Poison Update

[Halaster]

One of the things I plan to get to sometime soonish is an overhaul of the poisoning system.  I have some ideas of what I think needs done, but I'd like to get some feedback from the community first.  So, let me hear your ideas in this thread.  Some ground rules first, though:

1.  Avoid sharing sensitive IC information such as existing poison locations and affects beyond what can be found in a helpfile.  Before you mention affects/location, check the helpfile real quick (help poison).  If your idea contains sensitive info, then put in a request and address it to me for the poisoning idea thread.

2.  It's OK to discuss someone else's idea, but don't just poop on it - give reasons why you're against their idea and even provide alternatives. In all circumstances, keep the discussion civil.

3.  I make no guarantees of any kind that any ideas presented here will be used.  Along these lines, understand that ideas that require massive game overhaul are less likely to get done - but don't let that discourage you from suggesting it, this is after all just a brainstorming/idea thread.

[pilgrim]

İf someone is poisoned it could show a line in assess, and a death from poison could show some evidence about that too. İt'd be nice as well if PC corpses didn't decay so fast.

[LidlessEye]

It does show on assess.

[mansa]

#1 - Publish all MOST of the cures recipes in the poison helpfiles.

This will change the playerbase behavior so that they will more actively search out specific herbs to acquire, rather than using old files and searching for knowledge from previous players.  Keep the information in game.
If you don't want to publish the cure recipes, put the cure recipes on NPCs in the cities, so they can search out experts and find out the cure.   Getting poisoned, and then trying out a potential cure is a very bad player experience.
If you make a cure, have the cure tell the 'brewer' what cure you just made.

#2 - Right now, when you make a cure of a specific color, the shape of the cure is always the same.   I would suggest that we add a choice of 7 different shapes for every potential cure color.
So, you type craft mash and the game replies with a choice
>craft mash.red
You can craft a red mash into the following:
=========================================================
Recipe                           |  Skill   | Difficulty
=========================================================
#1 a square red tablet           |  Brew    | [Easy]
#2 a triangle red tablet         |  Brew    | [Easy]
#3 a circlular red tablet        |  Brew    | [Easy]
...
#7 a rectangular red tablet      |  Brew    | [Easy]



#3 - Keep people with the 'brew' skill to be the only ones that can detect what a cure is made from

#4 - Create a poison that specifically targets magic casters, and only affects their ability to cast spells.  I would say a combination of both (slow) mana loss and the inability to form the spell words.  Make it last (at most) 30 minutes.

#5 - Create a poison that specifically targets psionic abilities, and only affects their ability to use the way.  I would say a combination of both (slow) focus loss and the inability to form any psionic skills.  Make it last (at most) 30 minutes.

#6 - Keep skellebain the same, but shorten the maximum length of affect by half.

#7 - Have poisons 'wear out' on knives/daggers/arrows.   I would suggest an in-game month.  (231 days In-Game)

#8 - Reduce the effectiveness of Terradin: make it 'tick' half as much, and make it be affected by how 'full' your character is by 50% more.   (if it makes you throw up, have it reduce your 'full stomach' by half as much as it does now.)

[Fredd]

Some fun ideas  straight from the nightmare fuel that was my Army Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, warfare training.

Blood Agent - These poisons bond to the red blood cells so they can't  carry oxygen. The resault is the victim suffocates, even though they are breathing.

Blister Agent - These poisons cause blisters, and the puss in those blisters causes more blisters. And so on, and so on. Think Small Pox, but chemical burns.

Nerve Agent - Disrupts how the nervous system works. Many of the most medically significant venoms are natural nerve agents.

[betweenford]

I think more nonlethal, interesting status-effect-esque poisons would be nice. Like making someone unable to speak normally because their tongue is now fat. Or poisons that mess up a stat or a derived stat temporarily.

Less obscene poison timers for some poisons, because some poisons lasting for their upper limit is BLEGH.

Different or more noticeably different intensities of existing poison, so afflicting someone with a really rare and expensive variant of Bloodburn would have faster effects, quicker onset, harsher dice rolls to inflict, or more cures to fix.

[Fredd]

I think more nonlethal, interesting status-effect-esque poisons would be nice. Like making someone unable to speak normally because their tongue is now fat. Or poisons that mess up a stat or a derived stat temporarily.

Less obscene poison timers for some poisons, because some poisons lasting for their upper limit is BLEGH.

Different or more noticeably different intensities of existing poison, so afflicting someone with a really rare and expensive variant of Bloodburn would have faster effects, quicker onset, harsher dice rolls to inflict, or more cures to fix.

I'de love to see one that causes a lose of balance and coordination. (like being drunk)

[Athapaxis]

It would sure be fun to have a poison that gives people the runs.  Would require some playing along, but boy could we have a good time with that.

[LidlessEye]

A certain poison does do that sometimes.

[najdorf]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

[Patuk]

This is partially tangential, but it ties into the discussion a lot. It's also I something I find important.

Please get the angk snakes out of the Red desert. Genuinely.

I am writing this post at a time when there are all of four PCs online. Four. This is during the day; peak doesn't really start until midnight is already past. I can play for very literal hours, stick around in public, and never meet a soul despite it. Meeting people is really hard to consistently do, and meeting people who can make cures? Even worse.

It'd be one thing if we were playing a decade ago and cures had a relatively color-based system attached. Not so today! There is no intuitive way to see what you made, at all, and your options are either to get a cure that works, pray it does actually work, and reverse engineer it, or ICly and OOCly collude. It is bad game design and I lament the inertia that we (necessarily) have, because I'd rather this not be the case.

All of this makes the damn angk in the Red a scourge. There are other venomous mobs in the game I don't hate as much - yompar and cilops, say. Both of those critters have the good manners to be relatively out of the way and not in fact completely hidden. Angk, plainly, are extremely annoying to have to deal with. The combination of hidden + aggressive + venomous means your PC can't travel Luir's-Allanak/RSV regularly without a steady supply of bloodburn cures. The bloodburn tax is annoying, senseless, we've done fine without for decades, and I very strongly request that we get to do without, since the game grinds down and slows a whole lot more when people's travel is so inhibited for a mere couple dumb snakes.

[pilgrim]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

By wanting it to show in assess, I mean, I want it to show on a corpse. It's very frustrating to find corpses and need a staff to animate an echo that there's vomit everywhere, for instance. I'm not even sure if corpses retain other wounds that should show on assess (retaining over time) because I have found so many unmarked corpses. And the corpses of PCs should really last more than a couple IC weeks in order to give people time to find them, at least in sheltered areas without scavenging animals.

[Halaster]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

[betweenford]

I think as far as poison gathering goes, bb, grishen, peraine, and heramide are in a decent place as far as acquisition goes. Terradin is like usually way too easy to gather and alot of ppl know the spots and can gather like obscene amounts of it. Might be good if sources of poison moved around a bit, were seasonal, were more present in harder to reach areas.

Also maybe more soft fails for poisoning, inexpert and expert applications of poison. Maybe a sleight of hand to try and secretly poison things in broad daylight(checked vs Watch).

Poisons changing ldesc of a corpse as mentioned above would also be cool. Or detectable with poisoning/spells.

