Feedback on Idea Wanted: Role Based Guilds

[Brokkr]

Last in the Feedback Trilogy.

When the 15 guilds went in, the idea was a spread of skills getting away from traditional role based classes to something that blurred the lines, allowing players to define their own roles beyond the traditional.  I'm not sure it worked out that way, and we have certainly gotten mixed feedback on how well blurring those lines worked.

Like the other feedback threads, no decision to change guilds has been made, but we'd like some feedback.  I've mocked up guilds based on defined roles, cutting them down to nine.  Nevermind the names, they are hopefully obviously not serious, I just don't know that we can reuse guilds, may have to come up with new ones and names.

• Melee Master - Hands down best in Melee combat
• Agent 47 - Oriented towards killing quickly and silently
• Melee hunter - Like an ancient Egyptian Pharoah, you hunt down your prey and stick it with your spear
• Melee Crafter - Can fight and make things, but not at the same time
• Sticky Fingers - Otherwise known as elves, can steal everything not nailed down and some of that as well
• Bow Hunter - Great at hunting from range, mediocre up close, great live off the land type making what they need
• Faire Maker - Never know what you are going to find, they seem to be able to make just about anything
• Criminal Maker - Otherwise known as the accomplice, makes city/criminal stuff, pretty good perception/stealth
• Tribal Maker - Can make stuff useful to their tribe and has skills allowing them to traverse the wilderness

If a skill name is in red, it means that the skill is at the maximum level possible across all guilds that get that skill.  If the below is too small, you can visit https://imgur.com/a/Q7Bi1MO

[mansa]

Most of the skills are set up the way I expected them to be, if you're going from 15 to 9 classes.

I would have put poisoning to advanced for stickyfingers, and poisoning to journeyman for Criminal Maker
Stickyfingers requires scan at advanced or higher.


I would have given leatherworking to Melee Crafter, but cap it at advanced  (after branching from tanning)

[Gentleboy]

I like the way it's set up currently with a class type in each environment. I worry a lot of the variety in main class and subclass will be taken out. I love playing a traveling type raider with a crafting subclass, so I can do something and strive to collect things in my free time. If we were to do this, I would pick melee and then pick an outdoor class and not have my silly little hobby. I think the ones offered are too on the nose with little flexibility and most will not choose a subclass with crafting but, one that will round out their character for survivability in the different environments. And that's okay, but, saps out some of the variety in characters and the niches.

[betweenford]

More fond of the current guilds than what's listed, personally. Whole lot more stuff and flexibility for certain concepts, especially for stuff where you're playing a blend of crafter and survivalist.

But as far as rating this as though it would be implemented as is... I feel like Agent-47 could probably take more of a hit to sneak/hide as far as game balance would be concerned. Even a lower-end Master level seems a bit much for me? More incentive there for him to take a sneaky sub, or to lose out on better sneak in favor of picking grebber or something.

[Brokkr]

Preferring the current setup is entirely valid.

Agent 47 would be a lot more in the direction of the old Assassin.

I guess I should have said, very roughly melee combat ability in order is sort of:

Melee Master
Melee Hunter
Agent 47 / Melee Crafter
Bow Hunter
Sticky Fingers
3 Makers roughly equally want to avoid a fight

[Brytta Léofa]

Brokkr, dunno if you have the info in this format but it would be really useful to somehow compare these to the closest existing classes.

I'm a big fan of the existing class setup, though I think some of the least-used classes could go away. Raider, scout, stalker, and miscreant at least are so solid.

[Delirium]

The classes need condensing but I'm not sold on this first draft of how to do so.

I don't have the spoons for further feedback. I'll try tomorrow.

[Riev]

You had me at advanced weapons, baby.

I'm all for a condensing. I do like the idea of still needing other people for things, but this FEELS more like "How do you earn a living". Are you a bow hunter? A maker? A criminal?

As opposed to the subclasses which always felt like how you earn a living, to supplement your natural abilities.

I would choose melee master with Boosting Subguild every time and not feel bad about it. Give me my knife weapons and Close Quarters Combat (can subdue mid-combat for a pre-lag that prevents you from swinging)

[Brokkr]

Brokkr, dunno if you have the info in this format but it would be really useful to somehow compare these to the closest existing classes.

