Staff Complaints: How to improve the whistleblower system

[Jihelu]

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

More vocal, active approaches to reconciling with people who don't play the game anymore or people who have expressed discontent.

We've got several people non anonymously saying they've had issues. That's one ordeal. Ordeal 1.

We've got people who have left the game in the past. Some have left due to staff. People leaving is ordeal 2, leaving due to staff is like ordeal 2.5

Shabago's reply, despite agreeing with trivial parts of OP's post, is still highly dismissive and I find slightly insulting to the author. The author's issues are never taken seriously or given contemplation beyond a dismisal of them. Perhaps its tone, perhaps it's my perspective. I feel there are several 'no' answers that could have been highly reworded. Ordeal 3.

1: Don't just sit around while people actively go 'damn, I sure did not like when staff were actively dismissive of my complaints'. Reach out to them privately. Or you can even do a whole post on the same thread 'Hey, we are hearing what you are saying. Would you be willing to open a dialogue via request tool or discord so we can better discuss this?'.

2: Armageddon needs a reaching out method to begin with, no big issues here.
2.5: Same thing as #1. People go 'I have friends who don't play the game due to staff'. Instead of "Hearsay, third party, bad faith argument" maybe try messaging the poster and trying to get in contact with these people? Public post "Hey, we'd like to discuss with these individuals if they are open to this. Could you request tool us a handle if that individual is comfortable talking to us?".

3: I dunno at this point.

My entire post had little to do with your actual question to me, so I'll try to address it directly.
"What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?"

Both individuals having a satisfying conclusion. That's what I think the outcome should be.

I won't say which staffer this is from because anonymity is important. But here's the outcome of the only staff complaint I ever wrote. I'll also not say which staffer it's over.
"We've read your request and your point of view.  This request is now resolved."

.....That's it?
To be fair I was a little salty in my complaint, I doubt people write complaints when they are in good moods though it would be good practice to do so, but I can think of a lot of different ways to help provide closure. Ways to keep anonymity, hide the super secret staffer methods, and still do more than a line of text followed by the 'door closed'.


Riev's comment, which is on the first page towards the bottom, is also pretty good if not a bit...extra. That's a lot of stuff but would be helpful.
You can even tell the person making the complaint whether you sympathize with them, agree with them, etc. (I would lean against...negative opinions in this area. 'Ur fuckin wrong kiddo request closed' probably isn't fun.) Knowing the actual outcome of a complaint can lead to satisfaction, even if the desired outcome isn't known. A dialogue can be had over the outcome if it led to something the complainee didn't desire. 'We are updating to let you know that we took your complaint to heart and looked into it more, but have decided not to go forward with any disciplinary measures because of X Y Z, we hope you can understand this. Here's some more information or why this may have happened'.

[ShaLeah]

"What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?"

That is going to vary from player to player. Just ask.  It's really not that complicated. You cannot make a rule to encompass everyone these days, too many people aren't societal drones.


And by the way?

All we can do is try and tell you guys the truth.

Have you ever heard of the story of the boy who cried wolf?

Armageddon Staffers are the boy - players are the villagers - When the boy FINALLY told the truth? The villagers didn't believe them.

I'm sorry new staff have inherited the sins of their fore...staffers. This is a good exercise in the "if the shoe fits" mindset. If you haven't and you didn't then you shouldn't get defensive.

We've *all* put thousands of hours into this game, not just staff. 

Newsflash - it's a game - it's supposed to be FUN - when it stops being fun we need an Arm-vacation.

[WithSprinkles]

I'm trying to be conservative with my opinions, here.

The staff here is human. They will make mistakes. That isn't to say that they can't be wrong, or have bad days. I remember once during a discussion on staff behavior, a staff member asking if people wanted them to rub their heads in ashes for forgiveness of past transgressions. While those particular words were not tactful, it does make a point. An apology was asked for, and an apology has been extended by the staff team with a pledge to work together to do better.

The players here are human. They will make mistakes. That isn't to say that they can't be wrong, or have bad days. Apologies DON'T have to be accepted. That is alright. It is okay to still feel anger. I still feel irritation when I think of some past issues. The apology given makes me feel better, but the past is still there. I guess I can forgive in time, but I won't forget it. That's good. It keeps the same mistakes from happening again. NOT forgetting what hurt us is how we learn. Adapting to it in a constructive way is how we survive. Distrusting ALL staff because SOME staff caused issues, while understandable, makes it harder to have more positive interactions with those that have not caused issues.

