A General Note about the Labyrinth

[Halaster]

This keeps coming up from time to time and I want it to be clear:

People born in the Labyrinth of Allanak are 100% full citizens of Allanak like anyone else.  It is a section of the city and anyone born in it is a citizen.  They don't have to be proven to be one no more than anyone else born in the other parts of the city.  Their accent is because they're from "that side of the hood".

And every Allanaki person would know this.

If people IC'ly want to try and convince people otherwise that's totally fine.  But just understand the common knowledge of everyone is that rinthi's are citizens of Allanak.  So react accordingly IC as your character would.

[Lotion]

This problem (spreading of true information) plagues the MUD and with how helpfiles are not so easy for staff to update this is what we must resort to?

Okay that came out wrong. It's good that there's a workaround!

[mansa]

This problem (spreading of true information) plagues the MUD and with how helpfiles are not so easy for staff to update this is what we must resort to?

This is a problem of players deciding to roleplay something that isn't part of the world, and other players and staff are not correcting them at the time. 

You can't solve this problem by having the helpfiles being better, because players don't read the helpfiles, or reread the helpfiles frequently.  Player habits must be proactively corrected, rather than passively hoping players understood what they might have read.

[Lotion]

At least part of the reason players don't read the helpfiles is because trying to find the information you want in them sucks unless you already know where to look.

[Gentleboy]

So they can join the militia?

[zealus]

So they can join the militia?

There is a difference between being citizens and being allowed to join the militia, I imagine

[Hestia]

So they can join the militia?

A rinthi is a Nakki citizen.  Gemmed mages are Nakki citizens. There are Allanak citizens who are half-elves, dwarves, and elves, who aren't rinthis. There are all sorts of people who, for whatever reason, are not "hireable" by the AOD or noble houses. Even though they're citizens.

Citizenship is only one of several criteria for "hireability."

[Dar]

The point is that a non citizen can be exiled and kicked out of the city. A citizen might be exiled, but if a Templar is a true patriot, they'll just execute the citizen.

[Veselka]

I've seen 'rinthers conscripted into the Militia, or hiding their past (using a Southern accent instead of 'rinther accent). Depends on the Sergeant and the circumstances. During the last 'War Push' time, it seemed less likely your AoD Sergeant was going to care where you came from, as long as you hold a sword and follow orders and go march.

I've never heard of people from the Labyrinth not being called citizens. Also, citizenship in Allanak is a rather fluid concept, especially since they aren't denoted by tattoo as it is in the North (where they tend to take it much more seriously). People in the Labyrinth tend to be there from bad circumstances, addiction to spice, mutants, habitual criminals, born into gangs, or not interested in the bow and scrape of society in Allanak Proper. But if you were to stack them up against a tribal, or a Northerner, they are absolutely 100% more citizen than the latter two are.'

Weird trend if that's what's going down, haven't been South in a minute.

[Greve]

They're definitely second-rate citizens, though. I imagine there would be people who don't consider them "proper" citizens, just as there are people today in our world who don't consider some people proper citizens even if they are in the eyes of the law.

[Veselka]

They're definitely second-rate citizens, though. I imagine there would be people who don't consider them "proper" citizens, just as there are people today in our world who don't consider some people proper citizens even if they are in the eyes of the law.

Definitely.

A Noble should be caught dead hiring a 'rinther as an Aide, though I've seen it happen and people shrug and not say anything.

At a certain point these 'IDEALS' of society trickle down from the top. If the Top Downs (who lower downs/have nots can't really challenge) start hiring elves and half-elves and 'rinthers, it's on them, and between them and Staff, to conform to the documentation and not make exceptions to it.

[Greve]

On that note, it sort of goes both ways a little bit. People lose their fucking minds if you try to roleplay a non-rinther who has had to move in there for one of the reasons typically mentioned as the causes of people ending up there. It's like nobody can conceive of the idea that someone's a first-generation 'rinther. You'll be treated as if you're cheating at the game. Seriously.

[Narf]

On that note, it sort of goes both ways a little bit. People lose their fucking minds if you try to roleplay a non-rinther who has had to move in there for one of the reasons typically mentioned as the causes of people ending up there. It's like nobody can conceive of the idea that someone's a first-generation 'rinther. You'll be treated as if you're cheating at the game. Seriously.

