Feedback on Idea Wanted: Role Based Guilds

[Patuk]

By the time your fence has both skills at advanced, you're not out there stealing the paltry coin NPCs carry. This holds doubly true now that the night is pitch black 80% of the time inside both cities.

[Bogre]

It seems like the ones proposed are just a hugely buffed fighter, and then nerfed enforcer, raider, infiltrator somewhat molded into assassin, miscreant, pilferer given the old pickpocket poor loadout, and then scout, stalker nerfed.

It seems rather lopsided, and a return to the old classes. '

Prefer the current system.

If it wanted to be trimmed, there could be a couple classes melded together. Stalker/Scout, Pilferer/Miscreant, Laborer/Craftsperson.

[Fredd]

Advanced steal and peek are fine for stealing coins from NPCs.

Throw in half decent hide, and it's good against players too.

Old Burglar only had Adv. Steal. And I picked ALL YALL'S pockets.

[X-D]

I am sitting here looking at "Agent 47" And thinking back to some of the past powerhouse assassins...And wondering if any of those players are still about and would like to chime in with what they could do with that skillset. Without a sub even.

second look at melee crafter, Soldier with crafting. viable with many clans and tribes, just pick a sub dependent on that...I mean, I admit, I would likely pick a scan sub, but would depend on my intent.

I also cannot help but wonder if many of the people that are dead set against this idea have also noticed that all of these classes actually make the current magick subs viable. It is no secret I consider most of the magick subs not viable at best. But I could see any of them working with any of these proposed classes...and working well.

[Veselka]

I would flatten pick/pick making for Criminal Maker only.

Force Agent 47 and Sticky Fingers to seek out criminal makers for picks. Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them. It also tightens the funnel for picks and where they come from.

As currently listed, Agent 47 branches both pick and pick making from sleight of hand, which is a very low risk skill to train to master. I would venture that at minimum, they should branch pick making at a high skill of pick, or need to rely on fences/Criminal Makers to get them their illegal goods.

[X-D]

Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them

Um...yes, it does.

I started learning smithcraft 40 years ago, I did so with tools purchased...my best hammers and tongs are the ones I made myself.

My best rakes and picks are also ones I made or designed myself and contracted others to make.

Knowing how to use a tool is EXACTLY what it takes to design/make a good tool.

Hell, My power hammer, Forge and press are all my own design and craft.

I mean ALL craftsmen make own tools, Farriers, roofers, mechanics...I mean ALL of them.

[Fredd]

Force Agent 47 and Sticky Fingers to seek out criminal makers for picks. Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them. It also tightens the funnel for picks and where they come from.

No. for a few reasons.

1: The picks you make at jman pick making are opening middle ranged doors only. So you are already seeking out criminal makers for picks that can actually open the doors you want to open, and don't break so quickly.

2: Without the ability to make their own picks, sticky fingers will essentially be pickpockets with extra skills. And no one really liked pickpockets. (i did, but beside the point)

3: We don't need to do a pick bottleneck again. It used to be REALLY bad. "Amos branched pick? kill him, he's moving in on my slice of the pie." (this used to be a meme for us, if you don't remember.)

[JBlack]

I like things as they are with the diversity of having 15 guilds. It is much harder to meta what someone is.

Rather than toning it down to 9 guilds and upsetting a lot of the playerbase by taking away some things that people enjoy, I'd say focus on making the other guilds better. All of the recent changes I've liked, since you've already done this by adding scan and other things to guilds that very much deserved them. This has been well received. Even then, people will gravitate towards the "best" of the skillsets because that's what they generally want to do rather than be a jack of trades.

Here is what I propose:
1) Buff Soldier, giving it a low master in weapon skills.
2) *Nerfs to Miscreants*: make parry branch from throw, make pick branch from steal, make sneak branch from hide, and for the love of all that's holy, reduce their forage to Journeyman. Remove miscreant brewing.
3) Return Customcrafts to All who get "Master" proficiency in a skill, allowing craftperson/adventurer/Pilferer to contribute to game items and mastercrafts
4) Give Stalker Low Master Bow Use
5) Give Laborer Master Pilot, Give Laborer Skinning that branches from Forage, Give Laborer a mount skill

While we're never getting rangers back, Miscreant is like the new "City Ranger." They get everything they need to succeed and then some. They're overdue for nerfs, and anyone who says otherwise likely enjoys playing a powerful inventory elementalist miscreant. Even right out the box, their potential to troll and PK is vast in the hands of a decent, knowledgeable player.

