Feedback on Idea Wanted: Role Based Guilds

[Dresan]

Oh I did not miss the infiltrator buff, Master does not equal max though. Still, at the worst they are equal on that point.

Based on the announcements from staff they should be equal.

Either way, as I said before I'm happy you like the changes. I just don't. There is a clearly difference in opinion and preference of play.

While there are some ideas that have been presented that could improve the current state of the classes, such as giving low level direction sense to everyone, I still feel the overall proposed solution is a nerf to the mundane experience.  I haven't read anything so far to change my mind. I think there have been enough big changes to the game for people to now realize people don't just move on and adapt, they just flat out leave and reverting stuff back after doesn't often bring people back.

That is however just my opinion, and since I've said my piece of the matter so I am not going to provide more feedback on this idea.

I am though going to just wish the staff and game luck and success in whatever they decide to do.

[Fredd]

Reposting giving Sticky Fingers City Hunt at Jman. Cause if the class changes go through, it will be a big skill they will be missing.

[Delirium]

I really want to respond to this but all three ideas being dropped in rapid succession is pretty overwhelming.

So I'm going to just sum up my feelings briefly in one place here.

1) Not in favor of skill-boosted subguilds. Leave that as a special app.
2) In favor of adjusting the subguilds, but not in favor of the skill mastery subguilds.
3) In favor of condensing the classes for stronger themes, but I have serious reservations about the first draft we have here.
   3a) I think it's a good start, though.

I would like to give more detailed feedback when real life obligations aren't slamming me.

Do you prefer feedback through the request tool or on the GDB? Some of my feedback may be code sensitive which is why I ask.

[Brokkr]

You can put in a request if you feel the feedback is sensitive.

This all will be open at least another couple of weeks, not in a rush.

[X-D]

Looked over the crafter classes again, I like them as posted, tribal maker seems cool enough to take even though I do not like crafters...heh.

Sticky fingers does need hunt....without it I would think the combat or at least parry/shield would need to increase to account for added risk.

I think both the melee classes should have greatly reduced ranged skills, If you feel balance is needed there, melee master could have say 5(point/percent, whichever is higher) higher disarm and bash...(yes, I know exactly how strong that would be raising the class skill max) And Melee hunter could get a medium level bash.

[Ammut]

Did no one else see there is a skill called

alcohal

In the skill list for the proposed guilds?

Is this your alcohol tolerance? The ability to craft alcohol? Did I miss some important announcement?

[Brokkr]

Alcohol tolerance.

[Lotion]

If these guilds were to actually be implemented then I'd love to see all of the crafting skills pre branched on the crafters

[Lotion]

crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

[Brytta Léofa]

crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

What's stupid about it? You pick some locks; then one day you're like, you know what, I could probably make one of these.

It does require some kind of interaction with the game world to get those first dozen picks, but pick is a disruptive skill and gating pick availability is how it's regulated.

[X-D]

Not to mention being a very easy branch considering the max.

[Delirium]

Not to mention being a very easy branch considering the max.

Yeah I'm okay with this kind of gatekeeping because it means you need to do at least a little outreach, make some contacts, etc before you can churn out lockpicks to your heart's content. Which means opportunities to get involved with (or beholden to) the local crime scene. Or, find someone else who isn't. Or, find a go-between. That's story & interaction right there.

[Ender]

Bringing back the advanced weapon skills has me very nervous, and having them be on only one of nine classes equally so.

This means a ton of items need to be reworked back into the old styles and/or a bunch of new weapons added to the game.  Melee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

[LindseyBalboa]

Bringing back the advanced weapon skills has me very nervous, and having them be on only one of nine classes equally so.

This means a ton of items need to be reworked back into the old styles and/or a bunch of new weapons added to the game.  Melee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

good point.

give agent 47 razors and knives or whatever.

give melee tribal tridents or pikes. etc.

spread advanced weapons out over the fighting guilds where it makes sense. pure melee could still have them all.

[Brokkr]

Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

[Fredd]

Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

The way combat works, AFAIK, is the concern.

If someone has a weapon you've never trained with and can't use, they get a large bonus against you, correct?


pssstt... Sticky fingers.... C Hunt....

[Ender]

Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

Twofold.  It's more variety of weapons for a single class to have that literally no other class would get.  And I thought it was confirmed by staff that being better a weapon category gives a character better defense against that weapon category.  Having that class be the only one that gets them gives the impression that they will have a massive advantage over all the other classes that do not have defenses against against them.

Also, why gate them behind branches and give them to only one class if they aren't special?  Making them so hard to get and only from one class gives the impression that they are soemthing special.