It's explicitly stated in the help files that rinthers, both east and west, distrust southsiders on their turf. Generally speaking, this is appropriate play. Yes, people do move to the rinth out of desperation. But that doesn't mean the existing rinthers have to like it.

[Greve]

Yeah, but I'm talking about people going "you don't have the accent, you're not welcome here. I'm killing you if I see you up here again."

Distrust is fine, but anytime I've tried to play a non-rinther in the 'rinth, it has been met with reactions that indicate that the players don't even believe it should be a thing that can be done. Not distrust but outright refusal to permit it.

[Veselka]

On that note, it sort of goes both ways a little bit. People lose their fucking minds if you try to roleplay a non-rinther who has had to move in there for one of the reasons typically mentioned as the causes of people ending up there. It's like nobody can conceive of the idea that someone's a first-generation 'rinther. You'll be treated as if you're cheating at the game. Seriously.

It's explicitly stated in the help files that rinthers, both east and west, distrust southsiders on their turf. Generally speaking, this is appropriate play. Yes, people do move to the rinth out of desperation. But that doesn't mean the existing rinthers have to like it.

Like...Yeah. But at the same time...Like...No. I imagine most people aren't born in the 'rinth, they end up there for being addicted to spice, for being a mutant, for being a criminal, for being worse the a criminal, for not wanting to be gemmed, for not wanting to bow and scrape, for being an elf...

At a certain point Rinthers should mistrust people moving in, certainly, and vet them for not being spies, and definitely not 'like it', but come to accept it more quickly than a person from the Labyrinth moving on up to the Southside. I always found it odd how that sword cuts both ways -- Rinthers highly mistrustful and stabby boi with 'Outsiders' moving in to the Labyrinth, and Southsiders making exception for 'half elf #300 from the Labyrinth just trying to make an honest living' and accepting them into the fold.

Really -- It should be the other way around. People from the Labyrinth should have a very hard time being accepted into the social strata in Southside Allanak until they lose the accent, lose the mannerisms, lose the culture, and lose the bedraggled clothes and way of carrying themselves. In all essence, they move away from the Labyrinth in order to be accepted back into 'Normal Society', not bounce between the two as they see fit. I've unfortunately seen Rinthers too quickly accepted and too easily their past brushed under the rug, particularly where the convenience of having an Aide is concerned.

Contrariwise, Southsiders moving into the Labyrinth for just cause (Spice Addict, Criminal on the Run, etc) should be viewed with suspicion, maybe derision, maybe stabby boi, but if they survive the initial hazing, should just be considered 'another rat' eventually.

[Saiseiki]

This keeps coming up from time to time and I want it to be clear:

People born in the Labyrinth of Allanak are 100% full citizens of Allanak like anyone else.  It is a section of the city and anyone born in it is a citizen.  They don't have to be proven to be one no more than anyone else born in the other parts of the city.  Their accent is because they're from "that side of the hood".

And every Allanaki person would know this.

If people IC'ly want to try and convince people otherwise that's totally fine.  But just understand the common knowledge of everyone is that rinthi's are citizens of Allanak.  So react accordingly IC as your character would.

This is what I thought the situation/dynamic was, but I certainly appreciate having this explicitly confirmed by a current staff-member.  Thanks!  =)

[Saiseiki]

I'll add:  given that His Law is, with only a few hard-and-fast exceptions, whatever the highest ranking person in the room says it is, I can see from whence the confusion sprang.  And I also enjoy the fact that Halaster is giving those folks who want to go against custom and precedent runway to do so.

Some of my most OOCly entertaining moments have been from the most creative "fines" a PC Templar can generate, even if ICly it's an obstacle.  My favorite so far is someone being fined 50 coins for "breathing the same air as me".  That one had me giggling behind my keyboard, even if I had to field it ICly.

[ShaiHulud]

Love your Rinthi brothers and sisters. They are all just punks born on the other side of the divide.  Yes, shadier, more criminally involved perhaps, or perhaps not. Regardless, they are citizens of the False. They will die when leaving their domicile.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I would also point out that Allanak isn't Tuluk, they don't document citizenship. If it looks like a naki, talks like a naki, and seems like a naki...they are a naki until someone important says otherwise.

[WarriorPoet]

I have been told by more than one templar that rinthis are denizens, not citizens and I more or less took this as gospel for 20 years, repeating and enforcing it over multiple characters. I was never corrected.

Flag this as important, somehow, in the docs?

