A General Note about the Labyrinth

[Hestia]

I still have no idea and wish we had more information on how Templar's even keep track of citizens, if they even do.
If Rinthis, who can be born in a literal hole in the wall with no contact with southside, are citizens does that mean anyone with a southern accent can just BS being a citizen? I'm fine with that but I wish it was at least written somewhere that citizenship is just a matter of accent and wearing the right clothes.

(And a coded status that apparently helps you not get murdered via crime code)

I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" while in prison when there are demonstrably no papers of citizenship taken by the Templarate. Or let me know how the census efforts go in the Rinth I'm sure they go great.

There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character, arrest your character, extort your character, blackmail him, torture her, exile them.  If they think your PC doesn't belong, then they are free to treat your PC like someone who doesn't belong.

On the other hand - if your character has the inks that prove they DEFINITELY don't belong, then they wouldn't need to make up anything at all (such as Tuluk caste/birth inks, certain and sundry non-Nakki gang marks, etc).

[Jihelu]

I still have no idea and wish we had more information on how Templar's even keep track of citizens, if they even do.
If Rinthis, who can be born in a literal hole in the wall with no contact with southside, are citizens does that mean anyone with a southern accent can just BS being a citizen? I'm fine with that but I wish it was at least written somewhere that citizenship is just a matter of accent and wearing the right clothes.

(And a coded status that apparently helps you not get murdered via crime code)

I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" while in prison when there are demonstrably no papers of citizenship taken by the Templarate. Or let me know how the census efforts go in the Rinth I'm sure they go great.

There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character, arrest your character, extort your character, blackmail him, torture her, exile them.  If they think your PC doesn't belong, then they are free to treat your PC like someone who doesn't belong.

On the other hand - if your character has the inks that prove they DEFINITELY don't belong, then they wouldn't need to make up anything at all (such as Tuluk caste/birth inks, certain and sundry non-Nakki gang marks, etc).

"There is no "law" preventing a templar from using "you got no papers" as a reason to kill your character"
No, there isn't. A templar can pull up on the street, smack me across the face, and make me eat shit right in front of him with the reasoning 'It felt like a good day to do such'. I understand how this works, thank you.
However there is a difference between using an in world 'fact' against me when one does not exist.
If they are lying about it, sure. Do it. That's fantastic. Corruption. Great.

However, there is no literal objective way for them to check or know and that's what I'm discussing here. Not Templar 'power of law'. What I said isn't changed by your response and I'd still like to see something updated to reflect 'there is no real way to tell citizenship outside of a he said she said'.

Every plot of 'I want to become a citizen of Allanak' is, at the end of the day, a mission of getting southern accent. This is limiting in roleplay.

Getting citizenship in Tuluk is at least interesting, we have a way of knowing who is who with the tattoos. Anyone who wants to go 'native' up North has something to work towards and look forward to. It would also be more interesting do to the xenophobia that is more common up there (Not that it isn't common down here)

So let me clarify I suppose. I just hope I don't wind up as a tribal with southern accent with someone going "HMMM YOU AINT ON ANY PAPERS OF MINE" and aren't using that like there SHOULD be papers of my character, that they somehow OOC know that I'm a tribal and not IC.

[Dar]

Technically. A person would never know if the Templarate has that capability, or not.


Practically. I've infiltrated AoD as a tuluki once ... or twice. Just never got important enough to stumble into a Ministry of the Mind.

[Jihelu]

Technically. A person would never know if the Templarate has that capability, or not.


Practically. I've infiltrated AoD as a tuluki once ... or twice. Just never got important enough to stumble into a Ministry of the Mind.

Either the Templarate does one of the following
1: Every person born goes up to talk to a Templar and have their child registered, this does not happen or it would be mentioned somewhere. Tuluk does do this to get your tattoos.

2: Spooky secret psykers.

If its the former, it should be mentioned or mentioned if it doesn't happen. It would be very easy to know this as any player character can have a child and presumably you could just ask a living parent, or anyone on the street, if this happens.

If it's the latter, the former should be mentioned as not happening with something mentioned about how 'The Templarate seems to know who is a citizen or not'.

So yes, technically the average person wouldn't 'know if the Templarate has that power' but unless the citizenship are required or actively report new children and 'new citizens' to the Templarate we'd have a pretty good idea that it's the second or some third thing.

[Patuk]

stuff

This whole thread, I think, would become a hell of a lot more sensible if we could stop talking about Allanak as a place with citizens, and started talking about it as a place with subjects.