The rules should be posted in such a manner such as they cannot be missed, and there should be a standard way of editing posts for certain offenses on the boards, until trust has been won back. In the case of the post which caused a bit of recent furor, it falls under Rule 10 which can be found on the website. This would have been more apparent if the rules were redundantly posted on the boards, AND the rule was reiterated during moderation. Having solid rules down, and following them equally for everyone will help alleviate doubt. Discuss rule changes and post them in an easy to find way.

As for making past issues more visible, this was attempted once, to my knowledge with a board post on these forums by a former Storyteller. I had to submit a request to ask that this post be edited because my character that had been involved in the events was still alive, as were some others. The events depicted were being detailed in an unfavorable light and had nothing to do with events as I had witnessed or experienced them, and the people around me were expressing confusion, bewilderment, and disappointment. The edit was made, but I can imagine that others might have felt similar annoyance over this post, and certainly had not given consent to being put on blast for things they couldn't properly defend against without the whole thing being moderated away. This is why posting these things to begin with is a bad idea, and should not be repeated. One of the best ways to go about it would be for everyone involved to take a time out, go to an OOC room in game, and hash things out like adults in a moderated setting.

There is a statement here being made by Brokkr that is an entirely good question. "What are players expecting from the outcomes to be from Staff or Player complaints?"

I'll give one answer:
When I was having my own troubles, I always asked if someone could give the other player a tap to let them know that they should back off a little in intensity. The game has no way of sending someone an OOC WHISPER, so whatever you say to someone in an OOC sense is blasted to the whole room. This can lead to censure, or to being told that a person is attempting to circumvent the flow of a scene. Avoiding a troublesome person is left to the person being made uncomfortable, rather than there being a means to tell the other person to give them room to breathe. The aggressor might even welcome an opportunity to have this information (as has been frequently said on the forums).

We rely on the staff to pass this information, not to judge on if this information SHOULD be passed. Since there is no means to otherwise communicate this in a fair way currently, the staff should respect player agency and just pass the message. If the behavior continues or intensifies, that establishes a pattern of misconduct, because they were given a clear indication that they needed to back down and from THERE the staff member should determine the validity of any further complaints.

I believe that if a player has an issue with a staff member, those complaints should not be seen at a Storyteller level. If the rest of the player base is not on a need to know basis, then neither should be all of the Storytellers. The Admins should be free to consider all complaints, but be recused if the complaint is directed at them. The same for Producers. The Storytellers may have opinions to give about certain situations, but they should only be considered if they are involved, same as any player, since they would not have a comprehensive understanding of every situation. Admin and Producers SHOULD have a better grip on the overall picture.

Shabago already addressed the issue I wanted to mention, with timely resolution of complaints. The one that I sent off took FAR too long to resolve in the past, and didn't even need to get to that level. Hence, my other commentary.

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

Help. I expect help. If I've gotten to the level where I feel the need to write a complaint, it's out of hand, and I can no longer figure out what to do without intervention. It like someone screaming that there is a shark in the water, and the captain of a passing sea vessel throwing a plank. Yeah, the person is out of the water for the moment, but there is still a SHARK! If the person even gets a plank at all, instead of a, "There are supposed to be sharks in that water." and a view of the back of the boat. And hey look! Now I have a PLANK-EATING SHARK.

Help me find a way to constructively deal with the shark, because I clearly am having a problem with it.


Being completely transparent here, I've been on both sides of this fence (a while as a Builder, and for a very, very short while on the Storyteller side). I'm genuinely not here to cheer for, or bash the game. I honestly love it, and do like the people here - staff included. I just got really disillusioned and sad doing it. I don't see myself as player or staff here anymore, but I didn't feel as if I should engage further without making that little bit known (And it honestly freaks me out to mention it, because I don't want people to be mad about it or consider it favoritism - I really applied myself).  I wanted to add bittersweet moments of joy to a world filled with woe, and maybe help be part of this new iteration of Storytellers that are working so hard to overcome the mistakes of the past. This player base doesn't deserve a lot of the nonsense tossed at them, because you are sweet people, and it was fun animating for you and trying to help some of you achieve your goals (while simultaneously getting you to teach me how to achieve mine). Be gentle with one another as players and staff - and paint the walls with each others insides in game. <3

[Namino]

Hello.

I don't play Armageddon any longer and have no plans for returning, but I do occasionally glance over this forum and sometimes feel an urge to chime in, which in a moment of weakness I am yielding to for this thread.

My sympathies do go out to the staffers who honestly want to improve player-staff relations. While I have no doubt that you as individuals are all honestly hoping to complete a heel-face turn, the truth of the matter is that as a member of staff, you're not an individual on this topic: you're a representative of an organization with four decades of history. That history is so checkered, it should be waving at Le Mans. MUDs overall have a reputation of being staffed by hostile entities, and Armageddon especially sits somewhere near the top of the list of offenders in this regard.