[Rogerthat]

I just gotta say. Rp is Rp. Some southie wanna talk shit and im playing a rinthi? I make make their life hell, they are citizens of course, just live in the shittiest part of the city. Steal their coins constantly, threaten them, shit even kill them if your heart desires. You get rid of whats talking well talking soon turns to whispers eh, or you show whats talking what you can do? Can shut them up as well, it'd be a fun rp moment.

[9001]

I just gotta say. Rp is Rp. Some southie wanna talk shit and im playing a rinthi? I make make their life hell...

This always baffles me. Any rinthi strutting about southside should absolutely be used to snide looks and comments from just about everywhere. "Steal[ling] their coins constantly, threaten[ing] them, shit even kill[ing] them if your heart desires" just seems flat out excessive for looking down on rinthis as a default response.

Being citizens doesn't make them respectable, or respected. It doesn't make them entitled to respect. Rinthis aren't nobles. They shouldn't just assume the most basic (and documentation-enforced) prejudice against them is worthy of lashing out to an extreme level.

When your character reacts to very routine discrimination it should be with your understanding that it's something your character faces every day, from virtual sources as well as PC ones. And while you can play a character that will 'overreact', because of their personality or position in certain organizations, it is not fun for other players when you fixate on them in what feels like an OOCly driven manner that ignores the fact that discrimination against your rinthi is a societally pervasive and accepted thing.

Playing an engaging antagonist isn't easy. I'm not saying you shouldn't react to being insulted or discriminated against as a rinthi (or any other marginalized group), but it's all too easy for a disproportionate response to become an OOCly oppressive one that smothers conflict.

We should be able to talk shit about rinthis without the default response being gaining stalkers that want to make our PCs lives hell or kill them outright. Not every rinthi you play needs to be the Joker.

[Hestia]

Rinthi>Nakki Transition Primer:

A rinthi is a low-life of the city. They have their own hierarchy within the Labyrinth but the moment they leave it, their default is at the bottom rung, no matter how important they are in the alleys.

A rinthi KNOWS this.  All denizens of the Labyrinth know that southside is where "THOSE people" live.  All people in the city proper know that the Rinth is where "THOSE people" live.

A rinthi knows its place - that is how the rinthi managed to live more than a week in the rinth. It's also why most of them, whether born there or moved there, never leave.

The loveliest, most wonderful, most clever, intelligent, efficient, gifted masterful rinthi crafter is still inferior to someone who was born and raised on Wall Road and hangs out in the Gaj, joins the Byn, and stinks of latrine shit.

UNLESS they can rid themselves of the aura of rinthi stench that envelops them.  That isn't merely losing an accent (though that'd be an important step).  It also means acquiring an understanding of southside mannerisms, general comprehension of the behaviors...

For example (putting verbs in my sentences here):

A "typical" rinthi might sneak EVERYWHERE, because it might be their #1 method of self-preservation.

A "typical" Nakki would not.

That's just one example of many. Learning the culture and finding your place within it, is how a rinthi would have the best chance of shaking off their rinthi aura.  This is not a coded tag, it is done via roleplay.  You wanna be a noble's aide? Spend some time observing nobles' aides, see how they act, what makes them special enough to deserve employment with one of the Nine.  Care to craft for Kadius? Watch how they behave in public, and with their boss, and especially their interactions with nobles and templars - potential future customers.

[Alesan]

I just gotta say. Rp is Rp. Some southie wanna talk shit and im playing a rinthi? I make make their life hell...

This always baffles me. Any rinthi strutting about southside should absolutely be used to snide looks and comments from just about everywhere. "Steal[ling] their coins constantly, threaten[ing] them, shit even kill[ing] them if your heart desires" just seems flat out excessive for looking down on rinthis as a default response.

Being citizens doesn't make them respectable, or respected. It doesn't make them entitled to respect. Rinthis aren't nobles. They shouldn't just assume the most basic (and documentation-enforced) prejudice against them is worthy of lashing out to an extreme level.

When your character reacts to very routine discrimination it should be with your understanding that it's something your character faces every day, from virtual sources as well as PC ones. And while you can play a character that will 'overreact', because of their personality or position in certain organizations, it is not fun for other players when you fixate on them in what feels like an OOCly driven manner that ignores the fact that discrimination against your rinthi is a societally pervasive and accepted thing.

Playing an engaging antagonist isn't easy. I'm not saying you shouldn't react to being insulted or discriminated against as a rinthi (or any other marginalized group), but it's all too easy for a disproportionate response to become an OOCly oppressive one that smothers conflict.