Rather than take classes and things away, I'd rather see mostly positive changes that'd make the current guilds more playable and appealing to all, and have a few more branches or appealing skills to the bunch we have. I do love that this has been opened to the public discussion and realm of talks, and I think we'd always benefit from listening to what players like and dislike about certain aspects of the game and why.

I like some of the current propositioned, especially with the sticky fingers and master melee, yet I'd like to hear more proposals on how to make the "Least Played Options" of the existing classes better and consider that instead of reducing to 9.

[JBlack]

I want to add that the reason I'm suggesting so many penalties to Miscreants is they've completely changed the game dynamic. No one even gets apartments in Allanak anymore. Look at how many places are open in the Gaj and in the other housing. It's desolate, and you know why? They're basically places to put stuff in that you want to disappear.

That's an unfun mechanic that hasn't really added much to the game world. With the current ease of access to picks from fence, and other things, it's no problem getting your hands on the criminal tools you need to succeed.

If we keep the current arrangement, fence *must* be changed to be more like criminal maker, and there needs to be "gates" in the way of Miscreant so they can't just immediately pop in and start housewrecking. Please consider this.

[stoicreader]

Fewer classes are the way to go for new players. Staff idea for 9 classes is exactly right!

It's called the "rule of 3" which is: unless you want someone hopelessly confused, offer no more than 3 options.

If you combined the rule of three, with an automatic generator for description and background, then curious people can get their feet wet without drowning.

So 3 origins, 3 focuses = nine classes
Then at character creation give the first three options:

Adventurer - citizen - criminal
Type help adventurer for more information.

Violence - environment - trade
Type help violence for more information

When they type help here are examples of house to explain it.

Do you want a wilderness character who will likely die, but you'll have fun? This would involve being outdoors, dangerous travel, and exploration.

Do you want a sneaky criminal character who will likely die, but you'll have fun? This involves being able to participate in theft, murder,  espionage or smuggling. Your character can be a grubby pickpocket, or by dressing well appear like any other person. In Armageddon, nobody can guess your class by looking at you.

Do you want a city character who will likely die but have fun? This class is the one to pick if you want the very best skills for success in city life. If you're interested in political intrigue, City wide plots, and maximum involvement with the most active clans. Of the three, citizens have the easiest time of survival.

Do you want a character who uses violence as their chief tool of survival, having this advantage above the rest?

Do you want a character who is a master of their environment, surviving by their surroundings and their wit?

Do you want a character who uses trade and bringing people together? Making things with unique designs and recipes.

[Halaster]

... with the exception that I would greatly like custom crafting to be more widely available. I'd love for it to be possible at multiple skill-levels, too, as I adore shitty little Jman level crafts in the theme of the game

I wouldn't because more widely available means more work.  We have an INSANE amount of objects already in the game, more variety than you'll ever want.  There's also systems in place to customize items like those NPC's in Allanak where you can specify color, material, etc.  IMO we don't need more custom crafting than we already have.

[Veselka]

Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them

Um...yes, it does.

I started learning smithcraft 40 years ago, I did so with tools purchased...my best hammers and tongs are the ones I made myself.

My best rakes and picks are also ones I made or designed myself and contracted others to make.

Knowing how to use a tool is EXACTLY what it takes to design/make a good tool.

Hell, My power hammer, Forge and press are all my own design and craft.

I mean ALL craftsmen make own tools, Farriers, roofers, mechanics...I mean ALL of them.

Yes it can, which is the important distinction. They /can/ make their own tools. That doesn't necessarily mean they do. I applaud you being a smith and having the know how to make all those things.