[Armaddict]

Melee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

Depends on implementation more than theory.  This is how it was previously, and Ranger was vastly preferred to warriors.  So were assassins.  At least as far as playing into the role.  Fact is, when you DO have role-based main classes, getting versatility out of a subclass is very different than getting -main- skills you want from a subclass.  Choosing a melee-master/slipknife will never afford the same amount of stealth as the primary class.  Unless the entire premise of subclasses changes away from versatility to main-class-level skills as well.  In which case I don't know what the point of the 'ideas' of reshuffling is.

There's no way in hell that every subclass should be looking to get every weapon skill for the sake of 'but people will get bonuses if I don't have it.'  Using that logic to limit a role is less based in play and more based in fear, and fear of creating a monster can be reasonable, as long as you remember that the monster can also be dialed back to being a loyal pet again.

[downer]

crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

What's stupid about it? You pick some locks; then one day you're like, you know what, I could probably make one of these.

It does require some kind of interaction with the game world to get those first dozen picks, but pick is a disruptive skill and gating pick availability is how it's regulated.

Because all the other crafter branching functions in a "OH!  I got really good at making this thing and now maybe know how to use it!"  Knifemaking branches Piercing Weapons.  Bowmaking branches Crossbow Use.  Fletchery branches Crossbow use.  Over and over again, knowing how to make something is what leads to how to use it through the crafterverse.

I acknowledge that the intent is to gate keep lockpicking.  I find that most of the people that need a good fucking with in Arm are probably behind a locked door.  As it stands Fence doesn't start with Pick making and never gets the ability to pick locks at all.  I think this in an excellent gate, they can make them and can never use them unless they take a sub.  Allowing for picks to make their way into the game world by requiring interaction with another player and not by knowing the secret of where to maybe find one if you're lucky is a massive improvement even if they make it annoying and the journey nonsensical.

[Patuk]

It's not even the worst part about fence's design, is the sad part. City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels. Fence is a class with skills you want to have up high at rather low levels, instead; dune trader, OTOH, starts with a bunch of wilderness skills that are in fact quite useful at its caps.

This is a tangent, but I don't like the proposed class ideas and I like what we have now, so please just let us keep the ones we have with some possible tweaks.

[Lotion]

City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

[mansa]

City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

NPCs don't attack shadows/blurs.

[Tisiphone]

City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

NPCs don't attack shadows/blurs.

To be pedantically clear:

PC population is what matters to whether the skill floor is high or not. NPCs don't care; they're code driven. Staff may animate to help bring the world to life, and we should always act in ways that take the virtual world into account, but this just reinforces the problem, since scrab #318 isn't part of an organization and doesn't try to secure turf and business.

Meanwhile in the city, PC density is (hopefully) much higher, room by room, and those (v)NPCs are much more likely to be part of some organization that cares about some kind of territorial poaching.

[Patuk]

City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

City skills on fence:

sneak, hide, peek, poisoning, sleight of hand, steal, listen, crossbows

Dune trader wilderness skills:

ride, skinning, dsense, scan, archery, crossbows, listen

Fence, plainly, doesn't benefit from that many of its skills. Low advanced sneak/hide is nice, but mostly good for NPC purposes. Peek at that low a cap is garbage, and so are sleight of hand, steal, and poisoning: you will be spotted/fail so damn often that the skills are functionally useless at those levels. Jman crossbows also are terribly unreliable, which is a bigger deal in (the PVP heavy) cities than out innawoods.

I'll grant that city listen is nice for eavesdropping. Good luck finding other criminals who'll talk while you're at another table though.

Advanced ride is a skill that's much more plainly useful: you zip around the desert faster, don't topple off your mount when a kagor sees you, you might even get to ride with a shield in your hand or both hands on a spear for added defence. Dsense, likewise, works pretty damn well at low advanced, and is a skill that is lovely to have at any level. This is also true for skinning, and it's EVEN more true on a heavy crafter, which is going to want to be able to split up carcasses/bones; I have genuinely seen fence-class PCs complain a damn ton over not being able to do it themselves and pay more money for having hunters do so, just because. Wilderness scan at low advanced lets you spot the likes of jozhal and tandu; I grant that wilderness listen isn't great. That leaves us with crossbows and archery, which are nicer outside than inside: you can afford to shoot non-predatory game and have them flee a bit, in a way that missing in the cities is much more of an acute problem.

Imo, if anything, replace one of fence's least useful skills with climb. I can kinda see why it doesn't get skinning, but raider/enforcer-tier climb is inoffensive enough of an addition that it won't wildly unbalance the class, and both cities have plenty opportunity for a fence to practice them. I doubt many will mind to see poisoning get snipped from their skillset, and likewise peek/steal just aren't viable at those low levels.

[Brytta Léofa]

Advanced steal and peek are fine for stealing coins from NPCs.