The crisis new players are facing

[Aruven]

+1 on making smart assessments about playtimes with leaders, this is and has always been a thing that doesn't need fixing.

+1 Patuk. If turn over is massive (I genuinely due to my roles have been out of the loop on seeing this lately) among leadership positions, especially in focused areas, worth a look eh?

[Brytta Léofa]

Oh. also It wasnt ALWAYS bad. But the grind was crappy I did do a lot of fun roleplay and messed around but I was mostly spending my time trying to stay alive.

By the way, welcome, and glad you're having *some* fun.

[Maso]

Just to play devil's advocate a bit. It's supposed to be hard. The game is supposed to be challenging, the intention is that new PCs struggle to survive and have to scrimp and greb and beg and steal and figure out how to land on their feet. In that sense, the early days of Arm is a bit like a permadeath dungeon runner. You're supposed to die all the time and get 'used' to dying all the time. So that when you finally have a long-lived character and they die.. it doesn't come as too much of a surprise. Staff are not supposed to be watching over us and stopping us from dying.

While it is a roleplaying game, it is still a game, and you have to learn it and practice and get good at it to get further and 'beat the levels'.

I *wish* I could get some of that experience back now. I love those first few days of a new PC that are almost actually still a little bit hard, but that challenge of a 'new game' will never come back. Once you've figured it all out, then that phase is over.

That said, there is a wealth of information on the website, in mansa's guide, in the brains of fellow players etc on how to survive. My honest advice for a struggling new player would be not to get too attached or hung up on character concepts yet, save the really good ones for later and just practice and learn the game part. Find the right spots to forage, figure out the little 'activities' to make coin (they are on the website), make friends when you can, most people will help you, sometimes they will also kill you.

On clans and leadership availability... that just seems like bad timing and bad luck. Activity ebbs and flows all over the game, one minute Luir's is all the rage, the next it's Storm or Allanak. One minute Kadius is booming, the next they're all dead and everyone is in Kurac. Sometimes you get unlucky and drop into a quiet place, sometimes you get super lucky and drop into the middle of chaotic madness. It's just.. kinda how it goes.

I tend to go through a whole bunch of short-lived characters (like 10+) before I finally land on one that 'clicks', that finds the right people I enjoy, that develops into a character I want to play. Some of this is just about expectations I guess.

[Lotion]

Newb help is plastered all over, The GDB has a dedicated Ask the staff section!

Ask the staff is different from the newbie questions subforum.

[Veselka]

Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

I personally think a few clans should have a complex NPC with a robust discussion list/animated talking points about joining Clan X. Make it the Byn, the Legions, the Arm of the Dragon, and the Atrium (or w/e).

Make it a part of the "newbie starting area". A PC can just decide to join a clan from chargen.

Clan leaders get notified when new people login and join their clan. They show up on Who C with some symbol that denotes its a new player.

I think on boarding new PCs would help a ton. The game's learning curve is ridiculously hard as is. Let's set up new Players for success, even if that leads to some new carru boot collections.

This isn't anyone's fault. We are in 2021. It's a new time and era. Let's keep positive about how to change the front end of the game to be more accessible to new players. Let's keep positive and dive into the back end of the game and figure out why leadership PCs aren't sticking around and aren't feeling fulfilled devoting hours of their life into a dead end. Let's do it. Without throwing shit at one another.

[Lotion]

On the topic of the derailment, being able to app a PC straight into a clan would be so nice. I've stored at least three characters that were meant to join a clan straight out of chargen but because I couldn't find a PC leader in a reasonable amount of time I just stored.

[tiny rainbow]

(moved my own post to the other thread to stay on topic about newbie stuff)

[9001]

The only recruitable clan that even remotely makes sense to me to be able to app straight into without a special app is the Byn - and even that feels a bit iffy. You aren't doing a newbie any favors by dropping them into a clan that may not have activity around their playtimes, or people that are in a good position guide them. And I hate the idea of non-newbies doing it. Bypassing the clan's leader PCs when it comes to recruitment is a good way make them feel even less empowered and engaged in their role, in my experience.