[Patuk]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

[Fredd]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

Craftable poisons would be neat. But I might be the only person who thinks this.

[Ath]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

[Ath]

to clarify are changes going to be to poisoning skill only or also to the after effects of posioning too?

Both.  Either.  Just looking for brainstorming ideas for any changes you'd want to see to poisoning. To applying it, its affects, and even how its gathered.

Craftable poisons would be neat. But I might be the only person who thinks this.

Read the help file:  https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Brew

[Patuk]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

Yes. If getting bloodburn weren't a once-in-a-RL-week opportunity, I'd find the presence of angk in the Red much less of an issue.

[mansa]

If poisons wore out on weapons.
...
and
...
If cure recipes were more popular and published
...
Then

I would like to have a way to brew poisons that can be used on weapons.

[cali]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

Traveling into the Red is a lethal risk if you have no cures. And you likely won't if you aren't an American with insomnia. It has been extremely tough for me to get my hands on them reliably and it actively sours my experience of the game, a lot. So yes, I would appreciate for the Red desert to be angk-free.

So in this case, easier access to the cure needed to deal with those snakes is what I feel is a better answer.  You'd think that since that poison is so common, that the cure would also be pretty common so folks could buy it easily enough.

Yes. If getting bloodburn weren't a once-in-a-RL-week opportunity, I'd find the presence of angk in the Red much less of an issue.

Just buy the bloodburn cure available in <redacted> for cheap.

[mansa]

I would like to see Peraine remade with different levels, similar to the changes made to Skellebain years ago.


Peraine Poison Level 1:
Your combat swing timer is doubled
Your movement speed delay is doubled
Your offense skill is -10%
Your defense skill is -10%

Peraine Poison Level 2:
Your combat swing timer is doubled
Your movement speed delay is doubled
Your "delays" from combat skills are doubled
Your defense skill is -25%
Your offense skill is -25%

Peraine Poison Level 3:
You are affected by the "focus"-style paralyze.


You can only be affected by higher levels of peraine poison by being hit by a second poison source, and a third poison source.  (or by finding the ultra-rare peraine level 3 poison / brewing it with expert tools)
Skill gains when affected by this poison is disabled.

[Wday]

Heavy timers so poisons on weapons to dry out fast and poison items in stock go bad fast.

[Tisiphone]

I really, really like Mansa's idea about being able to give tablets a shape as well as a colour. In a similar vein, I'd also like a small range of vials to use with brew, of slightly different shapes or component materials. I'm not sure that fits terribly well with this thread, but I definitely don't want it lost.

I don't have a specific set of recommendations for poisons (and the cures that should go with them), but I do have an idea for the structure, so to speak.

There should be four tiers of poisons, and their cures.

First Tier:
Relatively easy to acquire. Unlikely to be much more than a nuisance, however, outside very specific circumstances. Relatively easy to cure or mitigate. This might include attacking/debuffing various primary or derived stats.

Second Tier:
Somewhat difficult to acquire (or possibly simply to store), but not too difficult. Somewhat debilitating, though not necessarily deadly. Definitely bad to be afflicted with in an already potentially-dangerous situation, but rather unlikely to kill you outright if you can get to safety. Moderately difficult to cure, too. Possibly cures require mixtures, or some ingredients that are difficult to store (freshness?). This category could also include various methods of dealing with the supernatural specifically.

Third Tier:
Difficult to acquire and/or store. Deadly or severely (possibly permanently?) debilitating if untreated. Also very difficult to cure/treat. However, not directly combat effective. Someone may die in 5 IRL minutes (IG half an hour) if you stick him with an arrow or a tainted blade or sucker him into drinking a cup of wine laced with the stuff, and debility should be progressive, but it shouldn't be an immediate 'I win' button if he's casting deadly spells or swinging a club at your head. (Or the poison might be more insidious, with either an incubation time or just a longer effect time but even more difficult to deal with.)
This category could also include various powerful effects that aren't necessarily deadly but definitely put one character strongly in the power of another for a period of time, such as being unable to use the Way or move without assistance.

I would also like the idea of being able to layer poisons, which might be how some promote up a tier. Take three separate tier-1 poisons and carefully layer them together and maybe you get a tier 2 poison. Similarly maybe that's how you get tier 3 poisons: from tier 2 poisons, crafting, distilling, and applying several at once. Too, more powerful poisons should involve cures that focus on management and treatment, not just pop the correct tablet and ignore it.

[Halcyon]

I would like to see:

Some poisons with much longer duration and minor effect.   Example, an ingested poison that would make your pc sick for days up to two weeks, lowering your endurance score by 2 levels until cured.

A poison that worked opposite to any current resistance system.  One dose wouldnt even inconvenience your pc, but enough doses over time would add up to a lethal effect.

A poison that lasted a long time and doubled food or water intake needs.

[Halcyon]

I would like to see raw poisons have short expiration timers.   

I would like to also see advanced and master level brew recipes that stored a poison in a longer lasting vial form, and/or increased the potency of a venom.

I would like to see some distinct poison effects saved for mage spells.   The cures can still be mundane, but this seems like an easy way to broaden effects perceived as curses.

[Cabooze]

I would like to see poisons reduced to ash when handled by a sorcerer of any type. if they wield a weapon that is poisoned or knock a poisoned arrow, their power strips the poison away.

Sorcs have enough going for them, they don't need access to the most dangerous poisons in the game to top it all off

[Krath]

1. Bring back Meth
2. I like the idea for poison running out after 1 ig month
3. Bring Back Loosetongue
4. I know with Skelle, there were different strengths, depending on what the source was, at one point in time. Doing something like that for the others might be cool too.

[Armaddict]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

[Jarvis]

It'd be tight to have cures taken before being poisoned have a built-up resistance to said poison.

Gonna go somewhere you know has X? Take Y beforehand just in case you get reeled and can't take it in time.

[Barsook]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

I agree/like for the realism.

[Ath]

Just buy the bloodburn cure available in <redacted> for cheap.

Please no IC specific information in posts.  It's okay to talk about what's in help files, but something that has to be found out in game, that we would appreciate isn't mentioned.

[Ath]

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.

I have to agree with this one to an extent.  I like the idea of having deadly poisons that can be gained in game, but make them -very- challenging to get.  I do like this idea though of making natural poisons less deadly.  Crafted poisons could be varying potencies.

[Brytta Léofa]

My #1 request would be to revamp how cures take effect. Right now it's just: "removes poison X, if you have it right now." I'd like for cures to instead apply an effect with a duration that reduces the effects of poisoning. Up front, this would fix the problem of cures having no prophylactic effect. It would also open the door to some more complex interactions.

Beyond that, I'm for anything that makes for a more nuanced experience with poisons, cures, and diseases. Some ideas:

- I'm a big fan of "poisons aren't natural ingredients; they're brewed from natural ingredients."
- Poison and cure effects could stack in various ways.
- We could have medicines that don't directly counteract poison or disease but do reduce the symptoms. (This might be the only non-magickal way of surviving some stacked poison effects.)
- Cures could have temporary negative effects; for instance, lowering max stamina a few points. (Obviously from a game-design perspective the cures to your sickest poisons should have big negative effects, to keep us from chewing perraine cures nonstop.)
- Some poisons and diseases could have a delayed onset: you might not know immediately whether you're going to get sick.
- Cures and poisons could both have a quality level, like tools do, based on the skill of the person who crafted them. (Amos, did you buy me good perraine or shitty perraine?)

