Recent Poison Updates Questions

[Bloodpaint]

It's not fun for others to have what was there taken away forever, because of just a few very loud people on a forum, it's important to consider that when sweeping changes are made like these, there's usually something taken away, for whatever is changed, and it's hard for most people to speak up since we can't get into specifics. Yes, it puts people on the defensive, because already having the rug pulled away from underneath and then people saying go further, it isn't a nice feeling. I hope you know how I feel now.

[geminferno]

Yes, of course! But, I just hate to see things become heated. It's easy to get passionate about things, especially something that makes you very frustrated! However, it usually solves nothing to get overly defensive. It's good to take a step back for a moment, breathe, make even come back to the conversation before replying. Being too quick to respond often leads to people saying things they don't mean or something too harsh, you know?

I'm in no way trying to invalidate your feelings, though! I hope that isn't what I came across doing. ;-;

[Pariah]

Can we please take a step back a moment and keep in mind that there are people behind the screens. Make sure your choice of words aren't too accusatory or can be misinterpreted into something offensive.

I want to mirror this sentiment, and also say sorry if any of my conversation in here has came off in a way derogatory against the creative efforts of the coders and staff in general.  My intent is just to make the system better, to point out some things I see as flaws and downsides that can be improved.

I will say that looking at my original account that got banned, I've been here since 2007 and I don't recall much working with the old poison system outside of being poisoned by it and knowing the red pill cures bloodburn and the green pill cures vomit poison.

Now as I said before and there is no reason to rehash all the reasons, I feel that the current system is flawed because of that need for ooc knowledge to learn what's what.  Not because it's not cool.  In fact I think it's pretty damn interesting the whole mash, pill, vial thing.  It just saddens me that I could be making cures for things that will ultimately kill me, but might not be able to due to not having ooc knowledge and not ic knowledge.

But yeah as this person said, keep it constructive and not flamey.

[Svalinya]

stuff

Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM

[Bloodpaint]

stuff

Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM

Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)

It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better

All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")

[Pariah]

stuff

Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM

Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)

It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better

All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")

Not everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?

[Svalinya]

stuff

Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM

Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)

It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better

All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")

play less delves, you'll make it

[Bloodpaint]

Not everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?

Sure, but the problem is everything is very linked between NPCs and PCs, due to how it's all set up - so one aspect knocks on at the other with any slight change, and so it became something that gives favor to some types of characters over others (even if it wasn't intended that way originally)

Maybe if there was different poisons that animals used compared to what players use it could be better (like distilling something an animal has to change it, or something that is not poisonous usually but becomes it)

play less delves, you'll make it

It's affecting a lot of types of city characters too, and moving people towards playing certain races, definitely. But that's kind of sad since not many people play those.

[Pariah]

stuff

Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM

Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)

It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better

All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")

play less delves, you'll make it

That said, remember to be cordial and constructive with your comments please less personal attackish.

[dumbstruck]

Not everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?

Sure, but the problem is everything is very linked between NPCs and PCs, due to how it's all set up - so one aspect knocks on at the other with any slight change, and so it became something that gives favor to some types of characters over others (even if it wasn't intended that way originally)

Maybe if there was different poisons that animals used compared to what players use it could be better (like distilling something an animal has to change it, or something that is not poisonous usually but becomes it)

play less delves, you'll make it

It's affecting a lot of types of city characters too, and moving people towards playing certain races, definitely. But that's kind of sad since not many people play those.

It's really the knock on effect that I find problematic (how it affects basic wilderness traversal), and the fact that the knowledge now requires a bunch of study, it's not a 'KISS' system for basic (see low tier) poisons as it used to be, because when it was, it was SO intuitive that joining any clan that went outdoors, you were immediately taught what these three basic cures did ICly, and in analyzing them you were able to tell how to make them, and that was all IC as well. It felt more organic and realistic, because you had to seek out someone for exotic poison and cure information but for stuff that would beat common critter bites? Yeah, everyone knew it. Because they were common critters that are everywhere.

[Hestia]

Hi there!

You folks are all terrific. You contribute all sorts of different constructive thoughts and ideas to this thread.

Let's keep it that way eh?

Love,
She who will pout and be disappointed and lecture you if you don't.

[Patuk]

All of you are too old to talk to each other like this. Jesus, man.