We should be able to talk shit about rinthis without the default response being gaining stalkers that want to make our PCs lives hell or kill them outright. Not every rinthi you play needs to be the Joker.

Yes. More discrimination against Rinthis, please. I mostly see them treated just like any other Allanak citizen. It's hard to be the change when you feel like the exception.

[Jihelu]

I still have no idea and wish we had more information on how Templar's even keep track of citizens, if they even do.
If Rinthis, who can be born in a literal hole in the wall with no contact with southside, are citizens does that mean anyone with a southern accent can just BS being a citizen? I'm fine with that but I wish it was at least written somewhere that citizenship is just a matter of accent and wearing the right clothes.

(And a coded status that apparently helps you not get murdered via crime code)

I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" while in prison when there are demonstrably no papers of citizenship taken by the Templarate. Or let me know how the census efforts go in the Rinth I'm sure they go great.

[Hestia]

I still have no idea and wish we had more information on how Templar's even keep track of citizens, if they even do.
If Rinthis, who can be born in a literal hole in the wall with no contact with southside, are citizens does that mean anyone with a southern accent can just BS being a citizen? I'm fine with that but I wish it was at least written somewhere that citizenship is just a matter of accent and wearing the right clothes.

(And a coded status that apparently helps you not get murdered via crime code)

I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" while in prison when there are demonstrably no papers of citizenship taken by the Templarate. Or let me know how the census efforts go in the Rinth I'm sure they go great.

There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character, arrest your character, extort your character, blackmail him, torture her, exile them.  If they think your PC doesn't belong, then they are free to treat your PC like someone who doesn't belong.

On the other hand - if your character has the inks that prove they DEFINITELY don't belong, then they wouldn't need to make up anything at all (such as Tuluk caste/birth inks, certain and sundry non-Nakki gang marks, etc).

[Jihelu]

I still have no idea and wish we had more information on how Templar's even keep track of citizens, if they even do.
If Rinthis, who can be born in a literal hole in the wall with no contact with southside, are citizens does that mean anyone with a southern accent can just BS being a citizen? I'm fine with that but I wish it was at least written somewhere that citizenship is just a matter of accent and wearing the right clothes.

(And a coded status that apparently helps you not get murdered via crime code)

I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" while in prison when there are demonstrably no papers of citizenship taken by the Templarate. Or let me know how the census efforts go in the Rinth I'm sure they go great.

There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character, arrest your character, extort your character, blackmail him, torture her, exile them.  If they think your PC doesn't belong, then they are free to treat your PC like someone who doesn't belong.

On the other hand - if your character has the inks that prove they DEFINITELY don't belong, then they wouldn't need to make up anything at all (such as Tuluk caste/birth inks, certain and sundry non-Nakki gang marks, etc).

"There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character"
No, there isn't. A templar can pull up on the street, smack me across the face, and make me eat shit right in front of him with the reasoning 'It felt like a good day to do such'. I understand how this works, thank you.
However there is a difference between using an in world 'fact' against me when one does not exist.
If they are lying about it, sure. Do it. That's fantastic. Corruption. Great.

However, there is no literal objective way for them to check or know and that's what I'm discussing here. Not Templar 'power of law'. What I said isn't changed by your response and I'd still like to see something updated to reflect 'there is no real way to tell citizenship outside of a he said she said'.

Every plot of 'I want to become a citizen of Allanak' is, at the end of the day, a mission of getting southern accent. This is limiting in roleplay.

Getting citizenship in Tuluk is at least interesting, we have a way of knowing who is who with the tattoos. Anyone who wants to go 'native' up North has something to work towards and look forward to. It would also be more interesting do to the xenophobia that is more common up there (Not that it isn't common down here)

So let me clarify I suppose. I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" and aren't using that like there SHOULD be papers of my character, that they somehow OOC know that I'm a tribal and not IC.

[Dar]

Technically. A person would never know if the Templarate has that capability, or not.


Practically. I've infiltrated AoD as a tuluki once ... or twice. Just never got important enough to stumble into a Ministry of the Mind.

[Jihelu]

Technically. A person would never know if the Templarate has that capability, or not.


Practically. I've infiltrated AoD as a tuluki once ... or twice. Just never got important enough to stumble into a Ministry of the Mind.