[Taahir]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

You can't really step out of the southern gates in Luirs without a supply of burn cures, either. It's not good for the game. "Find a PC to sell you cures" can be near impossible with the current numbers and just makes me log off after trying for a while.

Burn cures used to be readily available in <redacted> from an NPC. I suggest those get put back. It doesn't make any sense that nobody is selling these somewhere where poisoning is that common.

[najdorf]

i thought about and conclude that poisons work great at the moment

[Olverdirn]

I just want to chime in that I've wanted to craft poisons that can be put on blades, and I have no problems with the dangerous ones being a challenge to get.

[Dan]

My main complaint with the current system isn't the poisons so much as the 100% inability for someone to figure out what cure to take. I have no way to mark my tablets, or assess them without appropriate skills and without taking extensive notes on what cures what, it's a huge pain in the butt. I'm also kind of an idiot when it comes to remembering this stuff OOCly and could get a full contingent of cures but in the moment forget what is what and it's frustrating on a player level. I'm just not a fan of the current system because of that reason, it feels overly complicated and nuanced... and while it adds complexity and importance to medic types, it's really frustrating for the end user on a player level. My two cents.

[Ath]

I don't think travel needs to be any easier. Speaking generically, not speaking regarding wild lethal risks, but planning for a journey and getting cures (negotiating with other PCs) and getting companions if you need them, and all of that, is good for the game and good for roleplay.

You can't really step out of the southern gates in Luirs without a supply of burn cures, either. It's not good for the game. "Find a PC to sell you cures" can be near impossible with the current numbers and just makes me log off after trying for a while.

Burn cures used to be readily available in <redacted> from an NPC. I suggest those get put back. It doesn't make any sense that nobody is selling these somewhere where poisoning is that common.

Sorry, just changed this for someone else, but please don't mention IC locations to get things.  And just to note, they are still there last I knew, they just may have limited quantities.

Update: They are still there, not expensive, and also unlimited quantity.

[Fredd]

Backing up what some people have said already, with some twists.

-Remove deadly natural poisons.  There can be strong ones, but the deadly ones should be crafted.  You can combine this crafting with brew, or make a separate poison_making skill, but despite the realism of some things in nature being super deadly, keep that restricted to killing the deadliest of things.  Do not make these things farmable.
-Natural poisons should be reagents for crafted poisons.  Crafting poisons increases their efficacy through use of other non-poison reagents, or sometimes multiple poisons.  It also changes the means of transmission, i.e. Maybe a lot of natural poisons are now only strong when ingested.
-Poisons should not be so simple as 'This poison is this type.'  Identifying them should be hard by just, say, looking at a blade.  I'd rather them be identifiable as affecting the nerves, affecting the blood, affecting the vision, etc.
-Much more varied, but weaker, types.  It would be a whole lot nicer for the 'poisony' classes to use poisons to even the playing field, rather than just making all combat more even across the board for classes.  Finding a way to administer this poison that gives the shakes to the soldier you're fighting to even the field, or this one that makes it so that your hp prompt is not exactly accurate anymore (you're numb, dummy, you can't tell).  There's a lot of room for crafted poisons to be incredibly targeted in their effects, instead of just 'This doesn't make them dead, this isn't useful.'
-Cures are too generic.  I'd rather see extension of physicians.  It's not as simple as 'take this pill'.  It's an actual treatment.
-Residual effects should be more common and more prolonged.  Repeated exposure to a poison should start taking its toll, unless treated by a physician and treated well. Mediocre poisoners might be known for their shaky hands due to repeated exposure to their toxins in a non-professional way.  The master poisoner is a class unto themself.

Things of that nature, or in that class of change, are right in my thumbs up category.  Poison has a lot of room to be a lot more interesting in its use than as a simple one-shot mechanism, and we don't have to make it useless to accomplish that.

I agree/like for the realism.

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

I would LOVE to see craftable poisons. But i imagine the best ones would be clan locked to appropriate clans.

Poisons that require the poison itself to make the antidote would be really neat, as this is how venom antidotes are made.

Just want to point out to people calling for "realism" : Most man made poisons don't have a cure. You just fucking die. The closest thing we got is an auto injector of speed we give to soldiers to speed up their heart rate to force the kidneys to process the stuff. Nerve Gas kills you, there's no pill for it, Blood agents kill you, there's no stopping it. I'm all for the cure system we have now. it's actually pretty neat and fantastical. But I would like to see some sort of "craft list" be generated as you level brewing. I kinda hate having to either save oocly info I learned IC on a notepad/spreadsheet or relearn it the next time I make a Physician type.

But yeah, some antidotes made from the poison itself would be great (especially if it's animal based poison) It would make ordering poisons less sus.

Edit: Could even make a different cure needed based on the source of the poison. But this is a bit to realistic, and makes things a bit less playable and fun. Which isn't the goal here.

[Brokkr]

My main complaint with the current system isn't the poisons so much as the 100% inability for someone to figure out what cure to take. I have no way to mark my tablets, or assess them without appropriate skills and without taking extensive notes on what cures what, it's a huge pain in the butt.

Tablets would not be easy to change and I sort of like that they are the poor man's brew output of lesser utility in being able to differentiate.  Have you played in Tuluk?  There are a small number of different empty vials in Tuluk that you can use to brew cures where it should be obvious what most people would use it for, but still up to player agency to do it that way or not.  Those are craftable.  Open to folks custom crafting different "vials".

[stoicreader]

I would like to see communicable diseases that are attached to clothing objects for a period of time.

Think blankets and smallpox.

Essentially "curse code" from other muds.

It would encourage people not to pickup disgusting shit off of dead corpses who died of questionable deaths.

[Armaddict]

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

While I know it's not particularly realistic, I also think it makes the gameplay of the game a lot more interesting.  I come from a very PvP heavy era of the game, at least as I remember it.  There were fights all over the place, and it wasn't plagued by the constant fear that someone was going to use x or y that was a fight ender, either for instant death or supplicance.

Fights should be a viable course of action without that knowledge that this is available all over the place.  It's not that poison -isn't- an issue, but you will usually not die immediately upon finding out it's being used.  As I said, poisons used to level the playing field between a class that is generally not as capable in face to face combat is a very viable utility for it.  Deadliness is not removed from the game.  It's just made much more difficult than 'find someone who can go here' or 'find someone who can kill this thing'.  There's steps in the chain, there's trust that has to be exerted, there's room for bullying and betrayal, and it becomes a motivator for plots in and of itself.

