Staff Complaints: How to improve the whistleblower system

[Aromit]

I'd like to open a discussion about this.  Under what category should I do that?

Hard to say but feel free to open it under whatever category feels fitting to you, we can always adjust the category on our side (as simple as a couple of clicks) to better fit our own filing.

[Gentleboy]

When I put in a staff complaint and staff was on my side,

they had told me I was right on the matter and that was all. I didn't get an apology and I just felt empty.

The comment that hurt me and embarrassed me is still on that clan forum to this day, so everyone can see it too.

I have felt unheard a lot of times in the past. But, in reports and requests and questions I mention to staff that I am sensitive. And I try to put that across and they've been very respectful about it. I think sometimes our tone can also be pretty abrupt and cold. But, when I have been genuine and tried to state that, staff seems to appreciate it. I am a very gentle boy, you see.

I'm sorry you came away from the interaction with this feeling, though I do feel the need to mention that you were, in fact, offered an apology in the request. Can I request that you return to the request in question to verify that? Or, if you like, I can copy/paste it to you in an open one you have. I mention this, specifically, as if this is the source of your feelings based on a miscommunication or misread, that would be great to clear up for you and I both.

You are totally right. I just reread the request and I missed the line with the apology. That is on me and my careless eyes.

[Bogre]

Right now we have a team who genuinely cares for this community, advocates for players and wants to try and make right how we all communicate and play together. Something to keep in mind is that caring folks are often quite sensitive themselves, and when you are putting in 30+ hours a week (on top of day jobs) to support the game for the benefit of the players then having to read how little faith the player base has, how we are disingenuous, how we are bad people out to get them or simply how we're just not doing enough.. well, honestly, it's utterly and completely exhausting and it's emotionally draining and it makes it really really hard to keep your chin up and keep going. It also makes it harder to be patient, and thoughtful and considerate when you're constantly being bombarded with negativity. Please also remember, there are two sides to every story.

I think that this is eminently clear. Everything I'm seeing staff response wise on the player side is so 180 degrees from where it was a few years ago. I think that overall it's going to be a good thing, even if it has pain points here and there. There's a lot of vulnerability and old hurts that might be freshened or aired - from players, staff alike as we kind of peel this bandage off.

The community as a whole will be healthier with a big dose of benefit of the doubt and good faith with one another.

I mean, think about the potential outcome: a reviving playerbase who are eager to play and get lost in the sandbox, staff that don't get burned out cause of the dreg or causticness of the players...like, I think it could be in the future! So we've just got to keep calm and carry on.

I am glad that we are seeing people make a discourse from both sides!

[Shabago]

I am kind of curious on how this will go. Had my share of disagreements as well. Old and new. It is my hope that the recent threads regarding grievances and the like have been heard. Now we'll need to give it a bit of time to see if there is an actual effect.

It does require some time to play out and to have actual, tangible action observed. I can entirely understand that. I'm hopeful the over-all effect will come to pass. That being, to re-state, a more positive, welcoming community on both sides of the Staff-Player divide. More as a means of continued transparency in place of a back-pat on this, I feel encouraged that this has been working already, in small part. Since that direction post, and this thread, we've received several staff kudos of encouragement (Thank you again to each of you) and we intend to keep pushing for better. I'm further encouraged by the lion share of tone in this thread. People can absolutely be passionate about the hobby and their views. They're free to state them. "Abusive" language/tone or flaming doesn't fall within that of course, and is the nature of my point. Most of you have been extremely pleasant from the get go hear, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Shabago]

I would feel more comfortable with returning to the game if I could select my staff if I happened to be in the sphere of someone I don't want to do business with. People do this in other games and I don't see why not here. I think being apologetic is great for both staff and players who have acted inappropriately or made mistakes - but that doesn't change how someone feels about another party automatically. There are staff who do not want to work with me and there are staff I would choose not to work with. Having this option as a matter of policy would be beneficial to everyone.

It would alleviate a lot of problems to have built-in flexibility like that for leaders or reporting players.

I think expecting everyone to hive-mind instantly buddy-buddy get along with anyone, be it player on player or player to staff, or even staff to staff is a stretch. It's something that comes with time or effort on both sides of the fence, to build that relationship. Sometimes, a clash of personality may never ease out and that's okay. We can still get on with the game/work.

I think what you're asking is pre-built into the game and staff coverage as is. You can choose your staff by the nature of your concept, area of the game, clan or unclanned and so on. Should staff rotate after a period of time that would cause this to not be the case, I don't think it's such a stretch to come at it fresh from both sides - we're a mature group. Things can be discussed and fixed.

[Shabago]

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I'm heartened to hear that the nomenclature of the Staff Complaint/Feedback would be considered, along with the rules in the helpfile, to better encourage this current/next generation of players to be more forthcoming with Staff/Producers when they have a shitty experience. That's all I was really pushing for.

Yes -- It will take time to unlearn what has basically been years of expecting Staff to close ranks and jump down your throat if you bring an issue up or file a staff complaint. Like you said -- It's probably best not to dredge up the past, but sometimes, the past kinda clings to you.

