Re: Leadership

[Halaster]

What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

[Void]

3. Tendency toward stagnation imo. When there's a bunch of c-elves it is an amazing group to be in, but it can also be months of mainly solo RP if that group dies.

[betweenford]

What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

lemme preface this by saying too many of my pc's live way too damn long and I dont app for things when ive got a current pc

1. There are long periods of time where sometimes the only contracts you get can sometimes be escorts to and from places in the game world. I personally find that to be alot less interesting than like... going out and killing things. That generally dissuades me from joining the Byn at all let alone leadership roles. Not doing those things, however, causes the gears of other organizations to lock up and run not-so-smoothly if there's not enough ppl in game zone 1, so now YOU'RE at fault.
2)influences from all over the game world can grind and wear you down, everyone wants cool shit, few people want to be endlessly passing out cool shit. layer this on by the dedicated grebber making more money than you through automated jobs and fees and bribes and payoffs to people and even seeing numbers go up can be a bit dry to scrabble together profit when you're not abusing the economy held together by bone glue and woodsplints.
3) ppl smallworld c-elves all the time and although being a criminal is cool, live fast and die hard is kinda personally unappealing for leadership when you went all-out at concealing yourself and ppl can ignore it
4) me like human tribals more, sorry not sorry
5) cant really speak much to this but generally speaking i dont think theres enough criminals around rn doing open crime as a whole to make the role exciting as far as justice goes, outside of justice being corrupt can be cool tho even if it makes ppl hate you when you hassle them for money
6) sometimes there are not enough minions to go around, and some character concepts like thieves targeting high-profile roles can make this..... weird. very reliant on minions and virtual clout that sometimes isnt always given ic. toeing around crimcode can be weird too if ppl are being disrespectful..... also playing a minion tends to be more "exciting"

[Halcyon]

1.   I love me some good byn times.   I've played two Sergeants and around ten Troopers.  Maybe now that I am over my celf fetish for a while, I'll again play a race who is allowed to become sergeant.

2, 4, 6, 7, I dont play these pc roles.

3.   I've found that players very very rarely join a celf group unless its a staff defined clan, or unless there is a bit of ooc collusion, or a staff member is playing in the clan.   Other than a byn sergeant, I've never been accepted for a sponsored role, so, no celf leaders for me. 

5, I had a bad experience or four with militia roles having a very slow tempo of play under most templars, noble leaders, or sponsored sgt or LT roles.  Most of these happened under other staff regimes, so I might try this again.  Maybe.   I'm no longer playing 10-14 hours a day, so "slice of life" rp is getting a little easier for me to enjoy.

[Jihelu]

7: This is less me playing leaders and running into issues and more 'issues I'd run into with MY leaders', people who were above me.

There's a few/lot of rules that seem to be unbreakable no matter what. We all know the age old 'haha Bynner just leave the city and don't tell anyone' shtick, but whenever I was an employee in a noble house there seems to be some rules that are just so pain in the ass you can't really work around them without silly behavior
Mostly in regards to sparring.
The gritty mercenaries won't take any amount to let so and so use their sparring hall for...reasons.
There are also other rules for things that could be handled IC that come down as OOC 'no and never' type responses I've come across.

[WithSprinkles]

Merchant Houses -


Glass ceiling:
My character got promoted to Overseer in the clan. There was delegation of tasks, and I had lots of great players that helped support and mentor him. I tried to roll with changes and give feedback as they came (the clan titles restructure, no more life sworn), but when I asked to be promoted above Overseer, I was told that my character's boss was "jealous", and that the only way that Maristen would get a promotion, would be for me to help his boss get one. Which... seems like an unfair goal. I agreed at the time, but it was deflating because of my character's own accomplishments, which were recognized. With another storyteller, I mentioned that I was already doing the job of the rank above mine, and had a room on the argosy, and was told that if it was up to them, that perk would never have been given to me, as it was above my current rank (the one I couldn't reach). Mind, I think I had already rebuilt the wagon that I had crashed, so I could have just moved there if I'd wanted. I was at first told that I was not allowed to give orders to our hunters, then I was informed that if I wanted that promotion, I had to learn to lead both branches. After I proved that I could lead the whole clan, I was refused the right to promote in our combat branch, and the storyteller in charge then refused to load the items.