ETA:  This also allows for other ideas related.  Perhaps natural deadly poisons are just as deadly as they are now when first applied, but lose strength very quickly once applied...so that if you use it just before a fight, it will work as it does now.  For example, Peraine...say it has a potency of 100, but it drops by 10 or 20 every 'tick' so that after a day of being exposed to the air outside of its biological casing (a gland or leaf coating or whatnot), it almost never works.  But now you combine it with this other herb.  It makes it weaker; now it does not do what it used to do, it just removes x from agility, but it will stay on the blade for 3-4 times as long.  With this other herb, it will last indefinitely, but it just only removes x from their defense rolls.  But if you combine it with both this herb and that herb, it stays potent for this long, and bumps it back up to the higher level of potency.

There are all sorts of things you can do if poison crafting is a thing, including effects that simply diminish the poison with no benefit at all.  Poison remains useful, but there is a whole dynamic relationship built around finding it, modifying it, applying it, and using it.

[Fredd]

Deadly poisons 10000000% should be natural. it's silly for them not to.  I'm fine with an arguement of moving them, or making them not every room in some spots. But c'mon.

While I know it's not particularly realistic, I also think it makes the gameplay of the game a lot more interesting.  I come from a very PvP heavy era of the game, at least as I remember it.  There were fights all over the place, and it wasn't plagued by the constant fear that someone was going to use x or y that was a fight ender, either for instant death or supplicance.

Fights should be a viable course of action without that knowledge that this is available all over the place.  It's not that poison -isn't- an issue, but you will usually not die immediately upon finding out it's being used.  As I said, poisons used to level the playing field between a class that is generally not as capable in face to face combat is a very viable utility for it.  Deadliness is not removed from the game.  It's just made much more difficult than 'find someone who can go here' or 'find someone who can kill this thing'.  There's steps in the chain, there's trust that has to be exerted, there's room for bullying and betrayal, and it becomes a motivator for plots in and of itself.

Don't talk to me about the deep magic, for I was there.

LOL

No I get you, and we used to have a lot less random snake bites too. Like i said, I'm down for moving things around and putting other threats in their place.
And Bloodburn could be more or less ignored back then.

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

Lethal poisons are good for the game, especially on critters. But I get you, it is really annoying to go through your set of Cures in a week, because you needed to make a few deliveries. And now everyones out of (redacted) and you can't make the cure you need.

But that makes a cool supply and demand IMHO.  So there's two sides to this.

[Armaddict]

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

As I said, I was thinking more along the lines of deadly poisons still exist, but the transition from nature to 'it's on my blade now' is more complex than a single skill check.  And it's a lot more based on 'for this use', rather than 'keep all my blades tainted with max poison at all times'.  There are other poisons far more useful for keeping your blades tainted, because of their longevity and reliability, versus the deadly ones, which have a process to keep their deadliness going.

I'm confident we could come up with some really cool poison effects based off of combinations of various herbs and poisons, instead of the one-shot 'farm this up' that we have now.

ETA:  And just for the record, I think bloodburn is an example of very well balanced out poison right now.  It has prolonged effects left untreated.  It has application.  It could be useful to have long-term on blades if other durations were made shorter.  Adjusting cure availability is really the only part that needs adjustment; just as much as I dislike the prevalence of deadly poisons, I dislike the prevalence of easy-to-access cures for non-lethal poisons.

[Fredd]

But Where are we drawing the line on this? Wezers lose their poison? No more bloodburn snakes? Kryl lose there many varied poisons?

As I said, I was thinking more along the lines of deadly poisons still exist, but the transition from nature to 'it's on my blade now' is more complex than a single skill check.  And it's a lot more based on 'for this use', rather than 'keep all my blades tainted with max poison at all times'.  There are other poisons far more useful for keeping your blades tainted, because of their longevity and reliability, versus the deadly ones, which have a process to keep their deadliness going.

I'm confident we could come up with some really cool poison effects based off of combinations of various herbs and poisons, instead of the one-shot 'farm this up' that we have now.

ETA:  And just for the record, I think bloodburn is an example of very well balanced out poison right now.  It has prolonged effects left untreated.  It has application.  It could be useful to have long-term on blades if other durations were made shorter.  Adjusting cure availability is really the only part that needs adjustment; just as much as I dislike the prevalence of deadly poisons, I dislike the prevalence of easy-to-access cures for non-lethal poisons.

After thinking about it, it would be cool if ytou base poisons were natural. And maybe with brew or Poisoning, you can refine it to a deadlier version, or one that lasts longer on the blade. Maybe the taint looses some strngth when dried, so it's stronger in say a snake. So the world doesn't lose lethality, but gains rp.

[mansa]

I think a poison that causes 'blindness' would be cool.

I think it would have three levels of poison:
Level 1 - You can't see the next room.
Level 2 - It's dark in the room, but you can still move room to room.  (NOT "You stumble and etc..")
Level 3 - Blindness

[Lotion]

I think a poison that causes 'blindness' would be cool.

I think it would have three levels of poison:
Level 1 - You can't see the next room.
Level 2 - It's dark in the room, but you can still move room to room.  (NOT "You stumble and etc..")
Level 3 - Blindness

There is already a source of nonmagical blindness in game that also comes from something that applies poison, so this would be very appropriate.

[Lotion]

It would be nice to have a poison that applies the coded firebreather effect of pepperbelly and then have nonmagical sources of that effect changed to use the poison effect rather than the magical effect.

[The Gruffalo]

Poison was primarily available to classes that needed them to level the playing field. Even when provided a blade coated in poisons, the best fighters in the game didn't typically have master backstab, or scan-- they had journeyman or advanced at best, and that was with extended subguilds. Now, with the class changes, the best fighters can and do have backstab to master and can also sneak/hide to a reasonable level, especially since there's so much sneak/hide+ gear out there but scan is so weak in counter. Then they often have magick subclasses on top of that arsenal of deadliness.  This removed the balance that existed between warriors/rangers/assassins.

It is the class changes that have made poisons feel even more unbalanced and stronger, and easier to get than they ever were, despite the changes to animal AI. In the past, you NEEDED poison, treachery, and guile if you wanted to win against a stronger opponent, and barring one circumstance (that is now changed) heavy-hitting poison was dangerous to acquire. That is no longer the case. So, now the stronger opponents have what you have, and they can fight better than you can, so all you can do is hide from them-- and hiding all the time is difficult for someone trying to play a character who interacts with others and behaves in a realistic fashion.

If we're sticking with this class system, poisoning absolutely needs a revamp.

Getting cures should remain difficult. The poisons That Can Kill You rather than Mildly Inconvenience You should not be on heavily trafficked areas of the gameworld. Snakes could give you grishen rather than bloodburn. That's scary, but it's not immediately deadly.

I'd lobby to change general poison (aka, bloodburn) into a steady debuff of hitpoints that caps out at maybe 75% of your max health and gradually wears off once it's run its course, leaving you much weaker for a while, but not killing you unless you run into some other threat that does kill you because you've been weakened. I'd also change terradin to make you unable to eat or drink without throwing up, but once you've emptied your stomach, you stop throwing up, you just feel too ill to eat (echoing real life physical illnesses). So, unless you cure it, you may slowly dehydrate and starve to death, but it's not an instant death sentence.

