Poison Update

[Halcyon]

I would like to see raw poisons have short expiration timers.   

I would like to also see advanced and master level brew recipes that stored a poison in a longer lasting vial form, and/or increased the potency of a venom.

I would like to see some distinct poison effects saved for mage spells.   The cures can still be mundane, but this seems like an easy way to broaden effects perceived as curses.

[Cabooze]

I would like to see poisons reduced to ash when handled by a sorcerer of any type. if they wield a weapon that is poisoned or knock a poisoned arrow, their power strips the poison away.

Sorcs have enough going for them, they don't need access to the most dangerous poisons in the game to top it all off

[Krath]

1. Bring back Meth
2. I like the idea for poison running out after 1 ig month
3. Bring Back Loosetongue
4. I know with Skelle, there were different strengths, depending on what the source was, at one point in time. Doing something like that for the others might be cool too.

[Armaddict]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

[Jarvis]

It'd be tight to have cures taken before being poisoned have a built-up resistance to said poison.

Gonna go somewhere you know has X? Take Y beforehand just in case you get reeled and can't take it in time.

[Barsook]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

I agree/like for the realism.

[Ath]

Just buy the bloodburn cure available in <redacted> for cheap.

Please no IC specific information in posts.  It's okay to talk about what's in help files, but something that has to be found out in game, that we would appreciate isn't mentioned.

[Ath]

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.

I have to agree with this one to an extent.  I like the idea of having deadly poisons that can be gained in game, but make them -very- challenging to get.  I do like this idea though of making natural poisons less deadly.  Crafted poisons could be varying potencies.

[Brytta Léofa]

My #1 request would be to revamp how cures take effect. Right now it's just: "removes poison X, if you have it right now." I'd like for cures to instead apply an effect with a duration that reduces the effects of poisoning. Up front, this would fix the problem of cures having no prophylactic effect. It would also open the door to some more complex interactions.

Beyond that, I'm for anything that makes for a more nuanced experience with poisons, cures, and diseases. Some ideas:

- I'm a big fan of "poisons aren't natural ingredients; they're brewed from natural ingredients."
- Poison and cure effects could stack in various ways.
- We could have medicines that don't directly counteract poison or disease but do reduce the symptoms. (This might be the only non-magickal way of surviving some stacked poison effects.)
- Cures could have temporary negative effects; for instance, lowering max stamina a few points. (Obviously from a game-design perspective the cures to your sickest poisons should have big negative effects, to keep us from chewing perraine cures nonstop.)
- Some poisons and diseases could have a delayed onset: you might not know immediately whether you're going to get sick.
- Cures and poisons could both have a quality level, like tools do, based on the skill of the person who crafted them. (Amos, did you buy me good perraine or shitty perraine?)

[Taahir]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

You can't really step out of the southern gates in Luirs without a supply of burn cures, either. It's not good for the game. "Find a PC to sell you cures" can be near impossible with the current numbers and just makes me log off after trying for a while.

Burn cures used to be readily available in <redacted> from an NPC. I suggest those get put back. It doesn't make any sense that nobody is selling these somewhere where poisoning is that common.

[najdorf]

i thought about and conclude that poisons work great at the moment

[Olverdirn]

I just want to chime in that I've wanted to craft poisons that can be put on blades, and I have no problems with the dangerous ones being a challenge to get.

[Dan]

My main complaint with the current system isn't the poisons so much as the 100% inability for someone to figure out what cure to take. I have no way to mark my tablets, or assess them without appropriate skills and without taking extensive notes on what cures what, it's a huge pain in the butt. I'm also kind of an idiot when it comes to remembering this stuff OOCly and could get a full contingent of cures but in the moment forget what is what and it's frustrating on a player level. I'm just not a fan of the current system because of that reason, it feels overly complicated and nuanced... and while it adds complexity and importance to medic types, it's really frustrating for the end user on a player level. My two cents.

[Ath]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

You can't really step out of the southern gates in Luirs without a supply of burn cures, either. It's not good for the game. "Find a PC to sell you cures" can be near impossible with the current numbers and just makes me log off after trying for a while.

Burn cures used to be readily available in <redacted> from an NPC. I suggest those get put back. It doesn't make any sense that nobody is selling these somewhere where poisoning is that common.

