Staff Complaints: How to improve the whistleblower system

[Shabago]

Edit made.

[yousuff]

Thank you for the post Shabago (and I wanna emphasise I don't want to target you, this is just a generalised staff grievance). I don't really have the enthusiasm to give a broken down reply myself to it but suffice to say I don't fully agree with all you've said there, just a note some of the account notes you mentioned of my own (i.e. attempting to pkill a linkdead player, if it's what I think you're refering to) happened long after the whole topic in question.

Just for people who I know are immediately going to jump on the "See! Staff were in the right all along!" wagon note he pointed out the documentation in question was changed due to all of this.

I might chime in again later if I have the motivation

Actual quick note where you said I thanked nathvaan for handling it or whatever, that's me taking that staff cock like a good player so I don't get in trouble for daring to question staff. Don't take "had a positive response with Nathvaan over your concerns on this particular issue" as me being sincere, I literally feel the same frustration right now I felt then.

Second edit:

I really can't help myself - here's another note, if the tribe documentation was against the celven roleplay doc - why was it approved?

Third edit:

Why do I like hurting myself?

Emphasis on why I was originally banned again - "multiplaying" - i.e. making a new account to try and gain a new slate with staff in 2013. Why had I an unclean slate with staff in the first place? I was a kid when I started playing armageddon and did stupid shit and wanted to start over - ironically it became a recurring thing was raised making it very difficult to gain a blank slate. Go figure.

Fourth edit:

Talking about IC events we were both present for when trying to discuss how to best communicate with staff does not qualify as OOC collusion in my opinion, the only IC discussion that went on during this time - as I've been very open about - was to make our playtimes match to be able to exchange a hugely weighty item after SEVERAL real world days of trying to meet without results (no other OOC communication about IC events outside of discussion re. staff were made - see the screenshots of the private conversations and draw your own conclusions)

[Jihelu]

Just wanted to say that despite my own  'disagreements', as evident by posts, I as well have 2 karma and staff hasn't ever reached out to me, discorded me, or messaged me in game to be like 'Shut the fuck up on the forums Jihelu I hate you'.

They have messaged me prior to tell me to stop being a code abusing shitter before, which was called for.

[Shabago]

I'm going to specifically ask that an attack or dog pile on Yousuff given my reply is not had (if one were coming).

That is not the intention here. That won't help the community. They posted their view and I posted staff reasoning. Opinions can vary, but we don't need an attack due to them.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

Yeah, Jihelu, I'm sorry. I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations, and offer some mature, well worded advice in a thread specifically for that, you're hurting me a little, my game who knows how much, and possibly them. Not by intent, I imagine. Maybe I overreacted because you brought another player involved and so I felt entitled to, too, and that's not fair. I almost never reference another person on posts except in praise, or exactly in the scenario of 'if you can do it, so can I'. Reading so many pages of.... Emotional content got my blood boiling, but that's whatever. At least you responsed better than I did to you. Literally should have taken the advice I was giving someone else.

Was I supposed to be staff?  because, that's ludicrous. I /do/ have trouble with reading comprehension outside of arm. Or, at the very least, some selective posts. So I may have misunderstood. At any rate, what I thought was witty and well crafted seems petty bc staff's response actually /was/ well crafted.

[Jihelu]

Yeah, Jihelu, I'm sorry. I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations, and offer some mature, well worded advice in a thread specifically for that, you're hurting me a little, my game who knows how much, and possibly them. Not by intent, I imagine. Maybe I overreacted because you brought another player involved and so I felt entitled to, too, and that's not fair. I almost never reference another person on posts except in praise, or exactly in the scenario of 'if you can do it, so can I'. Reading so many pages of.... Emotional content got my blood boiling, but that's whatever. At least you responsed better than I did to you. Literally should have taken the advice I was giving someone else.

Was I supposed to be staff?  because, that's ludicrous. I /do/ have trouble with reading comprehension outside of arm. Or, at the very least, some selective posts. So I may have misunderstood. At any rate, what I thought was witty and well crafted seems petty bc staff's response actually /was/ well crafted.

" I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations"
I don't think I've attacked anyone so far, expect perhaps when I summarized I have disagreements with Shabago. Could you clarify what you mean by this?

[Dar]

I might not be paying attention as much as I should to gdb. Most of it is reading on the phone. But, Rat ... You lost me too. Wtf?