Both of these changes would still make you a weaker, easier target, and have many applications for those who are the torturer, kidnapper, and assassin types. It would also help prevent the cheesy poisoning "instant win" stacking combo that has become so prevalent. Any means of ending another character's story with zero to minimal risk to yourself should be looked at and adjusted so that it's no longer the case.

After all, that's why X spell is no longer in the game.

In short, I don't think poisons by themselves should kill you. I think they should make it easier TO kill you.

Poisons as they exist currently are very binary. I'd like to see more nuance and less deadliness and more utility applications. People love the old magick system because the spells had synergy that could be combined to help you accomplish a goal that wasn't possible with mundane abilities. It'd be great to see poisons become similar to that, and would help build a mundane toolbox that cuts down on the necessity of using magicks in many scenarios, where currently they require magick for a chance of success.

In short, use poisons and introduce auxiliary skills to widen the mundane toolbox and remove or debuff instant-win buttons like peraine and heramide. I.E., introduce binding with rope (with ways to counter), blindfolding (with ways to counter), poisons that interfere with mobility but aren't paralytics, current paralytics and sleeping poisons kick in slower, poisons that interfere with use of the Way but aren't x. Skellebaine could use a readjustment, as well, as the way it exists now can be jarring with the way the echoes change, interfering with your ability to roleplay a hallucinatory narrative, and some of the echoed side effects feel... unnecessary.

Or maybe poop humor just isn't my style.

tl;dr:
The class changes had a ripple impact on how poisons are acquired and used, and on the balance of power in the game.

No more "instant button" poisons, and no more poisons that kill you outright. Instead, widen the availability and type of poisons to inflict various detrimental effects. Use existing magickal spells as ideas and templates for these poisons. Let poisons be crafted which can be used on weapons, keep the brewed vials as they are but expand the available recipes and curatives (there's more than enough potential taste combinations left to do so). Leave the natural poison sources in place, but rework the deadlier poisons (heramide, peraine, terradin) so that they're not stackable instant-win buttons with zero risk to the aggressor when applied at stealth range.

Make skellebaine very effective and easily applied to help it be a mundane counter against x and x, but rework it so it's closer to the way it originally was re: echoes, and remove the extra upset-stomach that was introduced to it.

If you really want something like that, perhaps split that out to a separate poison. I can see Fales pranking each other with that one.

Changing skellebaine to what it is now removed a lot of RP opportunities and tribal rituals that were based around it.

[Dresan]

Poison needs to change.

There are a few problems:

1. Poisons are either too strong or too weak.
2. Poisons are found, not made. Once the knowledge spreads, the staff have to go in to change things around to try to 'balance' the game out.
3. IC knowledge for both poisons and cures is mostly spread OOCly. Making both poisons and cures very common and lackluster.

In my mind, poison making should be a crafting skill. There should be less encounters with powerful poisons in nature, and rubbing glands or crap on weapons you got from just skinning something or picked off the ground needs to go away. The potency of the poison should be tied with the skill. Equally the potency of the cure should be tied to skill. Those with the skill should be able to assess how good a cure or poison is based on quality.

Peraine and heramine should go away. But Bloodburn, Grishen, skellebane should be GREATLY strengthened. On top of that, cures should not actually instantly cure you, instead they should half the duration and effect in most cases depending on the quality of that cure. Skellebane should be strengthened the most, but the duration should be decreased to 30 mins. Skellebane should take effect instantly, and prevent looking at anything direction and cause of much much higher chance of running the wrong way or move at all regardless of any additional skills. However, a cure would decrease the effects to 15 mins and of course, it should not effect your ability to fight.

The above means that cures will still be great to have, and should save your life if you take them early enough, but having a stack of cures doesn't make poisons any less scary, nor does the ability to e;e;e;e;w;eat cure automatically save your life under certain situations. At the same time poisons alone won't immediately win any fights for you like peraine and heramide, but certainly turn things in your favor if you have the skill or know someone that does and have additional skills to back them up.

All clans should have NPC that can teach you how to make any cure for a price. Certain clans should also have an NPC that can teach you how to make poisons for a price. The game needs to do more to avoid adding 'IC knowledge' to the game where the only way to find out is OOC means. (staff having to step in to tell you, even through animations, is ooc in my books)

[Fredd]

2. Poisons are found, not made. Once the knowledge spreads, the staff have to go in to change things around to try to 'balance' the game out.

I invite you to reread help brew.

[mansa]

2. Poisons are found, not made. Once the knowledge spreads, the staff have to go in to change things around to try to 'balance' the game out.

I invite you to reread help brew.

The primary way to poison weapons is to find a poison item in the world, and then apply it to your weapons.
You cannot brew a poison and then apply it to your weapons.  Applying it to weapons is the issue.

[Riev]

On a recent character I can't talk about yet, I specifically made them with the intention of using the brewed poisons. Its possibly my playtimes never meshed up, but I found people were not interested in the brewed poisons at all.

The advantage of brewed poison is that ANYONE can poison someone's food/water. You don't need the poison skill, just the item.
The disadvantage is that very few people use poisons in this manner. Its main usage is being applied to weapons.

I cannot imagine how it would feel if brewed poisons could be applied to weapons by someone WITHOUT the poison skill.
I would HOPE those poisons would become very cost prohibitive, because letting a 0-day PC apply the strongest poisons to their weapon because they found a vial could become quite upsetting.

I think if we shifted more towards "that creature's glands are USED in a brew process to make a poison", I could get behind that. I could also get behind needing the poison skill @ Master to use a poison vial on a weapon. After all, it requires more than "dump this on your blade and its poisoned forever" kind of expertise, no?

[Armaddict]

After all, it requires more than "dump this on your blade and its poisoned forever" kind of expertise, no?

I don't think it is, honestly (but that doesn't mean I don't think it should be for gameplay purposes).  Really, having a 'poison' skill is really centrally focused on PvP in Arm, when in reality, I'd think poison as a skill would be very based not just on knowledge, mixes, proportions, bases, and basically the beginnings of chemistry, but also knowing how to deal with it in the wild.

It's a little weird that which affects of poisons tell everyone which type of poison, just through common knowledge.  It's weird that it's just common knowledge what has cures and what doesn't.  This would -all- be under the purview of poisoning in a realistic setting.  If we could find some way of expanding THAT part of poisoning, then that would be a single-handed change to how poisons interact with players; imagine NOT being able to tell which poison that snake gave you, or how to combat it, or what effect it was actually having on your health or whether it would kill you or not.  Imagine NOT knowing which plants had poisons that could enter your body through mere skin contact, when you're out in a hunting group. You'd be looking for someone who knew about poisons so fast.

The fact that we don't have that latter part is what balances out the restriction on poisons that are presented as 'necessity', despite the utilitarianism of using poisons in the first place.

[X-D]

It is no secret I do not like the way poisons work.

There are also very few suggestions in this thread I would be for...few here and there, But I am not going to call out on either side.

If I had my way I would aim for creative poisons with utility.

Almost no poison would be an outright death sentence.

IE...

Peraine, Gone.
Heramide, Drastic rework
Bloodburn, Minor rework.

I would make it so that ALL poisons took some time to even begin working.

IRL, there are NO natural poisons that work instantly....Some are very fast, minutes to notice affect...minutes to death.

