enjoyable moments playing and many great interactions with staff and players alike, but I just have to do what is right for me, and playing in a game where I do not feel welcome or trusted anymore just isn't it.

[Armaddict]

I will say, despite being contentious with pretty much most of Delirium's post (and highly skeptical/critical of Ender's as well), I'm not in favor of bans.  Pretty much ever.  For me bans are for repeated instances of egregious behavior.

I don't particularly like censorship.  I don't like forced removal.  I don't think it's a suitable end to most scenarios and doesn't lead to any significant change.  Temporary bans as a bap on the nose can occur, but make sure the bap on the nose is warranted.

My critical eye of statements like 'Conflict resolution is poor' and 'Power dynamics are toxic' essentially don't bring me to agreement; they bring me to this recurring theme of everything being shit unless things are molded to how we want them.  Does it suck to not get what I want out of a situation, particularly when I have been working towards it?  Hell yes.  But there's a fair degree of similarity to real life situations where there are a bunch of people all with different ideas of how things 'ought' to be.  We have an entire playerbase clamoring for changes to this and that, and every change makes this group disappointed or irritated or that group disappointed or irritated.  We can't even figure out karma because of how built up the exchange is between those who don't care if mages are everywhere and those who think they drown out the mundane.  Then you have a group of people who are selected to deal with those situations, knowing that every agreement or disagreement they have is going to make them a sparkling instance of <insert bad behavior trait> to -someone- out there.  There really isn't a win-win in most scenarios.

[Abaya]

RE:  Sanctity of IC
Time and time again people who should be the paragons of trust have shown they are not. But that's not an Armageddon thing. That's human nature, stories that have been repeated uncounted times through history. Not only in our governments, in our police, but also in community organisers, whether self-appointed or voted in, corruption gets EVERYWHERE.

The more karma or trust given in a special role, the more oversight of actions there should be - but you see how that can sound like it's about players or staff equally? That's because that's just incontrovertibly how things are and have to be. If you think just because someone has special privileges that they are never going to metagame, in fact it's more the opposite. We don't need some people being given special privileges to talk more OOC than others do.

And some of the things in the post like the suggestion someone should go through some kind of conversion therapy, that they "needs help IRL", that's really not the kind of thing it's okay to say about people even if in decades past it was.

It feels like this is a case study in not having inappropriate conduct with other players or staff equally really

[Brytta Léofa]

A lot of trust would be conserved if all staff would keep their interactions with players unfailingly respectful, especially with the ones who for whatever reason grind your gears. This is not just a matter of tone; if you are typing nice words and thinking "what is this dipshit on about" it's going to come through.

(Staff have been almost unfailingly good to me. This is a place y'all sometimes fail though.)

Semi-relatedly, I wish that all of staff would retire the "pray I do not alter it further" trope. Common example: player suggests X on the GDB. Staff retorts, "nah I'd make it even more realistic than X and everyone would die!" (I exaggerate.) Brokkr, I love you so long and you've done so much more for the game than I ever will, but this is one you do regularly. Maybe it's a tiny stupid thing, but it feels like staff throwing their weight around and Revelling in Their Power. "Haha I'm more powerful than you and I get to decide" is true, but only one side gets to laugh.

The union of these two things is when someone says, e.g.: "I sent in a request for X, Y, and Z, and I got snarked at and some perverse version of Y and Z got done." In a perfect world, it would be unthinkable for a player to be afraid to suggest something in a report. In a perfect world, a staff member might hate everything a player does but would respond to requests patiently and honestly.

Obviously we're all imperfect.

[Brytta Léofa]

And some of the things in the post like the suggestion...

(For the record, that's a very odd misreading of the post in question. I won't discuss further.)

[Abaya]

It was a pretty blatant insinuation about someone's mental health and that they should be "fixed".

[Halaster]

I appreciate Ender's post and feedback, it was done in a way that doesn't attack anyone, and doesn't require spitting out personal issues of players to "clear the air".  It uses examples while not requiring people to know more to understand the context.  I don't feel that Ender's post is disrespectful nor an attack.  He frames it as his feelings without projecting a malicious narrative on other people.  My thoughts on this specific point:

5.  When personality conflicts can't be resolved beetween a staff member and a player, allow players to choose not to interact with a staffer (and vice versa if that is not already a policy).

It is unfeasible to have someone who staffs over a specific area not resolve requests or interact with a specific player just because those two don't get along.  I get where you're coming from, and that would be nice if it's something we could accommodate, but it's just not practical.  There are actually times when we attempt to do this, but only if it's reasonably possible without undue burden on staff.  For example, a player was in a clan when I asked a Storyteller if they'd staff this clan.  The Storyteller said they'd rather not while that person is there, so they didn't.  In that scenario it made sense because the player was already there, and we had alternatives to staff that clan.  But we will not make it a policy that a staffer won't interact with or answer requests if a specific player asks.

[Patuk]

If someone is so unpopular that no player wants anything to do with them, it's likely a poor idea to force the issue anyway. To insist players either bear it or leave the clan entirely translates to telling the players that they are wrong and don't get to know what's fun on them.

[Halaster]

If someone is so unpopular that no player wants anything to do with them, it's likely a poor idea to force the issue anyway. To insist players either bear it or leave the clan entirely translates to telling the players that they are wrong and don't get to know what's fun on them.

Agreed.  Thankfully this whole notion so rarely comes up that it has never risen to this hypothetical.

[Ender]

A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?

List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.

I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong.  She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it.  Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out.  But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.

[Halaster]

A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?

List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.

I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong.  She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it.  Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out.  But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.

Bans don't happen in a vacuum.  We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.

[Suhuy]

Bans don't happen in a vacuum.  We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.