Random Flies in the Ointment:
Later on, an argosy axle snapped, and our mekillots ran loose. I had no desire to run another "fixing a wagon" plot, and it felt incredibly arbitrary and stupid on top of the rest I had to deal with. While the argosy WAS having gourds tossed at it, we had planned for it as a backup retreat, so it shouldn't have been in combat, AND it was close to the road. There was no call for what happened, and it basically assisted in a near three clan wipe. I got offers to run our mission again from nobles in the city, but being new, and not combat oriented, I felt terrible that I had cost people their characters, lost my confidence, and didn't want to try again. So.. this may have been a big pile of miscommunication for the RPT, but this sort of devastatingly harsh consequence is not motivating to new leaders. It also hampered my abilities and desire to engage in a later plot that was seemingly made for us. Stacking debt on top of someone, and forcing unwanted interclan plots "because" isn't a great way to run things. I was getting unhappy noises from people around me, but I was as unable to deal with it as they were. When I threw my hands up and asked to store, I was offered the option to MARRY into the clan I didn't want to deal with anymore, and declined - especially when I mentioned that my character was 100% gay, and wasn't promised a compatible match.

Not Giving Proper Documentation:
I ended up having my character's boss nastily dress my character down for something that I could not POSSIBLY have known, either as a new player, OR as a blooded Kadian. When my character was given the ring, I specifically asked if there was any documentation that I needed to be privy to in order to adequately do what needed to be done, and I was told to just read what was on the boards. This resulted in my clan mate standing in front of my character and having to verbally defend mine, reminding them that they shouldn't be tearing into me like that because I was family. It was all very confusing and a bit weird. It crossed the line between OOC and IC, because I can't DO or not DO what I don't KNOW, and being randomly yelled at or punished for that is wearying. Eventually, my character was apologized to by his boss for the blow up, and the hole in his knowledge was filled, but that trust was fractured more than a little. It wasn't helped that I pretty much had to deal with everything by myself afterward, and was fed up with everyone perpetuating what I considered to be teeth-grinding nonsense.

Not having Our Time and Talents Valued:
Sometimes, our crafting work seemed like a chore to some staff members, and one openly insulted one of our crafter's hard work through echoes in the workshop, prompting me to defend her verbally to the open air. It happened to me, as well, when I worked hard and long on a tapestry, and as an invisible staff member gave it to me, they referred to it as "fancy toilet paper". They might have meant that as a joke, but it wiped the smile right off my face. I suggest more care in how this sort of thing is approached, because creative people care very deeply about how hard they work to make text creations, and go to the games that acknowledge that effort, and attribute it to them.

Consistency:
A vision for clans that staff members know about, and can share with leaders would be useful. Some overall rules would be useful as well. A person can't break the rules without knowing them, but it is VERY easy for a person to make rules up and enforce random ones when there are no easy to look up rules. In an OOC sense, players feel more comfortable and feel more trust with consistency and fairness. It may be alright for a Templar to decide to enforce a rule here and there, and make one up on the spot, but not staff, unless it is announced to EVERYONE. On that topic: My character had been told both that he was allowed to hang out at the Gaj, and that he was NOT allowed to hang out at the Gaj. By the time I was told that I could go to the Gaj again, my character was an Overseer, and it just felt strange. As a player, I was told that I had to itemize every sale that I made, and keep track. This helped me know when I had made 1 million in sales to the house, but later, a Storyteller told me that I didn't have to do it anymore and seemed surprised that I was doing it at all. It was amusing, but a little annoying, because doing that made my reports take an hour each, and I had dedicated notes for each client and sale. It helped with organization, but still.

Coming in Blind:
I felt very bad for a brand new PC that loaded into a certain clan after the previous leaders. She seemed cool, and I would have loved to have had her around, because she seemed grounded. However, she didn't have ANY idea of the political lay of the land, and it was BAD. I filled her in, and it seemed like she deflated. Worse, I felt the need to push the advantage and make her sign a no-competition agreement, because again, it had been BAD. She probably got that welcome from others as well, and I hope she didn't have to sign anything in blood. I didn't see her much again after that, but I would have been down for backing and helping her if she had stayed. She should have gotten a full brief of what she was walking in to, so she could have girded up properly. She might have had a different strategy on how to make her debut, and it wasn't fair.

Minor Merchant Houses:
I think warehouses should be automated like apartments on a first come, first serve basis. Templars should not have anything to do with handing out tokens, but should have a list of WHO has them for "tax" purposes, as well as who owns the warehouses. I'm not certain how the Trade Branch is run, but just like merchant houses, merchants overall doing WELL, should be on their minds so that the city is pulling in profit, AND they can line their pockets. This includes Major and Minor merchant house trade. KILLING merchants, and excessively driving away business should come with repercussions, especially to Trade Templars. It could be a way to vex Templars in that branch of the Ministry, but could be balanced by undermining military expeditions.