Trust is much easier to destroy than it is to build, and many of your predecessors (and, in fact, current colleagues!) contributed very heavily to that destruction. The tone of the conversation here, at least to my reading, is that players should take this heel-face turn in good faith and trust that it will occur. In my estimation, it would be unreasonable to expect them to trust you at this point, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, on the topic of transparency: privacy is important in regards to IC events, but staff complaints aren't IC. As relayed elsewhere in this thread, too many staff complaints get dismissed out of hand, or handled behind the scenes with no visible evidence of effect or change. The staffer behind the complaint shows no evidence of slowing down or changing their behavior. There is no debrief to the community about what steps were taken or why. That's not particularly healthy and speaks of a culture more concerned about setting up a comfy environment for its staff than one that has trust with its playerbase.

Secondly, and this is the big one: there is no way that I can personally take a promise of better behavior from the staff at face value when certain members are still prominent on the team. As of **right now**, there are staffers on your team who have demonstrated some of the most vitriolic, aggressive, self-serving and rude behavior towards players on a consistent, regular basis. While I have had very pleasant interactions with the majority of staff, the fact that these elements still exist in your crew immediately defangs any argument that you're trying to be better. You can't make a stand against drink driving and resign Henry Ruggs. As long as those staffers are still present and accounted for on the roster, any claim to improving relations is sheer lip service.

[Veselka]

My intent of posting this wasn't to do so in bad faith or stir up negative feelings. Though that seems to have happened and I apologize for that.

I'm taking a brief break from the game. This is instead of filing a Staff complaint. I don't feel it's worth the emotional investment to write up and document why I am feeling burned out or having friction with Staff. I feel it's best to just take a step back from the hobby, and readjust my expectations.

I'm playing a leadership role where my requests take an average of 15-20 days to resolve. I am left wondering if it is worth investing my RL time to plots IG if I have no indication from Staff if they will be supported or not.

I've had more negative wish sends than positive ones, where I am assumed to be acting in bad faith rather than given the benefit of the doubt (or separating IC actions with OOC motivations). I haven't felt set up for success as a player, but rather left hanging in the wind. I can make my own fun, especially on leadership roles, but not when that fun is hamstrung by requiring Staff agency and involvement through a request tool outside of the game.

Why not file a Staff complaint?

Because I don't expect that to change. The Staffing team is what it is. They have their assignments. I am who I am, and ultimately I am probably expecting too much of the game and of the Staff running it. I'm older now than when I started playing the game, and my time feels more at a premium. While I excel at Leadership roles, it's perhaps time to realize I can't invest that much of myself into a Fantasy RPI MuD any longer.

I haven't filed a staff complaint because as Brokkr puts it — what result would I expect? I'm not sure. Acknowledgement that my area of the world could use more Staffing. Acknowledging that request times are really long right now and to maybe hold off on large overarching plots.

I am trigger shy approaching Staff because I have been burned more than once in the past. I took a 2 year break from the game and came back using a VPN and new account because real or not — I was worried about Staff having preconceived notions about me and my PCs that I wanted to avoid. I appreciate the sentiment of Shabago's messaging and the ideals they present. I have gotten along quite well with Shabago in past present and hopefully future. I hope to come back with a cool head and fresh attitude. I've also been on new medication that is probably affecting my mood, which also I need time to adjust to. Sensibly — breaks are good. Kvetching like this — probably not as productive as I thought it would be.

Sorry.

[Blink]

...
I hope to come back with a cool head and fresh attitude. I've also been on new medication that is probably affecting my mood, which also I need time to adjust to. Sensibly — breaks are good. Kvetching like this — probably not as productive as I thought it would be.

Sorry.

I hope you feel better soon.  I'd suggest you make a clean break;  no GDB Or Discord.  I take a lot of breaks, mainly for busy life reasons or infrequently for game burnout.  When I come back after a month or a year, the game seems all bright and shiny.   

[Aruven]

This thread continues to get interesting.

For Veselka first:

I played a couple of leaders and was so disgusted with staff in the terminal points I quit playing for up to a year and other times for months.
Sometimes you need a break. After the last break I took, when I came back, I found a way to love the game without the downswings.

I hope the break is just what you need and you come back. You bring a lot to the experience and the enjoyment of other players.

No apology needed.

************************

I'm not entirely sure how to approach the rest of this thread. I deleted a reply I had typed up earlier in the day.

I think there's some traction to gain in the area of 'make the staff complaints and resolutions more public'. If players feel like staff complaints do nothing, that's also probably a problem worth reviewing, or staff at least being more public about.

And.