Either the Templarate does one of the following
1: Every person born goes up to talk to a Templar and have their child registered, this does not happen or it would be mentioned somewhere. Tuluk does do this to get your tattoos.

2: Spooky secret psykers.

If its the former, it should be mentioned or mentioned if it doesn't happen. It would be very easy to know this as any player character can have a child and presumably you could just ask a living parent, or anyone on the street, if this happens.

If it's the latter, the former should be mentioned as not happening with something mentioned about how 'The Templarate seems to know who is a citizen or not'.

So yes, technically the average person wouldn't 'know if the Templarate has that power' but unless the citizenship are required or actively report new children and 'new citizens' to the Templarate we'd have a pretty good idea that it's the second or some third thing.

[Patuk]

stuff

This whole thread, I think, would become a hell of a lot more sensible if we could stop talking about Allanak as a place with citizens, and started talking about it as a place with subjects.

[Jihelu]

stuff

This whole thread, I think, would become a hell of a lot more sensible if we could stop talking about Allanak as a place with citizens, and started talking about it as a place with subjects.

I mostly agreed. Citizenship in Allanak is mostly a joke, Tuluk at least bars you from some places.

[Patuk]

I don't like Tuluk doing that nowadays, either, and think it was poor form to implement that. Mandating less interaction is not a good thing. In the end, this conversation is just a bit confused, and I'd prefer we leave the pretense of Allanaki citizenship as the IC lie that it is.

[Veselka]

Being a citizen of Allanak just doesn't mean much. It's likely never going to be a reason you have an exception made for you. Unless you ARE NOT a citizen. Then it is very important. A Templar can decide you are are not a citizen, just like they can decide if you are or are not an Erdlu (seen that once or twice IG).

As with many societal concepts we rely on our RL concept of citizenship to dictate "what we get for being a citizen". Nothing. You don't get shit.

[Patuk]

Yes, so let's stop confusing ourselves OOCly by pretending (along with people IC) that Allanak has citizens. It doesn't. It has various grades of rulers, and it has subjects, and that's it.

[Dar]

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

People who 'do' care about citizenship. Also know who's citizen and who isn't.

[Veselka]

Yes, so let's stop confusing ourselves OOCly by pretending (along with people IC) that Allanak has citizens. It doesn't. It has various grades of rulers, and it has subjects, and that's it.

This is kinda how I saw it. Like, citizenship is 'such a thing' in Tuluk that they make a point of it...Elsewhere, not as much.

Though interestingly enough, there used to be a like 'Citizenship Office' in Luirs, not sure if it's there anymore.

Citizenship in Red Storm seems laughable...What, do you pay taxes? I figure it's just a place people pass through, people stay for longer periods of time, if you fuck up and cross the Sandlord you're more likely to end up dead than plead 'you're a citizen of Red Storm'...

So the only place I have ever seen it matter in is Tuluk, and it'd almost be weird to point out you are a 'Citizen of...' except in Tuluk.

[Narf]

I thought Allanaki citizenship had coded effects for how you were treated by the militia? Is that not the case anymore?

[Jihelu]

I thought Allanaki citizenship had coded effects for how you were treated by the militia? Is that not the case anymore?

I mention this directly in one of my posts.

"People who 'do' care about citizenship. Also know who's citizen and who isn't."

I've played clans who 'would care' a bout who is a citizen and who isn't.

I had 0 tools available of assessing such. And I was in the cool-kid magic house. If there are tools available to me my staffer was taking too long on the 3 week long replies to my requests to let me know about it and I didn't really care either way, if someone sounds Nakki that's good enough for me.
I was even fine with hiring a dwarf.

If we are talking about the Templarate, then yes that brings me back to my original idea. Either we self report our children and someone gives a shit about it or the Templar has their super secret not-tuluk ministry to check these things.
Which when I think about it, would be a silly waste of time. "Go on, read his fucking mind to see if he's a citizen that'll learn em' is something I never thought I'd type.

[Hestia]

I mean we can get all kinds of arbitrary on this if you aren't able to "suspend disbelief" for the sake of continuity.  So here's some arbitrariness:

When your character first pops out of chargen into either the Gaj or whatever place is in the Labyrinth, the bartender, who has OCD and a didactic memory (both of them in both places) makes a note of recognition. "Oh yeah that one's been living here forever."

And reports to the templarate that the character has been seen, alive and well.

