Idea: Climb Assess. A way to gauge the difficulty and distance of a climb.

[Veselka]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I agree that the climbing system (like most things DIKU) is pretty binary. It'd be cool if someone who IS skilled at climbing (or sneaking, or hiding, or so on) can provide a passive bonus if they want to. It would simulate (and go alongside) the idea that someone is guiding you through how to use the tools, how to climb, where to put your feet and hands, and so on.

But yeah -- If you are expecting that someone with absolutely no idea how to climb goes by themselves with hella equipment to climb something...I think it is completely realistic they'd look very silly as they are falling and hitting their head on the ground. Tools/Equipment require understanding and experience to utilize. If you don't have the experience, the tool/equipment will not make your life easier, it may in fact make it more cumbersome and difficult.

As an example, in my craft IRL, if I have a job that takes me 2 hours with a handsaw and files, but with a bandsaw takes me 20 seconds, you are right in thinking I will use the bandsaw every time. But if I did not know how to use the bandsaw, my chances of cutting my fingers off are very high, my chances of breaking the blade are very high, my chances of injuring myself are very high.

Similarly, I think that climbing equipment (or any +skill equipment) SHOULD require the skill to allow for bonuses. BUT, I think there should be a way to stack this 'Tool' option, like with a rope or climbing grapple, more than +1. I think there should be the ability to temporarily add a skill at novice for 10 minutes if someone teaches it to you, with a cool down of like 1 RL hour.

I also think there should be like 4 difficulties for climbing rooms, similar to lock picks/pickable locks.

Difficulty 1 - Easy for those who can climb, somewhat challenging for those without (Steep grade hill, bouldering, etc)
Difficulty 2 - Moderate challenge for those who can climb but doable especially with equipment, hard for those without climb.
Difficulty 3 - Challenging for those who can climb, moderate for those who can climb but have equipment. Almost impossible for those without climb.
Difficulty 4 - Very Challenging for those who can climb, Challenging for those who can climb but have equipment. Impossible for those without climb.

[mansa]

Re:   items that give + to skills and DikuMUD code logic.

I was thinking about this problem.  The problem seems to be that if you don't have the skill, you don't benefit from any +skill items, unless additional code has been written.


I was thinking of a simple solution.
What if...
* Everybody had every skill at 1%.
* It was 'hidden' from the skill list unless your proficiency was greater than 1.

This would work for skinning, crafting, climbing, bash, disarm, peek, and every other skill out there.

[Fredd]

Like sunslits with direction sense, there is specific code that if you equip a "climbing" type tool, you will get a bonus in the climbing calculations directly.  This only applies to the first tool of this type equipped.  That is different from + skill on the item, and on which the bonuses do stack.  The bonus for a climbing tool is intended to help eventually get someone out of a jam, not be to be climbing around okay, if they don't have the skill.  If you don't have the skill, it is intended to be difficult.

Oh Snap, I always thought it was additive if you didn't have the skill This is good to know.

God I love that staff actually talk about this stuff now.

[Alesan]

Re:   items that give + to skills and DikuMUD code logic.

I was thinking about this problem.  The problem seems to be that if you don't have the skill, you don't benefit from any +skill items, unless additional code has been written.


I was thinking of a simple solution.
What if...
* Everybody had every skill at 1%.
* It was 'hidden' from the skill list unless your proficiency was greater than 1.

This would work for skinning, crafting, climbing, bash, disarm, peek, and every other skill out there.

But that would let people do things they didn't create the character for.

[Jihelu]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Except weapons have a damage stat to them, and a better hitting sword still hits hard in the hand of an unskilled user. It's just less effective overall.

And yes, I did think about it.
If I have climbing gear, I'll do better regardless of my skill with it or know how. A 'Oh you have gear heres a small buff' tag doesn't make sense. If I have a climbing spike and know nothing about climbing I'll do better than the guy who has a rope he doesn't know how to use.
If I have no idea how to climb spikes + a climbing pike is going to provide me with a bonus, but as is it just checks to see if you have 1 apparently.
This makes little sense to me.