I would make cures take time to begin working as well. Both would have a ramp up and peak effectiveness.

Potency of crafted cures and poisons would be based on skill. But even a novice cure would have some affect on even a master brewed poison.

Now, types/examples of what I mean by creative/utility.

Heramide: Rework to a fast acting narcolepsy, Get hit with it, in a few seconds if master level, minutes if lower, chance to get dizzy, Means you stop action, fall off mount, possibly fall down, A bit later the chance to fall asleep starts to hit, But only for a second. As the poison runs its course, at peak you might be falling asleep and waking up a couple times a minute.

New poison: Call it, Oh, Numb-hand (I know, somebody could do better) Hit with it, hands and feet begin to lose feeling, as it progresses You lose the ability to pick things up, eventually to hold or manipulate anything at all. But also your unarmed damage goes up because you cannot feel when you are hurting yourself.

Grishen: It should just be slow. As in it slows all metabolic processes, At peak you would essentially be a sloth, You certainly would not want to ride, sloth reaction time, How many rooms traveled before you manage to stop the mount? (but have possible helpful uses)

Bloodburn should return to doing actual damage, The amount should not be huge. But your natural healing slows and eventually stops, This effect should last a while (not like RL days or anything, say 2-3 game days) During this time, you will only slowly heal while bandaged and resting. The cure of course simply reduces the time.

I think somebody mentioned one for blinding, I like that, but one should never go fully blind. At peak they see blurs and faint shapes and can still make out directions.

I would leave Skell mostly as is.

Terradin, I would get rid of the puke to death. I think I would make it one of the few poisons that could kill somebody. But it would be through starvation/dehydration, and take a reasonable length of time.

I would also make ones that give say:
Tinnitus

Night blindness

Light sensitive, Basically blind during the day or in any well lit area, but better vision at night.

Vertigo: No climbing for you, In fact, going up at all might be rather hard.

Agoraphobia: Have it be random on which one hits you, open spaces, crowds etc.

Anyway, That is what I have.

[roughneck]

Bloodburn: Combat utility poison. Near immediate onset. Have it do 50-60 hp max. Impedes healing or max HP until cured.

Perraine: Change to much slower onset, and the paralysis should make you go limp instead of rigid, laying on the ground in a helpless puddle.

Grishen: I like X-D's idea.

Heramide: Medium onset, drowsiness that leads to in and out of consciousness.

Terradin: I never understood how you puke to death, but there's no shitting involved!? Get with the program.

[Armaddict]

I just hope these changes actually make things better / more fun. In my opinion the cure changes just made a hassle. It's also going to be annoying that staff and their pcs will know all the ins and outs of this system and the rest of us,  those without staff buddies anyway,  will be in the dark. I hope the help files don't try and hide stuff or certain subguilds will get special access to a more detailed helpfile.

The cure changes are actually exactly what a lot of the playerbase asked for, but working within an existing system as best able.

As far as knowledge, that's actually a large part of the problem.  It'd be neat if we added some element of randomization to herbalism that was not the same as making knowledge useless, that made it the SKILL and not game knowledge that made poisoning and poison cures useful.

[Dune Bunny]

I'd like to see the Brew and Poison skills have an assess appendage to a cure to tell/hint at what it cures.

ass -v Excedrin
-It is a cure.
-It has a white tint.
-This is product placement.
-It would be useful against headaches.

This could be tied to the skill level on whether one would know or not. A novice brew likely wouldn't give information on a heramide cure, and so forth. This might give brewers, or "honest" poisoners a means of making a few extra bucks with chaotic Byn and Militia folks that toss all their oddly colored and shapes capsules in one bag, and then delete their text file of what does what. 

(I know Analyze more or less does the same thing via ingredients required for the craft, but seeing a verified result through assess just seems superior to me, especially through ease of use.)

As for poisons overall, I primarily think (as I've said before about most herbs) that finding them/ingredients shouldn't be so simple. Have spawns randomized over an area, with each room having a chance to spawn something, or nothing.

-Burp Leaves can be found only in the SW Red Desert.
-Fart Blossoms are also found here.
-This area has X amount of rooms.
-Each room has a 60% chance to spawn nothing. 25% chance to spawn Fart Blossoms. 15% chance to spawn Burp Leaves.

This would kill the whole idea of 'I need X. Let me grab my mount...'
e e e e e e e e n n e e e e n e e
'pick x'
w w s w w w w s s w w w w w w w w.
"I'll teach that stuck up aide to spam walk past me, mwahaha!"

[Nao]

I just hope these changes actually make things better / more fun. In my opinion the cure changes just made a hassle. It's also going to be annoying that staff and their pcs will know all the ins and outs of this system and the rest of us,  those without staff buddies anyway,  will be in the dark. I hope the help files don't try and hide stuff or certain subguilds will get special access to a more detailed helpfile.

The cure changes are actually exactly what a lot of the playerbase asked for, but working within an existing system as best able.

As far as knowledge, that's actually a large part of the problem.  It'd be neat if we added some element of randomization to herbalism that was not the same as making knowledge useless, that made it the SKILL and not game knowledge that made poisoning and poison cures useful.

We tend to suggest more complex, realistic mechanics and assume it will be really cool, but a lot of the time it just turns out to be tedious and distracts from RP because you need to 'grind' instead of spending your time roleplaying.

[Halaster]

As far as knowledge, that's actually a large part of the problem.  It'd be neat if we added some element of randomization...

So this is what got me thinking about an overhaul in the first place - people using OOC knowledge from friends, or past characters, or whatever to know exactly where to go get poisons and how.  Originally my plan was just to deal with availability, but now I think it's going to be a bigger project.   But in terms of availability I do plan to add in radomization where things are found.  Instead of "the turd fruit that gives grishen is found 3e2n of the road", it will be "the turd fruit is found in the Grey Forest", and it randomly loads around there making people go look for it.  Less potent things will be more available and easier to find, more potent things will not.

I'm also thinking of doing something where having the poisoning skill makes it easier to find them or spot them from a distance, or something.  I'd like to somehow incorporate the poisoning skill in the gathering process to a lesser degree.

[Riev]

Can you tie "skinned" poison items into the poisoning skill and/or skinning? Like, if you understand a terradin-bug's anatomy, you can skin the gland, but if you understand the poison applications, you also have a decent chance?


What if, on the cures side of the discussion AND the poisons, that there's an efficacy rating tied to skill and dice rolls, like most other skills. Like, you know that a dandelion and an oak leaf will make a bloodburn cure IN MOST CASES, but if you're not good enough or aren't using tools, its got a chance of not being useful. It still assesses as the right cure, it still shows (whatever it shows) that its a proper cure, but maybe it doesn't work "as well"?

I know that would require having a whole new variable and interactions, but it might satisfy a lot of concerns. Crafted poisons have higher efficacy than skinned poisons, but skinned poisons are still usable. Cures can be super effective if made by a master apothecary with tools, but even a novice can make something that will stop the pain of bloodburn for a little bit.

[Armaddict]

As far as knowledge, that's actually a large part of the problem.  It'd be neat if we added some element of randomization...