As for ideas to get people into clans when there's an issue with timing and finding people, I think we should have a mechanism where you can go to the gates of whatever clan you want to join, and do something like: 'recuitment Amosa', where your character's name or alias is Amosa, and it'd leave a message with the gate guard for the clan that your character is seeking recruitment. And then it'd automatically post a message on an IC rumor board in the clan like, 'the muscular, stern-eyed woman calling herself Amosa is asking about recruitment.' Or maybe it could even be put up on the clan gdb somehow. It wouldn't just be the ones with hiring powers that would see the message either - that way anyone in the clan could know someone was seeking recruitment, and maybe reach out to interact and get the ball rolling.

Also - delegated hiring. Give semi-leader PCs (Trainee Merchants/Corporals/etc) the coded ability to hire with the expectation that they only do so with permission. The leader PC gives them permission to interview a specific prospective hire and bring them on, or something like that, and if it's abused there are IC consequences - demotion, the hiring ability taken away, that sort of thing. And maybe if there's no active leader PC and there's someone promising trying to join the clan, they could reach out to staff for permission to hire that person.

I feel like the game used to have a near perfect environment for newbies in the GMHs back when they had hunter branches. They were places where you could learn about crafting, hunting, and politics. At their best, they'd have a wonderfully organic synergy, the crafting branch giving purpose to the hunting branch and vice versa. When one side waned, the other would support it. An experienced Merchant could guide and support hunters, and experienced hunters could help out new crafters in more ways than just bringing them things. I really think bringing back the hunter branches in the GMHs would do wonders for the game, not just when it comes to giving new players good environments to be in, but when it comes to leader burnout for those particular clans as well.

[Nao]

[moved to the other thread]

More relevant to the newbie problem: water is more of a problem than food in my experience. Maybe thirst should be reduced for new players, new characters or (gasp) even all characters. Vets already know the various ways to supply themselves with water and don't die from thirst.

Allowing higher-ranked minions to recruit is another thing that would help if the leader has low playtimes or happens to be absent for any reason, temporarily or permanently.

[Veselka]

I dunno. When I am playing a Byn Sergeant, one of my least favorite things about the role is getting contacted 2-3 times a day by a new Pc wanting to join.

They give me a generic background. For all I know they are a secret magicker.  But I won't find that out in the interview. For all I know they're a criminal, but they aren't going to tell me that during the interview. I give them a regurgitated shpiel about the rules that they may or may not follow, and could easily be given by a NPC. Then they get an Aba and choice of weapons.

Then the actual fun begins. Through actual play in the clan, all becomes clear and dynamic.

The actual interview process is about 90% meaningless and a waste of time for the leadership PC. Instead of plotting or going on contracts, and when they are on contract elsewhere and a newbie finds your mind and wants to join....it's just another cause of getting pulled in 30 different t direction and this one is perhaps the dumbest, considering the onboard could ostensibly happen through a NPC at the Byn gates or during PC creation, and drop them inside the compound instead of the Gaj.

[Barsook]

The actual interview process is about 90% meaningless and a waste of time for the leadership PC. Instead of plotting or going on contracts, and when they are on contract elsewhere and a newbie finds your mind and wants to join....it's just another cause of getting pulled in 30 different t direction and this one is perhaps the dumbest, considering the onboard could ostensibly happen through a NPC at the Byn gates or during PC creation, and drop them inside the compound instead of the Gaj.

I think that is most active time wasting thing for a leadership PC, IC. I think that could be done for GMH's also, but not Noble Houses as well, those characters have to be the cream of the crop.

