Idea: Climb Assess. A way to gauge the difficulty and distance of a climb.

[Ender]

Currently there are two issues I see with climbing.

1.  There is no way to assess how difficult a climb is, especially from above when you may begin your climb from a room away and sometimes your only information is:

l s
To the south is Over the Edge.
[Near]
Nothing.


Proposal - Allow players to use assess <direction> to get information about the climb based on their level of climb skill like craft does.

Code Select Expand

>Assess South

Heading south requires a climb. 
This climb would be effortless for you.




2.  There is no way to know how far a fall can be when you are approaching a descending climb.

Proposal - Allow for the ability to look down in a direction:

Code Select Expand

>Look down south

Looking over the edge to the south you look down.
[Very far]
Nothing.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
Nothing.

[Jihelu]

I'd appreciate having this. It could even be 'flavored' if someone wants to cry about 'Realism!' stuff.

assess south
'You can see many handholds'
This would be a climb that's easy for someone at master, but at novice this would still suck. Effectively the 'difficulty' of the climb would be based on the room and not the climber.

assess south
'You see very few hand holds'
This would be a more difficult climb, for anyone.

I'd be fine with either a 'flat' indication of climbing difficulty, or the individualized indication. Or even both.
'There are many handholds to the south, this would be effortless for you'

[mansa]

Are there different 'difficulties' of climb rooms?   Or is there just "climb/noclimb" ?

[Jihelu]

Unless I am absolutely insane I believe certain rooms may be harder or easier to climb than others.

[Armaddict]

There is definitely a Difficulty Check.

[sucre]

Yes, please.

[FamousAmos]

100% yes. Its always the main reason I'm holding back a climb because I have no way of estimating the distance/danger/etc.

[Brokkr]

There are no climb modifiers on rooms.  You have exactly the same chance, given the modifiers from your climb skills, equipment, etc. are the same, assuming the room is climbable (it is possible to have rooms that are not climbable at all).

[Yelinak]

I wanted to bring a tangentially related topic up for discussion last year:

Unskilled climbing seems unreasonably difficult. Even an agile character with a full suit of all existing climbing gear has a pitiful chance to succeed. Climbing downwards is almost impossible if you don't have the skill. Like yeah, if you're trying to scale the Shield Wall without so much as a rope, that shouldn't be easy... but with a full suit of climbing gear, climbing down a two-room hole shouldn't be borderline impossible just because your class doesn't happen to get the skill. It's a little ridiculous how futile it is.

Rope in particular should do more. Given the importance of climbing in this game, we could really do with a feature that lets you tie a rope to something and get a considerable bonus to climbing in the next few rooms down from it, with the caveat that you can't recover the rope except from the room where it was tied. Right now, climbing without the skill feels unrealistically hard, and the code offers no way to use rope the way you actually would, as opposed to comically climbing around with a coil of rope in hand.

Something like this:

Code Select Expand

> command 'tie rope'
Ties a rope ​to the room and creates a no_take rope object in each room up to three rooms downwards from here. Rope can be
untied only in the room that it was tied in. The rope object is fixed to the room in the same way that tents are.

> command 'climb rope up/down'
When used in a room that has a tied rope in/above it, this gives a significant bonus to climb, like +50% downwards and +25% upwards.
Rope cannot be tied "upwards" for obvious reasons, but upwards climbing is boosted if a rope has previously been tied above.

> tie rope
You tie a coil of braided rope to the nearest secure point and hang it down.

> look
Dusty Rooftop [D]
The end of a coil of braided rope has been tied off here.

> climb rope down
Using a coil of braided rope, you carefully climb down.

Dusty Wall above Tek Street [UD]
A coil of braided rope hangs from above.

> climb rope down
Using a coil of braided rope, you carefully climb down.

Tek Street [NSU]
A coil of braided rope hangs from above.

> get rope
A coil of braided rope is tied securely to something above you. You'll have to untie it to retrieve it.