Resources:
After I got hold of both branches of the clan, I got rid of all the junk armor, and outfitted the hunters with proper gear. Then I asked Salarr to make head to toe custom armor for our hunters. Before I stored, I saw the chest and leg pieces done. I set the merchants loose on them to repair their gear so that they could get ranks in repair, and to keep the hunters looking pristine. Then I kicked the hunters out and told them to make me money, because they were no use to me sitting around. They were tasked to clear out the warehouse of unneeded shit, and sell things off. The house got a cut, I got a cut, and they started getting a cut. I also accepted crafts from interested hunters. We started going out for big game, led by one of our Kadian family members, and making exotic recipes. Our barracks were stuffed. The crafter barracks were full, the hunter barracks were full, and we had to give people lockers on the argosy for overflow. Everyone was active. We had to buy an extra waterbarrel, because we couldn't forage enough to keep up, and I was spending pocket money to keep everyone quenched. Our reward? Being told that we were doing it wrong, and that we were not meant to be out hunting like that. We were fully able to escort ourselves to and from Tuluk by then, and again, it was disheartening to be held back when we were rocking it, and gathering glow crystals with Salarr.



This is me stating that I did have some issues, and I am able to describe what they were. Clearly, these things didn't cause me to immediately leave, and I just feel that they are some of the deterrents to playing a leader, from my own experiences. They can be fixed. I feel like I made a "mark" in many ways, let other players do so and don't hold them back when they are killing it. Timotheo Fale told my character that he could do anything, and that is what I set out to do. I wanted to make a legend, or have him go down in flames. I'm able to speak about lots of positive things as well, but I've already made a very long post. I'm posting at all because after these past years, I still care and want this game to do well. I invite staff to look through my reports to verify anything I've said, but dear god, they are long and I was diligent. Apologies in advance.

[Jihelu]

I went and rechecked to make sure I wasn't crazy but:

When relooking at my requests from when I played a Noble I basically made it 3 weeks in or so, 3 'required weekly reports', and I don't think I even got a solid answer to most of my questions. Not even a 'find out IC'. I'd ask a question, get a response to something unrelated, I'd reply to their comment asking something trying to get more info or clarifying...and then nothing. Just silence.

It was very disheartening at the time and it's what led me to store. I felt like I was required to put in reports that weren't getting read and wasn't really having fun at the time.

[Lotion]

8. All of the above.

In order to play a leadership role you must store your current character and they are gone forever. That fucking sucks ass. If someone has a cool character they like playing why should they have to throw them away in order to play a merchant? Throwing away the entire future of a character you already enjoy playing for a chance to play a leader is disheartening. I think there is a nonzero amount of players who would be good leaders who do not apply because they would have to throw away a character they already find to be fulfilling. Players who can create a good concept for long term play may be self selecting to not be leaders because the application process is unintentionally punishing them. Allowing players to unstore the character they were previously playing would elicit more applicants and give a better pool of players to choose from when selecting someone to play a sponsored leader PC.

[Inks]

I just don't like ever storing a current pc to app anything. Really the only reason I don't app stuff. If I am not enjoying a PC I generally store it and start something new so I would have to have a really new pc to store for a role.


One day though!

[tiny rainbow]

What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

I'd like to start by saying that I have been enjoying the game lately, and for awhile now. If I had to stab at this list:

[..]

4. What is my purpose in life? Not really my style. The culture has been set up that we will ever only minimally interact and not break rules.

Things have definitely changed here from the times of the Soh etc, if you want a merchant with total freedom to roam the known and be welcomed, feared-respected in every area, Sun Runners is pretty much it (and not be a gicker that most cities hate and people complain on the forums about, but still the most versatile mundane species) (though teamwork and escorts is still encouraged, it's MUCH easier to organise). There's a lot of fun docs to it and you get to deal with PLOT EVENTS IN THE KNOWN on a higher level than most merchant characters since with a tribe there's no glass ceiling :D

[Nao]

Copied from the other thread because it fits better here.

One of the reasons leaders are hard to find is because no one seems to want to play them.  The last Byn sergeant rolecall got  1 applicant.  In the current Kadius/Kurac role Kurac got a couple but we got 0 Kadius.