I had a recent event this week (and actually over the last 2 months) that I've hesitated filing Staff Complaints over, because it presents a negative attitude (Here's a player who complains about Staff, sigh, let's pass on future roles for them), creates a feeling of us vs them, and overall generates a sort of negative black cloud over the role in general. Instead I've been grinning and bearing it and just trying to focus on the positive stuff. But that doesn't seem...I don't know. Correct? I feel that if a Staffer is being a rude dude, a player should feel confident to point it out to Producers. But even by nature of this response, I feel the tone is "You're presenting dishonest bad faith arguments, I don't really believe what you're saying, show me some evidence and I'll think about it", which is...

Kind of the way it's always been.

Part 1:

Awesome. Glad a positive change could come about from it being discussed or brought up.

Part 2:

Sure, that's understandable. Real or imagined insults, issues or miscommunications that impact us (broad strokes here) in real life or this online hobby of ours, will generally be remembered for a good stretch of time. This is regardless of the apology or offer of relationship being accepted or not. It's up to both sides to come at the matter maturely with fresh eyes now and move forward to not repeat the same mistakes.

Part 3:

You seem pretty well spoken here? You weren't hesitant to bring it up in a vague sense, which is - in my opinion - worse, as it gives us zero to go on for details to fix. I doubt your complaint would be a fly off the handle rage, curse-filled rant to result in a negative view over your offered feedback. Not really your style. One issue brought up has already been addressed, agreed upon and is being fixed ala point 1, as well. There is no us Vs. them, so I'm sorry, but you're painting yourself into a corner of your own making. Rather than supplying the feedback and details that need addressing, you're instead impacting your own enjoyment of the game, which then affects those around you, by way of not being as energetic, invested, committed - whatever word you wish to use. This, in turn, hurts the area of the game said staff are looking over and *wanting* to be enjoyable. That's the nature of their very role in that zone. Grin and bear accomplished both sides to lose. So - again, I'm asking you to speak up and submit it so it can be given a proper look and be addressed so both sides aren't impacted.

As for tone, I'm sorry you're deciding to take it that way. It's a genuine offer to help. About the only portion of that last line that I would say is something I - or anyone - would ask for is the evidence portion. That applies to a day one new player or a very veteran staff member. If a staff member came to me and said "Veselka just posted every detail about the death of their last PC that's only a week old on the boards." - My first response is "Link?"

It's not a matter of distrust to a team member or, in your case, a player to have something to go off of. It's due diligence, gaining information and not punishing some side on say so. We each have our own minds, which are made up from what we can see/hear/read.

[Lotion]

people need to stop getting salty about whatever the fuck nyr did. he's gone, he's been gone.with the reopening of modern tuluk staff symbolically killed his legacy in the game. now his legacy in this game only exists in your salt. was he a bad person? it doesn't fucking matter he's gone

[Shabago]

"I've noticed a trend of posts like Shabago's, and then my interaction with other Staff being just as bad or worse than in previous years. It's kind of disingenuous and just makes me think "same old, same old". I've spoken with two players that have left in the last 2 RL months due to staff interactions in the game and outside of the game. That's really discouraging.

"Vaguebooking and impossible to address and thus, a bad faith argument that only serves to hurt the community at large. "

Is it really impossible to address?  You can comment on it in a way that's more neutral while acknowledging an issue (Or better yet, a 'possible' issue). If I have a friend message me 'Yeah I'm done with Arm cause so and so staffer is being a dick to me' does that mean I have to just never mention it ever again and hope my pal takes time out of his day to go put in a request that only staff will see for a game he doesn't intend on playing again?

Yes. It is. "That thing you do IC is sort of lame, Jihelu. Go on. Guess which thing I mean. No, no. Not that. Why can't you just do what I asked you to do? Fix it. ...What do you mean you don't understand what you have to do. Just acknowledge you're doing it wrong and stop it. I don't care if you know what the wrong thing is or not." Seem fair?

Did your friend supply you with what the entire context was from start to finish as to how the "staff member was a dick" or did they supply the portion of the argument that would make them look best? Is your friend incapable of addressing the matter themselves? Why is it your business to both default accept an accusation as fact and expect someone who has no clue what it is to fix it? And, how is it appropriate to spread this about within the community at large to demotivate everyone - player and staff alike? I'm looking to build a better, more welcoming community. That takes energy - and, as much as it may cause some blow back here with you or others, I don't have spare energy for people outside of it that just want to cause a stink, rather than address it constructively.

I'd also say it definitely doesn't 'only serve to hurt the community'. Worse case scenario is that those people are just salty about some situation in game and defaulted to staff as being the issue. But I doubt multiple people are coming together for a conspiracy theory of 'lets all message current players and tell them staff is bad to destroy the game!'. We also have people in this thread and others talking about past experience and current experience. How far back does an experience have to be that its a bad faith argument and 'is holding back future growth'? How much 'hearsay' do I need, also lets keep in mind we aren't 'allowed' to see other peoples requests and what not, to hear before it's more than just hearsay and people are actually upset about something and disillusioned by the system.