Point being that with the climb skill being restricted to specific classes, those without the skill are so bad at climbing that it's a bit stupid. Even if you have every possible factor in your court (high agility and climbing gear in every possible slot), your chance of success is so low that even two consecutive successes is extremely unlikely. I took a group into Undertuluk last year, and despite making sure everyone had the proper equipment, those without the climb skill spent half the time unconscious. It's sort of cartoonishly bad.

[MeTekillot]

Just like there are partial fails for riding where your mount slows down or what have you, I think partial fails for climbing could be an elegant solution where you take HP damage or stun damage, instead of hurling down a 5 room fall to your doom, or wallowing at the bottom of a sinkhole with a carru. If you partially fail a climb, you should also auto-fail any attempts to pass by a person guarding that exit, as well as auto failing any flee attempts.

[Armaddict]

There are no climb modifiers on rooms.  You have exactly the same chance, given the modifiers from your climb skills, equipment, etc. are the same, assuming the room is climbable (it is possible to have rooms that are not climbable at all).

If this is actually true, then there is some code worth examining for some truly non-explicable behavior that makes it seem the exact opposite.  Not anomalous rooms, but rather extremely consistent RNG for certain areas/conditions.

[Brytta Léofa]

I feel sure that there are rooms that describe their climbs as easy or hard. (But maybe this is just describing "not (codedly) climbing" vs "actually climbing" and I just never noticed.)

[Ender]

My issue with climb comes from the lack of information given on potential falls/downward climbs.

There is no way to tell if an "over the edge" is climbable or not, and no way to tell how far that drop is.

Honestly being able to look in more directions would really solve a lot of problems.  My wish would be the following commands could work:

look <north|south|east|west> down

And if this were implemented it could be used to look in diagonals, even if those were only limited to one room.

look north west
look north east
look south east
look south west

[Lotion]

diagonal looks would be so nice so that upon entering a room you arent surprised by a carru, mek, met, etc trying to murder you

[Brokkr]

There are no climb modifiers on rooms.  You have exactly the same chance, given the modifiers from your climb skills, equipment, etc. are the same, assuming the room is climbable (it is possible to have rooms that are not climbable at all).

If this is actually true, then there is some code worth examining for some truly non-explicable behavior that makes it seem the exact opposite.  Not anomalous rooms, but rather extremely consistent RNG for certain areas/conditions.

I can literally see the climbing calculation, as Staff, when your mortal attempts to climb.

Unskilled climbing seems unreasonably difficult. Even an agile character with a full suit of all existing climbing gear has a pitiful chance to succeed.

If you don't have the skill you will not get the +skill bonus from any worn items.  Because it needs the skill to add those to.  You will get the climbing bonus from having a tool type "climb", but that bonus is only received once.

[The Gruffalo]

That seems like something that should be fixed. If you've gone through the effort to get a full suit of climbing gear, it should actually help you climb, even if you don't have the coded skill. It doesn't make logical sense otherwise.

[Jihelu]

Lol that's hilariously awful

[Fawcett]

If you don't have the skill you will not get the +skill bonus from any worn items.  Because it needs the skill to add those to.  You will get the climbing bonus from having a tool type "climb", but that bonus is only received once.

Wait what!?!

[Brokkr]

I am not sure why you would assume otherwise.

That is the standard for how DIKU handles + skill items.

If you equip something that is + tanning, you aren't able to tan items.  If you equip something that is + pick, you aren't able to pick locks.  Etc.

I am not sure why you would think climb is any different?

[Riev]

I think partially the thought is this:

Climbing is thought of as a 'general' skill. Anyone can climb.
Equipping yourself with a rope, and climbing vest, and boots, etc... IN REAL LIFE... increases your chances of a successful climb even for a newbie.
We would assume that it works similarly in game, considering the years and years of "treat it like you would real life".

Not all of us are DIKU masters, and would not think "Oh I don't have the skill, so skill modifiers won't help".
If anything, we're DnD players who think "Well I didn't invest in the athletics skill, but this gives me a +3".


That said... maybe Climb should be a ride-adjacent style skill that only goes up to high novice for anyone that doesn't have it as a specific skill? That way, bonus gear will assist, but even fully kitted out, you're at like Jman-levels of success?