This community wants to isolate and pretend we're just casually playing a game together, but you want to be treated like valuable community members when something goes wrong or the political beliefs you hold in real life are threatened by an IC event or interaction. Players as individuals want to be the arbitrators of what staff are good, and what staff are bad, and this is largely based on outcomes they've experienced that were either in their favor or against it--or personal preference.

I'm not a fan of people who don't play the game anymore taking the time to write up posts to shit on something they no longer contribute to here. I don't like the kill shots for the rest of the community here because you're done and want to vent your rage. There's another place for that.

I do like seeing an open discussion and wanting to address issues that are still driving players away and preventing new ones from coming in. The staff at present are over 9000 times more transparent and open with the players. Some of this was forced by players, I mean anyone pretending they never googled the word 'armageddon' and actually found that other place (with a higher search result than the actual gdb) is probably lying.

There are two separate problems here I think.

1.) There's current players feeling snuffed somehow, and there should be some outlets to discuss that. Expecting current staff to atone for decades of issues is pretty unreasonable to me, and i've been a critic of their stances many times. But what prompted this, Shabago's post (I think?), is an effort to remedy issues with current players and future ones.

2.) Former players on strike or never returning. Much love to many of you, as you literally trained and made my armageddon experience over the years. And also, I don't know what to do about this. Ya'll are hilarious, intelligent, crazy as or crazier than me, and the epic roasts of staff and policy have brought me great joy from time to time. I don't know how to remove a history of frustration and anger though.

Reading this, other comments, and threads in the past just made me think: "Who the fuck would ever volunteer to staff?" Imagine being a human dealing with these waves of issues that really have no boundaries in some areas. Every person that steps away from the game now is a massive loss, and I hope my reply here hasn't made my fellow players think i'm not hearing them or don't understand some of the very specific grievances.

With the advent of discord, I don't feel like I couldn't get through to someone if some absolutely crazy shit was going down and needed to be addressed. Maybe that is happening to players? I don't know. But I am willing at this stage in life to distinguish between "I'm being ignored" and "I didn't like the result."

The results are also important--and if there's some massive favoritism or discrimination going on, and players feel that way, it needs to be discussed.

[Shabago]

I do not think there is an easy answer to make the process feel more fair to the player.  It is very difficult to build and maintain trust that complaints are being handled in the most fair and thorough way possible.

I think one thing that can be done is to re-evaluate the staff complaint helpfile.  Currently 6 of the 7 staff complaint rules are basically framed as accusations against the player, with the 6th rule detailing out threats of banning against players who abuse to the staff complaint request, yikes.  I'm worried such a confrontational set of rules over the years has done more to discourage legitimate complaints than it has at calming down upset players to more rationally frame their complaints.

For example the second rule states:

"Be polite and mature. While you may feel that you have been wronged, communicate in a polite manner. Name-calling and demands are unnecessary. Bring facts and let the Producers determine what needs to be done."

A better way of framing this may be:

"We understand that emotions can run high. Please remember that we are all people and try to be polite and factual in your report."


It is also mentioned in the helpfile that a player can request clarification on the process.  It would be better if this was just part of the process.  That to close out and resolve any complaint players should be made aware of what went into that decision.  A lot can be done to mitigate hurt feelings if this process is explained to the player.  Many times the game can be harsh and actions taken can feel personal, but having the veil lifted enough to let the staff know they do understand and sympathize with player feelings can do a lot.  Even if an In Character action was harsh, the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Noting this is being actively reviewed and addressed. Specific shout out to Usiku and Mansa with my appreciation, and to Ender for bringing it up and pointing it out.

[Shabago]

the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Sometimes, Ender, they ARE out to get/fuck them and THAT is the biggest problem.

I cannot tell you how many former staff have told me how "Staff" feels about me.

My latest staff complaint was because my karma was docked when I wasn't even playing. Without having broken a rule. 20 years playing for me to have a 1 karma. If it's personal against ONE player the likelihood that it could be personal against more than one player are pretty good. You don't see players saying their feelings against a particular staff AREN'T personal. They absolutely are. The way that staff treats me, is definitely in the 'out to get me' category.

I don't think changing the nomenclature is going to do diddly, Veselka - while some staff complaints fall under "can we talk about this?" I would dare say MOST don't.  I'd change this suggestion to adding a "Can we talk about this?" category.

I'm going to comment more on this but I want to re-read it and I'm not in a rush to get out of here.  I'm late!

On a further review of this particular issue, the reason for the karma dock had to do with staff trust as mentioned in the karma help file. It was felt your actions in discord/GDB were disruptive and actively producing player complaints and requests for moderation. That lead to a reduction in said staff trust and thus the karma dock. The dock was not immediately time with the discord ban. That aside, this was not verbalised to you in a way that was clear AND as this was not a specifically stated rule (defined), I've spoken with the team and thus taking the action at the time, and its agreed to reinstated the karma point and offer an apology to you in the failure of communication.