Yes, vague-booking and hearsay only serve to hurt the community. What, precisely, is to be gained by purposefully submitting an issue, without any actionable details, which drives away new and old players alike, doesn't fix the core matter for the person doing it, demotivates the staff team and leaves everyone unsatisfied? Yes, we do have people in this thread talking about issues - their own - and they're being addressed or spoke upon in a transparent fashion. How far back? Since my post. That was the ask. That an apology be accepted and a fair chance be given to this team. Do I expect anyone to flat forget what happened before? No. I'm asking for both sides to maturely work together going forward so we don't just continue on in a circle of blame. As for seeing requests before hand - that is, frankly, no ones business but the participating parties.

" "I heard you broke a rule while I was off. I didn't bother to check the logs - you're now karma docked." "
I wouldn't really say these are the same thing. I also feel if staff is constantly 'hearing' about rule breaking that's cause for concern, either someone is actually breaking the rules or someone is actively out to get someone. The latter parts of this quote also have nothing to do with anything. "I heard from 3 close friends that this staffer was impolite and it caused them to leave the game " =/= "We've removed your karma without discussing it with you". One of these is a punitive action taken by a position of authority and the other is a possible reasoning behind a choice to leave the game.

So, no bad at all from someone who actively engages in trying to get more people to leave the game by spreading such and actively painting the game in a negative light, in place of addressing it and moving forward together? We'll agree to disagree here. Both actions are wrong - staff and player. Both harmed someone or multi someones.

A lot of the response sounded like what Veselka mentioned but I'll add my own 2 cents: "Your arguments are wrong and you don't know anything, go ask the people who aren't playing the game to get in touch with staff (And only us) so we can verify ourselves that we did nothing wrong"

Your argument is non-actionable as we have no details to take action on which serves neither side. If people wish their issues addressed, they should reach out so we can discuss the matter openly and honestly. <- There's the response. As we are the ones being charged with fixing the matter, yes - talk to us. Sadly, the three, four or twenty players that are whispered to in DM won't be able to assist you. We may very well have done something wrong and we want to fix it, as evidenced in my post and a few posts in this very thread.

[Shabago]

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

As a player, I would expect more than "Your Staff Complaint Request has been resolved". I would expect less than a paragraph detailing all the people you talked to, the runlogs you looked at, and the attitude of the staff/player involved.

• "We have looked into this situation, and you missed <x> part where <y> happened."
• "We looked at the runlogs, and have spoken to those involved."
• "<staffer> did not understand the scene the same way you did, and as a result, may have come off harsher than intended."
• "While we do not condone the actions of <person>, here is <some edited leadup to the event>. We hope this allows some closure to the situation.

Something I've actively adopted doing for complaints - player or staff, since I started my Admin+ position and wish to continue forward as Producer. Providing *specific* action taken, is out, as I don't wish to actively shame people. However, a vague - action was taken because we agree with your position, so and so was spoken to and given guidance on how to avoid doing X again. If it persists or repeats, let us know and greater action will be taken. If it isn't something we agree with, stating the reasoning for that position is warranted.

[Jihelu]

Reading through this now, will edit when done, but I don't know if it's my screen or everyone's but blue text kinda hurting my eyes. - Edit: I put my glasses on. Weird that blue only fucks with my eyes without them.

"I don't have spare energy for people outside of it that just want to cause a stink, rather than address it constructively."

I think a whole lot of what has happened in the past week or so, spurned on by me and others, was rather constructive. If you disagree, we'll have to take it to the charity boxing match because I don't agree.

That's about all I think I have to add that could be constructively other than 'ur wrong'.

[Alesan]

Adding a quick note about the blue text - if you are using the forums with a dark theme, it's nigh-impossible to read.

[Veselka]

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I'm heartened to hear that the nomenclature of the Staff Complaint/Feedback would be considered, along with the rules in the helpfile, to better encourage this current/next generation of players to be more forthcoming with Staff/Producers when they have a shitty experience. That's all I was really pushing for.

Yes -- It will take time to unlearn what has basically been years of expecting Staff to close ranks and jump down your throat if you bring an issue up or file a staff complaint. Like you said -- It's probably best not to dredge up the past, but sometimes, the past kinda clings to you.

I had a recent event this week (and actually over the last 2 months) that I've hesitated filing Staff Complaints over, because it presents a negative attitude (Here's a player who complains about Staff, sigh, let's pass on future roles for them), creates a feeling of us vs them, and overall generates a sort of negative black cloud over the role in general. Instead I've been grinning and bearing it and just trying to focus on the positive stuff. But that doesn't seem...I don't know. Correct? I feel that if a Staffer is being a rude dude, a player should feel confident to point it out to Producers. But even by nature of this response, I feel the tone is "You're presenting dishonest bad faith arguments, I don't really believe what you're saying, show me some evidence and I'll think about it", which is...