[TragicMagick]

I sort of wish the pipeline from weird plant to in a city, on the blade of an elf actually functioned again. I recall playing a Guildee when the old guilds were still a thing and extended subclasses were added. I played a ranger slipknife. The Guild was able to effectively get poisons, keep them, provide and apply them to any party willing to pay.

I don't think it's common any longer for that to happen- outside of one low potency option. I feel like something was lost because of this.

I also wish that the balance of herb locations weren't also tipped favoring the North, but that may be a personal bias. It just seems like if you pick the South you're not going to be able to experience the poison/cure system in any meaningful way without making up a really silly excuse to ride across the entire gameworld to pick leaves. The slinky effect of the lack of foliage in the South means players there won't get to experience it much until either more herb-like items are added or another game change occurs. And that sucks.

[Pariah]

I just had a hell of an idea, which maybe someone has already mentioned but if they haven't, I don't know how it has too an idiot like me to think of.

Alright, now I'll be the first to say realism isn't realistic in a game about magick and elves, HOWEVER, I will also be the first to mention that things should make LOGICAL SENSE.

So I have tinkered with the poison/brew system since it was reworked, hardly ever before that honestly outside of carrying red tablets for fighting cilops when I played a northerner.

Anyways, here is the idea, right now we have a cure/poison system that's anchored around flavors:

So say Bloodburn cure is Flavor A and Flavor B = Bloodburn Cure who's potency depends on vial or tablet and skill of the user.  This is a non arguable fact of the current system and nobody debates that.

However, there is sorta a chicken before the egg situation with finding the flavors, you need to find someone reputable, analyze/taste their work and learn it, or be told it.  There is no way outside of HAVING one to find the cure recipe on your own without ooc or ic knowledge.  No path to discovery.

With Cures, you luckily can get around this by analyze and taste with an existing cure, but with poisons I have yet to find that.

So what if, say Flavors had an inverse, a yin and a yang.

So let's say Flavor A is soft (I know it doesn't make sense but easiest way to describe this as a flavor) and Flavor B is hard, Flavor C is Black and Flavor D is White.

Let's say a bloodburn cure is made with Flavor A and Flavor C combined into whatever mash/pill/vial.
And the bloodburn poison is in fact the inverse of Flavor B and Flavor D, because they are opposites and that just makes LOGICAL SENSE, as if one cures a poison, then the adverse should cause it?

Why would this help?  Because someone could analyze/taste a herb and go, hmm, this is hard, I have learned that soft helps make a cure to bloodburn, and this branch is White flavored which is the opposite of the other component, so it makes sense where one will cure me of a poison, one will actually give me that poison.

Now this only solved half the problem with the OOC info being needed currently, but it's a step in the right direction I think.

(All these examples of flavor are for ease of understanding, not because they are actual flavors)

What do you guys think?

EDIT:

Also I feel there should be some type of ooc reference to these.  Say you have hard and soft, there should be  a helpfile somewhere that states, Hard is the opposite of Soft, because for some words it's hard to tell the opposite.

[mansa]

...
However, there is sorta a chicken before the egg situation with finding the flavors, you need to find someone reputable, analyze/taste their work and learn it, or be told it.  There is no way outside of HAVING one to find the cure recipe on your own without ooc or ic knowledge.  No path to discovery.

Use the discuss command with every NPC herbalist.  They may give you some discoveries.

[Brokkr]

What do you guys think?

I think you haven't played around with the system enough.

Store generated common cures exist for at least a couple of poisons.  You can analyze those to get the tastes, as they are exactly the same for the crafted cures.

You can, and always have been able to, assess crafted mashes to see if they are a poison, if you have the appropriate skill to tell whether poison objects are poison.  The messages are exactly the same, making it easy to know which mashes are which poisons, if you know which poisons are which poisons.  Even if you do not have the poisoning skill, a mash + poison object will only produce a possible crafting result if the mash is the poison type of the poison object.

That basically leaves more advanced cures as the only things that have any difficulty at all to figure out by yourself.

[Pariah]

What do you guys think?

I think you haven't played around with the system enough.

Store generated common cures exist for at least a couple of poisons.  You can analyze those to get the tastes, as they are exactly the same for the crafted cures.

You can, and always have been able to, assess crafted mashes to see if they are a poison, if you have the appropriate skill to tell whether poison objects are poison.  The messages are exactly the same, making it easy to know which mashes are which poisons, if you know which poisons are which poisons.  Even if you do not have the poisoning skill, a mash + poison object will only produce a possible crafting result if the mash is the poison type of the poison object.