We sure could use help from the experienced players to play leaders.  Not to put this on the playerbase, but that would certainly go a long way.   I get that they're often annoying to play, I don't particularly care for it myself.

So what we need to address is why is it no one wants to play them?  I think we should address that, and then there'll be leaders available.

Personally, I don't apply for roles much because I usually already have a PC that I like, with 30+ days played. I would apply for leaders more if we had the option to store and later unstore our current PCs. Restrict this to 'nobody', non-leader and not sponsored PCs and it shouldn't be too disruptive.

Another thing that might help is to keep applications open even when there is no current role call. Have a cap of two or three of each of the roles, and just let people apply whenever. It probably wouldn't work for templars and roles that are always filled, but for merchants and Byn sergeants? Having two or three active would help immensely with continuity, recruitment and temporary absences. The resulting conflict within the clan might even make the roles more interesting. Even if someone applies and the answer is "sorry, good app but we already have plenty of active leaders", you could shoot them a quick "still interested?" once a spot frees up.
(Edit: The option to send in unsolocited apps would help with the first problem - you can just write one after you die, and you don't need to either 1. store your current character or 2. pray that a role app just happens to be open when you die.)


Basically, keep posting rolecalls as usual, but also encourage unsolicited applications.

Also, please try to recruit from within the game if it's at all feasible. If there's a PC that seems to have decent playtimes and has been around for a  few months, you already know that they're active and can stick around. Even if they're not perfect, consider promoting them anyway and ask the player if they're interested.

[Barsook]

Basically, keep posting rolecalls as usual, but also encourage unsolicited applicatios.

That would help for sure as I think I only seen one and half unsolicited leadership role characters. If anyone remembers a short lived Merchant Trainie Doncroft Salarr, he was one. Kind of as it was the rank below Merchant, hence the half. The other one is well too recent to talk about but I know it was an un.

Also, please try to recruit from within the game if it's at all feasible. If there's a PC that seems to have decent playtimes and has been around for a  few months, you already know that they're active and can stick around. Even if they're not perfect, consider promoting them anyway and ask the player if they're interested.

Agreed 100%. I can name many times that was super needed in GMH's.

[Nao]

[deleted because I somehow managed to double post]

[Shaydee]

Honestly, there are lots of reasons mentioned above as to why I haven't/don't apply for leadership roles, but also I tend to prefer playing side characters? I don't think I would be any good as a leader and for those reasons as will as the following also I don't apply:

- I don't think I'm capable of coming up with plots constantly to keep things interesting, give me plots and I will do my best to support them, but actually come up with and drive them? That's beyond me, and kudos to everyone who can do it, I wish I was that cool.

- Honestly, when I start feeling like I *have* to log in and play, it makes me NOT want to log in and play. It stresses me out and makes Armageddon not as enjoyable for me. Again, kudos to anyone who is capable of doing it, ya'll rock.

- I'm in charge of so much stuff in RL, I play Armageddon to play, have fun, and the idea of having to drive plots and come up with things to keep others entertained and busy is stressful. It doesn't help that I'm a people pleaser, and so it would especially stress me out as I would constantly be worried I was doing a terrible job. I'm constantly already worried when I play tbh and have to take constant breaks for my mental health because I get too invested and get overwhelmed, which is bad and I know it, those are the times when I know I need to take a step back from Armageddon, which I feel is difficult in a leadership role because when I take breaks they are sudden and oftentimes I have no idea how long they will last. Ooh, there's another point in why I'd be unreliable in one of those roles.

- I like to work on my PCs growth over time, I really like the idea of mostly promoting through IC methods, though I know for certain roles that's just not really feasible. The idea of jumping into a sponsored role I feel as though I would need to already have a feel for my PC and that's harder for me to get into. My PCs feel like strangers when I first start out, yes I flesh them out as much I can, but a lot of their quirks and traits tend to come out through play based on the broader things I have already set into place for that PC.

Overall, I prefer playing my 'NPC'/nobody/supporting characters, maybe one day I will be confident enough to try for something more. Maybe way down the road.. heh.

I have so much respect for those of you that do play these roles, and everyone I've seen or played under always seemed to rock it from my point of view. I don't think I have ever played under a leadership role that I didn't enjoy playing under! 