[Jihelu]

You could have just said 'No, Jihelu. No one notes to the Templarate in game each time someone is born. Maybe the Templars have or don't have a spooky method of doing such'

Otherwise to me it seems you're kinda being a dick or perhaps I'm losing something in the text. You're comparing a question about the game world I have to a 'haha npcs are spies' thing

If I had made you upset or something, I apologize but I just feel like your response was snarky and really didn't add or help anything.

[Dar]

I mean we can get all kinds of arbitrary on this if you aren't able to "suspend disbelief" for the sake of continuity.  So here's some arbitrariness:

When your character first pops out of chargen into either the Gaj or whatever place is in the Labyrinth, the bartender, who has OCD and a didactic memory (both of them in both places) makes a note of recognition. "Oh yeah that one's been living here forever."

And reports to the templarate that the character has been seen, alive and well.

The intel was true then. The Barkeeps of Allanak are immortal beings that serve in the Ministry of the Mind. Very smart of them. But we're smarter. Phase One of Allanak demise will be a sudden strike at every bar and tavern of the city. We must kill all barkeeps. Once they're dead, it'll be chaos. Nobody will know who is who and from where. The commerce will grind to a halt. The people will rise up and shake off Tektolness hold. They'll enact Democracy and hold Elections. Then, our specially trained cadre of Half Giants will pretend to be citizens and get themselves elected in every position of power.


PS: I agree with Jihelu by the way, on the snarkiness of it all.

[Lotion]

I agree that Hestia is often an ass while trying to be helpful

[triste]

I agree that Hestia is often an ass while trying to be helpful

That's why I love her, we have the same disease.

[Hestia]

Eh. I just kept seeing the repeated requests for "reasons" on WHY people know that Allanaki citizens are allanaki citizens, without inks or citizenship papers to prove it.

Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly.

So I offered a possible explanation.

You don't like the possible explanation.

It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern.

[Patuk]

'The innkeeps can tell where you're from lmao and oh btw they tattle on the templars bro' is 100% snark. People can see this, and you shouldn't tell them that it's not. We're not dumb.

[Jihelu]

Eh. I just kept seeing the repeated requests for "reasons" on WHY people know that Allanaki citizens are allanaki citizens, without inks or citizenship papers to prove it.

Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly.

So I offered a possible explanation.

You don't like the possible explanation.

It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern.

"Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly."

Yes, because we said so will cut it. For coded reasons, that is. I proposed a very easy to answer question. "Do the Templars do X. If not, then that means it could be Y or some third variable".

X was 'Do you report your children'.
Instead of saying no, you decided to propose absurd 'suggestions' that in no way actually help a discussion or enrich the world.
You could have said no, and proposed I find out IC or that something else might exist. I discussed this in the post literally right before yours.

There is something that exists between "We are using an entirely arbitrary OOC decision to click Allanak as your starting location determining your citizenship" and "The guy speaking Tribal is 100% a citizen you're a bad person for acting otherwise". We don't have to have extremes.

"It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern."

I provided what would 100% address my concerns within my concern. I provided a framework that even if you 'fall into my evil trap of providing me an answer' (As sometimes staff seems to hate to do), you still have a valid 'It is something else' answer.

My theory now is you either don't know or you don't want us to know.
So I ask again.
Can we just get a 'Citizens don't report their children to the Templarate, it's either spooky Templar magic or something else'
Because if it isn't either of these, we can just say the alternative and actually do something other than 'It's something else' and go
'Citizenry is almost an entirely OOC construct that is decided in char gen, the Templars actually have no real good way of knowing this without Staff'
And even within THIS constraint there is room for things to move around. Which leads back to 'It's something else'.

This isn't as hard as you are making it out to be and I really shouldn't have to type this much over a simple Yes, No, Maybe question.

We are adults. I'm an adult. Presumably you are an adult. I pay taxes. I read books for fun. I have cringy sex RP in a text based game. You can tell me the answer, I swear. It won't hurt my feelings.

[Halaster]

1. People born in the Labyrinth are citizens of Allanak.  This mostly doesn't really matter, except when conversations of "foreigners" are concerned.  The real point of this was that they're not foreigners and don't have to earn citizenship.

2. Citizenship of Allanak is mostly meaningless with a few minor exceptions - rumor has it sometimes guards might go a little more easy on non-foreigners.  Might.

3. There are some people who care when hiring someone that you're a "true born" citizen of Allanak.  And some of them discriminate against rinthis - because they're rintihis, but not because they're non-citizens or foreigners.