[Jihelu]

stuff

This whole thread, I think, would become a hell of a lot more sensible if we could stop talking about Allanak as a place with citizens, and started talking about it as a place with subjects.

I mostly agreed. Citizenship in Allanak is mostly a joke, Tuluk at least bars you from some places.

[Patuk]

I don't like Tuluk doing that nowadays, either, and think it was poor form to implement that. Mandating less interaction is not a good thing. In the end, this conversation is just a bit confused, and I'd prefer we leave the pretense of Allanaki citizenship as the IC lie that it is.

[Veselka]

Being a citizen of Allanak just doesn't mean much. It's likely never going to be a reason you have an exception made for you. Unless you ARE NOT a citizen. Then it is very important. A Templar can decide you are are not a citizen, just like they can decide if you are or are not an Erdlu (seen that once or twice IG).

As with many societal concepts we rely on our RL concept of citizenship to dictate "what we get for being a citizen". Nothing. You don't get shit.

[Patuk]

Yes, so let's stop confusing ourselves OOCly by pretending (along with people IC) that Allanak has citizens. It doesn't. It has various grades of rulers, and it has subjects, and that's it.

[Dar]

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

People who 'do' care about citizenship. Also know who's citizen and who isn't.

[Veselka]

Yes, so let's stop confusing ourselves OOCly by pretending (along with people IC) that Allanak has citizens. It doesn't. It has various grades of rulers, and it has subjects, and that's it.

This is kinda how I saw it. Like, citizenship is 'such a thing' in Tuluk that they make a point of it...Elsewhere, not as much.

Though interestingly enough, there used to be a like 'Citizenship Office' in Luirs, not sure if it's there anymore.

Citizenship in Red Storm seems laughable...What, do you pay taxes? I figure it's just a place people pass through, people stay for longer periods of time, if you fuck up and cross the Sandlord you're more likely to end up dead than plead 'you're a citizen of Red Storm'...

So the only place I have ever seen it matter in is Tuluk, and it'd almost be weird to point out you are a 'Citizen of...' except in Tuluk.

[Narf]

I thought Allanaki citizenship had coded effects for how you were treated by the militia? Is that not the case anymore?

[Jihelu]

I thought Allanaki citizenship had coded effects for how you were treated by the militia? Is that not the case anymore?

I mention this directly in one of my posts.

"People who 'do' care about citizenship. Also know who's citizen and who isn't."

I've played clans who 'would care' a bout who is a citizen and who isn't.

I had 0 tools available of assessing such. And I was in the cool-kid magic house. If there are tools available to me my staffer was taking too long on the 3 week long replies to my requests to let me know about it and I didn't really care either way, if someone sounds Nakki that's good enough for me.
I was even fine with hiring a dwarf.

If we are talking about the Templarate, then yes that brings me back to my original idea. Either we self report our children and someone gives a shit about it or the Templar has their super secret not-tuluk ministry to check these things.
Which when I think about it, would be a silly waste of time. "Go on, read his fucking mind to see if he's a citizen that'll learn em' is something I never thought I'd type.

[Hestia]

I mean we can get all kinds of arbitrary on this if you aren't able to "suspend disbelief" for the sake of continuity.  So here's some arbitrariness:

When your character first pops out of chargen into either the Gaj or whatever place is in the Labyrinth, the bartender, who has OCD and a didactic memory (both of them in both places) makes a note of recognition. "Oh yeah that one's been living here forever."

And reports to the templarate that the character has been seen, alive and well.

[Jihelu]

You could have just said 'No, Jihelu. No one notes to the Templarate in game each time someone is born. Maybe the Templars have or don't have a spooky method of doing such'

Otherwise to me it seems you're kinda being a dick or perhaps I'm losing something in the text. You're comparing a question about the game world I have to a 'haha npcs are spies' thing

If I had made you upset or something, I apologize but I just feel like your response was snarky and really didn't add or help anything.

[Dar]

I mean we can get all kinds of arbitrary on this if you aren't able to "suspend disbelief" for the sake of continuity.  So here's some arbitrariness:

When your character first pops out of chargen into either the Gaj or whatever place is in the Labyrinth, the bartender, who has OCD and a didactic memory (both of them in both places) makes a note of recognition. "Oh yeah that one's been living here forever."

And reports to the templarate that the character has been seen, alive and well.