You guys still aren't doing yourselves any favors on this one. In a thread where you're asking why people are playing less, the irony is extra rich.

I don't think even Nyr would've gone this far. He would've just written a three page long rant rebutting Delerium or whatever.

The answer as to why people are playing less is so obvious and so simple, it's staring you right in the face. This thread is proof of that fact.

[najdorf]

Bans don't happen in a vacuum.  We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.

Offending and being toxic is very subjective. It is hard to set common evaluation criteria. A staffer can come up and say they are offended by my typos ban me too. I live in a country where 1 new constitution item that's been introduced (sounding exactly like this) devastated the entire nation because people in power started feeling offended about things and 50% of journalist and liberals are now in jail.

[SpyGuy]

Going to have to comment again here, I missed Delirium's post but this is ridiculous.  If the post broke some rule then delete the offending part but let her speak her mind.  In my experience, Delirium is passionate but one of the least toxic people on the GDB and Discord. This is not the way to handle criticism or encourage people to continue interacting with staff, the community or the game.

Staff are human too. I've had staff be rude to me.  I've had staff go hard on a PC for stepping outside the invisible line drawn in the sandbox.  I've had staff railroad the results they wanted even when it didn't make much IC sense. I've also seen staff make decisions that negatively affect the game and playability and be uninterested in feedback before or after implementation.

It happens, we can all have a bad day, strongly disagree with each other or in some cases just be unable to get along because the other person rubs you the wrong way.   I had hoped this thread would remain uncensored with the understanding that even harsh criticism comes from a place of wanting the game to be healthy and thrive.  No one but an obvious troll, and I refuse to believe Delirium was trolling, should be banned for expressing their opinions in a thread staff started asking for feedback.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, it's a terrible look.

[Malken]

This is sad. Delirium has given so much to this game in the last 20 years. She really doesn't deserve this.

[dumbstruck]

The player's right to privacy:


I had more specific feedback to IC stuff, and shared it with Shabago in Discord, but the above is a tongue in cheek but sincere bit of feedback about GDB discourse and playing and logins. When you feel like you are silenced and have something that is being vaunted as 'your right to privacy' used to silence you by people in a position of power over you that you are literally accountable to... and they never have to be accountable to anyone but each other...

It creates a dynamic.

[Is Friday]

Echoing a lot of Ender's points, and my own 2 sids:

1. I felt as though a long lived character of mine was purposefully executed by a staff NPC railroaded plot.

2. I asked to play a particular role in Tuluk but apparently bards aren't a supported archetype. (Isn't that... very basic Tuluk?)

3. When I ran leadership PCs a great deal of effort from me only led to more leaning on me to produce content, rather than staff meeting me halfway. This was especially prevalent for when I played my Atrium leader Ellenoire.

Stepping away from the game with all these compounded issues and repeated trauma/emotional labor really was great for me. I've devoted my energy elsewhere and now make a full time living as a storyteller in tabletop. My environment is actually the opposite of what Arm was for me in many ways: Supportive, inclusive, kind, and collaborative.

There is so much missing from this experience of Arm because of the archaic barriers between staff and players. It just doesn't work anymore. At least not for me.

I'm thankful for the memories (most of them.) But I just don't see myself returning in any meaningful way based on the repeated abuse. I still think about my noble being murdered, for refusing to have sex with the NPC. Staff married her to him as a punishment for not wanting to participate in a plot.

Anonymity of staff and lack of real consequence for misbehavior has really created such a toxic experience. I didn't have the full perspective on that until I stepped away.

[CirclelessBard]

A present feeling of stagnation?
A feeling of not enough for your player to accomplish/glass ceiling?
Karma gating?
Shabago's a big jerk?

List your game related reasons if you could, please. Keep in mind the usual year time frame for recent events and aim to be vague enough to not cause issues for others/on-going stories, but otherwise have it.

I do not intend on posting any more in this thread or likely on this forum after this, but I did want to point out that deleting and banning Delirium from the gdb when this was expressly part of Shabago's initial ask for feedback feels really wrong.  She did not name names, did not out any IC secrets, and was still punished for it.  Yea she said some harsh stuff, and maybe one or two parts could have been pulled back and edited out.  But wholesale deleting her post and any responses and then banning her for speaking her mind in a thread that was dedicated to allowing players to speak their mind feels like more of the same and one of the main reasons I've decided to leave this community.

Bans don't happen in a vacuum.  We ban repeat offenders, players who are toxic to the community and/or staff.

It's frustrating to see that Delirium was ostensibly banned from the GDB for attacking the character of someone who can't defend themselves, and then staff proceed to publicly insinuate that Delirium is a toxic person - which is itself an attack on someone who can't defend herself (and no, Ender being able to post in her defense doesn't count). I think staff should take some time to cool off, and seriously reconsider their decision. When you ask players why they are no longer playing, it should be expected that some of those answers will be hard to read. This feels hasty.

Having returned to the game recently, I can say that a pain point for me has simply been finding people to interact with. I logged a total of 8 hours in the past two days, spread out between peak and off-peak times, and I simply don't know where players hang out anymore. I've tried all the taverns I know about and consistently found no one until the 8th hour or so. I think there is a point to be made from one of Delirium's posts that was deleted where she said that a lot of development and staffing in the game has had the effect of making players question whether it is "good roleplay" to interact with one another. If "what my character would do in this situation" is simply walk past a character, literally sneak away after being looked at, or ignore them, then I think that needs to be handwaved more often, and staff need to step back and recognize that player interaction should really take priority over what might be considered a "not IC" interaction.

[Iiyola]

Everything I want to say about Deliriums ban has already been said.

It's just sad and utterly harsh she got a ban for answering a question posed. She was passionate about it, so what?

Whoever banned her really went overboard and took it way too personal.