"But yeah -- If you are expecting that someone with absolutely no idea how to climb goes by themselves with hella equipment to climb something...I think it is completely realistic they'd look very silly as they are falling and hitting their head on the ground. Tools/Equipment require understanding and experience to utilize. If you don't have the experience, the tool/equipment will not make your life easier, it may in fact make it more cumbersome and difficult."

Gloves with spikes on them to help me get a grip and a stick with a hook on the end don't require an ungodly amount of use to figure out. I imagine spikes on the bottom are the same way.
And yes, they will look silly. As even with all the added bonus I imagine they'd still be falling all the time. However right now it's painful beyond belief trying to climb without the skill.

"Similarly, I think that climbing equipment (or any +skill equipment) SHOULD require the skill to allow for bonuses. BUT, I think there should be a way to stack this 'Tool' option, like with a rope or climbing grapple, more than +1. I think there should be the ability to temporarily add a skill at novice for 10 minutes if someone teaches it to you, with a cool down of like 1 RL hour."
I disagree

[Yelinak]

If you don't have the skill, it is intended to be difficult.

But it's not just difficult, it's nearly impossible. Unrealistically so, in my opinion. Zalanthans, who are meant to be tougher than us, and who surely grow up in an environment that is more likely to teach you at least a little bit about climbing compared to our modern world, are worse at it by default than your average modern-day human. In my opinion, at least.

You can get out of a one-room hole without the skill, sure. You even have a fair shot at two upwards climb rooms if you have a full stamina bar. But climbing down without the skill is just about impossible. You're nearly guaranteed to fail. It feels wrong. It feels like it shouldn't be that way.

As I mentioned, I took a group into an underground place with many climb rooms. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every member of the group who didn't have the climb skill fell on literally every downwards climb. A 100% failure rate across a multi-hour RPT for every character without the climb skill. Nobody without the skill ever succeeded in climbing downwards without falling. We all had a full set of climbing equipment. Harness, gloves, boots, spurs, rope.

I see no reason it should be this way. It doesn't feel realistic, it isn't good gameplay, and it discourages adventure. After experiencing that, I will never again attempt to climb on a character that doesn't have the skill. I didn't expect to be Spiderman, but it was really jarring and was highly disruptive to the RPT.

Is it possible to make it so that climbing equipment helps even without the skill? If yes, why not make it so? If no, is it really 100% impossible? If that's genuinely the case then oh well, but otherwise I very much think it warrants a change.

[Yelinak]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

[Brytta Léofa]

Getting back to the OP...

Proposal - Allow players to use assess <direction> to get information about the climb based on their level of climb skill like craft does.

Code Select Expand

>Assess South

Heading south requires a climb. 
This climb would be effortless for you.


2.  There is no way to know how far a fall can be when you are approaching a descending climb.

Proposal - Allow for the ability to look down in a direction:

Code Select Expand

>Look down south

Looking over the edge to the south you look down.
[Very far]
Nothing.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
Nothing.

Since climbs don't have a difficulty level set, I suggest the following streamlined version: simply append climbing information to the beginning of every "look <dir>" command. Encoded fall distance as "danger." Like so:

For a one-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require climbing.
[Near]
Nothing.

For a two-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require a dangerous climb.
[Near]
Nothing.

For a three-or-more-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require a very dangerous climb.
[Near]
Nothing.

(I'm also generally in favor of the looking-around-corners idea. But this is a fairly simple fix for the specific problem.)

[X-D]

I just have to say, IRL, climbing down is always WAY harder then climbing up...more scary too.

But you should be able to look down the darn hole/cliff without needing to beat a climb check.

[Fredd]

I just have to say, IRL, climbing down is always WAY harder then climbing up...more scary too.

But you should be able to look down the darn hole/cliff without needing to beat a climb check.

Maybe Peek can be used to look over edges, like pick is used to get branches and fruit ect.? (might be very confusing to code though)

[Lotion]

It would be so nice to be able to check if a room is a climb room without attempting to enter it

[Veselka]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

Except...