Kind of the way it's always been.

Part 1:

Awesome. Glad a positive change could come about from it being discussed or brought up.

Part 2:

Sure, that's understandable. Real or imagined insults, issues or miscommunications that impact us (broad strokes here) in real life or this online hobby of ours, will generally be remembered for a good stretch of time. This is regardless of the apology or offer of relationship being accepted or not. It's up to both sides to come at the matter maturely with fresh eyes now and move forward to not repeat the same mistakes.

Part 3:

You seem pretty well spoken here? You weren't hesitant to bring it up in a vague sense, which is - in my opinion - worse, as it gives us zero to go on for details to fix. I doubt your complaint would be a fly off the handle rage, curse-filled rant to result in a negative view over your offered feedback. Not really your style. One issue brought up has already been addressed, agreed upon and is being fixed ala point 1, as well. There is no us Vs. them, so I'm sorry, but you're painting yourself into a corner of your own making. Rather than supplying the feedback and details that need addressing, you're instead impacting your own enjoyment of the game, which then affects those around you, by way of not being as energetic, invested, committed - whatever word you wish to use. This, in turn, hurts the area of the game said staff are looking over and *wanting* to be enjoyable. That's the nature of their very role in that zone. Grin and bear accomplished both sides to lose. So - again, I'm asking you to speak up and submit it so it can be given a proper look and be addressed so both sides aren't impacted.

As for tone, I'm sorry you're deciding to take it that way. It's a genuine offer to help. About the only portion of that last line that I would say is something I - or anyone - would ask for is the evidence portion. That applies to a day one new player or a very veteran staff member. If a staff member came to me and said "Veselka just posted every detail about the death of their last PC that's only a week old on the boards." - My first response is "Link?"

It's not a matter of distrust to a team member or, in your case, a player to have something to go off of. It's due diligence, gaining information and not punishing some side on say so. We each have our own minds, which are made up from what we can see/hear/read.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Text / Tone is hard to convey, and I don't want it to seem that I'm either harboring negative emotions or bad feelings or ill will towards Staff. What you say here makes sense -- If you see something, say something, and provide evidence so that it can be documented and followed like a paper trail. I'm an emotional creature, and not one ruled by logic, so this kind of approach can scare me, but I will keep it in mind in the future.

I know that Staff have bad days as well. I can sometimes sense tone starting off angered/seemingly spicy, and then backing off the throttle a bit as sends go on. Re-reading some things that 'made me mad' in context and with some objectiveness made me realize 'eh, they might've been having an off moment or shit going on too'. So in part, I think I need to be more aware of that going forward. I'm not the only one on mood-altering medications or having a bad day.

We're here to play a game and have fun. I wish I could go back to my teenage self and tell him "Hey. Stop taking life so seriously. For real." Then again, I should probably tell my thirty six year old self that as well.

Again, thanks to Shabago and Staff for considering all of this mishegas, and like Jihelu said, I actually think some good came out of it (weirdly) and also simultaneously (unrelated to this thread). So...Let's put the right foot forward.

I'll have to keep in mind (moving forward) that the ArmageddonMUD I started playing when I was 15 isn't the same one it is now, 21 years later. That should be amazingly obvious, but I forget that sometimes. We've made leaps and bounds, and the Staff of 5 years ago is completely different from the one now (Shabago wasn't even back on Staff at that point, IIRC). So yes -- There is ALWAYS room to improve. But the fact this thread is still open, and doesn't have passive-aggressive snark coming from Staff, is exactly proof in the pudding.

So thanks again to Shabago and the rest of Staff for volunteering their time, and taking the time to not only go through this thread and respond, but volunteering your time to the community and the game. We can all do better (always) but it's time better spent improving the game, rather than GDBing.

[Usiku]

Something about tone of voice when communicating in text. I'm sure almost everyone who communicates frequently via text is aware of it, but I know that personally I have to constantly remind myself. We project our own feelings and expectations onto the text we receive from other people. If we expect someone to be snarky, we will read their messages in that tone. If we are grumpy, defensive, angry etc.. we will project those negative attitudes onto the messages we read from others.

Which is not to say that people aren't snarky, aggressive or generally unpleasant via text, they certainly are, but they are also often not. But I do try (and I have to really try sometimes) to remember this and to give the benefit of the doubt, and force myself to imagine the tone of something in the best possible way it could be interpreted rather than the worst: slower, calmer, gentler, friendlier, less snippy. Unless the aggression or unpleasantness is actually in the language itself, it's always going to be better for everyone involved to assume that it isn't there rather than assume it is.

If I read something and take offense to the tone, I like to leave and come back to it when I'm in a better mood and give it another a chance that way. This is probably obvious to a lot of people, but I don't think it hurts to remind on it, since I have to remind myself fairly frequently. Plus, this will always be an issue in a community that almost entirely communicates via text. Misinterpreting tone can be an unfortunately destructive type of miscommunication.