[Shabago]

It doesn't help to file a complaint with staff.  I in the past have learned if you do the staff in complaint will answer and respond sort of cold and rudely. Then afterwards will load up npcs or active npc in a area to run you off and stop the rp. So best if you get a staff against you just play WoW or do something around the house for a month and let them all get off the pissy mood it is a free game anyway and maybe their real lives isnt going well.. Like to add that Shabg is the one reason I keep easing back in game. More then once they have listen to me and wrote back in a more calming tone and wording.

I'm happy to know that I've been helpful to you in the past, Wday. In the spirit of that, can I ask for you to point me to the staff complaint that you've submitted? I'm having trouble locating it. Was it filed as a question request? I would like to review it. As for the claim of loaded NPCs or such, I'd further ask that if you can supply some log in that request; attn Shabago, I'll look into that as well.

[Shabago]

When I put in a staff complaint and staff was on my side,

they had told me I was right on the matter and that was all. I didn't get an apology and I just felt empty.

The comment that hurt me and embarrassed me is still on that clan forum to this day, so everyone can see it too.

I have felt unheard a lot of times in the past. But, in reports and requests and questions I mention to staff that I am sensitive. And I try to put that across and they've been very respectful about it. I think sometimes our tone can also be pretty abrupt and cold. But, when I have been genuine and tried to state that, staff seems to appreciate it. I am a very gentle boy, you see.

I'm sorry you came away from the interaction with this feeling, though I do feel the need to mention that you were, in fact, offered an apology in the request. Can I request that you return to the request in question to verify that? Or, if you like, I can copy/paste it to you in an open one you have. I mention this, specifically, as if this is the source of your feelings based on a miscommunication or misread, that would be great to clear up for you and I both.

[Shabago]

I too have experienced dismissive, nowhere requests even when I use a polite or civil method of getting something across. It's unfortunate that only recently have I been snippy with my textual tone to staff due to the more than of a handful of occurrences that were just plain rude responses. Sometimes I get responses from a staffer who didn't actually read what I was talking about (that's actually the most common response) the worst part is having a request closed by a staffer before you get to even discuss anything.

So pretty much just a +1 to those above me.

Same as WDay, can I request that you submit a request and link or point me to these requests you're unsatisfied with? I'm not finding any under the 'Staff complaint' file. I'd prefer to address them and/or be informed on them prior to making any further comment.

[Jihelu]

Just want it to be noted this was a lot of what I 'wanted' as far as my posts go.

[williamson]

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

I think this is a great question.

Before I give my opinion, I hope I'm a member of the silent majority that generally thinks the staff is currently doing a great job and is thankful for all their efforts to keep the game fun and running smoothly. I'm also appreciative of the playerbase as a whole who the game needs to flesh out the stories that make Armageddon such an incredible game. As we all know, everyone here on the GDB is part of our gaming community. Sometimes I believe there is a misconcieved notion that the game has a Staff vs Player mentality. However, we need to look at the game more as a collective creation, even when the staff are leading us toward an ominous in-game fate.

To answer Brokkr's question and express how I'd like to see Staff complaints handled, I'm going to create a fictious staff complaint based on the recent Full Mage thread which was moderated then changed.

Everyone on the GDB saw this:

If being a mage wasn't so extremely isolating and boring I would be happy to have a much stricter limit in the game towards being able to be one.

as the game is designed now it feels like the particular cultural stigmas which make being a mage or a gemmed a completely dull hatefest [I understand this is your opinion, but this was a far step past what is acceptable.  Make this parallel again and see what happens to your account.  -Staff.] are how the game discourages choosing to be a mage.

I read the original post before it was moderated. I don't recall exactly what was said. However, when I read it, I don't recall finding it personally offensive or inappropriate. I do recall thinking it might anger some people on the GDB. It turns out that some people found it inappropriate and the post was moderated.

Let's pretend the player submits a staff complaint as follows:

"Dear Staff,

My recent post in the Full Mage thread (link included) was moderated by a staff member and my karma was docked as a punishment. However, I was unaware my opinion was an inappropriate topic. As per the GDB helpfile: "The staff encourages players to post anything game-related, including critiques or feedback on recent changes, advice on how to write a successful application, suggestions for mud policy, requests for assistance, discussion of plotlines, documentation, processes, or anything else pertinent to the game without fear of repercussions." This topic is not mentioned in the GDB helpfile, the Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile, or the Staff Announcements - Forum Rules. Additionally, I feel the tone of this staff member was somewhat abrasive and feel publicly shamed. I'd like to request an appeal to restore my karma, the tone of the moderation made more neutral, and the addition of what seems to be a new rule (or a missing old rule) to all of the above mentioned helpfiles and forum rules.