I'm a big fan of the existing class setup, though I think some of the least-used classes could go away. Raider, scout, stalker, and miscreant at least are so solid.

I'd have to put it together.  The trick is, compare what to what?

Agent 47 to Enforcer or to Infiltrator? Melee Hunter to Raider or Scout? Etc.

[Lotion]

I believe many of the existing guilds are already very solid and some of the existing ones should be somewhat reworked. Creating a kit of skills with the intent for players to use that kit for a specific purpose means that you are inadvertently limiting the kinds of things people are able to do. I'd rather instead consider why certain main guilds are really underutilized and how they can be reworked or improved.

I think removing sucky branching would go a long way to that measure. Dune trader's tentmaking->clothworking or adventurer's flee->parry come to mind. Also if pilferer somehow got access to poisoning (which both miscreant and fence have) would be nice.

[Nao]

These seem to go very much back in the direction of the old guilds. I like the 'feel' of having these archetypes back - warrior, assassin, pickpocket, two sorts of rangers, three types of merchants, and a crafter/fighter mix on top of that.

I also really, really like the flexibility that the current guilds offer. My playtimes suck and the way I deal with that is making a character, then deciding what to do with that PC afterwards, depending on where I find other active players. At first glance, I assumed that some of that flexibility would get lost with the classes proposed here, but I don't think that's actually the case. The 'Criminal Maker' seems to be both a better criminal and a better crafter than the current hybrid class (pilferer).

It seems like the assassins/Agent47 will be the new "masters of pick making" since they're the only ones that don't face the chicken-egg problem of needing access to lock picks to branch pick making. That seems a bit weird (why not give that to the criminal crafters), but it could work regardless.

Melee hunters shouldn't have to branch sling use. It's a very basic, accessible skill, let them branch throw instead.

I'm not a fan of bringing the advanced weapon skills back, they sucked and were removed for a reason.

Riposte should go the way of the kank and advanced weapon skills - it punishes an attacker for having good offense/weapon skills because they get parried instead of dodged. 

[Gentleboy]

It would be cool if the different races had different role choices as well. But, I know that is a lot of work. A lot. So, I don't expect that to happen.

[X-D]

Alright, Balancing these....

Melee master should get only ranged skills at any real level that can directly relate to...Melee.

SO...Archery and crossbow, I think they should not get or get to rather low levels (Middle JM at best). Maybe sling to advanced and throw to advanced or low master as having rock/knife/spear in hand and being able to throw at fleeing or advancing foe does make sense for "melee master".
I Also think that though bandage makes sense...middle advanced at best, Can he slap a bandage on because of all the weapons training, Yes, is he a doctor...Um...no.
I would cut guard in half but leave rescue master.
Otherwise looks alright.

Agent-47
Over all looks fine.

Melee hunter.
Mostly alright. I would reduce guard and rescue levels I think, Well, maybe reduce guard only slightly, outdoors combat types have a higher need of guard so would train it, Lower rescue to usable but not near master. I see that hide and sneak are not red, so master but not max level...should be fine.

Makers all look fine to me....Though I sort of wonder if there needs to be 3 types when you take into account sub classes...Don't know.

Melee crafter.
Again, too many ranged skills at too high of a level, Pick one, put it at max advanced. I would likely raise guard and rescue on this class...low master.

Sticky fingers.
This one looks fine, and likely an often picked class for many style of PCs when you consider possible subs.

Bow hunter.
Firstly I would lower or remove guard and rescue altogether. Leaning towards remove. I would also lower blind fighting to middle JM.
Otherwise, looks fine.

[Brokkr]

I would cut guard in half but leave rescue master.

Melee master is the only class that has guard at max.  This would mean...no class gets guard at max.

[X-D]

Brokkr:
Understandable...BUT. If they are getting both guard and rescue so high, they really should, I think, lose ranged skills other then a usable level of throw.

There are subs, not to mention balance issues verses the other classes. Myself, I tend to see the role of "melee master" As less of standing watching everybody intently waiting for an attack and far more likely to be REALLY good at reacting after the fact. Why I said they should have high rescue. Low guard.

