Poison Update

[Halaster]

One of the things I plan to get to sometime soonish is an overhaul of the poisoning system.  I have some ideas of what I think needs done, but I'd like to get some feedback from the community first.  So, let me hear your ideas in this thread.  Some ground rules first, though:

1.  Avoid sharing sensitive IC information such as existing poison locations and affects beyond what can be found in a helpfile.  Before you mention affects/location, check the helpfile real quick (help poison).  If your idea contains sensitive info, then put in a request and address it to me for the poisoning idea thread.

2.  It's OK to discuss someone else's idea, but don't just poop on it - give reasons why you're against their idea and even provide alternatives. In all circumstances, keep the discussion civil.

3.  I make no guarantees of any kind that any ideas presented here will be used.  Along these lines, understand that ideas that require massive game overhaul are less likely to get done - but don't let that discourage you from suggesting it, this is after all just a brainstorming/idea thread.

[pilgrim]

İf someone is poisoned it could show a line in assess, and a death from poison could show some evidence about that too. İt'd be nice as well if PC corpses didn't decay so fast.

[LidlessEye]

It does show on assess.

[mansa]

#1 - Publish all MOST of the cures recipes in the poison helpfiles.

This will change the playerbase behavior so that they will more actively search out specific herbs to acquire, rather than using old files and searching for knowledge from previous players.  Keep the information in game.
If you don't want to publish the cure recipes, put the cure recipes on NPCs in the cities, so they can search out experts and find out the cure.   Getting poisoned, and then trying out a potential cure is a very bad player experience.
If you make a cure, have the cure tell the 'brewer' what cure you just made.

#2 - Right now, when you make a cure of a specific color, the shape of the cure is always the same.   I would suggest that we add a choice of 7 different shapes for every potential cure color.
So, you type craft mash and the game replies with a choice
>craft mash.red
You can craft a red mash into the following:
=========================================================
Recipe                           |  Skill   | Difficulty
=========================================================
#1 a square red tablet           |  Brew    | [Easy]
#2 a triangle red tablet         |  Brew    | [Easy]
#3 a circlular red tablet        |  Brew    | [Easy]
...
#7 a rectangular red tablet      |  Brew    | [Easy]



#3 - Keep people with the 'brew' skill to be the only ones that can detect what a cure is made from

#4 - Create a poison that specifically targets magic casters, and only affects their ability to cast spells.  I would say a combination of both (slow) mana loss and the inability to form the spell words.  Make it last (at most) 30 minutes.

#5 - Create a poison that specifically targets psionic abilities, and only affects their ability to use the way.  I would say a combination of both (slow) focus loss and the inability to form any psionic skills.  Make it last (at most) 30 minutes.

#6 - Keep skellebain the same, but shorten the maximum length of affect by half.

#7 - Have poisons 'wear out' on knives/daggers/arrows.   I would suggest an in-game month.  (231 days In-Game)

#8 - Reduce the effectiveness of Terradin: make it 'tick' half as much, and make it be affected by how 'full' your character is by 50% more.   (if it makes you throw up, have it reduce your 'full stomach' by half as much as it does now.)

[Fredd]

Some fun ideas  straight from the nightmare fuel that was my Army Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, warfare training.

Blood Agent - These poisons bond to the red blood cells so they can't  carry oxygen. The resault is the victim suffocates, even though they are breathing.

Blister Agent - These poisons cause blisters, and the puss in those blisters causes more blisters. And so on, and so on. Think Small Pox, but chemical burns.

Nerve Agent - Disrupts how the nervous system works. Many of the most medically significant venoms are natural nerve agents.

[betweenford]

I think more nonlethal, interesting status-effect-esque poisons would be nice. Like making someone unable to speak normally because their tongue is now fat. Or poisons that mess up a stat or a derived stat temporarily.

Less obscene poison timers for some poisons, because some poisons lasting for their upper limit is BLEGH.

Different or more noticeably different intensities of existing poison, so afflicting someone with a really rare and expensive variant of Bloodburn would have faster effects, quicker onset, harsher dice rolls to inflict, or more cures to fix.

[Fredd]

I think more nonlethal, interesting status-effect-esque poisons would be nice. Like making someone unable to speak normally because their tongue is now fat. Or poisons that mess up a stat or a derived stat temporarily.

Less obscene poison timers for some poisons, because some poisons lasting for their upper limit is BLEGH.

Different or more noticeably different intensities of existing poison, so afflicting someone with a really rare and expensive variant of Bloodburn would have faster effects, quicker onset, harsher dice rolls to inflict, or more cures to fix.

I'de love to see one that causes a lose of balance and coordination. (like being drunk)

[Athapaxis]

It would sure be fun to have a poison that gives people the runs.  Would require some playing along, but boy could we have a good time with that.

[LidlessEye]

A certain poison does do that sometimes.

[najdorf]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

[Patuk]

This is partially tangential, but it ties into the discussion a lot. It's also I something I find important.

Please get the angk snakes out of the Red desert. Genuinely.

I am writing this post at a time when there are all of four PCs online. Four. This is during the day; peak doesn't really start until midnight is already past. I can play for very literal hours, stick around in public, and never meet a soul despite it. Meeting people is really hard to consistently do, and meeting people who can make cures? Even worse.

It'd be one thing if we were playing a decade ago and cures had a relatively color-based system attached. Not so today! There is no intuitive way to see what you made, at all, and your options are either to get a cure that works, pray it does actually work, and reverse engineer it, or ICly and OOCly collude. It is bad game design and I lament the inertia that we (necessarily) have, because I'd rather this not be the case.