4. Do they have ways of proving this?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  While this is generally a "Find Out In-Character" topic, I will say that the general population wouldn't have any idea how authority figures could know, as there's not tattoos or other such markings like in Tuluk.  Determining citizenship by most people typically boils down to accent and clothing, and maybe mannerisms and knowledge - as far as the common citizenry knows.  Is there some "magick templar juju" that lets them find out?  No one's telling!  Maybe there is.  Maybe the templarate just wants to you think there is.  Maybe they're bluffing.  Maybe they can read your mind!  Maybe they can't.  What is the Highlord really capable of?  Does he give a single poop about you in the first place to even care if you're a citizen?

5. Being a citizen of Allanak has virtually no benefit beyond the fact you're "not a foreigner".  It really just boils down to an us vs them situation.  Most people who are hiring will simply care about "are you a foreigner?  No?  You're hired!".  And some won't even care about that:  "Are you a human? Yes?  You're hired!".

6. Can Allanaki citizenship be faked?  Yep!  Does anyone really care?  Only those who are trying to hire non-foreigners.

7. Citizenship in Allanak is a far less meaningful thing than in Tuluk.  It isn't typically something people give much thought.  They're used to seeing foreigners around.  Yes, there are times of increased hostility or war with Tuluk where it matters more.  When people are on edge then they start noticing foreigners more, particularly those from the north.  During those times there is a heightened bit of xenophobia in Allanak, but they don't last and are not typically as severe as in Tuluk.

8. Is it OK to roleplay an Allanaki who IS xenophobic against northerns and hates them?  Absolutely.

9. None of this negates discrimination against rinthers by southies, and vice versa.

I think Dar summed it up nicely with:

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

[Jihelu]

I appreciate the answer, thank you.

[Saiseiki]

1. People born in the Labyrinth are citizens of Allanak.  This mostly doesn't really matter, except when conversations of "foreigners" are concerned.  The real point of this was that they're not foreigners and don't have to earn citizenship.

2. Citizenship of Allanak is mostly meaningless with a few minor exceptions - rumor has it sometimes guards might go a little more easy on non-foreigners.  Might.

3. There are some people who care when hiring someone that you're a "true born" citizen of Allanak.  And some of them discriminate against rinthis - because they're rintihis, but not because they're non-citizens or foreigners.

4. Do they have ways of proving this?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  While this is generally a "Find Out In-Character" topic, I will say that the general population wouldn't have any idea how authority figures could know, as there's not tattoos or other such markings like in Tuluk.  Determining citizenship by most people typically boils down to accent and clothing, and maybe mannerisms and knowledge - as far as the common citizenry knows.  Is there some "magick templar juju" that lets them find out?  No one's telling!  Maybe there is.  Maybe the templarate just wants to you think there is.  Maybe they're bluffing.  Maybe they can read your mind!  Maybe they can't.  What is the Highlord really capable of?  Does he give a single poop about you in the first place to even care if you're a citizen?

5. Being a citizen of Allanak has virtually no benefit beyond the fact you're "not a foreigner".  It really just boils down to an us vs them situation.  Most people who are hiring will simply care about "are you a foreigner?  No?  You're hired!".  And some won't even care about that:  "Are you a human? Yes?  You're hired!".

6. Can Allanaki citizenship be faked?  Yep!  Does anyone really care?  Only those who are trying to hire non-foreigners.

7. Citizenship in Allanak is a far less meaningful thing than in Tuluk.  It isn't typically something people give much thought.  They're used to seeing foreigners around.  Yes, there are times of increased hostility or war with Tuluk where it matters more.  When people are on edge then they start noticing foreigners more, particularly those from the north.  During those times there is a heightened bit of xenophobia in Allanak, but they don't last and are not typically as severe as in Tuluk.

8. Is it OK to roleplay an Allanaki who IS xenophobic against northerns and hates them?  Absolutely.

9. None of this negates discrimination against rinthers by southies, and vice versa.

I think Dar summed it up nicely with:

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

This actually lines up very nicely with what I've experienced/come to understand IC.  And mind you, this wasn't idle philosophizing, but rather some fairly high-stakes stuff with the characters involved. I'm actually kind of retroactively proud of everyone in that scenario for intuiting the "right" way to play the whole question of citizenry.