That basically leaves more advanced cures as the only things that have any difficulty at all to figure out by yourself.

This is so hard to talk about without spoiling and I'm probably just being dense and not getting it.

But how are you expected to find the poison/cure mashes for things that aren't the common cures when there is SOOOOO many herbs, are you just expected to try all the combinations of five herbs, like Herb a Herb b Herb c Herb d Herb e and then B F G H I and keep going till you figure it out? Seems like a lot of wasted herbs to make things taste like ash.

It seems like a metric ton of combinations for the handful of cures/poisons.

[Bloodpaint]

Just stop trying to get OOC info directly or indirectly, actually play the game, talk to other characters? Because it's so public there's no way to do it without affecting the whole game, if you have specific questions maybe make a request? It's really demoralizing to see this from veteran players, newbies are generally happy to explore and talk about this stuff IC, but it's like everyone seems just so demanding and any time anything new comes out there's people here or on chat trying to fish out a step-by-step or specifics

[Pariah]

Just stop trying to get OOC info directly or indirectly, actually play the game, talk to other characters? Because it's so public there's no way to do it without affecting the whole game, if you have specific questions maybe make a request? It's really demoralizing to see this from veteran players, newbies are generally happy to explore and talk about this stuff IC, but it's like everyone seems just so demanding and any time anything new comes out there's people here or on chat trying to fish out a step-by-step or specifics

Why are you so aggressive?  You do realize you can put your thoughts and feelings across in a way that doesn't come across so rude right?

I understand that's probably not your intention, but you gotta understand I'm not standing next to you listening to you say this with a smile or sarcastic tone in your voice, this is just raw text and it comes across as you just telling me to shut up instead of discussing something about the game.... On the discussion board.

[Bloodpaint]

I mean it genuinely, your posts are coming so often and fast it's like you aren't even doing anything about it with the game, just going about everything the wrong way it seems like? It's not just you either, I keep seeing this kind of thing over and over again - just give the game a chance instead of straight away going to ask stuff OOC? Why not have more of a sense of adventure?

[Pariah]

I mean it genuinely, your posts are coming so often and fast it's like you aren't even doing anything about it with the game, just going about everything the wrong way it seems like? It's not just you either, I keep seeing this kind of thing over and over again - just give the game a chance instead of straight away going to ask stuff OOC? Why not have more of a sense of adventure?

I'm actively playing the game as I type here.  There is a fine line between asking everyone you meet in character how to do something and it being intuitive, it's my view that the poison and cure system isn't intuitive so I'm discussing it.

[Bloodpaint]

Not everything has to be intuitive.

Not everything should be intuitive, even.

There's entire clans that are dedicated to this kind of stuff, it's an important part of the RP, especially with both cities open now - Trying to get it reduced to just simple instructions of what to do or solutions means you wouldn't be just robbing yourself, but ruin it for everyone else, too. This stuff can go on for a good part of a character, and it's interesting, at least the first time.

There's not many games like this, since it's more profitable to make everything easy... But a lot less fun. Saw this recently, looked cute: https://www.gog.com/en/game/strange_horticulture

[Hestia]

Enough of this sniping. If no one has anything more constructive to add to the conversation I'll close it. Last chance.

[ShaiHulud]

Just a little from me.
I spent a lot of time learning about old school brew and poisons.
I spent a lot of time learning about the last revamp of brewing and poisons.
I look forward to doing it again with the new.
I enjoy the ic discovery of these systems and how to roleplay them.
Done.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

I didn't get into the old systems of poisons. It seemed every single PC I met that wasn't a complete newb knew everything about them, from the bottom up, all the cures, and how to get the poisons. Investigating seemed pointless, and it was really hard getting the information from those hands.

Now, I'm in a system where very few know, except those who have put in the time and effort. While I'm sure that was the case last time, this time it feels like I have an advantage because of my OOC intelligence. Maybe I'm being selfish, or conceited, but I really want a chance to explore the new system. I like it so far, and the addition of preventative cures has made wilderness travel actually safer for my chars.

It didn't seem like there was an underlying physics to herbs and cures before. Now, it does, and even the tastes and smells seems to have something related to the poison it cures, and I like that. It feels like a ton of thought was put into it beforehand, and I really look forward to getting into them with some chars. If someone comes at me with some crazy poison, I'm much less likely to roll my eyes and think, 'Great, another one of these guys.'