[yousuff]

I really wasn't at all going to bother sending in anything relating to this topic as it felt like wasted effort but reading other people's responses I figured I'd throw out my own grievances, I very recently got back into the game after a year+ hiatus so my interaction has been minimal, but this prompted me to read through some requests from 2018 to the point that it's put a super sour taste in my mouth. Not to be dramatic but it's actually reminded me why I left in the first place and I will be doing so again. In 2018 I can see threatens of storage because of "non adherence to documentation" - they even changed all the celven roleplay docs at that time because of myself and another player daring to play city elves that left Red Storm (in fact I didn't even leave! Just a character in my rolecall family frequently moved around!) and threatened to store me because of that player's actions. Here's the wall of text of it all. Here's a few notes from it:

Staff accusing me of collaborating OOC (outside of asking eachother for our playtimes, and one instance noted to facilitate the transfer of a huge item mentioned that left us unable to do anything for RL days without having a set time to meet due to its huge weight and being stuck sitting around with it)

Staff threatening to store me for a rolecall family member's actions

Staff changing city elf documentation to prevent us from leaving Red Storm after agreeing with the family rolecall's concept (raider city elves) after a month played. Read the new city elf docs vs the old to see this for yourselves.

Staff telling me I'm abusing my magick subguild? I was playing my very first whiran_tempest with no branched spells and were telling me I was abusing spells I hadn't even branched yet? Uh... Thanks for telling me I get those spells I guess?

Staff raising the fact I'd been banned in the game before five years prior for "multiplaying" - creating a new account to avoid past grievances I had with staff and I was trying to wipe the slate clean (completely irrelevant - this was dealt with five years ago and I arrogantly assumed was behind us, but I guess five years isn't long enough basically a "nice account you've got there, shame if something happened to it.)

etc etc

Alot of it is basically me sucking staff's cock to try and get back on their good side as you'll see - but do you know what? If there's any new players considering this game - or anyone else considering rolling a new character after a break from this game take my advice, don't. The staff for this game will go out of their way to bully you for the most arbitrary of reasons, and there's no getting around that until you concede you're wrong and they are right. So thank you whoever started this thread, you've reminded me not to waste my time further on this game.

https://imgur.com/a/2mzIDK7

Edit: Just to note at one point in a screenshot above I say "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." when I meant "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have NO advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." because I didn't even know what spells the subguild got




Edit again:

Here's the other player's thoughts on it too by the way so I'm not the only person targeted here:

https://imgur.com/a/1k3rz47

Before the rolecall even began they also warned me that staff did not like them and would likely fuck me over too before I had even created my character in chargen:

https://imgur.com/a/WNswpAw

[Tranquil]

This was 3 years ago.

I can assure you, from another player's perspective, that things aren't like that anymore.

[yousuff]

This was 3 years ago.

I can assure you, from another player's perspective, that things aren't like that anymore.

Considering I can see other people airing their grievances in this thread re. bad experiences with staff complaints you'll forgive me for having my doubts

[Tranquil]

I think it's fair to air grievances from however long ago, but making it the fault of the current staff steam after so long doesn't seem right to me after they've clearly taken efforts to change how things are done.

Sure, bad things happened, but I can say from my own experiences that things have improved by alot. I'd recommend you play to see for yourself instead of letting things from years ago sour your taste.

Of course it's your choice, and I can understand why that interaction has lasted after reading through it. I'd certainly say the response would be far different nowadays.

[Dar]

Actually, maybe we should discuss Yousuff's case.

I first read his posts on my phone and I could not read the screen shots of his back and forth with staff, only what he wrote on GDB. And to be honest, I was kind of miffed. I mean Staff is capable of arbitrary targetting individual players and players cant really defend themselves, because all interaction is private. An ultimate divide and conquer! I was itching to get back to office to my PC to read the screenshots and write a big 'WTF Staff?' post.

Alright. Now, I read the screen shots. And ... Wtf, Yousuff?


I myself, with very zero information, only your own words in your own posts, in your own interaction with staff, can clearly tell that you very much spoke with Scythe's player OOC. 


Let's say I'm a Staffer. Get a spicy clan application of Celves in Red Storm. This is gonna be tough thing to pull off, but at least one of the players seems cool and I let this through.

The players get in. And here are my observations.

One Celf is acting like a Delf.
Tribe docs written in a way to circumvent Celf to make them into Delf.
Three PKs within a week.
During conversation, it is painfully obvious that at least two players of the tribe are regularly talking OOC to each other.


Yousuff. I don't know you. I don't know what was this tribe, nor do I have any kind of predetermined bias about you. All I've got are the screenshots you've posted. And the picture that's gradually coming up to me is a bunch of ooc collaborating PKillers that want to bend theme to remove role limitations.

And from staff's posts. I'm getting a, "Stop talking to each other OOC, PKilling for no rhyme and reason, and begin acting like celves that your characters are and then we can start taking you more seriously then just a bunch of friends who came together ooc to play some hack and slash."