[Shaydee]

I really like the idea of an option for new players to have characters start out in a clan from character creation, if not the byn perhaps a different or new clan that is a designated newbie clan (which to be honest I always felt like the byn was kind of a clan for newbies to join to learn things, but reading some comments I guess that was wrong of me to think)? I'm not sure how that would work out, but it could be useful, especially for new players now? I know so many people that have shown interest in Armageddon but have been completely turned off by the sheer amount of information to shift through on the website. Perhaps an extended newbie area that has a small temporary clan to teach basics of survival? Yeah there are easy and safe ways to make coin but new players don't always think about those when they are first starting out and trying to learn the layout, as well as learn customs, their PC, other PCs, how to interact with others, and the world around them (especially if they are completely new to MUDs like I was when I first started out). Reading the documents, retaining the information and also implementing it are all very different things IMO. Things that are easy and come to me now, were things I had to constantly ask about or reread when I was starting out.

I know for a fact that if I had found Armageddon on my own, I would have been extremely overwhelmed and not lasted long at all. I don't like bothering people, even still now I don't like bothering people with questions, especially when I feel as though I should know the answer to the question, or should be able to figure out another path on my own. Maybe have the NPCs that buy things that grebbers can collect have a small locked post in the rumor boards, or have a rumor board set up in the newbie area having 'job listings' for those NPCs available for new players to see would be an option? (I honestly don't remember what the newbie area entails as is? I have been thinking about going to it again to refresh myself but feel as though I shouldn't because I've been playing awhile already?

Honestly, the amount of information on the website is still overwhelming to me, I like to know things before I play, which is why there are many races I have still yet to play, i have read and reread the documentation, but I still don't feel confident enough to play for example a desert elf. I have had a concept for a desert elf written up for over a year and still don't feel ready despite reading and rereading the documentation.

When I was starting out I asked my husband so many things, sure I made my own mistakes as well and definitely learned from them, but when you start out there's a lot of information your PC WOULD know, that you don't know simply because you are new. Stuff that isn't even included in the things you should know page, or at least it wasn't, I haven't checked that page in a minute. Most would say go to the GDB or discord with these questions but sometimes it's nice to know someone you can ask without feeling like it's a menial question, or feeling like you are bothering anyone over something small. Not to mention sometimes it's just a quick question in the moment, like something as simple as is chocolate a thing? Is rice a thing? (I was and am still an over thinker when it comes to small details).

[Barsook]

I do like your suggestion about having a job board in the newbie area as newbie quests to learn the game from combat to grebbing to crafting.

I don't think an auto join for clans is a good as it requires the leaders (and other players) to give a tour of the compound/clan grounds.

[X-D]

Job board in newbie area seems fine to me as well.

[Lotion]

A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

[X-D]

Sure you can, We all do...But we are talking about new players I thought.

[Veselka]

Sure you can, We all do...But we are talking about new players I thought.

Definitely, and with new players, I feel like a script can load up an NPC who forces the PC to follow them, leads them around the compound, and does the whole Shpiel. Tells them the rules. Other PCs that are around may contribute or follow along. At the end of the tour, the NPC poofs away with an emote, and the new PC is left in the compound.

Along with this, scripting a notification to online T'zai Byn Sergeants that a new player has joined the clan.

Honestly -- I wouldn't mind a bit of the OOC-ness of this, because it's honestly a drag on the leadership role to constantly be pulled back to the compound to recruit New PC Soandso, who may or may not log in ever again, and take another 30 minutes to an hour of your life away for it.

This should be automated. And I think it can be automated in a tasteful, helpful way to both the new PC / player and the leadership role.

[Barsook]

I'm on the fence for that suggestion, but more for than not for it.  If it's only for the new player's first couple characters or something like that.

[Brytta Léofa]

A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

The "tour" can even just be a URL with a map of the Byn compound, a list of rules, and the current training schedule. (Hey, why doesn't this exist already? It'd be a pretty simple project.)

Strongly in favor of automating the newbie -> Byn pipeline. I think it could be done in a way that's less obnoxious for Sergeants than the status quo and successfully converts some of those linkdead-in-the-Gaj folks.

[Barsook]

A tour of the byn grounds can be easily automated and if someone has played enough in a clan then there's no reason to make them wait around for a leader. Next time I join the byn maybe I can oocly ask for us to make the tour virtual

The "tour" can even just be a URL with a map of the Byn compound, a list of rules, and the current training schedule. (Hey, why doesn't this exist already? It'd be a pretty simple project.).