Meanwhile balancing Guard and rescue skills with other classes, Melee hunter would be the one with the higher guard as he should have higher perception skills...I mean, that is his job after all.

[Mazy]

In terms of Quality of Life crafter, I'll say Tribal maker/Criminal Maker is so much better than faire maker. I'd like to see faire maker get journeyman skinning and master bandaging just as old merchants had. Unless wagon making offers some new things I'm unaware of, Faire Maker's current set seems lackluster.

[Patuk]

I like the classes we have, by and large, and would prefer to keep them over this change right here.

[Brisket]

I'd prefer to keep our current classes to this change.

[Dresan]

At first glance I don't like it.  But there are still lot of unanswered questions.

Essentially its warrior, ranger, assassin and burgalar/pickpocket (which is basically miscreant, lol).

Again just at first glance:

• Bow and melee hunter should be combined(lets call the combination, new ranger for lack of a better word). They are both equally lackluster split like that. Blow_gun use has been removed, peace. Bash should be removed. Tanning and leatherworking should be removed. Guard and rescue at modest levels is okay but their role is hunter/gatherer, play melee master if you want a solid guard.
• The  new ranger and agent should have similar melee combat abilities. Weapons skills to low advanced. Dual weilding and two handed to low master. shield use to high advanced, etc. They should improve combat like light combat classes do currently.
•   Melee master should be the only class getting disarm and ability to learn combat quicker as per current heavy combat classes, and have the highest cap for defensive skills like parry, shield use, etc. Its much stronger than before with bandage and listen. I have some seriously mixed feeling about advanced weapons.   
• Agent should start with sap and get advanced bash and MAXed sneak
• sticky fingers needs MAXed hide, and why do i get the sneaking suspicious it is a further nerfed miscreant.
• Criminal maker should start with pickmaking

The attempt to once again nerf city stealth and split ranger into two crappier version of itself kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth in a way I cannot fully articulate. This is especially true after seeing how much more powerful the melee master looks than the original warrior, where all the other classes seem to all be watered down in some way or another to what we currently have.

Some beefy subclasses with maxed master skills would need to be added to make these classes as interesting to play as our current classes.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'd have to put it together.  The trick is, compare what to what? Agent 47 to Enforcer or to Infiltrator? Melee Hunter to Raider or Scout? Etc.

Yeah, I think most of these need diffs against at least two existing classes. It's all complicated. Maybe I will put something together tomorrow if nobody else has gotten to it first.

[X-D]

Heh, Unlike Dresan, I actually like the idea of two different style hunters rather then one single style that is either going to be overall OP or over all lackluster like we have now.

Although, I would bet that almost every tribal, specially elves would be taking Bow hunter.

I am totally on the other side of field compared to Dresan on how interesting the current classes are to play.

[Armaddict]

Feedback on current classes:
  I think it's pretty well known that I don't like them.  It isn't against the -idea- of them, but I believe the implementation may have been off; in order to 'blur the lines', we made every class so chock full of skills that yes, the lines are blurred, but so is their purpose.  Every class is overwhelmingly versatile, subguilds were made weird as a result.  It was likely excellent for people who like crafting, since they are now more capable while having their crafting classes.  It is likely more desirable for off-peak as well, where they simply don't have as many cooperative options to get things done.  For me, as a prime-time, mostly utilitarian class-picker...there's a lot of redundancy.  The mismatches of skill levels gets weird in some places (I still don't like the state of infiltrator vs miscreant).  Overall, the classes and subclasses combined look arbitrary and undirected.  I believe core classes are meant to provide the 'mashed potatoes' of how a character works, and the subclass should provide the gravy and seasonings.

Feedback on proposed classes:
I like them better.  I just do.  They are more strongly themed.  I will not go into nit-pickiness over every individual skill level, but I do believe classes define methodology and capability for certain avenues of methodology.  No one is sharply restricted to anything with subclasses, but they are choosing their true area of expertise, rather than trying to hide it in 3 different levels that often kind of fight against each other as far as being a 'themed' character.