And your response is, "My celf is doing everything properly. I don't know what the other player is doing. I don't talk to anyone OOC, But Aethar's player is not too pleased about being killed and Scythe's player feels singled out. I know this by not talking to any of them OOC. True Story."



Now. It's probably not that bad. And I'm being extraordinary harsh. This is due to ignorance as I don't know the full situation of what happened. But I kid you not, this is the conclusion that I am forced to draw, just from reading the screenshots you yourself have posted.


And all that, only 'after' reading the screens. If you didn't post them, I would've been convinced that Staff really singled you out and went down hard on you. And I was planning to be all, "Four years ago? Most Staff active now were active then. Brokkr and Shabago for sure. Wtf, staff?" 

[yousuff]

I really am not invested in this enough to even humour your poor apologism for staff with a proper reply so I'll allow a full log of everything I said to the player in question for all to see (outside of their original application to join the tribe) just to shut you down

https://imgur.com/a/lb8YV94

tl;dr

one instance where i asked to meet them to exchange a super heavy object (an enormous amount of coins - i'm upfront about that and mentioned it previously) and then it's all them saying staff is really giving them flak


Edit:

also the tribe docs that were sent to staff were "we are a raider clan and intend to kill people in the sands" -> we adhered to that and didn't pk without reason. Not to mention I personally was involved in ONE pk, you're making it out that I was killing 4 people in an irl week, aswell as lumping me in with the actions of another player (which outside of what they told me IC, I wasn't even aware of - so why threaten me in the request tool?).

ALso friendly reminder they literally changed the city elf documentation as a result of this, the old city elf documentation made NO reference whatsoever that city elves were not to linger outside of their city, and as you didn't have access to the documentation I submitted staff (and they approved); here you go:

Documentation:

Name: The Mof'Atai

Originally the descendants of desert dwelling elves, who lived on the periphery of the salt flats, this tribe's history tells a tale of plunder, pillaging, and opportunism.
While rarely outright confrontational so as to not draw the ire of the nearby city of Allanak, this tribe's members are no strangers to conflict with soldiers of the black.
While never an overly large tribe, numbering at some two hundred members at its height, the tribe prospered following the many skirmishes between the armies of Allanak and Tuluk.
Following such battles, the Sol'Istrii, ever opportunistic would scavange the corpses and slay the injured for profit, acts which would ultimately lead to their decline and exile to Red Storm.
After killing a heavily wounded captain of Allanak's militia for his equipment following one such skirmish, despite offers of ransom, they drew the ire of the city after the act was reported by a scout.
Assuming them far too occupied with the war to mount reprisals, the tribe, offguard, was overwhelmed by a night-time raid on its camp by soldiers leading to its near destruction.
The few forty survivors fled to Red Storm for shelter, where the tribe's remnants have lived ever since, bitter, but still viable, in the dark alleys beyond sight of even the Sandlord's law.

The Sol'Istii, like all elven tribes, are assured in their superiority over others, be they fellow elves or inferior races.
Their tribe accepts new members exclusively as mates to existing members. Their children by default are considered a part of the tribe, but with the death of their Sol'Istii mate their membership to the tribe is forfeit.
Vultures are seen as sacred, they embody the tribe's spirit - opportunism, scavenging, and the ability to flee a scene at a moment's notice.
Whirans are accepted among the tribe as their affinity for staying unseen, finding valuables among the sands and intrinsic instinct for danger are integral to the tribe's identity.
While not afraid of a fight, it is seen as far from cowardly to avoid a direct conflict.
The tribe emphasises a keen understanding of risk versus reward, but the life of a Mof'Atai is wroth far more than any material object.

The tribe holds the belief that all things of value are by virtue of their desirability the property of the Mof'Atai.
The tribe will attempt to "reclaim" it, at all costs barring the life of a tribe's member, or losing objects more valuable than what they seek to gain.
The Atai are the tribe's whirans, and often consulted as to rumours of objects of great value or worth seeking. The wind is said to whisper in their ears as to the whereabouts of such things.

The tribe offers association status, those whose lives are expendable in the search for valuables.
Their lives are seen as an acceptable cost in seeking objects determined by the Atai as worth pursuing, such as their use as "fall" guys in rigged transactions, illegal activities, or as a meatshield in a fight.
Of course knowledge of their expendability is kept secret from such associates, who are encouraged to work with the tribe's members regardless of their race.

The chieftan (The Ah'Mof) is chosen from among any of the tribe's blooded members, even children, by virtue of their ability to return with the most valuable object they can find.
Those who wish to gain the title of Ah'Mof are stripped of all their belongings except for basic clothing and a weapon/shield of their choosing, and sent out.
After a year, they are expected to return with an object of considerable value, the elf with the most valuable object is the new Ah'Mof. Whirans are often drawn to this role, as their keen sense allow them to more easily locate such objects.
The Ah'Mof is responsible for establishing the tribe's priorities, from inner conflicts to external threats. They may also suggest to the Atai of objects of value to be reclaimed by the tribe.