As a craftsperson myself, I don't know how to make a chisel, but I use them every day. I don't know how to make a cast-iron C clamp, but I use it every day. I don't know how to build a guitar, but I repair them every day.

I /could/ learn how to make them, but just because I'm very skilled in using tools doesn't mean I have the know how to make them.

From a game balance standpoint, it would also make sense to not have every criminal class have/branch pick making and pick, but to separate them somewhat. Some get both. Some get one or the other.

[Dresan]

Sigh. The idea is already suggesting removing enforcer, there is no reason to gimp the combat potential of the infiltrator to third rate on top of that. There are some of us who like to play criminal classes that don't  plan on backstabing/sapping every second aide we see. It was one of the selling points of infiltrators that they would have an easier time in other roles other than just killing merchant.

Instead of agent, consider the role/name of melee killer or just dirty fighter.

At the very least there is no reason agent should only have journeyman bash, if anything you should give them high advance bash and give hunter melee high advance kick. Either raise agent's combat skills like two handed, parry and dual wield to melee hunter levels, or set melee hunter (and agent) combat skills levels back down to infiltrator/scout rate. In terms of straight fights warrior will always win thanks to disarm alone, even more so if you plan on melee hunter and agent learning at light combat class levels of learning, I think it should be fine keeping straight combat ability roughly equal for both. Its not like agent will perform as well as melee hunter with max ride/charge in the wilderness.  Not to mention future changes to poison may make advanced forage/ max skin much more valuable.

Agents should also branch the watch skill to advanced rather than the search skill, feels like searching for stuff like passage ways would be more miscreant domain where as agents would be watching their targets.

Finally, for agent consider setting the class stat bonuses to both strength and agility. That way its easier to play the class in more than one way, this will be especially helpful for those that enjoyed the enforcer style of class instead of agility based classes.

[Fredd]

Sigh. The idea is already suggesting removing enforcer, there is no reason to gimp the combat potential of the infiltrator to third rate on top of that. There are some of us who like to play criminal classes that don't  plan on backstabing/sapping every second aide we see. It was one of the selling points of infiltrators that they would have an easier time in other roles other than just killing merchant.

Instead of agent, consider the role/name of melee killer or just dirty fighter.

At the very least there is no reason agent should only have journeyman bash, if anything you should give them high advance bash and give hunter melee high advance kick. Either raise agent's combat skills like two handed, parry and dual wield to melee hunter levels, or set melee hunter (and agent) combat skills levels back down to infiltrator/scout rate. In terms of straight fights warrior will always win thanks to disarm alone, even more so if you plan on melee hunter and agent learning at light combat class levels of learning, I think it should be fine keeping straight combat ability roughly equal for both. Its not like agent will perform as well as melee hunter with max ride/charge in the wilderness.  Not to mention future changes to poison may make advanced forage/ max skin much more valuable.

Agents should also branch the watch skill to advanced rather than the search skill, feels like searching for stuff like passage ways would be more miscreant domain where as agents would be watching their targets.

Finally, for agent consider setting the class stat bonuses to both strength and agility. That way its easier to play the class in more than one way, this will be especially helpful for those that enjoyed the enforcer style of class instead of agility based classes.

Very valid point. Enforcer honestly freels like a pretty healthy class for places like the rinth.

[stoicreader]

Staff are really good at their job. They won't gimp anything

[Fredd]

honestly. After talking it over, i like our classes. The subs need to be adjusted, absolutely. And new 1 karma options put in to replace that utility.

But yeah. I dig our setup mostly.

[Lotion]

role based guilds is inherently bad because it requires the designer of the guilds to preconceive every possible role and then fit them all into a small finite number of guilds

the current guilds allow players to imagine what they would need to do as a specific role and then pick a guild+sub combination to match and encourage a lot of creativity.

here's a few fun combinations:
raider+slipknife in the rinth
scout+master armorcrafter
laborer + grebber/outdoorsman

[Armaddict]

I've been very quiet here, considering how much I rant about classes.  I still have very little in the way of -specifics-, which might be what you're after.  But the reason I've been quiet is because the last couple weeks, my time spent on Armageddon has had some...hiccups in my traditional way of thought, because it's essentially too 'closed' and demanding too much of my own way.  With that in mind, I've kind of had a change of heart regarding classes.  Not as in 'I love them the way they are', but in the way I am analyzing them.  Sorry, Brokkr (in particular, but also anyone else I've been engaging heatedly about it), for all my aggression with it.

