The Grind: A compromise solution

[Sephiroto]

I can see it now. Staff implements a way to skill up faster. 12 months later some players say: "It should be harder to skill up. All my skills are master and now I have nothing to do!"

As someone who just came back to the game, skilling up feels a bit too easy in some areas and the same as usual in others. I'm not sure how I feel about becoming a master <crafting_skill> at 2-3 days played just trying to get by. And the branching & progression of some combat skills feels way too fast.

Rather than trying to solve a problem, I'd like to see more discussion about whether this problem is a problem that really needs to be fixed and why it should be fixed. Particularly, what classification of skills grind too slow, and why? Also, why does having low skills suck? And why would veterans be dying and starting over so frequently that they are hampered by noobish skills frequently enough for it to be a bother?

[Malken]

As someone who just came back to the game

Players Connected (7:30 pm EST):
31 (24 minutes ago)

Average Connected:
22 (last 30 days) ▼4%

I'm just going to give you a hint on why people are trying to get players back to the game. The time it takes to skill up and the often idiocy of the things you must do in order to skill up is in the top 3 reasons as to why veterans left the game in that recent thread.

[Night Queen]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

And if a character is basically a mall cop they wield the awesome power of AUTHORITY and you will barely ever need to use those combat skills anyway, because you already are so incredibly outclassing anyone you want to hit with that. Your job is to bully people and make lots of drama for everyone, not be rambo!

[Citizen Puddi]

at what point was it suggested that one could idle up to max or some crazy-high skill level or some such?

Looking here and in Discord I get the feeling that the potential big picture of the proposal is getting glossed over entirely. 

[creeper386]

I also agree I'm not sure it's a problem. I've said it before and same as Sephiroto said, some skills gain up ridiculously fast.

Like, max most of your non combat skills in under ten days plays.

How fast do you want skills to be gained?

Now I'll admit weapons skills go up very slowly. But they do for everyone. The only time I see it as a problem is when skills are branched behind weapon skills.

I've seen characters get involved in plots from the get go without skills. What is the grind limiting?

[Citizen Puddi]

I also agree I'm not sure it's a problem. I've said it before and same as Sephiroto said, some skills gain up ridiculously fast.

Like, max most of your non combat skills in under ten days plays.

Ten days played-- if you know what you're doing.

idk about you folks, but I was playing Arm for like three years before someone wound up telling me that my approach to skilling up was actual hot garbage.

On top of that, ten days played.

That's 240 hours.

If a casual player can only muster around 3~4 hours per session and can manage this faithfully every single day, that's over two months RL time-- and let's not pretend that some skills are perhaps a little too likely to fail disastrously (read: you'll have to start all over) if used in any serious manner until they're either at or around maxed out.

In any other setting or game, doubly so for one with permadeath, that's a an actual bananas crazy ludicrous amount of time, especially considering that you can get sent right back to the start if you just get unlucky or mess up somehow.

How fast do you want skills to be gained?

Not sure about that exactly yet, but maaaaybe a little quicker than a month to just start getting somewhat reliable and useful as far as the code's concerned.

But that's just me, personally. I'd imagine some sort of consensus should be sought.

I've seen characters get involved in plots from the get go without skills. What is the grind limiting?

idk man, as someone that's gotten involved into pretty heavy plots still decked out in starter shop gear, I can tell you.

Stuff like that is very much a function of just being in the right place at the right time without a whole lot of rhyme or reason.

Kudos to anyone that can manage to do that with any consistency, but my anecdotal experiences have pointed towards having to be able to actually do stuff to get involved with much of anything.

[Fawcett]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

Cities have military academies. Training halls. Drills. Not to mention that the soldiers in them supposedly go out on patrol on an often basis to fight spiders, raiders, and other bad things - even if they aren't academy trained. This should be reflected IG, but can be hard due to population issues.

Tribals hunt raptors, sure, but that doesn't mean they should normally be anywhere near better then a soldier who trained under officers who trained in academies, fights in wars, and trains martial techniques every day. This is like saying that the Gauls were actually more skilled then the Romans in battle simply because they were tribalistic.