Thank you for very much for explicitly laying out the above, Halaster.  =)

[Barsook]

I don't like Tuluk doing that nowadays, either, and think it was poor form to implement that. Mandating less interaction is not a good thing. In the end, this conversation is just a bit confused, and I'd prefer we leave the pretense of Allanaki citizenship as the IC lie that it is.

Tuluki citizenship has it's pros and cons. I don't think it bars interaction so much where it's unplayable. Sure, it might be in the beginning of the foreigner's time in Tuluk, which leads to the pro. Tuluk does have a process for a foreigner to get their citizenship. Maybe there should be a small hint in the helpfiles about this.

[Veselka]

I don't like Tuluk doing that nowadays, either, and think it was poor form to implement that. Mandating less interaction is not a good thing. In the end, this conversation is just a bit confused, and I'd prefer we leave the pretense of Allanaki citizenship as the IC lie that it is.

Tuluki citizenship has it's pros and cons. I don't think it bars interaction so much where it's unplayable. Sure, it might be in the beginning of the foreigner's time in Tuluk, which leads to the pro. Tuluk does have a process for a foreigner to get their citizenship. Maybe there should be a small hint in the helpfiles about this.

The process of a foreigner getting citizenship is pretty opaque I think on purpose. People become citizens when they are born (mainly) before they can be corrupted by the outside world/politics/concepts.

There's definitely a way for *semi-important* foreigners to defect and become citizens of Tuluk, but it usually comes with a pretty rigorous vetting process. Remember -- Not in the so-distant past, Southerners infiltrated Tuluk's social strata by getting replica inks installed on some spies. Those spies were responsible for Blowing Major Shit Up and Tuluk may or may not have recovered from that since. In fact -- The Listless, all of the spooky shit, and the Unified Order were KINDA related to these Spies being overlooked and destroying Isar's Tree among other things. One could argue Tuluk is what it is today, because of this.

1627 (Year 10 Age 22)
Rumors emerge from Allanak that a team of spies in deep cover were successful in plotting sabotage against Tuluki forces during the lead up to the battle at Tyn Dashra, with whispers that the destruction of Isar's Tree might have been one of their prime targets.

In Tuluk, at a public celebration, High Precentor Ardith Lyksae steps down from his position to become Precentor of the Jihaen Order. A relatively unknown Lirathan by the name of Oralia Negean takes the mantle of High Precentor. Later in the proceedings, an Allanaki templar and soldier are executed publicly by the hand of the High Precentor and the Precentor of the Jihaen Order, respectively.

Over the next month, rumors of widespread disappearances spread throughout Tuluk.

So Tuluk definitely has precedent to have the level of xenophobia that they have, for not letting 'just anyone' into all parts of the city, and having the barricades as they are. They have good reason to be distrustful of Outsiders, who took advantage of their trust/kindness in the past, and fucked them for it.

[Veselka]

As to the pros and cons of Tuluki Citizenship --

Foreigners/Outsiders can definitely trade in the city. They get a license, and can trade as much as an "independent trader" can manage. They'll never have access to warehouses, apartments, or lodging. So, by design, they can scoot in, trade, and scoot out. Even Greater Merchant Houses don't have Estates there anymore, and may or may not have access at all (Find out IC).

Citizens on the other hand have a much broader range of possibilities. They can start their own businesses from the ground up, eventually renting warehouse space and so on. They can rent shops that are free standing. For instance, there is the Blue Chalice Gaming House -- A Tuluki PC could feasibly rent this tavern in about 2-3 RL months of play, and run it in perpetuity, if they wanted to. They could become a public partisan of a Noble, or a secret partisan of a Noble or a Faithful even. They could become a Shadow Artist, or try and join the Poet's Circle if they have a penchant for songs and stories. They could open a trading company for imports and exports, they could base themselves more firmly out of Morin's Village. They could start a mercenary company that also hires loggers. They could join the military, they could join a criminal organization. They could eventually addition to join the High Market, where their wares are exclusively bought and sold by nobles and templars and other artisans of high caliber.

So yes -- Options are more limited for foreign elements in the city by design. There is a sort of 'sub human/racial inequality/class inequality' undertone in Allanak that pervades all aspects of society that isn't as present in Tuluk. In Tuluk, it's more of a meritocracy that is highly xenophobic. The 'Other' and outsider always takes precedent in suspicion over an inked citizen. Even an inked elf is considered greater than a foreign human. It creates a completely different dynamic compared to Allanak, which I think, is what makes it appealing.