[sucre]

I think a lot of issues stem for all clans from players going in with shiny character concepts, plot ideas, and having their leadership characters approved (with these concepts in mind, sometimes even cheered on by the accepting staff), to becoming unhappy and stagnating when the feats they initially laid out are then told by staff that they are unattainable, or having a staff switch and new staff not wanting to pursue their character's current or persistent plots/ideas/expansions, without being offered alternatives. I'm not suggesting anyone on staff right now has done this, but it's definitely something that has happened to me and others in the past.

It is jarring and jading and makes for an unpleasant experience.

[lairos]

Bringing part of this from the other thread -

We need to treat those who play our leadership roles better on an IC and OOC level. This, in my opinion, is one of the big reasons players don't actively want to play them as much, less applying and more turnover. There are a slew of other reasons of course. Lack of playtimes, maybe some poor experiences with staff, maybe even not feeling supported.

I played two near back to back sponsored roles that spanned close to 5 RL years between the two. In both cases, I tried to push them to the limit and tried to be the change and while I had some fun and really hope I made fun for others? Reading some posts about assumptions on how I played and many VASTLY inaccurate comments have made me lose much of any desire to want to play in such a role. Leadership roles dedicate -tons- of time between reporting, playing, coming up with plots and ideas to get people excited and while often thankless? Hearing people complain about it after, much like staff I assume, is difficult to swallow.

I applaud any new players who want to try these roles and I know it's not easy and the expectations are high, but we also need to try and do what we can to HELP them when they seem to be struggling, not just shun them.

This is absolutely MCB here and I do my fair share, but there is a separation and we all need to try and see it from the other lens and not jump to conclusions.

Now for the list -
1. Byn - I have seen the Byn become more of an escort group than anything else over the last couple of years. There really hasn't been much purpose to hire them because most of the Nak VS Tuluk was gone for awhile and has not ramped up. There are also a lack of "Hunts" going on that they used to be called for as well. GMH's often just get anything by a request and don't have to rely on Hunters to get really anything major. (Mek, Bahamet, Horror, ect...)
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another) - Treated as vending machines more often than not. Called on often, but if you are not able to get the item loaded quick enough, you get issues IC and it's not fun to play.
3. City elves - I can't speak to this since I don't really play them.
4. Desert elves - There are only two open and both are spread fairly far apart and have a lot of stigma tied between them because one is often viewed as being aligned with Allanak. Sun Runners - The only open delf tribe in the pah, and have a tent location that is beyond my understanding. Two Moons - Great in concept, but it feels like it just doesn't fit, nor does anyone really ever have a desire to utilize them for what they are.
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk) - While Tuluk was closed, I saw large upswings and downswings in the AOD, but with the changes that were made to structure, it just seemed lacking. Unless you have enough players and you're patrolling a lot, there often was a lot of stagnation. It's hard to be a leader in this role when it's rare to get people who want to join. It is one of the LAST FEW Life Oath clans in the game and most don't want to feel stuck. I would open up possible options of years of service until you get to officer if possible.
6. Noble Houses -  I can tell you burnout is real when you push hard to try to get things and either no one is around, no one can accept the jobs or you get a lot of roadblocks. It is a role that becomes very reliant on having other players in various positions to be able to drive anything.
7. Other - Having to store a current PC after you put time in even it's creation knowing you'll never be able to come back to it is hard. I would open up this more.

[Krath]

Bringing from the other Thread:
My gripe with Leadership roles are the reports, not that I am a great leader pc player or anything, but that is the reason I will not do it again. The amount of work that goes INTO writing the reports is a bit...The issue is the game world moves much faster than staff typically responds so you are stuck with two options: 1. Move on with your plans without staff sanction and repercussions because staff don't have time ooc to respond quickly or 2. Wait and hope your time to execute your plan doesn't pass because ooc or IC changes.

I don't believe there is really a need for Kadius PCs considering our downturn of players.

I think there is more of a need for Salarr than any of the others. Kurac not really since the camo gear nerf and spice rotting code.

How it usually goes:
Staff: Send in reports every two weeks
Leader pc: Sends in 2 reports before the 1st is answered.

That is all.

PS> Apping leaders, except nobles, I am not a fan of even though I have done it in the past. They are no where near capable enough skill wise..Yes code does matter.