You're thinking in modern terms, where if we don't understand how something works, we can look it up on the internet, or read about it in a book.

For people completely unskilled in a craft or a 'concept', climbing spikes on ankles (which is how they are described) would absolutely be difficult to figure out and use effectively. Climbing boots with spikes in the toes 'might' be helpful depending on the surface? But you also probably don't understand how to distribute your weight, how to not find piece of rock or material that are brittle and can't support your weight, considering you have almost no idea about concepts like gravity or physics...

Anyways yeah. Tools help people with experience using other tools in the associated craft. As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

[Ender]

The point of my post is not that falls are dangerous, it's that currently there is no way for even a master climber to no HOW dangerous or if a fall is even climbable until they take the plunge.

Not being able to see over the edge means you do not know how far a drop it is.

Not being able to tell if a room is climbable or not means even a master climber might cannonball to their death because there's literally no way of telling without really vague context clues that may or may not be in the room description.

[Lotion]

Not being able to tell if a room is climbable or not means even a master climber might cannonball to their death because there's literally no way of telling without really vague context clues that may or may not be in the room description.

There's also a lot of places where the names of climb rooms vary heavily. After exploring an area where all the top climb rooms adjacent to flat ground are "over edge" and then I go near the Shield Wall and see "edge of Shield Wall" and I think ah yes, this is not over the edge and a place I can stand although it will be precarious and I should roleplay accordingly and then I fall to the ground because of how inconsistently built the game is to the point where exploration can sometimes feel like an OOC endeavor

[X-D]

That is a big one as well, I have been bitten by it.

[Riev]

Even like... a new scripted command would be helpful.

peer north:
you peer to the north, but there is no edge

peer north:
you peer to the north, and see:
minimum 3 rooms down like you would if you looked down in the room

[Jihelu]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

I've worked with tools as well for various jobs.
Therefor, you are actually wrong. Sorry. That's just how the wind blows.

[Riev]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

I've worked with tools as well for various jobs.
Therefor, you are actually wrong. Sorry. That's just how the wind blows.

I would also like to add that a sword and armor don't improve your fighting technique, but using a sword gives you more of a chance to kill something than no swords. Wearing armor is absolutely going to make it so that being stabbed by a knife hurts far less, if at all, as opposed to not wearing it.

Maybe you mean "you can't wear 2 cuirasses and get the armor bonus from both of them"?

[Brokkr]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

[Jihelu]

I don't think anyone is contesting the intentionality of it

I think the point is people don't like it and think it should change. Unless we've arbitrarily decided gravity is the greatest for to zalanthas

[Riev]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

I think people are just surprised at the change, and the attitude of "Well of course it works this way" like we all know how the code works vis-a-vis skillsheets and bonuses.

It may be me, but what I was expecting was either "You're right, and we'll look into making a change" or "This is done this way intentionally, and we currently have no desire to change it."

So. There's no "different" difficulty in climbing, so there's no way to 'gauge' success for a climb. But what about the other suggestions of "Seeing how far the drop is, without walking into an open pit"?

[Birdbrain]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

Hello, it's your friendly neighborhood birdbrain, reporting in.
I did some napkin math with the wonderful guild picker the community has built, and by my estimation, some 50% of the classes in the game have... wait for it... the climb skill!

With my totally unsolicited opinion, I'd like to voice that I think the following: Every class being able to do every verb in the game homogenizes the classes, and lowers the quality and enjoyment of picking a specific class, and playing that class fantasy.

Arguments, including some sound ones, have pointed out that it's realistic for everyone to be able to climb to some extent. I'd simply counterpoint and say that it's equally realistic that some 50% of the game should expect to plummet to their deaths because the knowledge of successfully climbing is reserved to only those IC few who can and do do it successfully. And it's entirely their prerogative if they wish to hoard or share the information.

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

[Alesan]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

[Jihelu]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

[Alesan]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

I did think about putting up a disclaimer. Yeah, heavy sarcasm.