So this is what got me thinking about an overhaul in the first place - people using OOC knowledge from friends, or past characters, or whatever to know exactly where to go get poisons and how.  Originally my plan was just to deal with availability, but now I think it's going to be a bigger project.   But in terms of availability I do plan to add in radomization where things are found.  Instead of "the turd fruit that gives grishen is found 3e2n of the road", it will be "the turd fruit is found in the Grey Forest", and it randomly loads around there making people go look for it.  Less potent things will be more available and easier to find, more potent things will not.

I'm also thinking of doing something where having the poisoning skill makes it easier to find them or spot them from a distance, or something.  I'd like to somehow incorporate the poisoning skill in the gathering process to a lesser degree.

I don't care what everyone says about you, you're great.

ETA:  Maybe to incorporate the poison...maybe just because you pick the leaf doesn't mean you got the poison.  Just because you got the gland, doesn't mean you got the poison.  You can't tell.  The poisoner can tell.  'Harvesting' poison isn't as easy as 'I found the thing!'.  It's 'I found the thing!' + 'I know about the thing!' + 'I know how to harvest the thing!' + 'I can tell I got the thing!'.  Just a chance that what you do harvest is benign, based off your poisoning or brew skill or both.

[Brytta Léofa]

Hal, "SimDesert for plants" sounds like a great change. Roleplay-wise, the experience should certainly be "look in the right area," not "look at coordinate x,y."

I suggest that the plant density should increase in most areas if you're randomizing locations. Otherwise players will have to spend much more stamina just to come up with anything at all, and big stamina sinks are a drag for the most part.

Exceptions: Rare/dangerous plants should stay rare. Some areas already have high plant density that maybe doesn't need to increase.

[mansa]

My wish is that the game is explicit with "What is this item I have?" - if you are skilled enough.


examples:

assess -v poison.gland
This is poison!

versus

assess -v poison.gland
This is grishen poison!


and

analyze tablet
You taste this tablet, and it is made of cold, hot

versus
analyze tablet
You taste this tablet, and it is made of cold, hot
This tablet cures grishen

[Tisiphone]

the post is right above this one, go read it

I'd love this. Especially if it were skill-gated. At lower skills you could see material information, while at higher you could see coded usefulness.

Then, an only half-serious suggestion: make flavour combinations change effects based on clan.

[Patuk]

As far as knowledge, that's actually a large part of the problem.  It'd be neat if we added some element of randomization...

So this is what got me thinking about an overhaul in the first place - people using OOC knowledge from friends, or past characters, or whatever to know exactly where to go get poisons and how.  Originally my plan was just to deal with availability, but now I think it's going to be a bigger project.   But in terms of availability I do plan to add in radomization where things are found.  Instead of "the turd fruit that gives grishen is found 3e2n of the road", it will be "the turd fruit is found in the Grey Forest", and it randomly loads around there making people go look for it.  Less potent things will be more available and easier to find, more potent things will not.

I'm also thinking of doing something where having the poisoning skill makes it easier to find them or spot them from a distance, or something.  I'd like to somehow incorporate the poisoning skill in the gathering process to a lesser degree.

If you want to incorporate poison skill mattering in finding some, you caaaaan try adding a forage poison command, perhaps.

[ShaiHulud]

Having an interest and some experience with the topics, I'd like to suggest this. There are herbs used for varied bandages/poultices already, combinations and such. Perhaps expanding their usefulness and creation. (using more herbs and plants) Different herbed wraps that combat or aid to deal with the varied and perhaps new taints?

To add, randomizing locations of taints is a great change. Like done with trees now I'd suspect.  Zoned, findable, but not always growing the same place.

[Halaster]

Closing this thread out soon, so if you're blood is burning with ideas post them before it's too late.

[Halaster]

Removed a post that had nothing to do with poisons.

[Dan]

The ability to craft safer versions for the purpose of micro-dosing and building immunity would be kinda cool.

[Riev]

The ability to craft safer versions for the purpose of micro-dosing and building immunity would be kinda cool.

Literal quote from Shalooonsh:

"So. To be clear... you -purposefully- drank this whole vial of <poison>?"
... Uh. Yeah. For Science?
"... Alright so here's what you're going to do for the next few days you play...."

[LindseyBalboa]

More deadly poisons.

More non-deadly poisons.

More poisons with visible effects.

More poisons. Zalanthas is a world that's trying to kill everyone all the time anyway, bring on the variety.

[Dan]

The ability to craft safer versions for the purpose of micro-dosing and building immunity would be kinda cool.

Literal quote from Shalooonsh:

"So. To be clear... you -purposefully- drank this whole vial of <poison>?"
... Uh. Yeah. For Science?
"... Alright so here's what you're going to do for the next few days you play...."

Micro-dosing! Maybe must be made by only a poisoner + medical class combo.

Minor sidebar on that- certain poison crafts may require different combinations of class and subclass.

[Dresan]

Alright since this thread is closing soon I'm posting ideas/summaries of how I respectfully believe the system would work best:

1. Peraine and heramide should be removed. But Bloodburn, Grishen, skellebane should be strengthened. Terradin should be somewhat weaker and rather short lived.

2, Skellebain should take immediate effect. Those effects should include going the wrong direction way much more often regardless of any skills, and additionly the player would be unfocused(unable to look at anything directly). It should also be instant but short lived (half an IC day at most), even shorter duration with cure or mash so its dangerous but not really annoying. Abiet scary, much more paranoia seeing things more akin of creatures walking in and attacking you or arrows/knives/darts flying in and hitting you in various. Is it the poison or is it real? A player shouldn't be able to tell until its over, the messages looking real. It'll be an intense couple of minutes either way without someone you trust to talk to you. 

3. Poisons in nature should be much MUCH weaker or none existant with exception to remote dangerous animals. (Maybe Zalantians became hardy to common snake poisons a long time ago*shrug*)

4. Poison players need to be worried about should be crafted. However the players who can craft them, should not be the best person to apply them.

5. Crafted poisons should be dibilitating but not deadly.

-Blood burn as an example(numbers can be played with) would do only 60 damage, but 10-15 damage a tick depending on potency/endurance. Taking a cure reduces damage by 50 percent and slows tick time, it would do nothing about the after effects of being poisoned(no hp recovery at the level of the damage taken), taking a mash reduces damage by 75% and help the person recover quickly from the after effects.

-Grishen should have almost similar effects as blood burn but to both stamina and stun instead, and have an after effect that would last much longer that make even walking in the city, wilderness(moreso) or fighting slightly tiresome on your stam as well, not to mention prevent you from recovering stam and stun completely. Again dangerous EVEN with cures/mashes but not really deadly by themselves.

-Terradin- Two or three waterskin and some extra food should be all that is needed to get a hardy human/dwarf through this ordeal. It should last only about an IC day. shorter with cures, with no lasting effects. It should only dangerous if you have no access to food or water in a timely manner.