The intel was true then. The Barkeeps of Allanak are immortal beings that serve in the Ministry of the Mind. Very smart of them. But we're smarter. Phase One of Allanak demise will be a sudden strike at every bar and tavern of the city. We must kill all barkeeps. Once they're dead, it'll be chaos. Nobody will know who is who and from where. The commerce will grind to a halt. The people will rise up and shake off Tektolness hold. They'll enact Democracy and hold Elections. Then, our specially trained cadre of Half Giants will pretend to be citizens and get themselves elected in every position of power.


PS: I agree with Jihelu by the way, on the snarkiness of it all.

[Lotion]

I agree that Hestia is often an ass while trying to be helpful

[triste]

I agree that Hestia is often an ass while trying to be helpful

That's why I love her, we have the same disease.

[Hestia]

Eh. I just kept seeing the repeated requests for "reasons" on WHY people know that Allanaki citizens are allanaki citizens, without inks or citizenship papers to prove it.

Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly.

So I offered a possible explanation.

You don't like the possible explanation.

It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern.

[Patuk]

'The innkeeps can tell where you're from lmao and oh btw they tattle on the templars bro' is 100% snark. People can see this, and you shouldn't tell them that it's not. We're not dumb.

[Jihelu]

Eh. I just kept seeing the repeated requests for "reasons" on WHY people know that Allanaki citizens are allanaki citizens, without inks or citizenship papers to prove it.

Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly.

So I offered a possible explanation.

You don't like the possible explanation.

It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern.

"Obviously "because we said so" isn't going to cut it.  And "well clearly there is no way to know, so go ahead and hire that Arabet tribal as your noble's aide" isn't going to fly."

Yes, because we said so will cut it. For coded reasons, that is. I proposed a very easy to answer question. "Do the Templars do X. If not, then that means it could be Y or some third variable".

X was 'Do you report your children'.
Instead of saying no, you decided to propose absurd 'suggestions' that in no way actually help a discussion or enrich the world.
You could have said no, and proposed I find out IC or that something else might exist. I discussed this in the post literally right before yours.

There is something that exists between "We are using an entirely arbitrary OOC decision to click Allanak as your starting location determining your citizenship" and "The guy speaking Tribal is 100% a citizen you're a bad person for acting otherwise". We don't have to have extremes.

"It wasn't snarky. It's me, trying to address what you feel is a concern."

I provided what would 100% address my concerns within my concern. I provided a framework that even if you 'fall into my evil trap of providing me an answer' (As sometimes staff seems to hate to do), you still have a valid 'It is something else' answer.

My theory now is you either don't know or you don't want us to know.
So I ask again.
Can we just get a 'Citizens don't report their children to the Templarate, it's either spooky Templar magic or something else'
Because if it isn't either of these, we can just say the alternative and actually do something other than 'It's something else' and go
'Citizenry is almost an entirely OOC construct that is decided in char gen, the Templars actually have no real good way of knowing this without Staff'
And even within THIS constraint there is room for things to move around. Which leads back to 'It's something else'.

This isn't as hard as you are making it out to be and I really shouldn't have to type this much over a simple Yes, No, Maybe question.

We are adults. I'm an adult. Presumably you are an adult. I pay taxes. I read books for fun. I have cringy sex RP in a text based game. You can tell me the answer, I swear. It won't hurt my feelings.

[Halaster]

1. People born in the Labyrinth are citizens of Allanak.  This mostly doesn't really matter, except when conversations of "foreigners" are concerned.  The real point of this was that they're not foreigners and don't have to earn citizenship.

2. Citizenship of Allanak is mostly meaningless with a few minor exceptions - rumor has it sometimes guards might go a little more easy on non-foreigners.  Might.

3. There are some people who care when hiring someone that you're a "true born" citizen of Allanak.  And some of them discriminate against rinthis - because they're rintihis, but not because they're non-citizens or foreigners.

4. Do they have ways of proving this?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  While this is generally a "Find Out In-Character" topic, I will say that the general population wouldn't have any idea how authority figures could know, as there's not tattoos or other such markings like in Tuluk.  Determining citizenship by most people typically boils down to accent and clothing, and maybe mannerisms and knowledge - as far as the common citizenry knows.  Is there some "magick templar juju" that lets them find out?  No one's telling!  Maybe there is.  Maybe the templarate just wants to you think there is.  Maybe they're bluffing.  Maybe they can read your mind!  Maybe they can't.  What is the Highlord really capable of?  Does he give a single poop about you in the first place to even care if you're a citizen?

5. Being a citizen of Allanak has virtually no benefit beyond the fact you're "not a foreigner".  It really just boils down to an us vs them situation.  Most people who are hiring will simply care about "are you a foreigner?  No?  You're hired!".  And some won't even care about that:  "Are you a human? Yes?  You're hired!".