All of this makes the damn angk in the Red a scourge. There are other venomous mobs in the game I don't hate as much - yompar and cilops, say. Both of those critters have the good manners to be relatively out of the way and not in fact completely hidden. Angk, plainly, are extremely annoying to have to deal with. The combination of hidden + aggressive + venomous means your PC can't travel Luir's-Allanak/RSV regularly without a steady supply of bloodburn cures. The bloodburn tax is annoying, senseless, we've done fine without for decades, and I very strongly request that we get to do without, since the game grinds down and slows a whole lot more when people's travel is so inhibited for a mere couple dumb snakes.

[pilgrim]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

By wanting it to show in assess, I mean, I want it to show on a corpse. It's very frustrating to find corpses and need a staff to animate an echo that there's vomit everywhere, for instance. I'm not even sure if corpses retain other wounds that should show on assess (retaining over time) because I have found so many unmarked corpses. And the corpses of PCs should really last more than a couple IC weeks in order to give people time to find them, at least in sheltered areas without scavenging animals.

[Halaster]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

[betweenford]

I think as far as poison gathering goes, bb, grishen, peraine, and heramide are in a decent place as far as acquisition goes. Terradin is like usually way too easy to gather and alot of ppl know the spots and can gather like obscene amounts of it. Might be good if sources of poison moved around a bit, were seasonal, were more present in harder to reach areas.

Also maybe more soft fails for poisoning, inexpert and expert applications of poison. Maybe a sleight of hand to try and secretly poison things in broad daylight(checked vs Watch).

Poisons changing ldesc of a corpse as mentioned above would also be cool. Or detectable with poisoning/spells.

[Patuk]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

[Fredd]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

Craftable poisons would be neat. But I might be the only person who thinks this.

[Ath]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

[Ath]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

Craftable poisons would be neat. But I might be the only person who thinks this.

Read the help file:  https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Brew

[Patuk]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

Yes. If getting bloodburn weren't a once-in-a-RL-week opportunity, I'd find the presence of angk in the Red much less of an issue.

[mansa]

If poisons wore out on weapons.
...
and
...
If cure recipes were more popular and published
...
Then

I would like to have a way to brew poisons that can be used on weapons.

[cali]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

Yes. If getting bloodburn weren't a once-in-a-RL-week opportunity, I'd find the presence of angk in the Red much less of an issue.

Just buy the bloodburn cure available in <redacted> for cheap.

[mansa]

I would like to see Peraine remade with different levels, similar to the changes made to Skellebain years ago.


Peraine Poison Level 1:
Your combat swing timer is doubled
Your movement speed delay is doubled
Your offense skill is -10%
Your defense skill is -10%

Peraine Poison Level 2:
Your combat swing timer is doubled
Your movement speed delay is doubled
Your "delays" from combat skills are doubled
Your defense skill is -25%
Your offense skill is -25%

Peraine Poison Level 3:
You are affected by the "focus"-style paralyze.


You can only be affected by higher levels of peraine poison by being hit by a second poison source, and a third poison source.  (or by finding the ultra-rare peraine level 3 poison / brewing it with expert tools)
Skill gains when affected by this poison is disabled.

[Wday]

Heavy timers so poisons on weapons to dry out fast and poison items in stock go bad fast.

[Tisiphone]

I really, really like Mansa's idea about being able to give tablets a shape as well as a colour. In a similar vein, I'd also like a small range of vials to use with brew, of slightly different shapes or component materials. I'm not sure that fits terribly well with this thread, but I definitely don't want it lost.

I don't have a specific set of recommendations for poisons (and the cures that should go with them), but I do have an idea for the structure, so to speak.

There should be four tiers of poisons, and their cures.

First Tier:
Relatively easy to acquire. Unlikely to be much more than a nuisance, however, outside very specific circumstances. Relatively easy to cure or mitigate. This might include attacking/debuffing various primary or derived stats.

Second Tier:
Somewhat difficult to acquire (or possibly simply to store), but not too difficult. Somewhat debilitating, though not necessarily deadly. Definitely bad to be afflicted with in an already potentially-dangerous situation, but rather unlikely to kill you outright if you can get to safety. Moderately difficult to cure, too. Possibly cures require mixtures, or some ingredients that are difficult to store (freshness?). This category could also include various methods of dealing with the supernatural specifically.

Third Tier:
Difficult to acquire and/or store. Deadly or severely (possibly permanently?) debilitating if untreated. Also very difficult to cure/treat. However, not directly combat effective. Someone may die in 5 IRL minutes (IG half an hour) if you stick him with an arrow or a tainted blade or sucker him into drinking a cup of wine laced with the stuff, and debility should be progressive, but it shouldn't be an immediate 'I win' button if he's casting deadly spells or swinging a club at your head. (Or the poison might be more insidious, with either an incubation time or just a longer effect time but even more difficult to deal with.)
This category could also include various powerful effects that aren't necessarily deadly but definitely put one character strongly in the power of another for a period of time, such as being unable to use the Way or move without assistance.

I would also like the idea of being able to layer poisons, which might be how some promote up a tier. Take three separate tier-1 poisons and carefully layer them together and maybe you get a tier 2 poison. Similarly maybe that's how you get tier 3 poisons: from tier 2 poisons, crafting, distilling, and applying several at once. Too, more powerful poisons should involve cures that focus on management and treatment, not just pop the correct tablet and ignore it.

[Halcyon]

I would like to see:

Some poisons with much longer duration and minor effect.   Example, an ingested poison that would make your pc sick for days up to two weeks, lowering your endurance score by 2 levels until cured.

A poison that worked opposite to any current resistance system.  One dose wouldnt even inconvenience your pc, but enough doses over time would add up to a lethal effect.

A poison that lasted a long time and doubled food or water intake needs.