[Armaddict]

There are no climb modifiers on rooms.  You have exactly the same chance, given the modifiers from your climb skills, equipment, etc. are the same, assuming the room is climbable (it is possible to have rooms that are not climbable at all).

If this is actually true, then there is some code worth examining for some truly non-explicable behavior that makes it seem the exact opposite.  Not anomalous rooms, but rather extremely consistent RNG for certain areas/conditions.

I can literally see the climbing calculation, as Staff, when your mortal attempts to climb.

I'm not contesting that.  What I'm saying is that there is <this area> where you will start to succeed every climb check, reliably and without fail, while there is <this area> not far away where you still fail every check afterwards, until you do that for awhile.  This has been reliable pretty much since the rooms were added.  So I'm not contesting you, I am saying that when there are behaviors like that, it seems like something may be not working as intended if that's the actual intention, i.e. for all climbs to be equal in the eyes of code.

[Brokkr]

Send in a request with the rooms and I will have a look.

[Yelinak]

I am not sure why you would assume otherwise.

That is the standard for how DIKU handles + skill items.

If you equip something that is + tanning, you aren't able to tan items.  If you equip something that is + pick, you aren't able to pick locks.  Etc.

I am not sure why you would think climb is any different?

You say this as if it makes sense and works as intended. It's completely illogical. It may work that way because of an oddity in the code, but unless it's completely impossible to change that, it's fair to suggest that it should be changed. It makes no sense at all. Why would climbing gear do nothing for unskilled climbers, aside from the fact that the code says it doesn't?

I haven't really climbed anything since I was a little kid. I'm definitely someone without the climb skill. If I did have to climb a wall, I'm pretty sure it would help me a whole lot if I had a harness, climbing boots, etc.

And my point still stands: climbing without the skill is too difficult. It should be made so that if you don't have the skill, but do have a full suit of climbing gear, you can climb okay. The ineptitude of characters without the climb skill is simply unrealistic. I'm a slightly overweight accountant who hasn't done any real exercise in over a decade and I'm pretty sure I'm better at climbing than my Zalanthan soldier char.

[Brokkr]

Like sunslits with direction sense, there is specific code that if you equip a "climbing" type tool, you will get a bonus in the climbing calculations directly.  This only applies to the first tool of this type equipped.  That is different from + skill on the item, and on which the bonuses do stack.  The bonus for a climbing tool is intended to help eventually get someone out of a jam, not be to be climbing around okay, if they don't have the skill.  If you don't have the skill, it is intended to be difficult.

[Jihelu]

That's dumb though.

[Veselka]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I agree that the climbing system (like most things DIKU) is pretty binary. It'd be cool if someone who IS skilled at climbing (or sneaking, or hiding, or so on) can provide a passive bonus if they want to. It would simulate (and go alongside) the idea that someone is guiding you through how to use the tools, how to climb, where to put your feet and hands, and so on.

But yeah -- If you are expecting that someone with absolutely no idea how to climb goes by themselves with hella equipment to climb something...I think it is completely realistic they'd look very silly as they are falling and hitting their head on the ground. Tools/Equipment require understanding and experience to utilize. If you don't have the experience, the tool/equipment will not make your life easier, it may in fact make it more cumbersome and difficult.

As an example, in my craft IRL, if I have a job that takes me 2 hours with a handsaw and files, but with a bandsaw takes me 20 seconds, you are right in thinking I will use the bandsaw every time. But if I did not know how to use the bandsaw, my chances of cutting my fingers off are very high, my chances of breaking the blade are very high, my chances of injuring myself are very high.

Similarly, I think that climbing equipment (or any +skill equipment) SHOULD require the skill to allow for bonuses. BUT, I think there should be a way to stack this 'Tool' option, like with a rope or climbing grapple, more than +1. I think there should be the ability to temporarily add a skill at novice for 10 minutes if someone teaches it to you, with a cool down of like 1 RL hour.

I also think there should be like 4 difficulties for climbing rooms, similar to lock picks/pickable locks.