6. Can Allanaki citizenship be faked?  Yep!  Does anyone really care?  Only those who are trying to hire non-foreigners.

7. Citizenship in Allanak is a far less meaningful thing than in Tuluk.  It isn't typically something people give much thought.  They're used to seeing foreigners around.  Yes, there are times of increased hostility or war with Tuluk where it matters more.  When people are on edge then they start noticing foreigners more, particularly those from the north.  During those times there is a heightened bit of xenophobia in Allanak, but they don't last and are not typically as severe as in Tuluk.

8. Is it OK to roleplay an Allanaki who IS xenophobic against northerns and hates them?  Absolutely.

9. None of this negates discrimination against rinthers by southies, and vice versa.

I think Dar summed it up nicely with:

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

[Jihelu]

I appreciate the answer, thank you.

[Saiseiki]

1. People born in the Labyrinth are citizens of Allanak.  This mostly doesn't really matter, except when conversations of "foreigners" are concerned.  The real point of this was that they're not foreigners and don't have to earn citizenship.

2. Citizenship of Allanak is mostly meaningless with a few minor exceptions - rumor has it sometimes guards might go a little more easy on non-foreigners.  Might.

3. There are some people who care when hiring someone that you're a "true born" citizen of Allanak.  And some of them discriminate against rinthis - because they're rintihis, but not because they're non-citizens or foreigners.

4. Do they have ways of proving this?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  While this is generally a "Find Out In-Character" topic, I will say that the general population wouldn't have any idea how authority figures could know, as there's not tattoos or other such markings like in Tuluk.  Determining citizenship by most people typically boils down to accent and clothing, and maybe mannerisms and knowledge - as far as the common citizenry knows.  Is there some "magick templar juju" that lets them find out?  No one's telling!  Maybe there is.  Maybe the templarate just wants to you think there is.  Maybe they're bluffing.  Maybe they can read your mind!  Maybe they can't.  What is the Highlord really capable of?  Does he give a single poop about you in the first place to even care if you're a citizen?

5. Being a citizen of Allanak has virtually no benefit beyond the fact you're "not a foreigner".  It really just boils down to an us vs them situation.  Most people who are hiring will simply care about "are you a foreigner?  No?  You're hired!".  And some won't even care about that:  "Are you a human? Yes?  You're hired!".

6. Can Allanaki citizenship be faked?  Yep!  Does anyone really care?  Only those who are trying to hire non-foreigners.

7. Citizenship in Allanak is a far less meaningful thing than in Tuluk.  It isn't typically something people give much thought.  They're used to seeing foreigners around.  Yes, there are times of increased hostility or war with Tuluk where it matters more.  When people are on edge then they start noticing foreigners more, particularly those from the north.  During those times there is a heightened bit of xenophobia in Allanak, but they don't last and are not typically as severe as in Tuluk.

8. Is it OK to roleplay an Allanaki who IS xenophobic against northerns and hates them?  Absolutely.

9. None of this negates discrimination against rinthers by southies, and vice versa.

I think Dar summed it up nicely with:

I guess the regular people of Allanak never really care about who's citizen and who isn't. So they don't know the concept of citizenry. They just know 'they're one of ours, or they're foreigners'.    Rinthies are never considered foreigners. A regular southie of Allanak wont ever look at a rinthi and think to themselves, "Are they spying for Tuluk?". They might think, "Are they casing the join, or on a lookout for militia? Is there a mugging going on behind the corner right this moment." 

This actually lines up very nicely with what I've experienced/come to understand IC.  And mind you, this wasn't idle philosophizing, but rather some fairly high-stakes stuff with the characters involved. I'm actually kind of retroactively proud of everyone in that scenario for intuiting the "right" way to play the whole question of citizenry.

Thank you for very much for explicitly laying out the above, Halaster.  =)

[Barsook]

I don't like Tuluk doing that nowadays, either, and think it was poor form to implement that. Mandating less interaction is not a good thing. In the end, this conversation is just a bit confused, and I'd prefer we leave the pretense of Allanaki citizenship as the IC lie that it is.

Tuluki citizenship has it's pros and cons. I don't think it bars interaction so much where it's unplayable. Sure, it might be in the beginning of the foreigner's time in Tuluk, which leads to the pro. Tuluk does have a process for a foreigner to get their citizenship. Maybe there should be a small hint in the helpfiles about this.