The tribe will be currently considered leaderless, as the Ah'Mof disappeared without trace. OOCLY he will have simply died on a trip from Red Storm to Luir's, he travelled with another non-tribal elf associate who died also.
The search for a new Ah'Mof will be underway, and my character will not be trying currently to gain the title.

The tribe's goals (from my own perspective) will be gaining influence within Red Storm, trying to perhaps aquire an alley/warehouse to call their own, bolster its numbers by kidnapping/breeding, raiding and swindling, as well as in the future aquiring rare objects as per the documentation provided.

[Shabago]

With Yousuff's permission, I'll start with a generic break down as some of you know I do in character reports and its like, and supply any additional information with **

I really wasn't at all going to bother sending in anything relating to this topic as it felt like wasted effort but reading other people's responses I figured I'd throw out my own grievances, I very recently got back into the game after a year+ hiatus so my interaction has been minimal, but this prompted me to read through some requests from 2018 to the point that it's put a super sour taste in my mouth. Not to be dramatic but it's actually reminded me why I left in the first place and I will be doing so again. In 2018 I can see threatens of storage because of "non adherence to documentation" - they even changed all the celven roleplay docs at that time because of myself and another player daring to play city elves that left Red Storm (in fact I didn't even leave! Just a character in my rolecall family frequently moved around!) and threatened to store me because of that player's actions. Here's the wall of text of it all. Here's a few notes from it:

** Full admission to the player base, the doc change they're referring to was updated. At the time of this being an issue, we (falsely) believed that the rule was evident, due to GDB posts, logistical inverse of Desert Elf help file, and heavily alluded to in the original C-elf role play file, with the 'City-based movements' - 'City based goals', and so on that was laid out within. As it was not completely black and white, spelled out, word for word - we added it, in order to avoid such an issue in the future.

** You did, in fact, raise the complaint despite the claim made here. The last one that any connection to the above, responded to by Nathvaan, you had stated you were satisfied with the outcome and kudos him for his ability to lay out the matter in a concise matter and provide insight/closure to the held believes that you were being "targeted" in connection to the family role and the role at the time.

- The storage 'threat' that came in the screen shot came after both parties where clearly engaged in OOC communication and baseless (or unreported) PKs (help rules: 6, 7 and 'help kill' under notes) and not solely (or at all) based upon the doc issue. As further noted in your screen shots, the ability to move forward with that course correction on the docs was met with support from myself, to facilitate your goals.

Staff accusing me of collaborating OOC (outside of asking eachother for our playtimes, and one instance noted to facilitate the transfer of a huge item mentioned that left us unable to do anything for RL days without having a set time to meet due to its huge weight and being stuck sitting around with it)

** Matching reports of matching issues, almost verbatim. Your own screen shots provided here. Laid out knowledge of one anothers requests or actions (also alluded to in your own screenshots) and in the request tool = OOC collusion. There wasn't a need to accuse you when you ...told us?

Staff threatening to store me for a rolecall family member's actions

- As mentioned above, threat of storage was due to OOC collusion and senseless PKs without any notification or report (or even RP/IC valid reasoning once one was finally submitted after said ask). The ask to adjust to the documentation (seemed?) to be followed and thus - wasn't an issue (for you specifically, but not your partner)

Staff changing city elf documentation to prevent us from leaving Red Storm after agreeing with the family rolecall's concept (raider city elves) after a month played. Read the new city elf docs vs the old to see this for yourselves.

- Touched upon above. We falsely assumed that was quite plain, and given years of game play between you both, a simple 'given' by interactive game lore with other players. Whether honest misunderstanding or an attempt of rule lawyering, having your cake and eating it too as a mix-match D-elf and C-elf tribe is not fair to other players and you were asked to adjust to a level playing field and to avoid setting a poor precident.

Staff telling me I'm abusing my magick subguild? I was playing my very first whiran_tempest with no branched spells and were telling me I was abusing spells I hadn't even branched yet? Uh... Thanks for telling me I get those spells I guess?

Maybe I'm missing this portion in the read (some of them are really small text) to find the request in question? I can find where Brokkr and Seidhr mentioned your sub-guild as not being a reason to be out and about the Known without cause? I don't see the wording of abuse being applied?

Staff raising the fact I'd been banned in the game before five years prior for "multiplaying" - creating a new account to avoid past grievances I had with staff and I was trying to wipe the slate clean (completely irrelevant - this was dealt with five years ago and I arrogantly assumed was behind us, but I guess five years isn't long enough basically a "nice account you've got there, shame if something happened to it.)

** Akin to having the slate wiped clean since Nathvaan's reply and continued support to your account after your above grievance with success PCs, including the one in question, then pulling it back up here, despite such? Your repeated attempts in request, and this very thread, to keep proclaiming innocence and persecution or 'singling' out was met by providing evidence that actions have consequences. This sort of post is expecting current staff to be held accountable for something that happened 3-4 years ago, and yet your own actions shouldn't be considered, when relevant in the context of your complaint?

etc etc

Alot of it is basically me sucking staff's cock to try and get back on their good side as you'll see - but do you know what? If there's any new players considering this game - or anyone else considering rolling a new character after a break from this game take my advice, don't. The staff for this game will go out of their way to bully you for the most arbitrary of reasons, and there's no getting around that until you concede you're wrong and they are right. So thank you whoever started this thread, you've reminded me not to waste my time further on this game.