Sorry, just changed this for someone else, but please don't mention IC locations to get things.  And just to note, they are still there last I knew, they just may have limited quantities.

Update: They are still there, not expensive, and also unlimited quantity.

[Fredd]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

I agree/like for the realism.

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

I would LOVE to see craftable poisons. But i imagine the best ones would be clan locked to appropriate clans.

Poisons that require the poison itself to make the antidote would be really neat, as this is how venom antidotes are made.

Just want to point out to people calling for "realism" : Most man made poisons don't have a cure. You just fucking die. The closest thing we got is an auto injector of speed we give to soldiers to speed up their heart rate to force the kidneys to process the stuff. Nerve Gas kills you, there's no pill for it, Blood agents kill you, there's no stopping it. I'm all for the cure system we have now. it's actually pretty neat and fantastical. But I would like to see some sort of "craft list" be generated as you level brewing. I kinda hate having to either save oocly info I learned IC on a notepad/spreadsheet or relearn it the next time I make a Physician type.

But yeah, some antidotes made from the poison itself would be great (especially if it's animal based poison) It would make ordering poisons less sus.

Edit: Could even make a different cure needed based on the source of the poison. But this is a bit to realistic, and makes things a bit less playable and fun. Which isn't the goal here.

[Brokkr]

My main complaint with the current system isn't the poisons so much as the 100% inability for someone to figure out what cure to take. I have no way to mark my tablets, or assess them without appropriate skills and without taking extensive notes on what cures what, it's a huge pain in the butt.

Tablets would not be easy to change and I sort of like that they are the poor man's brew output of lesser utility in being able to differentiate.  Have you played in Tuluk?  There are a small number of different empty vials in Tuluk that you can use to brew cures where it should be obvious what most people would use it for, but still up to player agency to do it that way or not.  Those are craftable.  Open to folks custom crafting different "vials".

[stoicreader]

I would like to see communicable diseases that are attached to clothing objects for a period of time.

Think blankets and smallpox.

Essentially "curse code" from other muds.

It would encourage people not to pickup disgusting shit off of dead corpses who died of questionable deaths.

[Armaddict]

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

While I know it's not particularly realistic, I also think it makes the gameplay of the game a lot more interesting.  I come from a very PvP heavy era of the game, at least as I remember it.  There were fights all over the place, and it wasn't plagued by the constant fear that someone was going to use x or y that was a fight ender, either for instant death or supplicance.

Fights should be a viable course of action without that knowledge that this is available all over the place.  It's not that poison -isn't- an issue, but you will usually not die immediately upon finding out it's being used.  As I said, poisons used to level the playing field between a class that is generally not as capable in face to face combat is a very viable utility for it.  Deadliness is not removed from the game.  It's just made much more difficult than 'find someone who can go here' or 'find someone who can kill this thing'.  There's steps in the chain, there's trust that has to be exerted, there's room for bullying and betrayal, and it becomes a motivator for plots in and of itself.

ETA:  This also allows for other ideas related.  Perhaps natural deadly poisons are just as deadly as they are now when first applied, but lose strength very quickly once applied...so that if you use it just before a fight, it will work as it does now.  For example, Peraine...say it has a potency of 100, but it drops by 10 or 20 every 'tick' so that after a day of being exposed to the air outside of its biological casing (a gland or leaf coating or whatnot), it almost never works.  But now you combine it with this other herb.  It makes it weaker; now it does not do what it used to do, it just removes x from agility, but it will stay on the blade for 3-4 times as long.  With this other herb, it will last indefinitely, but it just only removes x from their defense rolls.  But if you combine it with both this herb and that herb, it stays potent for this long, and bumps it back up to the higher level of potency.

There are all sorts of things you can do if poison crafting is a thing, including effects that simply diminish the poison with no benefit at all.  Poison remains useful, but there is a whole dynamic relationship built around finding it, modifying it, applying it, and using it.

[Fredd]

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

While I know it's not particularly realistic, I also think it makes the gameplay of the game a lot more interesting.  I come from a very PvP heavy era of the game, at least as I remember it.  There were fights all over the place, and it wasn't plagued by the constant fear that someone was going to use x or y that was a fight ender, either for instant death or supplicance.