Difficulty 1 - Easy for those who can climb, somewhat challenging for those without (Steep grade hill, bouldering, etc)
Difficulty 2 - Moderate challenge for those who can climb but doable especially with equipment, hard for those without climb.
Difficulty 3 - Challenging for those who can climb, moderate for those who can climb but have equipment. Almost impossible for those without climb.
Difficulty 4 - Very Challenging for those who can climb, Challenging for those who can climb but have equipment. Impossible for those without climb.

[mansa]

Re:   items that give + to skills and DikuMUD code logic.

I was thinking about this problem.  The problem seems to be that if you don't have the skill, you don't benefit from any +skill items, unless additional code has been written.


I was thinking of a simple solution.
What if...
* Everybody had every skill at 1%.
* It was 'hidden' from the skill list unless your proficiency was greater than 1.

This would work for skinning, crafting, climbing, bash, disarm, peek, and every other skill out there.

[Fredd]

Like sunslits with direction sense, there is specific code that if you equip a "climbing" type tool, you will get a bonus in the climbing calculations directly.  This only applies to the first tool of this type equipped.  That is different from + skill on the item, and on which the bonuses do stack.  The bonus for a climbing tool is intended to help eventually get someone out of a jam, not be to be climbing around okay, if they don't have the skill.  If you don't have the skill, it is intended to be difficult.

Oh Snap, I always thought it was additive if you didn't have the skill This is good to know.

God I love that staff actually talk about this stuff now.

[Alesan]

Re:   items that give + to skills and DikuMUD code logic.

I was thinking about this problem.  The problem seems to be that if you don't have the skill, you don't benefit from any +skill items, unless additional code has been written.


I was thinking of a simple solution.
What if...
* Everybody had every skill at 1%.
* It was 'hidden' from the skill list unless your proficiency was greater than 1.

This would work for skinning, crafting, climbing, bash, disarm, peek, and every other skill out there.

But that would let people do things they didn't create the character for.

[Jihelu]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Except weapons have a damage stat to them, and a better hitting sword still hits hard in the hand of an unskilled user. It's just less effective overall.

And yes, I did think about it.
If I have climbing gear, I'll do better regardless of my skill with it or know how. A 'Oh you have gear heres a small buff' tag doesn't make sense. If I have a climbing spike and know nothing about climbing I'll do better than the guy who has a rope he doesn't know how to use.
If I have no idea how to climb spikes + a climbing pike is going to provide me with a bonus, but as is it just checks to see if you have 1 apparently.
This makes little sense to me.

"But yeah -- If you are expecting that someone with absolutely no idea how to climb goes by themselves with hella equipment to climb something...I think it is completely realistic they'd look very silly as they are falling and hitting their head on the ground. Tools/Equipment require understanding and experience to utilize. If you don't have the experience, the tool/equipment will not make your life easier, it may in fact make it more cumbersome and difficult."

Gloves with spikes on them to help me get a grip and a stick with a hook on the end don't require an ungodly amount of use to figure out. I imagine spikes on the bottom are the same way.
And yes, they will look silly. As even with all the added bonus I imagine they'd still be falling all the time. However right now it's painful beyond belief trying to climb without the skill.

"Similarly, I think that climbing equipment (or any +skill equipment) SHOULD require the skill to allow for bonuses. BUT, I think there should be a way to stack this 'Tool' option, like with a rope or climbing grapple, more than +1. I think there should be the ability to temporarily add a skill at novice for 10 minutes if someone teaches it to you, with a cool down of like 1 RL hour."
I disagree

[Yelinak]

If you don't have the skill, it is intended to be difficult.

But it's not just difficult, it's nearly impossible. Unrealistically so, in my opinion. Zalanthans, who are meant to be tougher than us, and who surely grow up in an environment that is more likely to teach you at least a little bit about climbing compared to our modern world, are worse at it by default than your average modern-day human. In my opinion, at least.