List wise:
1. Byn - This is just an escort clan now, with the exception of the recent huge HRPT. The Byn are Mercenaries. MERCENARIES...Let them take any and all contracts. Need someone assassinated? Call the Byn. Need a Defiler killed, fucking right hire the byn. Want someone to kill and skin a mek for you? Hire the Byn. Let them do everything and be mercenaries. The Merchant Houses should be FORCED to rely on the byn for materials for ALL orders, not house hunters.
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another) - See above. Also..Purge the warehouses, make every item craftable, with the exception being auction pieces, and FORCE the merchants to use the Byn or Indy hunters to gather shells and materials as needed per order. No spot to store items. Order what you need, use what you need, discard or sell the rest. Also, remove the GMH/Garrison hunters and let there be Byn and Indy's.
3. City elves - I do not play City Elves
4. Desert elves - Sunrunners = Mudsex clan, Two Moons - I like in concept, I would consider them GMH-Lite
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk) - I will not play in Life Oath Clans, ever. To me, that is the underlying reason why these roles are hard to fill both at the recruit/Private level and Leadership level
6. Noble Houses - I tried it once with Robel Oash, and Sucked horribly at it. I do believe there is a place for the Noble Houses and they are warranted. The issue with this is, everyone typically flocks to the active noble house, leaving the others SOL.
7. Other - While I doubt I will ever app for a leadership role again, having to store a current PC, without the option to unstore when the sponsored role dies/stores/etc, Further ensures I will not be applying if I have a pc.

[MeTekillot]

I agree that the Byn should be a grimy crack team of murderers and mercenaries rather than the Neutral Good Escort Guild.

[Bogre]

1. Byn

This seems like a lot of work for pretty little reward. Whilst thematic, and you can be rough and tumble and gritty, you're playing cat herder to a lot of people. You're never really garnered respect for what you do (other than bringing some PCs to the table). What makes the role unique or allows this position to nab some kind of lasting impact? We can all kind of identify long lasting Byn Sarges, but did any of them leave a permanent mark?

Given all this, they tend to be very dependent on others to generate fun. Either the Imms making a contract, or other players with deep pockets.


2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)

A lot of problems with GMH stem their roles in the game world. They work when they have things to do - plots to push, people to pay off, influence to be snatched. A lot of times they feel relegated to vending machines, without the leverage to really do much. You see some really talented players and groups pull off some crazy stuff from time to time though, and that's when these roles really shine. They can have a lot of independence and flavor. Definitely roles that can shine but require a lot of work, luck, and supportive staff to excel.

3. City elves

Thematically crapped on, mechanically limited to a few pigeon-holed roles. The maximum level that these clans are reaching is 'conflict with templars or the Guild', and that's usually a dead end, or straight up causing non-fun for other people. The coded things city elves excel at also tend to be the most painful or problem points for -players-.


4. Desert elves

I love desert elves, despite not having played many recently. I think they have the chance to do a lot. I just don't feel the current open tribes are the most interesting or varied from an RP and concept standpoint.

5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)

One of my favorite roles, soldiering is always fun. A ton of awesomeness recently, on the most part, and I've already mentioned some of my complaints elsewhere. Haven't done Tuluki since the closure.

6. Noble Houses

Not much recent experience, but relies on a strong noble player to get going. I think the addition of the House cadres (Scorpions, Swabs, etc) give these really cool potential.

[X-D]

1. Byn
Byn I have done several times, and I expect to do so again. But I would not answer a role call for sarge Unless two conditions are met and one would have to be in the role call. That one is, the clan would have to be empty of PCs Other then maybe a new runner or two. Otherwise I expect to play a bynner that moves up the ranks. The second condition I will state it #7.

2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
A: I have never played a GMH family member, I will never play a GMH family member, I do not think they should exist, they should be businesses. Sure, you can have the almighty CEO but even he/she should be able to be toppled and people should move up to power from within. AND you should be able to get to VERY high levels inside these businesses. Because unlike other clans or even certain classes, The type of power wielded by a GMH is something that could be handled by a player. As long as the house was a business, IE, board etc.
B: I have played officers in merchant houses. I would again IF such things existed. Sadly, When a GMH has a successful branch, Staff has, 100% of the time shut it down. This has caused many issues including player loss and loss of interest in playing GMH. Staff should leave these things alone. It does not matter if every single player joins one part of one clan...It will balance itself out...Likely very quickly.

3. City elves
Never played a Celf leader, Did not know there was such a thing any more.

4. Desert elves
I have played a desert elf leader, It was great fun. Sadly that tribe does not exist even if they should, according to the docs of that tribe, have 2 more camps. The two open tribes do not appeal to me. I think it is a mistake to have closed the coded delf tribes. Going with #2, It should not matter if a tribe has 10 or 0 players, Just leave them open, Things will balance one way or another.