[yousuff]

I wouldn't jump on rat, I think he's just saying he got a bit upset by me telling people not to play the Mud and he got a little defensive over it

[Brokkr]

I asked a question earlier in the thread:

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

I will start with my perception of how these complaints have been traditionally viewed by Staff.  They are there to help Staff deal with troublesome behavior or receive constructive feedback over conduct. Whether involving Staff or a Player, these request types are fundamentally about bringing an issue to the attention of Staff they may not have otherwise known about, or providing a different point of view to an interaction that was seen as worrisome by a player.  In the interest of being professional, the approach to handling these was much the way you would expect a complaint to HR to be handled at a major US company, without the expectations of the outcome or resolution or even much feedback given to the person that lodged the complaint.  Again, like such companies, the mechanism ensures the company is functioning correctly, not that the person who lodges such complaints receives closure.

From the responses to my question, it seems the people that responded want closure, some details of the investigation, or/and the outcome of the complaint. Embedded within some of the responses there seemed to also be a theme of accountability or transparency to the player or playerbase.

While there has been a general movement in Staff's overall handling of complaints towards how Players might wish to see them be answered, especially recently, this still points to a wide gulf. We can talk about where the right place to meet is, but ultimately the meeting point must in a place where the function of the complaint type still meets Staff needs, and does not become about vindication for the person lodging the complaint in general, as this would be unfair to anyone a complaint was lodged against.

Talking with Shabago, we agree that these types of requests, in addition to fulfilling the function they have for Staff, are important in providing a voice to the Player.  We also agree that the Player should be treated with respect, assuming they aren't engaging in offensive behavior in the request.  While a satisfying closure may not be possible, we also both agree that giving the player that made the complaint some sense of the actions taken in investigating and resolving the complaint makes sense, so that it is not quite the black box process as it has previously been for many that have lodged these types of requests in the past.

[Dar]

Overall, Youseff. Forgive me, but you 'were' OOC colluding. Ill accept the premise that you didn't realize it, but any outside of the game discussion of recent in game events is against the rules.

Imagine this. Imagine the other player actually ment to betray you all and feed you to his dark gods. But you speak to the player and now the player has to either lie to you person to person. Instead of character to character. Or reveal his true plans.  There is a reason why 'any' discussion like that is against the rules. I have no illusions, people are still doing it. But .. it doesn't make it okey.

I do accept that this was not done maliciously. Otherwise, you wouldn't have blatantly confessed it to a staffer.  Although at this point if you really went out of your way to tell people not to play the game ...  I mean why are you even torturing yourself?

[yousuff]

I've been gone for over a year, so I'd hardly say I'm torturing myself over it. I only just rolled a new character very recently, and I guess I saw the thread, read through it and realised "Actually wait - why am I playing this again?". Staff has not changed and while I appreciate my posts aren't just being flat out deleted (lol - why should I have to fear that they would be? I only ever feel like this on this one game) and I appreciate the staff have replied to me I can't help but feel that same frustration now that I felt back then.

As a side note re. OOC collusion (I'm still adamant I did not) - if you reread what staff said to me in the requests it pretty much boiled down to "We don't like what a character you are associating with is doing so we're stomping down on everything you're going to do going forward and we've edited the game's documentation to enforce our sudden change in view to make the tribe we just approved for you incompatible with the game world". The OOC thing was just thrown in on top - and felt much more like "How dare someone complain about us in private!"

Friendly reminder that the Tuluki city elf clan (whatever their names are) used to have ties with the Sun Runners and their members used to go out and live with them for extended periods of time. Yeah it was difficult because city elves don't have the stamina to keep up - but hey, rules for thee but not for me! My (staff) designed city elf tribe is special! The inconsistency is astounding and the turnaround by staff to slap us down then felt extremely arbitrary and enormously unfair. I was warned by the player applying to my city elf family role before they even joined that they might have issues with staff that might extend to me - lo what they said turned true when their character performed actions and I by association was being targeted for it - and uh oh - discussing the staff in private messages? That's OOC collusion - which means staff were now justified in targeting me! Had I said nothing that I was receiving concerning messages from the other player they wouldn't have mentioned the OOC part at all and still threatened to store me. In fact the only thing they were even aware of is the information I gave them in that request which is that the player in question told me they felt they were feeling targeted! That seems fair! I only mentioned the part about only making our play times match the one time because they threw the OOC collusion accusation against me - I was being upfront. I can't speak on behalf of staff currently but with many of the same members then as there are now, I can state that they are no different. Looking at you Brokerr.

I really am saying no more on this. Ugh.

Edit: Actually no, you're right, I'm torturing myself:

** Full admission to the player base, the doc change they're referring to was updated.

Gee thanks. I sure feel better.

[Shabago]

I've been gone for over a year, so I'd hardly say I'm torturing myself over it. I only just rolled a new character very recently, and I guess I saw the thread, read through it and realised "Actually wait - why am I playing this again?". Staff has not changed and while I appreciate my posts aren't just being flat out deleted (lol - why should I have to fear that they would be? I only ever feel like this on this one game) and I appreciate the staff have replied to me I can't help but feel that same frustration now that I felt back then.