You can get out of a one-room hole without the skill, sure. You even have a fair shot at two upwards climb rooms if you have a full stamina bar. But climbing down without the skill is just about impossible. You're nearly guaranteed to fail. It feels wrong. It feels like it shouldn't be that way.

As I mentioned, I took a group into an underground place with many climb rooms. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every member of the group who didn't have the climb skill fell on literally every downwards climb. A 100% failure rate across a multi-hour RPT for every character without the climb skill. Nobody without the skill ever succeeded in climbing downwards without falling. We all had a full set of climbing equipment. Harness, gloves, boots, spurs, rope.

I see no reason it should be this way. It doesn't feel realistic, it isn't good gameplay, and it discourages adventure. After experiencing that, I will never again attempt to climb on a character that doesn't have the skill. I didn't expect to be Spiderman, but it was really jarring and was highly disruptive to the RPT.

Is it possible to make it so that climbing equipment helps even without the skill? If yes, why not make it so? If no, is it really 100% impossible? If that's genuinely the case then oh well, but otherwise I very much think it warrants a change.

[Yelinak]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

[Brytta Léofa]

Getting back to the OP...

Proposal - Allow players to use assess <direction> to get information about the climb based on their level of climb skill like craft does.

Code Select Expand

>Assess South

Heading south requires a climb. 
This climb would be effortless for you.


2.  There is no way to know how far a fall can be when you are approaching a descending climb.

Proposal - Allow for the ability to look down in a direction:

Code Select Expand

>Look down south

Looking over the edge to the south you look down.
[Very far]
Nothing.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
Nothing.

Since climbs don't have a difficulty level set, I suggest the following streamlined version: simply append climbing information to the beginning of every "look <dir>" command. Encoded fall distance as "danger." Like so:

For a one-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require climbing.
[Near]
Nothing.

For a two-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require a dangerous climb.
[Near]
Nothing.

For a three-or-more-room fall:

Code Select Expand

>Look north
Moving north would require a very dangerous climb.
[Near]
Nothing.

(I'm also generally in favor of the looking-around-corners idea. But this is a fairly simple fix for the specific problem.)

[X-D]

I just have to say, IRL, climbing down is always WAY harder then climbing up...more scary too.

But you should be able to look down the darn hole/cliff without needing to beat a climb check.

[Fredd]

I just have to say, IRL, climbing down is always WAY harder then climbing up...more scary too.

But you should be able to look down the darn hole/cliff without needing to beat a climb check.

Maybe Peek can be used to look over edges, like pick is used to get branches and fruit ect.? (might be very confusing to code though)

[Lotion]

It would be so nice to be able to check if a room is a climb room without attempting to enter it

[Veselka]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

Except...

You're thinking in modern terms, where if we don't understand how something works, we can look it up on the internet, or read about it in a book.

For people completely unskilled in a craft or a 'concept', climbing spikes on ankles (which is how they are described) would absolutely be difficult to figure out and use effectively. Climbing boots with spikes in the toes 'might' be helpful depending on the surface? But you also probably don't understand how to distribute your weight, how to not find piece of rock or material that are brittle and can't support your weight, considering you have almost no idea about concepts like gravity or physics...

Anyways yeah. Tools help people with experience using other tools in the associated craft. As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

[Ender]

The point of my post is not that falls are dangerous, it's that currently there is no way for even a master climber to no HOW dangerous or if a fall is even climbable until they take the plunge.

Not being able to see over the edge means you do not know how far a drop it is.

Not being able to tell if a room is climbable or not means even a master climber might cannonball to their death because there's literally no way of telling without really vague context clues that may or may not be in the room description.

[Lotion]

Not being able to tell if a room is climbable or not means even a master climber might cannonball to their death because there's literally no way of telling without really vague context clues that may or may not be in the room description.

There's also a lot of places where the names of climb rooms vary heavily. After exploring an area where all the top climb rooms adjacent to flat ground are "over edge" and then I go near the Shield Wall and see "edge of Shield Wall" and I think ah yes, this is not over the edge and a place I can stand although it will be precarious and I should roleplay accordingly and then I fall to the ground because of how inconsistently built the game is to the point where exploration can sometimes feel like an OOC endeavor

[X-D]

That is a big one as well, I have been bitten by it.