You have two threads up.  This is meant to reply to both of them.  My realization is that I don't actually hate the classes themselves, but I hate the way that the interaction of class/subclass goes.  If I can try to describe a concept, this is kind of the way that I think I'd actually be really pleased, without having to revert classes entirely to role-based.

My problem with the new classes has been that they're just so chock-full of skills.  They blur the lines between roles, which may or may not be bad.  They make a lot of subclasses redundant.  They make the choices pretty easy to meta-out, and not actually that...interesting.  So here is my idea of how classes, as they are, could be changed to try and accomplish the same thing as role-based classes presented here (which I still approve of and generally like the ideas talked about in this thread):

Top level classes (i.e. combat heavy):  Remove or greatly lower the cap of the utility skills, i.e. sneak/hide, hunt, etc.  But keep the combat-skills oriented with it.  For Enforcer, that would mean low sneak, probably no hide, but keeping sap and backstab at high levels, as well as the criminal-like weapon based combat skills.  Overall, this IS a nerf to the main class.  I believe most main classes would be nerfed.  For Raider, that would mean low sneak or no sneak, probably no hide, but high charge/trample, high throw, middling archery, etc.
Middle combat classes (i.e. infiltrator, scout):  Middle of the road, of course.  They get higher caps on utility skills, lower caps on combat skills, do not receive as many combat skills, and receive utility-crafting related to their area.  Each of them also loses one entire weapon skill, i.e. Infiltrator loses chopping weapons, scout loses slashing weapons, etc.  They are the balance.
Low combat classes (i.e. Miscreant, stalker):  High utility skills.  All of the utility skills involved in their area.  They only have 2 weapon skills.  Their combat is more based around preparation and indirect combat than direct combat.  That means stalker doesn't have charge and trample, but they do have high archery.  That means miscreant doesn't have backstab or sap, but they do have high throw and poisoning.  This tier likely branches parry instead of starting with it.
Crafting classes:  Middling utility skills (enough to be useful, though).  All the crafting skills in their area, and even a couple from outside of their area.  They receive -1- weapon skill, capping in middling journeyman (which is high enough for most pve, but not to be beasts).  All of them should be able to custom craft, but with some bigger limitations than the custom crafter.  They also ALL receive the tools they would need for travel, regardless of criminal or desert.  These guys can always get around, they will always be able to find a place to sell goods.  They are never 'stuck' in their area.

There are, of course, a myriad of other skills to discuss in specifics, but again, this is more about concept.  If both players AND staff like this sort of thing, then I could go into nitpicky detail, but right now, I'm thinking...more conceptually, than anything. 

You'll also notice I wasn't discussing the city/general classes; I always get a little weirded out by this column, honestly, because most roles in the game are pretty strictly either city or desert.  So that was what I was thinking for this column; make it the only one non-specialized for either.  They do not lose weapon skills as they go down the tiers; they are just generally -better- at combat.  They receive no sneaks or hides, but they -always- have skinning and direction sense, as well as either scan or listen or both.  They -always- have crafting skills that are pertinent to sustaining themselves.  -Only- the custom crafter truly custom crafts, and -only- the custom crafter gets -all- of those desirable crafting skills that any clan would want.

The goal here is not just to nerf things.  I know that nerfs always upset people.  But what I'm looking for is the choice of subclass to be a much larger deal.  Those top tier combat classes lost their utility, so Enforcers would probably very often take something like slipknife, or cutpurse, or rogue...but they don't -have- to.  They could just want the heavy city combat skills, but take a riding subclass, or a wilderness subclass, or a crafter subclass.  Maybe the dune trader would take aggressor so that they have slashing weapons, or they might cross-craft by taking a criminal crafting subclass, or be their tribe's chef, etc.  The goal is that to truly be -specialized and fully competent in all areas of their column-, you will require both class and subclass to be within that area (as opposed to now; despite different skill caps, all of the classes in a column are completely competent in their area, and the main difference comes in player versus player interactions or starting combat levels).