Thank you for your time"

From this complaint, I hope each producer takes the time to read the original post and the moderated post. I'd like them to review the helpfiles and forum rules. After doing so, they should see that topic isn't mentioned anywhere and the player has accidentally wondered into an inappropriate area. If the producers feel the moderating tone could be improved, they would change it. If this topic should become a new rule, then the producers should open a new IDB topic to gather the input and feedback from the rest of the staff. After discussion and debate in the IDB, a new rule is written and added to the following: GDB helpfile, Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile, and Staff Announcements - Forum Rules. There is a new Staff Announcement by a producer to inform the playerbase of the rule addition.

A producer or delegated administrator responds to the player complaint as follows:

"Dear Player,

After reviewing your complaint, there was no specific rule prohibiting this topic of discussion. Therefore, we are reimbursing your karma. However, we adding a new rule to the GDB helpfile, Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile , and Staff Announcements - Forum Rules to prohbit this topic in the future. Please refrain from this topic moving forward and sorry for the confusion. (Assuming the tone could be better) We agree the tone of the moderation was inappropriate and have adjusted the wording.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention and we look forward to seeing you in game."

The rest of us, as players, see the original post, the original moderation, the changed moderation, and the consequent rule change from the producer's Staff Announcement.

The staff member is informed of the complaint and ruling by the producers something like this:

"Dear Staff,

After reviewing a recent player complaint regarding the moderation of this post (include link), we found that this topic is not expressively prohibited in any of our public rules or helpfiles. We agree that it should be included and have added a new topic of discussion on the IDB. Please add your thoughts to the discussion. Since no current rule was broken, we've reimbursed the player's karma. Additionally, we adjusted the tone of the moderation to make it more neutral. Feel free to chat with us in game if you gave any additional questions.

Thank you for your continued hard work and dedication to the game!"

I was planning on playing my character tonight. However, it took me about 2 hours to find all the rules, double check them, and write this answer to Brokkr's question. I assume it would easily take that much if not more time to respond to a real staff complaint. Thus, each time we, as players, submit such a complaint we a taking time away from new code, fun interaction, completing custom crafts, or that special animation. I hope we'll all think about the time drain each of these complaints requires and consider that carefully before filing them. When we file a complaint, we should state the problem, provide any available evidence of an error, and state what action you want to resolve the complaint.

Thanks for reading.

[Gentleboy]

I think a big issue is that people don't know when to let go.

We are all stubborn creative people and it does not feel good to be wrong.

My favorite saying these days is "I'll gladly eat my own boot." Because I love being proven wrong and learning.

But if someone feels they are absolutely correct and the opposite feels that they themselves are absolutely correct. There will always be a hurt party. Especially when one person is staff and has the final say and therefore "wins".

One thing I wish is that staff wouldn't close tickets when THEY feel the issue is resolved. Just a "here is what the outcome is on our side. Any thoughts? Confused? Anything you want to add". Because not feeling heard really I think is a big source of contempt.

[X-D]

You know, Since coming back...(which was partly from finding out that a certain producer and storyteller were gone)...Over all, even when filing complaints, I have found staff to be far more reasonable then during the (see above) days.

Main reason for posting though...the suggestion of having an "actions taken" Section in the reply or what have you, should Indeed be in place. (or just use Williamson's template)

Also, Karma docks should always be well explained and have an automatic appeal process. That or make it producer privilege only.

(edit)
Staff training for dealing with complaints.

It is very annoying to have a staffer tell you, in text that you have some kind of tone. Unless the player is actually swearing or being abusive etc. They have no "tone", it is text.
Blunt and to the point is not a "tone".
Explaining something, EVEN if it is calling a staffer out is not a "tone."

[Dar]

I definitely believe that there is a tendency to be protective over fellow staff. It is a natural human thing to do for when you're working in groups. It is a problem. But hopefully, as long as people are aware of this tendency, people can mitigate it and be more objective. 

I've raised a staff complaint about it, and had a back and forth with Brokrr. Worked out pretty well, I think. Don't know if it actually had any kind of learning result in a longer run, but I would hope so. Time will show.


All in all, I don't think you'll be able to bring any kind of beneficial result by discussing this on the forum. Too many lines staff cant cross to argue their points without just copy/pasting other people's conversations. Which, I think, is a bad idea.

I would suggest giving it a bit of time, but keeping this thread in mind. So if the staff shows itself doing the same stuff you'll be able to raise the issue. And this time with factual fresh data. Otherwise, we're just picking at a wound instead of letting it heal.