-Lastly poison damage would still not stack but you can get poisoned again while still suffering from after effects which again would last quite a noticable amount of time( 2-3 IC days of logged in time), maybe a bit more than currently without taking mash

6. Split current brewing and create a new skill called skill Poison brewing. These poisons would still need to be applied by the poison skill. This is the breakdown of how the skills would change:

-Brewing- creates cures and mashes(along with other nice things,etc). Quality of cure goes up based on mastery of skill. Quality = potency. Max potency for cures reduces poison damage at 50%. Cures should decay, a very slow decay, as they decay they lose some quality/potency.  Assess knowledge if stuff in hand is a viable cure ingredient.
-Poison brewing- creates poisons in vials or in sacks that need to be applied to weapons. Quality of the poison goes up based on mastery of the skill. Quality= potency. Poison sacks should decay within a reasonable amount of time and as they decay they lose quality/potency. Assess knowledge if the stuff in hand is a viable poison ingredient.
-Poisoning skill- applies poison to a weapon. Poisons on weapons decay after a certain amount of time. With max skill it should be about two IC days or so. Greater poisoning skill should also increase  likelyhood poison takes effect (at max level, a player should be able to poison dwarves reliably). Assess should also allow someone with this skill to determine if someone is suffering from or has been poisoned and is still suffering from the after affects.

Lastly brew and poison brew should also allow you to forage for those ingredients in wilderness(on top of the ones you can find/hunt) and even some sewer/city environments. Where more remote and dangerous= easier to find and chance of better quality. Finding quality incredients should improve success when crafting(it would still fail noticably at master with poor ingredients), but potency, that should be based on skill imo reducing any significant need for OOC information spreading in this regard.

7. The players who are good at making poison should not be good at applying it and taking advantage of it. Miscreant/stalker would get poison making at current brew making levels but should trade poisioning skill with infiltrator/scouts. In short to take full advantage of poisons to murder someone without the right mundane subguilds it takes a two player job. Someone to make the poison and someone else with the skills to make the most of it. Cures are still very useful if poisoned or at risk of being poisoned.  Vendors can still sell cures but they should be much more expensive than they are now. After all people with no enemies who walk on the beaten path shouldn't be at risk of poison, and remember poison alone won't ever kill you.   

Overall I believe if some or all the changes above were to occur it would increase playability options for players, making poisons a useful tool to open up RP opportunities while at the same time not making it one sided or fustrating for anyone on the recieving end like the current system.

[mansa]

Just something I was looking into:

Character Stats 2021:
Subclasses that get 'Poison'
1 Karma - Touched Drovian  (advanced)   (0.08%)
1 Karma - Slipknife  (advanced)       (2.03%)

Classes that get 'Poison'
Fence (advanced)    (3.54%)
Miscreant (master)   (9.98%)
Stalker (master)    (12.65%)
Infiltrator (advanced)    (6.76%)
Scout (advanced)    (12.39%)
~47% of all characters that were created in 2021 had access to the poison skill.  (This doesn't mean active population, as people may make 10 scouts in a row and die, whereas one person might make 1 fence and live for 10 months)

I would like to see a 0 karma subclass get poisoning cap at high Journeyman.

[Dresan]

I would like to see a 0 karma subclass get poisoning cap at high Journeyman.

While I posted some long winded ideas, in reality I would just settle for poison not to suck because you have 30 cures in your pocket, and the guy poisoning you has no OOC friends to tell them where the 'good' stuff is.    

If these issues are somehow addressed I would prefer less people having poison making and poison coating skills without some trust. 

Either way, it was fun to visit and post again, I will keep checking in periodically to see what if any updates are eventually made to poisons.

[Spiceoflife]

Please as the game sits don't make poisoning something that requires 2 people. That was done with some crafting and other things and made it near impossible to get things done

[Halaster]

Please as the game sits don't make poisoning something that requires 2 people. That was done with some crafting and other things and made it near impossible to get things done

Random idea that has no guarantee of happening, but a "Poison Crafting" subguild might be interesting.  They would have all the necessary skills to do all the poison and cure work, but that might be the only guild or subguild that does.

[Fredd]

Please as the game sits don't make poisoning something that requires 2 people. That was done with some crafting and other things and made it near impossible to get things done

Random idea that has no guarantee of happening, but a "Poison Crafting" subguild might be interesting.  They would have all the necessary skills to do all the poison and cure work, but that might be the only guild or subguild that does.

Isn't this already Apothecary?

[Halaster]

Please as the game sits don't make poisoning something that requires 2 people. That was done with some crafting and other things and made it near impossible to get things done

Random idea that has no guarantee of happening, but a "Poison Crafting" subguild might be interesting.  They would have all the necessary skills to do all the poison and cure work, but that might be the only guild or subguild that does.

Isn't this already Apothecary?

They don't currently get poisoning.

[Fredd]

Please as the game sits don't make poisoning something that requires 2 people. That was done with some crafting and other things and made it near impossible to get things done

Random idea that has no guarantee of happening, but a "Poison Crafting" subguild might be interesting.  They would have all the necessary skills to do all the poison and cure work, but that might be the only guild or subguild that does.

Isn't this already Apothecary?

They don't currently get poisoning.

Correct, they can't apply poisons to things. But Poisoning isn't used for the creation of poisons, brew is.

So the people that make and cure the poisons are already one subclass. Unless you are going to change this with the update?  The ability to make poisons is sort of weak, but I thought that was more "the right people haven't pushed this further" then a system thing. Was I wrong?

[Brokkr]

I assume you mean when you make a tablet/vial and sometimes it poisons you.  Those objects are not the right object type to poison.  They are meant to be side affects, not a method to poison someone.

[Delirium]

You can literally brew poison. Actual poison. Poison to poison people with.

(Please read that in tongue-in-cheek Emporer's New Groove "Kuzco" meme voice)

You just can't apply that brewed poison to weapons, you have to get it in their system by force-feeding or tricking them into it.

Which has been done to great effect and is a solid tactic in the mundane toolbox.

I'm in the camp of "make poisons debilitating and annoying rather than outright deadly", beyond that everything else has been said.

[Alesan]

When people say "outright deadly" in reference to certain poisons, do they mean "functionally disabling"? Because there are poisons that are disabling that are not directly deadly, but are deadly in the sense that you are basically guaranteed dead in most situations because of their disabling properties. It's probably an important distinction to make for the discussion.

[X-D]

Cannot speak for others, But I mean Terradin, Methelinoc and for most, bloodburn in current incarnations. That type of deadly.

And most people have already commented on changing or removing the stuff that is not in itself deadly but putting you in a position where death is assured in many situations.

[Armaddict]

Kind of depends on how the curing is done.  Terradin would not considered deadly by me in the past because of how historically easy it was to cure/find cures.  Mostly I refer specifically to instant pure disables and methelinoc.

I'm not saying they should not be in the game.  I'm saying such strong tools should require preparation that is difficult, otherwise they would be in weaker forms in some way, shape, or form.  There are other means of establishing the same effects in game that are skill based, and I'm saying these should be skill based as well, essentially.  Just a different skill of preparation.  The goal being: Create less fear around random skirmishes.  More small combat that is non-lethal as much as possible WITHOUT the 'trust the other player not to kill you' complex that has historically failed.

[Halaster]

No more feedback for a couple of weeks, I think we're good.  Thanks for all the replies!