That's fine.

[Maso]

Feels like people are forgetting this is ultimately a roleplay game. The process of getting into the Byn (or any other clan), the quest for finding someone and having to ask around for them, the process of being interviewed, the process of getting a tour and being shown where you can keep your stuff etc - these are all opportunities for RP and scenes and potential for other things to happen.

Sure if you've done it 100 times maybe you don't appreciate it anymore, but these simple little interactions at the beginning of any character, even for vet players, are usually when most people are figuring out their character, who they are, how do they talk, how to they respond to questions, are they confident, bold, shy, nervous etc.

These are like core experiences for early character development, and all the better that they predictable and routine most of the time, because you can easily compare how your characters behave. If they are 100% the same every single time... are you making identical characters one after another?

Now, for a NEW player... these are some of the first roleplay experiences they might ever have in the game... and you guys are really discussing automating it and pointing them at a map? The Byn isn't seen as a 'newbie' clan because it buffs up your weak characters, but because it's a good place for learning about the game and importantly how to roleplay in a controlled and 'safe-ish' environment with good exposure to theme (harsh).

That tour that your Sergeant (or Trooper) has done twenty times might be boring for you but it might also be in awe inspiring experience for a new player who hasn't experienced roleplay at the level of Arm before.. depending on how you play it. That could make or break the game for them. These are all valuable scenes.. if your PC is sick and tired of doing tours... Roleplay how sick and tired of it they are. If my first experience of Arm had been an automated joining of a clan and then a link to a map... I don't think I'd be here now.

About the only thing I agree with here is.. perhaps some mechanism of getting the names of people looking for leaders.. to leaders.. But honestly, if you're online and you've found the Leader-Of-Choice's name on the rumor board and you're trying to contact them during your play hours but having no luck.... it's probably not the clan for you right now.

[X-D]

Maso says what I did...Only better.

[Halaster]

Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

The main issue with this is that some leaders have used it to punish players.  Like the sergeant types who c, sees that Nandor the Relentless is online.  A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it.

I have no idea how much that happened, but it happened.  And I'm not saying we shouldn't give it to more leadership, maybe we should.  Just giving a reason why there's been hesitation in the past.

[Jihelu]

Give all leadership roles Who C. For the love of God.

The main issue with this is that some leaders have used it to punish players.  Like the sergeant types who c, sees that Nandor the Relentless is online.  A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it.

I have no idea how much that happened, but it happened.  And I'm not saying we shouldn't give it to more leadership, maybe we should.  Just giving a reason why there's been hesitation in the past.

Doesn't being barriered hide you from who-C?
Also it seems like a leader issue, not a game one, if someone does what you described.

"A little while later when Nandor shows up and the sergeant gives him shit about not being there, Nandor can lie and say he was on gate duty (code for being logged out).  But the sergeant knows he was lying and gives him shit about it."

I don't see an issue with this, as the sergeant could have easily walked over to the gate and gave a look around and noticed he wasn't there. So that means the sergeant walked to the training hall, didn't see his recruit/trooper/whatever, then checked the gate and he wasn't there.
A la: He's avoiding the schedule.

How does this interact with people who are actually virtual/barriered? I dunno. It sounds like a player trying to use an OOC construct ('I'm on Gate duty AKA I'm totally not online I swear') to explain an IC thing ('I wasn't at training')

Am I allowed to start using OOC constructs to justify  not being around in places? If I'm constantly barriered up and sneaking around outside as a bynner/private and my sergeant asks where I always am, when does it become an issue that I say 'gate duty'?

[Dar]

Interesting factor.

I haven't played for awhile. Twice now, I began the process of creating a character. And each time I abandoned it. Because the city is too different and new, the game changed a lot, and as I'm reading and grokking the lore In, there are a lot of shiny butterflies flying past. I'm still at it, a month past easy.


Newbies have it tough, man.