[Riev]

Even like... a new scripted command would be helpful.

peer north:
you peer to the north, but there is no edge

peer north:
you peer to the north, and see:
minimum 3 rooms down like you would if you looked down in the room

[Jihelu]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

I've worked with tools as well for various jobs.
Therefor, you are actually wrong. Sorry. That's just how the wind blows.

[Riev]

That's dumb though.

Not really. When you think about it, you can be as well equipped as you like with a nice big sword, a lot of heavy armor, and a nice fancy helmet, but if you don't have weapon skills -- It doesn't matter. You won't fight well.

Similarly, if you don't have the climb skill (much as I do IRL) and you have all the doodads, the swirlies, and the ding-dangs, and you don't understand how to use them, they aren't going to help you.

I don't agree with that. That's apples to oranges. To make a more modern analogy, it's like how training wheels on a bicycle will make you less likely to fall while riding a bike whereas a fancy car isn't less likely to crash than a cheaper model (not counting potentially superior steering and brakes or whatever). Of course a big sword and heavy armor isn't going to improve your fighting technique. These things do not inherently impart that property on the user. A climbing harness absolutely does make you less likely to fall while climbing. And we're not talking about advanced technology here, you would legitimately have to be mentally handicapped in order to not understand how to use a climbing harness or boots that have spiked soles with which to gain better purchase on a steep surface.

As someone who makes a living with tools, my position is unassailable.

I've worked with tools as well for various jobs.
Therefor, you are actually wrong. Sorry. That's just how the wind blows.

I would also like to add that a sword and armor don't improve your fighting technique, but using a sword gives you more of a chance to kill something than no swords. Wearing armor is absolutely going to make it so that being stabbed by a knife hurts far less, if at all, as opposed to not wearing it.

Maybe you mean "you can't wear 2 cuirasses and get the armor bonus from both of them"?

[Brokkr]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

[Jihelu]

I don't think anyone is contesting the intentionality of it

I think the point is people don't like it and think it should change. Unless we've arbitrarily decided gravity is the greatest for to zalanthas

[Riev]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

I think people are just surprised at the change, and the attitude of "Well of course it works this way" like we all know how the code works vis-a-vis skillsheets and bonuses.

It may be me, but what I was expecting was either "You're right, and we'll look into making a change" or "This is done this way intentionally, and we currently have no desire to change it."

So. There's no "different" difficulty in climbing, so there's no way to 'gauge' success for a climb. But what about the other suggestions of "Seeing how far the drop is, without walking into an open pit"?

[Birdbrain]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

Hello, it's your friendly neighborhood birdbrain, reporting in.
I did some napkin math with the wonderful guild picker the community has built, and by my estimation, some 50% of the classes in the game have... wait for it... the climb skill!

With my totally unsolicited opinion, I'd like to voice that I think the following: Every class being able to do every verb in the game homogenizes the classes, and lowers the quality and enjoyment of picking a specific class, and playing that class fantasy.

Arguments, including some sound ones, have pointed out that it's realistic for everyone to be able to climb to some extent. I'd simply counterpoint and say that it's equally realistic that some 50% of the game should expect to plummet to their deaths because the knowledge of successfully climbing is reserved to only those IC few who can and do do it successfully. And it's entirely their prerogative if they wish to hoard or share the information.

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

[Alesan]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

[Jihelu]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

[Alesan]

That being said. There really is a pain point here with the lack of ability to gauge the difficulty of a climb. Gate it behind the climb skill. If you're awful at climbing, maybe it looks easier or harder than it is. If you're an expert, you can accurately determine how hard the climb is (and please note- not based on a relative scale. A wall is hard, or easy, or medium. An expert can tell this by looking and it shouldn't be contextualized, but objective.) Everyone, with or without the climb skill should be able to see the height of a potential fall. That's just presenting players with information critical to their survival or not. In the same way you can usually tell if something is deadly poisonous with a close look or sniff, you should be able to do the same with a wall, dip, ravine, etc. While we don't show people this information when it comes to monsters, or raiders, or bad guys, being able to see a fall and not jump over it to your death is a hardcoded survival skill for pretty much any humanoid.

but that would remove the thrill of not knowing whether you're walking into an essential deathtrap or not, what's the fun in that

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

I did think about putting up a disclaimer. Yeah, heavy sarcasm.