[MeTekillot]

I'm in both camps that I've had (subjectively unjustified) unpleasant interactions with staff, but also been a problematic player. I'll say that I'm in support of this move with Shabago. I'm personally trying to be a better example for other players and to be less toxic in the community.

[ShaiHulud]

This whole thread makes me sad to read.
Yes, the give and go between staff and players is always gonna be there.
I've had some things in the past that I didn't think got handled right, from my perspective.
But, I am always here, because I know nothing is malicious.
And for perspective for all. Imagine the detail back in 94 to these issues now.
I'd say the community and staff has grown a hundred fold in many regards.
I for one, am not disgruntled. I love that the staff do what they do and keep this game interesting for me. (will be sending a request in soon btw )
I suggest all play more, actually IG play.
Sometimes I think more are playing on the gdb. Discord. /sigh/
Since 94, I've watched this game and community evolve.
I've noticed a trend of ..how do I say, ..needier players, when I am used to the bare minimum to play. The toughest and best was in the past.
Quit trying to appease every tomdickerharry. Play or don't.
I digress, please don't flame me.

[ShaLeah]

the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Sometimes, Ender, they ARE out to get/fuck them and THAT is the biggest problem.

I cannot tell you how many former staff have told me how "Staff" feels about me.

My latest staff complaint was because my karma was docked when I wasn't even playing. Without having broken a rule. 20 years playing for me to have a 1 karma. If it's personal against ONE player the likelihood that it could be personal against more than one player are pretty good. You don't see players saying their feelings against a particular staff AREN'T personal. They absolutely are. The way that staff treats me, is definitely in the 'out to get me' category.

I don't think changing the nomenclature is going to do diddly, Veselka - while some staff complaints fall under "can we talk about this?" I would dare say MOST don't.  I'd change this suggestion to adding a "Can we talk about this?" category.

I'm going to comment more on this but I want to re-read it and I'm not in a rush to get out of here.  I'm late!

On a further review of this particular issue, the reason for the karma dock had to do with staff trust as mentioned in the karma help file. It was felt your actions in discord/GDB were disruptive and actively producing player complaints and requests for moderation. That lead to a reduction in said staff trust and thus the karma dock. The dock was not immediately time with the discord ban. That aside, this was not verbalised to you in a way that was clear AND as this was not a specifically stated rule (defined), I've spoken with the team and thus taking the action at the time, and its agreed to reinstated the karma point and offer an apology to you in the failure of communication.

I'd like to open a discussion about this.  Under what category should I do that?

[roughneck]

I think any complaint, player or staff directed, should have a 24 hour delay before it's sent to give the sender a chance to chill the fuck out and remember it's a fantasy world of text. This thread is exhausting.

Staff volunteer to run the fantasy text world I play in. I don't know why I like fantasy text worlds, but I just do. It's their sandbox, not mine. I'm not willing to put the time in, nor would I be willing to deal with internet people I don't know shitting in my sandbox. I'm certainly not willing or able to make my own game. So, here I am. It's a fun sandbox, and I'm grateful to be invited to play in it.

This is a mindset that makes accepting any kind of outcome I don't necessarily agree with, IC or OOC, pretty easy. I manage my own feelings, instead of expecting the world, particularly internet people I've never met, to accommodate me.

Entitlement is a seed of discontentment. Cultivate a better mindset.

If you read this thread as someone who has never played the game, and didn't know anyone in here, what opinions would you walk away with? Would you decide to create a character after reading it? What conclusions would you make about the attitude of the playerbase vs the responses staff members have made? I probably wouldn't be logging in after reading.

[Derain]

I once submitted a complaint and had my next character rejected for 3 days for anything and everything the staffer could find to reject it for. (This staffer in more recent time have been more than fair to me but I avoided their staffing area as much as I could)

I once had a sponsored role force stored and was given the option by Rathustra to appeal and staff complaint to keep the PC but I chose to just let it go because I had felt that it would do me zero good to try to file the complaint. All of that said and done, most of my staff interactions recently have been civil.

[Patuk]

The last staff complaint I filed was closed without resolution..... By that very same staff member, himself. They are gone by now, but only for reasons of their own. I haven't bothered trying to file one since and the one way to guarantee the system should work that I know of is never going to be implemented.

[Halaster]

One thing I wish is that staff wouldn't close tickets when THEY feel the issue is resolved. Just a "here is what the outcome is on our side. Any thoughts? Confused? Anything you want to add". Because not feeling heard really I think is a big source of contempt.

I'll personally be better about that.  For most of my career (over 25 years!) I've been in a support role where I deal with tickets.  And in that world it's all about closing them.  Close close close.  You don't want open, ongoing tickets!  So the habit is just ingrained deep in me to close them as soon as I feel I've answered them, and move on.