Sidenote:
Honestly, the best thing in my mind is to make a relatively major change here, in the case that changes do get decided on.  1 is, yes, the buy system or point allocation system that lets players build their character with all the theme they want; they can tremendously mess this up by trying to go too broad, which is what I think the current classes do but with 'guaranteed efficacy'.  Too much 'jack of many trades' results in a swelteringly boring character field.  2 is something I favor as a more moderate stepping stone that has the guarantees, but also the theming and role-cost; change the way that double-picked skills interact so that their maxes combine rather than overrule, then modify 'core' classes to have much lower skill caps.  Melee Master?  It would need to be combined with something else that gave 'weapon skill' in order to become master level, and the sacrifice is breadth in your subclass.  Master assassin?  Guess what, you aren't taking both a city class and a desert subclass.  (Yes, wilderness hide and city hide should be separate skills rather than just granting the 'opposite' biome quality to their max skill).  Crafting the best armor in the known?  You took both a crafting class and subclass.  This doesn't mean that everyone needs gimp levels of everything, that would be a per-skill examination.  You could have subclasses be -big- skill maxes...or small ones.  You can split the skills as desired evenly between core and subclasses, or weight it more towards core classes (making core class the big decider), or weight it more towards subclasses (allowing breadth from off-core classes possible, i.e. non-crafting class and crafting subclass crafts pretty well!).  It gives a little bit MORE options on how to adjust tuning without breaking things, and gives a lot MORE options on how specialized your character is, due to the wealth of subclasses.

[lairos]

Apologies for the ramble and how this may come out since I am typing on my phone from the road.

I'm not necessarily a huge fan of our current setup, but it provides a little more versatility than this.

Melee master seems far more powered than the rest and while it does kind of bring us back to the original guilds? I would combine both melee and bow hunters, both agent 47 and sticky fingers and likely remove tribal crafter to combine between the other two. I do like the melee crafter though as it hits a nice middle ground.

This would increase the skills lists, but unlike our current setup, it would provide more playability than having to always rely on another player for certain skills rather than having the skill yourself, even at a lower level so you at least have a chance. It can be difficult when you can't find that person you need and often makes me less likely to play.

Slightly off topic, but if I can at elast suggest it, I believe subclasses should have the most rework or maybe in tandem. There are a large number and most of them are less than desirable when compared to an extended. I would also remove the karma need from them as it just creates a needless disparity between new players and those who have a karma. If someone has the karma, I am sure it's extremely rare to even bother with the normal subs at all and for newer players, if they survive, can make their characters more appealing to them.

[Agent_137]

I'd rather see in-depth reasoning for the 15 classes and in-depth reasoning for their failure than some 9 spitballed roles.

It feels like this isn't fine tuning but running from one end of the spectrum to the other.

[Brokkr]

• Bow and melee hunter should be combined(lets call the combination, new ranger for lack of a better word). They are both equally lackluster split like that. Blow_gun use has been removed, peace. Bash should be removed. Tanning and leatherworking should be removed. Guard and rescue at modest levels is okay but their role is hunter/gatherer, play melee master if you want a solid guard.
• The  new ranger and agent should have similar melee combat abilities. Weapons skills to low advanced. Dual weilding and two handed to low master. shield use to high advanced, etc. They should improve combat like light combat classes do currently.
•   Melee master should be the only class getting disarm and ability to learn combat quicker as per current heavy combat classes, and have the highest cap for defensive skills like parry, shield use, etc. Its much stronger than before with bandage and listen. I have some seriously mixed feeling about advanced weapons.   
• Agent should start with sap and get advanced bash and MAXed sneak
• sticky fingers needs MAXed hide, and why do i get the sneaking suspicious it is a further nerfed miscreant.
• Criminal maker should start with pickmaking

• Not going back to ranger, as when you look at legacy ranger it is clearly OP because it got it all.  Two classes for two different playstyles.
• Legacy ranger and legacy assassin did not get to equivalent melee combat ability, which is where the idea came from.
• Advanced weapons had some issues.  These branch earlier, which solves some of them.
• Sneak is lower as within most city rooms there will be no issues, but it is at a level to make it harder when they cross flag to wilderness stealth.
• Sticky fingers has the same sneak/hide values as pickpocket had.
• I went back and forth on that, there are pros and cons each way.