[Brokkr]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

I think people are just surprised at the change, and the attitude of "Well of course it works this way" like we all know how the code works vis-a-vis skillsheets and bonuses.

It may be me, but what I was expecting was either "You're right, and we'll look into making a change" or "This is done this way intentionally, and we currently have no desire to change it."

So. There's no "different" difficulty in climbing, so there's no way to 'gauge' success for a climb. But what about the other suggestions of "Seeing how far the drop is, without walking into an open pit"?

There was no change.  I simply informed folks that half the original idea was misinformed, as there are no difficulty ratings.  Additionally that someone trying something that may have made sense to them wouldn't work the way they thought it would.

I haven't addressed the directional aspect at all, as I am pretty much completely neutral on it.

That said I did more poking and found a bug in how some of the climb stuff seems to work between people that have the skill and those that don't.

[Jihelu]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them?  Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

I think people are just surprised at the change, and the attitude of "Well of course it works this way" like we all know how the code works vis-a-vis skillsheets and bonuses.

It may be me, but what I was expecting was either "You're right, and we'll look into making a change" or "This is done this way intentionally, and we currently have no desire to change it."

So. There's no "different" difficulty in climbing, so there's no way to 'gauge' success for a climb. But what about the other suggestions of "Seeing how far the drop is, without walking into an open pit"?

There was no change.  I simply informed folks that half the original idea was misinformed, as there are no difficulty ratings.  Additionally that someone trying something that may have made sense to them wouldn't work the way they thought it would.

I haven't addressed the directional aspect at all, as I am pretty much completely neutral on it.

That said I did more poking and found a bug in how some of the climb stuff seems to work between people that have the skill and those that don't.

And by bug do you mean that it was a lot harder than you thought it was previously or what?

I've been on the receiving end of 'Oh it works like this Jihelu don't be a dumb dumb' then the situation was figured out as 'Oops looks like it was bugged haha' so knowing would be nice.

[Brokkr]

Easier.

[Jihelu]

If what we had was easier than what it should be then god damn is climbing not meant to be fun for anyone.

[Brytta Léofa]

Climbing has generally felt fine and fun to me at advanced (raider, no I didn't attempt anything insane) and master (stalker, miscreant) levels when used with tools. True that it's excessively dangerous to do high climbs at lower levels, but that's kind of typical of a lot of Arm skills.

If what we had was easier than what it should be then god damn is climbing not meant to be fun for anyone.

Any chance this is partly a low stats issue? (I think my experience has always involved at least decent agility, which you'd expect to be a factor and of course could be too much of a factor.)

[Jihelu]

Climbing has generally felt fine and fun to me at advanced (raider, no I didn't attempt anything insane) and master (stalker, miscreant) levels when used with tools. True that it's excessively dangerous to do high climbs at lower levels, but that's kind of typical of a lot of Arm skills.

If what we had was easier than what it should be then god damn is climbing not meant to be fun for anyone.

Any chance this is partly a low stats issue? (I think my experience has always involved at least decent agility, which you'd expect to be a factor and of course could be too much of a factor.)

I tend to play young humans so my agility is generally not awful, but I haven't properly tested it.

[Veselka]

If you give a lathe or a climbing harness to the Sentinelese, what do you expect them to do with them? Sure, that is one edge of the argument, but the idea that you have to take yourself out of modern thinking and assumptions is important.

The other is it is a game, with thought out benefits and detriments, not a simulation.  Not having climb sucks, intentionally.  Stuff exists to help out with the 1 room QoL need to get out of this place situations for folks without climb, not climbing over several rooms with some degree of safety to explore.  Intentionally.

^^^

[Jihelu]

Brokkr using a bad example doesn't prove your point Veselka, I'm sorry to say.