5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
I avoid these roles for app in, because They are always life sworn if you do and for reason #7.(edit) I agree with Williamson on muls/militia/legion.

6. Noble Houses
Simply have no interest in playing a noble, Never have so not much to say on them...OTHER...then the two houses I have seen in the past where even the noble seemed to be having fun. Being Tor and Winrothol. Because Those houses the nobles were actually expected to get hands dirty. Likely that matters on any noble.

7. Other
This is At least half the reason I do not app into leader roles. And other people have mentioned. You have to Store a PC and you cannot get it back.

Simple risk VS. reward. I have an established and still fun PC or a new PC with potential... I have to store it to app into an unknown amount of fun, potential etc. Simply not enough. Stick with current PC.

And the sad part is, it is such an easy fix. Allow people to unstore if the PC was stored for a PC leader role. What is the harm? If they have the leader for 3 months, No big deal. If they have it for 2 years it is unlikely they will want to go back to the stored PC anyway. And even if they do, mdesc/sdesc changes and move on.

[williamson]

One of the reasons leaders are hard to find is because no one seems to want to play them.  The last Byn sergeant rolecall got  1 applicant.  In the current Kadius/Kurac role Kurac got a couple but we got 0 Kadius.

We sure could use help from the experienced players to play leaders.  Not to put this on the playerbase, but that would certainly go a long way.   I get that they're often annoying to play, I don't particularly care for it myself.

So what we need to address is why is it no one wants to play them?  I think we should address that, and then there'll be leaders available.

I think Nao gives a really good answer. It's rare that I find the role call I want when I'm in between characters. I usually have to store a character that I like and wish I could play again later. Having a continuous open call for some roles makes a lot of sense to me.

What might be useful is to break down what the issues are on a per clan leadership role.  Meaning, the Byn has different issues than Kadius who has different than city elf tribes, and so on.

I can't speak to a lot of it as I don't play leaders because I'm on staff.  So what are the issues making people not want to play leadership roles in the following:

1. Byn
2. GMH's (or are they each different enough from one another)
3. City elves
4. Desert elves
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk)
6. Noble Houses
7. Other

Byn:  I never play in the Byn and have never applied for a Byn Sergeant. I have no plans to do so in the future. Why don't I want to play in this clan? As an external observer, the Byn seems to have turned into a wagon escort service instead of a mercenary company. IMO, a Byn sergeant should be able to take any profitable job that they want for whoever they want. Isn't that what a mercenary does? A Byn sergeant and their squad should be able to hunt, greb, escort, smuggle, assassinate, or raid for their current employer. Even if this happened, I still would rather start at the bottom and work my way to the top. When you start as a sergeant, there's no room for you to advance.

GMHs:  I've played a family member or leader in every GMH (Kurac, Kohmar, Kadius, and Nenyuk). Kohmar got wiped out, Nenyuk got automated, and the others become very bogged down with bureaucracy. One of my favorite parts of the game is the economy and using wealth as a tool for power. Despite this, I have no plans to app for a GMH now or in the future. Why is this? The current system is too cumbersome and bureaucratic. The glass ceiling means that you can't achieve what you could in the past. If I made one now, at best, they'd be smaller versions of previous characters. However, the biggest problem with the GMHs for me is that now I can make a merchant and try to build my own minor merchant house. Why repeat an old character in an old clan, when I can attempt to build my own with my own rules, my own wares, and my own employees? These clans are so old that they've become stale to me as a player. It's almost like they've become a stepping stone to prove yourself so you can play a templar or noble in the future.

City Elves:  I haven't played a city elf in over 15 years. I have no interest in playing one in the future. Why? IMO, they are crippled by the code (poor strength, no means to travel, can't pull a bow) and they are handicapped by the racial documentation (can't join most clans, everyone dislikes you). Why play a city elf crafter when you can play a human crafter who can join clans, obtain access to more recipes, and have the strength to lift a log? Not sure that many PC city elf leaders really exist.

Desert Elves: I use to play many desert elves when they were like tribal humans. When they were changed to clanned only, I quit playing them. I have no plans to play in the current open tribes. If the Blackwing ever reopens and are allowed to roam as far as they did in the past, I'd give them a try.

Militia: I played in the Allanaki militia about five characters back. I advanced to Corporal. However, I have no plans to app for a Sergeant role call. The main reason is I think it's more fun to start at the bottom and work your way up the ladder. I suggest allowing Sergeant role calls to be filled with special apps for muls who are trusted and trained. It'd be another interesting way to increase the spice demand in that city and make militia sergeants something to be feared.