Fights should be a viable course of action without that knowledge that this is available all over the place.  It's not that poison -isn't- an issue, but you will usually not die immediately upon finding out it's being used.  As I said, poisons used to level the playing field between a class that is generally not as capable in face to face combat is a very viable utility for it.  Deadliness is not removed from the game.  It's just made much more difficult than 'find someone who can go here' or 'find someone who can kill this thing'.  There's steps in the chain, there's trust that has to be exerted, there's room for bullying and betrayal, and it becomes a motivator for plots in and of itself.

Don't talk to me about the deep magic, for I was there.

LOL

No I get you, and we used to have a lot less random snake bites too. Like i said, I'm down for moving things around and putting other threats in their place.
And Bloodburn could be more or less ignored back then.

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

Lethal poisons are good for the game, especially on critters. But I get you, it is really annoying to go through your set of Cures in a week, because you needed to make a few deliveries. And now everyones out of (redacted) and you can't make the cure you need.

But that makes a cool supply and demand IMHO.  So there's two sides to this.

[Armaddict]

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

As I said, I was thinking more along the lines of deadly poisons still exist, but the transition from nature to 'it's on my blade now' is more complex than a single skill check.  And it's a lot more based on 'for this use', rather than 'keep all my blades tainted with max poison at all times'.  There are other poisons far more useful for keeping your blades tainted, because of their longevity and reliability, versus the deadly ones, which have a process to keep their deadliness going.

I'm confident we could come up with some really cool poison effects based off of combinations of various herbs and poisons, instead of the one-shot 'farm this up' that we have now.

ETA:  And just for the record, I think bloodburn is an example of very well balanced out poison right now.  It has prolonged effects left untreated.  It has application.  It could be useful to have long-term on blades if other durations were made shorter.  Adjusting cure availability is really the only part that needs adjustment; just as much as I dislike the prevalence of deadly poisons, I dislike the prevalence of easy-to-access cures for non-lethal poisons.

[Fredd]

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

As I said, I was thinking more along the lines of deadly poisons still exist, but the transition from nature to 'it's on my blade now' is more complex than a single skill check.  And it's a lot more based on 'for this use', rather than 'keep all my blades tainted with max poison at all times'.  There are other poisons far more useful for keeping your blades tainted, because of their longevity and reliability, versus the deadly ones, which have a process to keep their deadliness going.

I'm confident we could come up with some really cool poison effects based off of combinations of various herbs and poisons, instead of the one-shot 'farm this up' that we have now.

ETA:  And just for the record, I think bloodburn is an example of very well balanced out poison right now.  It has prolonged effects left untreated.  It has application.  It could be useful to have long-term on blades if other durations were made shorter.  Adjusting cure availability is really the only part that needs adjustment; just as much as I dislike the prevalence of deadly poisons, I dislike the prevalence of easy-to-access cures for non-lethal poisons.

After thinking about it, it would be cool if ytou base poisons were natural. And maybe with brew or Poisoning, you can refine it to a deadlier version, or one that lasts longer on the blade. Maybe the taint looses some strngth when dried, so it's stronger in say a snake. So the world doesn't lose lethality, but gains rp.

[mansa]

I think a poison that causes 'blindness' would be cool.

I think it would have three levels of poison:
Level 1 - You can't see the next room.
Level 2 - It's dark in the room, but you can still move room to room.  (NOT "You stumble and etc..")
Level 3 - Blindness

[Lotion]

I think a poison that causes 'blindness' would be cool.

I think it would have three levels of poison:
Level 1 - You can't see the next room.
Level 2 - It's dark in the room, but you can still move room to room.  (NOT "You stumble and etc..")
Level 3 - Blindness

There is already a source of nonmagical blindness in game that also comes from something that applies poison, so this would be very appropriate.

[Lotion]

It would be nice to have a poison that applies the coded firebreather effect of pepperbelly and then have nonmagical sources of that effect changed to use the poison effect rather than the magical effect.