I hope that makes sense.  I'm always rambly.  But this has been pretty steadily on my mind the last few days, about how hard I've been pushing for the role-based classes despite how many people like the new ones, when really all I'm looking for is for the class/subclass combo to be both -necessary- AND versatile.

Edited to add:  I wanted to note, one consistent thought I had through all this...it would be really -good- if we had armor proficiencies to create definition in these areas.  Light armor allows for agility to take a greater impact in combat.  Medium armor is versatile, allowing for bonuses to utility skills.  Heavy armor reduces encumbrance of worn heavy armors.  Something along those lines.  You'd be able to see a lot different combinations made based off of those decisions.  Imagine how different it would be if ONLY the general column could receive heavy armor proficiency, and how that would make competition via subclasses for characters to choose from.  Imagine how much more appealing it could be for a heavy general combat class to be able to compete with the heavy combat for both desert and city based off of subclass by just being the real actual -tank- of combat.

Also to note, I realize that the above is largely very similar to what we've already done with these classes, but I'm trying to pound in that definition.  Lots of it is based around the prevalence or complete absence of scan, listen, sneak, hide, and for many, direction sense.  A lot of it is me saying 'Don't even let them have that.  That's a subclass decision for that class, not a thing they just get because it fits in.'  Basically, extremize each of these classes into their niche of their area, rather than blurring it.

[Dresan]

The current classes might have gone too far but that doesn't mean the proposed idea is the best solution to that problem.

The wilderness classes in particular are really amazing, this is compounded by the fact that there were multiple good subclasses they could choose from to round themselves off completely. Slipknife, cutpurse and rogue were solid choices. This is not even mentioning any magickal subclass. In comparison the city classes solider and fighter struggled from day one. It was not like fighter was bad but compared to the raider with utility like ride, climb, scan,charge  it didn't come even close.  Enforcer is in a worse spot, basically if you wanted to get the most out of enforcer you needed to pick bounty hunter/cutpurse which you lose a lot of additional utility, otherwise its up to chance whether you'll ever branch sap/backstab. Infiltrator was gimped as well until they recently buffed them. Wilderness is a heavy part of this game, that many popular clans partake in and the option for ride are basically vanilla compared to city subclass options.

Thus, its no surprise to me raiders, stalkers, miscreants are very popular. This is an RP game that takes a lot of time and effort to squeeze out some enjoyment from, and that enjoyment for your effort invested is not even guaranteed. The game doesn't always respect the time the players invest in it.  People don't just min-max to to win armageddonmud, they do it so that can have a chance to have the most fun, coded power and/or utility is just one of the ways to ensure you get the most out of your time investment.

My main problem with the proposed ideas is that it goes too far in the opposite direction, narrowing the scope of what classes can do while at the same time not really seeming to take into account options the game world offers players. For example, sticky finger combat is nerfed compared to miscreant, it makes it much harder to play a miscreant in the byn with a riding class or in one of the many combat clans in the game that goes out riding as part of its activities. That a huge loss compared to the current miscreant. Bow hunter lost blow_gun use meaning even if they pick a city subguild they have a harder time playing the part of assassin, like we currently can.

And to be fully clear, by loss I mean less variety and fun for players to experience.   There just has to be a better way to balance these classes that provide more than just one way of playing them. This is why I would rather keep the classes we currently have, despite its obvious faults, because there is a lot more variety and replay value in them.  There is also good chance things will not work as intended when this is first implemented, and it took such a long time for infiltrators to get buffed because staff refused to acknowledge that people don't like to invest hours and hours of our time just to lose our character because of sub-par stealth.

All that said, the only thing i really want to see implemented in apprentice direction sense for every class but there is another thread for that.