The above is why I heavily support Gruffalo's stance on giving most clans (within reason) a training NPC. Hell, maybe even being able to pay for use of a public-ish training NPC for independents? They allow you to use the current skill system in a more time effective way.. as is seen already and well received in certain clans. Expand the good stuff! 

[Halaster]

I'm going to throw in my opinion that offline skills gains would solve relatively few of the grind problems, while creating a couple new issues. First of all, they encourage people who want to avoid everyone until they're skilled up enough to engage them to avoid playing in the early game. Second and much more importantly they don't help new players hardly at all.. I think either a tinkered and simplified "trade max for current" skill system, or a specialized "grindless" class would be helpful /both/ to old and new players alike. Offline skill gains provide very little benefit to new players. In fact, I imagine most of the new players that get frustrated with repeatedly failing their basic skills would be gone before any sort of offline skill gain even kicked in.

Yeah, an offline skill system doesn't solve for new players.  It specifically solves for helping players who don't have a lot of time to play.  It represents them gaining a bit of skill while they're not online. 

[Halaster]

I'm commenting as just a player discussing it, not really promising anything from a staff perspective.

Over the years starting skills have been raised to help people start out at little bit more ahead.  Heavy combat roles of today are pretty dang impressive compared to warriors from ages past.  I'm personally a fan of moderate to long grind because it makes those who go through the grind stand out.  If it's really easy for everyone to skill up fast, then everyone becomes skilled, and then they're all the same.  And there's not much special about a highly skilled person.  A slower curve means those who make it to the top are special.  I realize I'm discounting the negatives that go along with the grind, and I totally acknowledge them.  It's just that I personally think the benefits of a slower progression outweigh the benefits of a faster one.

That said, it's certainly feasible that some balancing in skill progression might be in order.  I know some go up super fast, some not so much and maybe they need looked at.

In my opinion what's more important is that people are able to "do things" within a reasonable time frame as opposed to "maxing out".  You don't need to be a max combat character to hunt carru, you just need to be good enough to hunt carru (if that's your goal).  Having a pimped out badass character is certainly fun, but I think it's the journey that's the most rewarding. 

You know.. "the friends you make a long the way!"

edit:  I want to add that me saying all this doesn't mean there won't be changes.  We've seen the feedback thread and continue to collate the answers and discuss options.

[Dune Bunny]

I think that perhaps tying skill gains to age could really help, and be done in a passive way.

For every year of age above X to start, a certain batch of skills related to your class/sub will be Y% higher than someone starting at X age.

For every year in game, skills have a chance to improve a certain amount as a means of reflecting upon experience of the player during their offline lives.

I'm sure that can be expanded on in many ways, but it sets a tone of a person having experience during downtime as improving in things, without shooting skills right up to max.

[Night Queen]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

Cities have military academies. Training halls. Drills. Not to mention that the soldiers in them supposedly go out on patrol on an often basis to fight spiders, raiders, and other bad things - even if they aren't academy trained. This should be reflected IG, but can be hard due to population issues.

Tribals hunt raptors, sure, but that doesn't mean they should normally be anywhere near better then a soldier who trained ...

Training is not real, real is real - Any NPCs used for "training" that can't kill the character should definitely be removed Roman/Academy military tactics don't apply to barely any fights that happen in Armageddon, and the big-scale wars where it does, formations and large-scale tactics are more a thing for the NPCs to emote about - on an individual level a tribal that lives by the sword to survive every day is definitely going to be a lot more bitey than mister macho soldier that is good at following orders but whose daily life is shouting to the others to chase a pickpocket

[Citizen Puddi]

Training is not real, real is real - Any NPCs used for "training" that can't kill the character should definitely be removed

That training and sparring without trying to murder your partner is not really REALLY helpful as far as knowing how to fight is incredibly not true, historically and practically speaking at least.