I'm sorry you're left feeling frustrated. I've let you expression your view freely here and gave rebuttal on our stand point. We have changed, in-so-far-as what has been presented. I've been transparent with reasoning. I've owned out mistake regarding the documentation and expressed interest in working with you still. Instead, you wish to persist and double down on how terrible we all are, in fact of evidence to the contrary. At present, I'm afraid the party failing to change or attempt to make the community better, is you.

As a side note re. OOC collusion (I'm still adamant I did not) - if you reread what staff said to me in the requests it pretty much boiled down to "We don't like what a character you are associating with is doing so we're stomping down on everything you're going to do going forward and we've edited the game's documentation to enforce our sudden change in view to make the tribe we just approved for you incompatible with the game world". The OOC thing was just thrown in on top - and felt much more like "How dare someone complain about us in private!"

I'm afraid your belief doesn't trump what the actual rules of the game are. Back then, and even to current in this thread, you were communicating over IG events in counter to rules 6/7. This belief is held by the staff team, and is even shared by players posting in this very thread. Pitching it as stomping down on everything because 'reasons' with your history and the blatant OOC is, frankly, baseless and unfounded.

Friendly reminder that the Tuluki city elf clan (whatever their names are) used to have ties with the Sun Runners and their members used to go out and live with them for extended periods of time. Yeah it was difficult because city elves don't have the stamina to keep up - but hey, rules for thee but not for me! My (staff) designed city elf tribe is special! The inconsistency is astounding and the turnaround by staff to slap us down then felt extremely arbitrary and enormously unfair. I was warned by the player applying to my city elf family role before they even joined that they might have issues with staff that might extend to me - lo what they said turned true when their character performed actions and I by association was being targeted for it - and uh oh - discussing the staff in private messages? That's OOC collusion - which means staff were now justified in targeting me! Had I said nothing that I was receiving concerning messages from the other player they wouldn't have mentioned the OOC part at all and still threatened to store me. In fact the only thing they were even aware of is the information I gave them in that request which is that they told me they felt they were feeling targeted! That seems fair! I can't speak on behalf of staff currently but with many of the same members then as there are now, I can state that they are no different. Looking at you Brokerr.

Friendly reminder that said clan being referenced specifically states in the documentation that "This is extremely hard and likely to cause mental issues for the elf. Same with inviting a Delf to the city, where they will 'No doubt snap over being penned in and cause no end of problems.' Sounds like what you got told. "Forays with a purpose into the wild are fine" - "Living like a D-elf when a city elf, is not." Your re-has of what "the other player" told me, has already been addressed and lacks any merit. You were not blamed for their actions. You asked about their actions and were told. You -were- held to account over the OOC collusion and kills. Difference.

With the laid out and countered claims, supplied evidence, and continued trend to not only ignore it but double-down in attacks on the staffing team and game, well...

I really am saying no more on this. Ugh.

You're correct, as you'll be my first ban for the GDB since the new directive on the basis of purposefully being misleading, insulting, flaming the game, it's staff, and actively attempting to harm the community - which is, of course, directly counter to the intended purpose of my post and said thread.

If in the future, if you're interested in rejoining us as a constructive member of said community, you'll be welcome. Until then, wishing you the best.

[Is Friday]

Serious inquiry:

May I ask for my requests to never be handled by certain staff? I can do my own work on avoiding them by checking an updated staff list. But if they move into my area I think it'd be nice to have an option to talk to a diff ST/admin.

Edit: If a ST or admin that I will not play with moves into my area I'm going to store or use every means necessary to separate my PC from their influence. I'd just rather have a formalized system that is no drama. It honestly ought to be an option for players.

Edit 2:
While grievances might be old or already apologized over, I feel as though many people would feel more comfortable playing if this was in place. It would give peace of mind to people who feel their boundaries were crossed.

[LauraMars]

Not sure, but I think I just saw the brand new Staff/Player Relations Producer get into a line-by-line debate with, and then ban from the forums, a disgruntled player in a thread about improving staff/player relations.

[Brokkr]

Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region.  A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence.  This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group.  Same with Admins.  We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.

[Is Friday]

Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region.  A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence.  This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group.  Same with Admins.  We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.

I understand.

That's unfortunate. I can't abide that model and will have to withdraw my involvement with the game until there is a more modern structure in place. The safety and well being of players is as important as it is for staff.

I have the feeling that the inevitable problem will come up again under your current structure.

Thanks y'all.