[LindseyBalboa]

as someone who did not play old classes, i am fine with the classes as they are. sub guilds need more work than main guilds. just because a few of the main classes aren't used as often doesn't mean anything is broken.

I've played maybe two fighters. I'll probably play another at some point. I've thought about playing adventurer, and I probably will at some point. I don't like crafting so I don't play the crafters but if I did I'd probably try them out eventually, as I've been through the heavy, light, and 'utility' combat classes. It's good to have options.

A way bigger problem to me as a newbie was just the names of them making it confusing as hell. Like do I have to be a bounty hunter to have bounty hunter? If I pick raider does that mean I'm a raider? I started and stopped a few times.

[mansa]

I have looked over the proposal, and made an excel file for it:
( https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304236792750538752/992143402995028128/New_Classes_Proposal.xlsx )
::NOTE - mistake in spreadsheet, I forgot to add THROW to stickyfingers ::


I'm approaching the overall design of the classes from this principal:

And from the Assumption that Melee Hunter is a mixture of "Raider/Scout" and Agent 47 is a mixture of "Enforcer/Infiltrator", and Tribal Maker is a mixture of "Adventurer/Dune Trader" and Criminal Maker is a mixture of "Pilferer/Fence".


Let's get started!

Melee Master should get Bandagemaking, because they know how to take care of their own body.  They should also get the pain tolerance perk.

Agent 47 seems okay.  Maybe pain tolerance perk?

Melee Hunter should have Crossbow Use at advanced.  They get up close to animals, and should be able to shoot them with a crossbow.
Melee Hunter should get Threaten at advanced.  They are the old 'Raiders', basically.
Melee Hunter poisoning should be advanced from journeyman.

Stickyfingers should have Crossbow Use at advanced.  They would use crossbows to poison people with their bolts from the same room, or one room away, but they wouldn't use archery.
Stickyfingers should have Throw at advanced.  Same reason as Crossbow Use. I made a mistake in my spreadsheet, and it does get throw.
Stickyfingers should have Scan at master, since they are experts at hiding, they should know how to look for people that are hiding.   I hated Burglar so much because it didn't have scan.  Hated it.
Stickyfingers should have Brew at journeyman, since they have poisoning at journeyman.  Brew allows you to detect the basic ingredients of most cures, which is super important for poisoning.
Stickyfingers should have pick making at Advanced.  When pick making is at journeyman, you fail 8 out of 10 crafts.

Bow Hunter should have Blowgun Use.   It goes with the theme of hunting beasts in the wilderness and sneaking up on them.
Bow Hunter should have Search.  None of the "wilderness" classes have "Search" except tribal maker, and that was a push from the playerbase to get it added to the 'explorer' playerstypes.

Melee Crafter should have Guarding, because it's missing from a 'soldier' type character - which would be melee hunter/melee master/bow hunter.  Why does bow hunter have guarding if melee crafter doesn't?

Criminal Maker should have Flee at Journeyman, because Tribal Maker has it at Advanced, and both need to run away somewhat successfully.
Criminal Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they know how to use a knife in a pinch.
Criminal Maker should have Climb at Advanced instead of Apprentice, because Pilferer used to have it at Advanced.

Tribal Maker should have Crossbow Use at Journeyman.  It's an underused skill overall, and I liked how everybody gets it currently.
Tribal Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they know how to use a spear in a pinch.
Tribal Maker should have Climb at Advanced instead of Apprentice, because Adventurer had it at Advanced.

Faire Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they would know how to use a knife.  They do have skinning now, so they know the basics of stabby stabby.

[Fredd]

IDC that much if sticky fingers lose scan. (it's nice don't get me wrong)

But the lose of Hunt is absolutely brutal.

[Nao]

Stickyfingers looks pretty bad overall, they lose to a miscreant in every way.

They also, absolutely need scan. They're experts at city hide (however you visualize or roleplay that - blending in, hiding in plain sight, hiding behind a curtain), but they're somehow, at the same time, completely oblivious to someone else doing that? That would just be odd and ridiculous.