[The Gruffalo]

Climb has problems:

1) It should be a skill you can pop like ride or pilot, which caps on a combo of your stats, probably weighted by endurance/agility/strength/wisdom. You'll never scramble the cliffs like a stalker, but you'll get out of holes.

2) It's absolutely goofy that you get knocked out, and even goofier that you get knocked out on crit-fails. What would make more sense is a "stunned" status much like we currently have for waystruck, except it would last anywhere from 15 seconds to 5 minutes depending on how far you fell.

Climbing would still be dangerous. You'd get hurt bad from long falls. You'd be stunned at the bottom, unable to do anything (imagine, the wind knocked out of you, groaning, coughing for breath, figuring out what is broken, etc).

3) If you have climbing gear and you are following someone who knows how to climb, they should be able to pass on a bonus modifier to you, to represent helping you with the climb. AKA Follow the Leader bonus from tabletop.

4) The way DIKU treats climbing is binary and outdated, and should not be looked to as a measuring stick for realism.

5) Have you ever tried to run a big RPT where several PCs have to climb down a hole with you? Unless staff is willing to assist and temporarily make the rooms no-climb to represent tying a rope ladder so they can get down, you're basically stuck hanging around for 20 minutes while half your crew tumbles down the slope like a bunch of morons, glossing over off the fact that they were just literally concussed per the code, then continuing on your way.

If you want to foster interaction, we should make it easier to engage in group activities. Making climbing harder by removing the ability to make up for lack of skill with assistance from gear? That's the opposite of that.

[Birdbrain]

Well, Brokkr has been extremely helpful in shedding light into the mechanics. Esp. with how climbing gear works in relation to the skill.

So:
Stop running RPT's involving skill checks that binary check if people die or not based on having the skill.

-OR-

Actually verify the people who are going to go on your absurdly dangerous encounter know how absurdly dangerous it is.

Final thought: Climbing by all accounts, seems to be made deliberately dangerous and a content gate. Content gates locked to some classes aren't a bad thing. Just adjust your RP.
People complaining that this doesn't promote interdependence have totally WHOOSHED the concept here. If you can't do something then.. RP and hire someone! Hey! Interdependence!

[The Gruffalo]

Okay. Sorry guys, half the clan has to stay home on this mission we've been given because you can't climb.

Have fun sitting around sparring for the 12897th time in a row.

[Yelinak]

There's a huge difference between a lathe and some leather straps that go around your body so you can attach a rope to yourself. Zalanthans also aren't Sentinelese, everybody in the game's world lives within riding distance of a city and everybody has the capacity for telepathic communication with potentially anybody in the world. Any playable race at least will have had enough contact with other people to where it's fair to say that someone without the climb skill isn't so out of the loop that they wouldn't understand how to utilize the extremely primitive climbing equipment that is in the game. It barely qualifies as technology. We're not talking about mech-suits here.

My opinion hasn't changed. Characters without the climb skill are so bad at climbing that it's dumb. It would help if we took out that ridiculous thing where failing climb without the skill even at ground level has like a 10% chance to cause you to flip upside-down and land on your head for 100 stun damage, or if there was a way to actually tie a rope to something in order to climb down a well without a 99% chance of falling. As somebody else suggested, it should be made into a skill that anybody can learn at a low level. The degree to which unskilled climbers suck at it is too unrealistic and it really, really blows anytime there's some event that involves climbing.

"Stop running RPTs that involve climbing" is a facetious response. Hard to believe anybody would even say something that inane.

[Riev]

I think a better point is that while the Sentinelese may have no idea what to do with the lathe because they've never been exposed to it, it STILL would be more helpful in doing what its designed for, than nothing.

Still isn't THE point though, which is that multiple tools don't help, if you don't have the skill.

[Alesan]

I don't think all the discussions of everyone's version of realism is going to change the fact that it's a balance decision to have climbing be difficult to impossible without the skill. And since about half the classes available have the skill, that you should have picked one of those if you want to climb, according to the designers of the game.