I'll try not to adopt that mindset when dealing with requests and not be so quick to close.

[Jihelu]

"This is a mindset that makes accepting any kind of outcome I don't necessarily agree with, IC or OOC, pretty easy. I manage my own feelings, instead of expecting the world, particularly internet people I've never met, to accommodate me.

Entitlement is a seed of discontentment. Cultivate a better mindset.

If you read this thread as someone who has never played the game, and didn't know anyone in here, what opinions would you walk away with? Would you decide to create a character after reading it? What conclusions would you make about the attitude of the playerbase vs the responses staff members have made? I probably wouldn't be logging in after reading."

If you were a new player, from your own words, you'd be thankful to have a sandbox available and just cultivate a better mindset supposedly.

I'm gonna not beat around the bush here: I think this take is harmful at best and disingenuous to a whole slew of issues. Patuk should be thankful for the chance to play this game and 'not let it bother him' that a staffer, who he complained about, closed his request without resolution?
But it's fine and we shouldn't address it because of new players having a bad preconception about the game?

I've been playing this game for 6 years. I went from a 17 year old to a 23 year old. I outright think your mindset is not helpful to the game nor that it works.

I've seen a ton of threads in ye olden times that amounted to 'Take it to requests', this 'sweep it behind the curtain' mentality of never airing grievances. It doesn't work. We've got 5+ people airing complaints, 10% of our normal peak players or so, it doesn't work.

I think new players should be delighted to find a community thats willing to discuss a long standing issue in a way thats healthy and not dismissive to the players. Let's see what new players can find on the internet about Armageddon...


1: Armageddon is apparently a game where people vie to have sex with children (Also some not nice things about staff).
We actually did raise the age of player character's I think shortly after this was made, but it's still there. New Players see this when googling 'Armageddon Mud reddit', which they might do when searching for reviews on whether to play this game or not.

2: ...More sex stuff.

3: Despite what I thought would be kinda click bait-y, it does actually remain drama free. It mostly is a review about how it's kinda dumb we use a Diku-clone to play an intense RP game.
To an extent I agree, there's like....a billion better systems.

4: This is a former staffer, supported by another former staffer in the comments, suggesting players join the shadowboards.

5: "I hate to say it but the staff do seem paranoid and abusive"

6: A pretty decent writing of the game. Not sure how it does as a 'review' but it's written for a magazine, pretty well written. I recommend people check it out and will link it here.



"I suggest all play more, actually IG play.
Sometimes I think more are playing on the gdb. Discord. /sigh/"

I think this is a dismissive hand wave.
The downtime I've had between characters is generally pretty low, and whether I'm actively playing or not at a given time shouldn't effect my ability to opinionate on things or be something you concern yourself with, but this idea of 'Heh, they aren't even playing the game they just wanna bitch on the Discord' is doing nothing to help a conversation.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Despite what Roughneck may believe we are all entitled to respect and, I believe, a better system of resolution. This past day or so has actually seen what I would consider strides to actually do that.

Halastar's comment right above mine is an admission of doing something that may breed resentment with the playerbase, an acknowledgement. He doesn't say it isn't an issue but provides reasoning for possible 'bad behavior', and then offers to do better.

Shabago personally reached out to people who expressed discontentment to the game.

Critique and open discussion is not an attack on people or the game, it's an attempt at doing better. For all the people who say 'Oh I love the game and never have any issue' keep in mind that your experience is not universal and I expect that you lot should be the ones who push for this stuff as much as I do so that everyone can think this way.


Post comment thoughts:
I thought my choice of words for the google search may seem a bit 'pushy' towards a desired opinion, so I did another search you can find here because this post is fucking big already.
1st link: Already discussed (The related links are unpromising though but they could only pop up because of my prior search history)
2nd link: A mostly positive review.
3rd link: There's a majority of negative reviews on this site
4th link: Shadowboard post. The gist: Player put in a review from karma, got a reply back (That I think is worded fairly well), and has a pretty upset reply about it and why he's quitting. Some of his talking points seem fairly 'stable' though, was his request instantly closed and he wasn't given time to discuss them or did he feel the need not to? In his own words "Arm staff ... you failed to engage with me to discuss it and so I gave up on your game, and you"

However keep in mind this is like, a fairly one sided look at the entire situation.

As more of a joke, it's time to focus on this aspect of Shabago's post
" There are people on both sides of the staff/player line who feel they've been cheated, wronged, spoken down to, mistreated, or disrespected and I believe I can safely state for everyone that that shouldn't happen."

So which staffers hate me? Let's fight it out. I'm open to a variety of conflict resolution methods. Boxing matches, fencing, dueling with pistols.