[Dar]

It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

[Is Friday]

It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

The issue isn't necessarily with their competence or role. I have emotional baggage with certain members of staff (and vice versa because staff tell me about my "reputation".) E.g. I'd like for instance to not have any future involvement with staff who were involved in a marriage forced conception plot - whether or not they were instrumental in the situation is irrelevant. I'd just like to not play with them. Trusting them would require too much emotional labor no matter how much time has passed.

There's other less things, as well. But I'm not on the gdb to megaphone anyone.

If the structure isn't dynamic enough to support that, then I will continue to play elsewhere.

[Dar]

reason doesn't particularly matter. Do you know the names so you can ask them not to reply to your requests? If you don't know the names, then that's kind of hard to accommodate.

Honestly. If let's say I dislike Halasturd and he joins the staffing team of my rp sphere. I imagine if I send out a question request asking him to not be the one who resolves my requests for reasons I have no desire to discuss. Will Halasturd just say, "Fuck you. Either eat my responses, or quit." Or is he going to just recuse himself? With someone else responding to my requests, while Halaster loads items for my plots anonymously.

[Hestia]

It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

Right now, I'm the staffer for a few specific clans in Allanak. No other member of staff is assigned those houses, though Halaster has oversight as our Southern team admin. I am also not responsible for any of the other clans in Allanak - those are assigned to different storytellers.  If someone didn't want to deal with me in the clans I'm assigned to, then they'd have no one to deal with at all. There's no one I'd be "unwilling" to work with in the playerbase, and hope the feeling's mutual, but we can't all be besties and I accept that

We do help each other out on occasion, sometimes cross-animating, sometimes adding to scenes for each other (such as the Ocotillo Festival, which involved pretty much every staff member in the game at one point or another).  But other than during staff-shifts, we generally don't touch each others' clan requests.  It's impolite, and it can get messy if someone else doesn't really have the background info necessary to respond to a request in a clan they don't oversee.

[MeTekillot]

Would a substitute Storyteller be a tenable solution, with the expectation that Storyteller is solely in place to take over in stead of particular staff members for particular players?

[Hestia]

Would a substitute Storyteller be a tenable solution, with the expectation that Storyteller is solely in place to take over in stead of particular staff members for particular players?

Mm...I'll take the devil's advocate/pessimist approach to the question, because I feel it's important to have a broad perspective.

Normally, players/staff get along. We don't always agree but we do get along. 

Until there's a "problem."

So extending that, I'd ask you:

Would you want to be that "substitute storyteller" whose only function is to handle the players who have "problems" with another member of staff?  Even if you were willing to give it a try, do you think you'd last very long?  The players are coming to you because someone on -your- team - a fellow-staffer - is being rejected by another member of -your- team - a fellow player.

I don't think I'd last long, were I that substitute storyteller.

We do have admins, and producers.  They handle the actual "problems." But if the problem is just that you don't want to play in a particular staffer's clan, well - that speaks more about an interpersonal relationship between two individuals, and less about game dynamics.

[Aromit]

Adding onto what Hestia said, over watching a section of the gameworld is a considerable amount of effort if you want to stay informed, follow up with players and all the while continue your building for plots/support your clans etc while trying to eek out a moment to enjoy the game from the ground yourself (many of us still play). There's a lot to oversee, while we do fill in to cover absences in the like, it would be unfair to expect a shift of staff duty and overwatch (in addition to the ST/Admin duties) on the basis of a player not wanting to deal with X staff member. Often keeping up with player motivations is more than just "you" as your characters story ideally entwines with others in the world.

Staff guidelines, staff management and a framework for staff complaints and discussions while we try to put the right foot forward on all fronts seem more than reasonable to accommodate the community in my opinion.

[Is Friday]

Do you know the names so you can ask them not to reply to your requests? If you don't know the names, then that's kind of hard to accommodate.

Yes, I do.

reason doesn't particularly matter.

The reason always matters. If not to staff, then the players who have boundaries crossed.

edit for staff:
If you all are saying that "Our current structure does not support this model or feature" then that's a problem. Every modern roleplaying game has built in safety tools and means to provide a safe playing environment for everyone. It is an expectation from the new generation of roleplayers (primarily 5e players) that the player be empowered to express their discomfort or avoid people/topics. I would argue that staff's stance on this says to most young people that this is not a safe space because of its rigidity; Its love for unnecessary beauracracy which obfuscates staff 3x more than at a tabletop game.

This is akin to running a tabletop store with Adventurer's League events and not making accommodations for a player who has expressed they don't want to play a game with DM Bob. You're just going to keep losing business with a model like this.

[Jihelu]

I certainly did not expect the Yousuff arc to end this way