** I'll supply my own recommendation. Play the game and don't do the following:

- Get Banned.
- Get banned again. 
- OOC with other characters to give them sensitive information IG.
- Disregard (v)NPCs and game theme.
- Actively share IC happening of a current PC on ooc channels.
- Attempt grief PKs against link dead players. Knowing they're Link dead.
- Actively engage in OOC communication in breach of rules 6/7 again.
- Disregard (v)npc population when repeatedly attacking/wiping an area

Kept vague but to the point, over conduct. You're innocent, staff are bullying you and singling you out for no reason?

Bygones being bygones, we looked to work with you on your 3rd chance, leading into 2018, had a positive response with Nathvaan over your concerns on this particular issue, and gave you karma despite past actions due to your RP talent. You were not stored. You're not banned. You have karma and you continued to receive support both during and after this PC in question.

I've admitted our error on the documentation gap here, twice - I'm sorry for it. I was eager to work with you going forward as was stated - so, frankly, this framing of a complaint/attack against the team years after the fact is a punch in the gut. At *any* point, you would be welcome in the game and community, should some ownership on your own part be taken and not have such acts repeated.

https://imgur.com/a/2mzIDK7

Edit: Just to note at one point in a screenshot above I say "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." when I meant "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have NO advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." because I didn't even know what spells the subguild got




Edit again:

Here's the other player's thoughts on it too by the way so I'm not the only person targeted here:

https://imgur.com/a/1k3rz47

Before the rolecall even began they also warned me that staff did not like them and would likely fuck me over too before I had even created my character in chargen:

As they have no given permission for context or notes on their own account, I'll not be posting them. Suffice it to say, they're not glowing and *despite* them, they have 2 karma. Strange sort of "dislike and fucking over."

So, as a little blurb in closing here - I'll reiterate that the purpose of my post and this thread is to actively create a more welcoming community, apologise for past errors, and move us all forward to a better place. That won't be done with purposefully misleading posts with the (seeming, rather than assuming) intent of just causing a fire, to keep holding that attempt back.

[yousuff]

Reserving this space.

I take it with the open sharing to the request tool, you're fine giving permission for me to share the rest of the context when I get back in a couple of hours?

go for it

[Lotion]

can't wait for this smackdown, gonna be poggers

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

The grizzled, scarred veteran sets down his beer, and rises from the lengthy, dragon-carved round table to address it.

"Yarr killin' my fekkin buzz Jihelu, Youseff. Ya seem like yer itching for a fight, and I'm tryin' nothin' more to fill an army wit' recruits yer scarin' off." He points a gnarled finger at ~Jihelu, "I've been playing for twenty three years, and am now thirty five. That's right, ya heard me, I'm an outlaw!"

"If ya really think age an seniority matter, shaddup a minute. Let Shabago skin your long dead horse and we'll sell the fekkin' parts to the storytellers in Cenyr and you can buy a pretty necklace." He glares over at ~Youseff, the pressure from the growth on his brain making the rage in his bulging eyes mulish and palpable. "I've met breeds with more honor. You're givin' a severe disservice to at least Faithful Lord Shabago Travago, and bringin' a severely defensive attitude, turned offensive 'tude long ago, to a completely new meetin' a minds. Ya seem like you want this deal to go south."

He looks up, "Oh, yeah, you told newbies: Don't Play." He frowns sourly, face scarred by the cold winds of the beach, where he lives beneath the bridge and plays when a church goer brings him the charged battery. He holds his head, pain evident on his features. "Either work with me here, on Zalanthas, and make this place better, or get out the gates. To the worms and gith with ya. Enjoy the wasteland yer tryin' to condemn newbies to, if these walls are so bad."

[yousuff]

I would unironically place money on you being on staff, checking the request tool, realising I'm 100% in the right and now you're doing damage control.

What you basically just said is "yeah you're right, but hey look what's that behind you! Lol look the other way! Lol!"

I'm calling it now, even if I'm not completely in the right here staff will entirely dismiss me and they'll offer absolutely nothing in the way of "we mishandled that" or anything of the like. It'll be a black and white "we are right and you are wrong", because that's how it's always been in Armageddon mud.

Edit to add:

As confrontational as my above posts are, it's really me just venting my frustration - I'll meet staff midway if they address mistakes and amend some of the nastier things I said re. urging people not to play, but I see no indication that they've changed whatsoever and other's statements in this thread only reinforce my view of that. Lets see what Shabago has to say - I'm not looking to ruin the game because there's a reason I've played it for so many years, it's fun... I mean I guess you know what I'm getting at here?

[Jihelu]

I have no idea what the hell you just wrote but if you have arguments against what I've said Grey you can type them out and I'll actually read them.