Fencing masters like Johannes Liechtenauer or Fiore de'i Liberi would not have had much of a career at all if they had to present a lethal threat to their students in order for them to get good.

I mean if we really get into it, if I had to place a bet on a tribal whos combat experience is probably mostly hunting and stabbing gortoks and carru with a spear vs. a trained militiaman that knows a thing or two about combat physics and leverage, my bet's on the militiaman every single time.

[Night Queen]

It doesn't make for a very interesting story or game if people can just sit around eating cheese to victory

[Citizen Puddi]

It doesn't make for a very interesting story or game if people can just sit around eating cheese to victory

Not sure where exactly that was proposed, but sure.

I'd argue that digging into boring "meta" skill-raising stuff for the several hundredth time doesn't make for a very interesting story or game either.

[Gentleboy]

I feel like I'm one of the only people to say this, but I enjoy the grind.

Those who put in time should be rewarded. I like seeing my characters grow and nurturing them.

[Citizen Puddi]

I feel like I'm one of the only people to say this, but I enjoy the grind.

Those who put in time should be rewarded. I like seeing my characters grow and nurturing them.

Which is great!

I don't think any of the ideas in this thread so far would diminish any returns from those that want a grind.

It's mostly all about taking it a little easier on folks that don't like it even a little bit or don't have the free time to do all the things.

[Night Queen]

There's just no way to do it without ruining the "realism" of the world for everyone else though, once you turn it from a virtual world to a cheese-eating simulator, it just changes the type of game entirely - there's lots of MUDs/MUSHes that go along this path of giving everything away easy, and they just become very boring games, this game is very unique in atmosphere and culture, if you try others you'll see just how boring they can get, seriously, I dare you, I'm not naming names but most are reaaaaally boring.

[The Gruffalo]

Once you reach a certain point, there is a plateau where it may well be more ideal to "wilderness train", but it gets you to an extremely reasonable level of competency

You're also making a false squavalence. House guards and militia soldiers are not mall cops. They're people trained by powerful institutions to fight, protect and serve them, in a cutthroat, brutal, dystopic city-state, and often patrol the very wastes your tribals inhabit.

The NPCs are limited but are an extremely reasonable solution to the longstanding problem of virtual resources and population not matching player experience. I bet you'd change your tune if a group of tribal hunters were made available to train with-- something I wouldn't be against.

Again, you'll plateau against them, and wilderness based PCs ultimately have the edge. It seems to me like you are afraid that PCs aren't taking risks against deadly NPCs to get their gains- well, that's every combat clan with a decent population.

[Citizen Puddi]

There's just no way to do it without ruining the "realism" of the world for everyone else though, once you turn it from a virtual world to a cheese-eating simulator, it just changes the type of game entirely - there's lots of MUDs/MUSHes that go along this path of giving everything away easy, and they just become very boring games, this game is very unique in atmosphere and culture, if you try others you'll see just how boring they can get, seriously, I dare you, I'm not naming names but most are reaaaaally boring.

I understand that you don't like the ideas presented, as unlikely as they are to be implemented, but we're just gonna have to agree to disagree if you keep ignoring the bits that might do well to prevent this "cheese-eating simulator" scenario you've cooked up and comparing muds/mushes, that are decidedly nothing at all like Armageddon in pretty much every other aspect, to Armageddon.

The fact is there is a very not insignificant portion of the playerbase that has left due to the time requirements and the grind overall, and I'd be willing to put money on the idea of spending months to build up a character only to potentially lose it and having to start back from zero again is a big turnoff for potential newcomers on top of that.

I at least know everyone I've tried to introduce to the game couldn't get over that hump.

More players would make for a more exciting game on the whole, even if a few of them don't have the time or inclination to rise and grind.

[Patuk]

Not the most popular opinion, but I'll state it: I don't mind how long the grind takes for most skills. Could it be faster? I guess. Is it currently a problem? Not really. You can get even survival classes to a point where they can at least survive PvE scenarios pretty well, ambush creatures like spiders or ridiculous scripts like dujat excepted. No problem.