[The Gruffalo]

Poison was primarily available to classes that needed them to level the playing field. Even when provided a blade coated in poisons, the best fighters in the game didn't typically have master backstab, or scan-- they had journeyman or advanced at best, and that was with extended subguilds. Now, with the class changes, the best fighters can and do have backstab to master and can also sneak/hide to a reasonable level, especially since there's so much sneak/hide+ gear out there but scan is so weak in counter. Then they often have magick subclasses on top of that arsenal of deadliness.  This removed the balance that existed between warriors/rangers/assassins.

It is the class changes that have made poisons feel even more unbalanced and stronger, and easier to get than they ever were, despite the changes to animal AI. In the past, you NEEDED poison, treachery, and guile if you wanted to win against a stronger opponent, and barring one circumstance (that is now changed) heavy-hitting poison was dangerous to acquire. That is no longer the case. So, now the stronger opponents have what you have, and they can fight better than you can, so all you can do is hide from them-- and hiding all the time is difficult for someone trying to play a character who interacts with others and behaves in a realistic fashion.

If we're sticking with this class system, poisoning absolutely needs a revamp.

Getting cures should remain difficult. The poisons That Can Kill You rather than Mildly Inconvenience You should not be on heavily trafficked areas of the gameworld. Snakes could give you grishen rather than bloodburn. That's scary, but it's not immediately deadly.

I'd lobby to change general poison (aka, bloodburn) into a steady debuff of hitpoints that caps out at maybe 75% of your max health and gradually wears off once it's run its course, leaving you much weaker for a while, but not killing you unless you run into some other threat that does kill you because you've been weakened. I'd also change terradin to make you unable to eat or drink without throwing up, but once you've emptied your stomach, you stop throwing up, you just feel too ill to eat (echoing real life physical illnesses). So, unless you cure it, you may slowly dehydrate and starve to death, but it's not an instant death sentence.

Both of these changes would still make you a weaker, easier target, and have many applications for those who are the torturer, kidnapper, and assassin types. It would also help prevent the cheesy poisoning "instant win" stacking combo that has become so prevalent. Any means of ending another character's story with zero to minimal risk to yourself should be looked at and adjusted so that it's no longer the case.

After all, that's why X spell is no longer in the game.

In short, I don't think poisons by themselves should kill you. I think they should make it easier TO kill you.

Poisons as they exist currently are very binary. I'd like to see more nuance and less deadliness and more utility applications. People love the old magick system because the spells had synergy that could be combined to help you accomplish a goal that wasn't possible with mundane abilities. It'd be great to see poisons become similar to that, and would help build a mundane toolbox that cuts down on the necessity of using magicks in many scenarios, where currently they require magick for a chance of success.

In short, use poisons and introduce auxiliary skills to widen the mundane toolbox and remove or debuff instant-win buttons like peraine and heramide. I.E., introduce binding with rope (with ways to counter), blindfolding (with ways to counter), poisons that interfere with mobility but aren't paralytics, current paralytics and sleeping poisons kick in slower, poisons that interfere with use of the Way but aren't x. Skellebaine could use a readjustment, as well, as the way it exists now can be jarring with the way the echoes change, interfering with your ability to roleplay a hallucinatory narrative, and some of the echoed side effects feel... unnecessary.

Or maybe poop humor just isn't my style.

tl;dr:
The class changes had a ripple impact on how poisons are acquired and used, and on the balance of power in the game.

No more "instant button" poisons, and no more poisons that kill you outright. Instead, widen the availability and type of poisons to inflict various detrimental effects. Use existing magickal spells as ideas and templates for these poisons. Let poisons be crafted which can be used on weapons, keep the brewed vials as they are but expand the available recipes and curatives (there's more than enough potential taste combinations left to do so). Leave the natural poison sources in place, but rework the deadlier poisons (heramide, peraine, terradin) so that they're not stackable instant-win buttons with zero risk to the aggressor when applied at stealth range.

Make skellebaine very effective and easily applied to help it be a mundane counter against x and x, but rework it so it's closer to the way it originally was re: echoes, and remove the extra upset-stomach that was introduced to it.

If you really want something like that, perhaps split that out to a separate poison. I can see Fales pranking each other with that one.

Changing skellebaine to what it is now removed a lot of RP opportunities and tribal rituals that were based around it.