Noble Houses:  It seems to me that it's pretty easy to get people to make nobles and templars. What seems hard to get are aides for nobles. There are usually three nobles and two templars in Allanak. I assume there are a pair of nobles and templars in Tuluk. That's 9 PCs who need to hire aides. Most aides need to be non-magick, human citizens. It seems to be hard to gather that many to fill all these support roles. Perhaps allow more bastards, special app muls, gemmed humans, or dwarves to fill these roles so they can actually be filled?

Other:   To reiterate, I think allowing players the option to unstore their previous characters when their accepted leadership role ends might increase the number of applicants.

[Jihelu]

Williamson I think, technically, nobles CAN hire dwarves?

I don't think when I was playing my Oashi there was ever documents that said you couldn't, and in fact I think in my request for an aide I even mentioned dwarves could apply if they were Allanaki citizens, but there may be stuff in other house docs that suggest against it.

Other than that everything else you wrote resonates.

[X-D]

Interesting, Far as Borsail is concerned, they always say Human or HG, Same for Fale. Oash always says Human citizen on gemmed at least. I have never paid attention otherwise. Only Tor, to my knowledge hires or did hire dwarves...And even then only as reds, never silvers. As to the north, Winrothol hired Humans, Dwarves and half-giants but I never saw anything but humans in any of the other noble houses.

Borsail and Winrothol of course also had Muls.

[Derain]

1. Byn- I've had 4 of these in the past years and usually there is at least some common interest people joining and being able to do things, the most recent try nobody responded to my GDB RPT posts and nobody hired us for ANYTHING. Get told there is a VNPC agreement between the Byn and a noble house to run monthly missions and no way to pay the troopers for it.(stupid this should be negotiated IC) the game world just felt dead this time around and I'll never App another Byn Sergeant..
My opinion also is the Byn Sergeants should be app'd in with higher base offense and defense especially if the clan is dead.
2. GMH's - Love these roles and my last one I tried to include EVERYONE. I used to hand out bonuses to the Byn for good escorts in the form of goods from my house, I had an insane amount of money and I tossed new templars 10k at a time used my coin to outbid a noble at an auction through a noble I was aligned with just because I hated Borsail..   I was even hiring seedy folks to win a festival contest along with smuggling spice to have sold. I had my hands in assassinations paid for by me and won a few art auctions just because I had extra coin and gifted the art to nobles to gain favor.  This role is often used as a vending machine, if I can't get the stuff fast? Fuck them, you should be a political monster.
3. City elves - I hate playing these
4. Desert elves- No interested in the two moons after I worked hard on my GMH to work out a water and a tent deal which felt like staff didn't even read among other deals and none of it was ever allowed to happen.
5. Militia roles (both Allanak and Tuluk) - Done both of these and they should be apped in with higher skills and expected to be held to a higher level BUT this role actually has a veterans training area which I won't go into here to give them a chance to skill up even if the clan is dead.. (thank goodness) Sadly it's almost impossible to detect sneakies so the law enforcement side of things is laughable.
6. Noble Houses- I had a horrible experience on my Oash and all of it stemmed from really bad communication from a staffer who didn't end up staying on staff- I think this could be fun.
7. Other- From the outside looking in? the CW hasn't been successful since Amon-ma.

8. Oh and I forgot after putting in tons of work for my warehouse on Polain I got my key stolen and a Templar offering it back for way too much money even though I was already constantly paying him ruined the role for me and I kinda went to auto-pilot and would NEVER try the MMH system again personally.

[sucre]

8. All of the above.

In order to play a leadership role you must store your current character and they are gone forever. That fucking sucks ass. If someone has a cool character they like playing why should they have to throw them away in order to play a merchant? Throwing away the entire future of a character you already enjoy playing for a chance to play a leader is disheartening. I think there is a nonzero amount of players who would be good leaders who do not apply because they would have to throw away a character they already find to be fulfilling. Players who can create a good concept for long term play may be self selecting to not be leaders because the application process is unintentionally punishing them. Allowing players to unstore the character they were previously playing would elicit more applicants and give a better pool of players to choose from when selecting someone to play a sponsored leader PC.

I agree. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. If it does, great, if it doesn't, being able to unstore your PC you stored for the role seems an okay compromise. Maybe we would even have more bombastic, risk-taking leaders, who weren't timid about their role if they knew they could have the PC they stored for the role back. It might drum up interest and plots.