[X-D]

Melee master bandage making, No, Bandage at better then average is fine, Making, Take a sub, or get a friend.
Pain Tol perk, sure. And again, I would take all ranged skills other then throw from them. BUT, I would give them even higher parry and shield skill.


Sticky fingers does need Hunt...I mean that is a basic skill for that type and not having it is a MAJOR nerf, IMO.
High scan, I am fine with as well.
Crossbow...No, Sub if you want it.

Melee hunter On the other hand, I do not think should get any of the suggestions...This is something that if you wanted some of them, There are subs, or get a friend.
In fact, As I said before, I would take archery off of melee hunter, along with fletchery and sling and instead give them a high level sap, Maybe just a few below Agent.
So, remove any ranged skill other then throw, also remove fletchery, Give low master sap and maybe master blowgun and My bet is this class will be in the top 3 taken.

Bow hunter.....Search...sure.
Blowgun...Um...On one hand, because it is such a weak skill, I think Alright...But on the other hand, I am not really seeing it as thematic. I would be more agreeable to melee hunter getting blowgun since it is an up close and personal skill.

I am fine with all the maker suggestions from Mansa.

(EDIT)

Also, we should be looking at how these classes compliment each other along with go against each other.

Back in the day, a good ranger would have a good warrior friend, A good assassin would often have a burgler friend.
Thinking of these things is why I am less likely to give skills that cross lines or make a class too good.

I would rather have you make a choice. Do you want bandage making and not need a medic buddy OR do you want to fling lightning bolts?

[Dresan]

I like your diagram mansa. I think people are too fixated with old definitions of combat, ranged attacks and poison. Poison in particular may change in the future.

1. On the topic of Melee combat

To start us off we'll begin with what Melee master should be getting:
- Old heavy combat levels of combat learning
-Only class that gets disarm
-str and endurance class bonuses at creation
-highest levels of melee combat skills (eg parry, shield_use, etc)

Max level Disarm alone makes this class freaking impossible to beat 1v1, even with sap or backstab its still a potential hail mary play to try to kill these guys with high priority endurance. It doesn't matter if second tier classes get advanced level disarm fom a subclass or even low master combat skill, at some point that becomes useless against a melee master, not even taking into account its greater ability to learn. Thus:

• Agent and Melee hunter should have similar levels of combat ability and learning speed, at light combat class levels or higher. It doesn't matter if they are low master or high advanced, they won't be better than melee master as long as they don't get MAX level disarm. They each have their own areas of strength which the other can't compete in easily.


• Melee hunter should get low master ripose and hack branching off parry or something simple enough to train to compliment max level ride/charge.


• Melee hunter shouldn't get bash, but they should get kick at high advance levels


• Agent should get high advanced bash


• Melee combat for sticky fingers/bow hunter/melee crafter should be similar to miscreant/stalker/laborer

2. On the topic of ranged combat.

There is short ranged combat and long ranged combat. Melee master should be the worse off in ranged combat, light combat classes should be the best at short ranged combat and mixed classes should be good at long ranged combat.

• Melee master should be poor at both, only having high advanced throw, crossbow and archery.
• Agent should get low master crossbow use while Melee hunter would get low master archery
• Both Agent and Melee hunter would get MAX level throw
• Agent would get MAX blow_gun use
• sticky fingers would MAX crossbow_use while bow hunter would get Max archery
• Both sticky fingers and bow hunter would get high advanced blowgun_use and throw

3. On the topic of poisons.

Again poisons may change in the future. The ability to apply poisons will not necessarily trump the ability to acquire them. Wilderness classes should have an easier time getting poison, but harder time applying it.

Thus:

• Both agent MAX poison, sticky fingers should get low master poison
• melee hunter low advanced poison while bow hunter should get high advanced poison
• melee hunter and bow hunter should high MAX levels of forage and skin making it easier to acquire poison, while criminal classes have easier time applying it
• On brew, sticky fingers should get Max Master brew, bow hunter low master and agent high advanced (these value would be the same if we get poison making)

Finally I agree with sticky fingers getting hunt, but I want to see agent geta high levels of watch.