No, my issue is with the form the grind takes. Anyone who's tried getting a weapon skill above advanced knows it is a thankless and ridiculous effort to actually do so; it is unintuitive, it breaks immersion, and it heavily rewards edge case wilderness scenarios over people who might want to join mercenary or military clans for training. Fight a master warrior? Dumb, useless, waste of time. Go into the canyons of waste to accidentally tumble into a dark hole and fight things in the dark? Genius, get master weapon skills, this man is a god of war.

So, that. The grind's length, I take no issue with, but how ridiculous things get WRT the means needed to raise weapon skills is really old to me.

[Night Queen]

You're also making a false squavalence.

I bet you'd change your tune if a group of tribal hunters were made available to train with

No, they shouldn't exist for anyone, this isn't a factional thing really, just poking fun at the whole idea that what is essentially a group of enthusiastic walts are somehow equivalent to peoples who kill a giant monster with a wooden spear because they are hungry in the morning

[Lotion]

For a combat character facing strife and becoming a badass is an important part of the character's story imo.  Eliminating or greatly reducing grinding for crafting skills, some manipulation skills, some perception skills, and psionic skills sounds great, but I think if you want to be good at fighting quicker you should just pick enforcer, fighter, raider, or learn how to make a proper twinking regimen that includes good roleplay.

[Inks]

I like the grind the way it is, I like the way it rewards effort and I like the endorphins I feel when a skill finally ticks up a level. I like it a lot. Please don't change it ever.

[CodeMaster]

This would probably be a big coding project, but it would be cool if the 'base' level of skills were way easier to get up off the ground (to reduce the grind).  But to counteract that, you could add a growing penalty for not using a skill for a long time.  An RL day or two could be all that's needed to shake off the rust.

> skills
piercing weapons (master, neglected)  <-- a penalty
slashing weapons (advanced, familiar)  <-- a bonus, maybe?

'Rinth rats would always be sharp when it comes to stealth, whereas a commoner might have to practice up before a big heist.  Bynners would always be better than people who didn't spar daily.

[Greve]

I don't really believe in stuff like gain commands and ready-made skilled characters. I don't think that can ever be an ideal solution to the issue. Most of the skills that are problematic can be made less so with changes to the way they increase. If you take a normal everyday skill like sneak/hide or forage or any crafting skill that isn't gated behind material scarcity, anyone playing a character that uses these with any real regularity can generally max them out (or at least raise them to a satisfyingly useful level) in 3-4 days of playtime, and that timeframe seems very reasonable. The only real problem is with the combat skills.

Two changes that would eliminate nearly all issues with the grind:

1) Sparring NPCs in military clans. With player numbers what they are, this has simply become necessary. In order for a game of this scope to function at all, you cannot gate combat training exclusively behind PC-to-PC interaction, and characters in military clans are usually prohibited from dicking around alone in the wilderness to hack away at animals and bandits. Sparring NPCs would solve so many problems, and it's not some kind of unexplored concept that could introduce a bunch of new issues--other RPIs have done this before and it worked out great, with a few simple rules like "don't ignore other players in the room so you can spar the NPC" and "don't fucking backstab him." This also makes these clans way more attractive. A sparring NPC doesn't need to take you to <master> but it should provide the kind of training that at least matches what you can get from just hunting medium-risk animals or getting scummy in the 'rinth.

2) The biggest flaw in this game's code is the way weapon skillgains are tied exclusively to dodge. I don't understand why this needs to be the case. For one thing, it's just not realistic. Like it's simply not the way martial training works in reality. It also puts this ridiculous and artificial roadblock in the way of training, because opponents will stop dodging you long before they can really be considered so far beneath you that you shouldn't get anything out of fighting them. I've had a 5-day character with apprentice in weapons that couldn't get a miss sparring an opponent who went on to win the fucking Luir's combat tournament the same month. I couldn't land a single hit on him, but he parried and blocked 100% of my attacks, so in the eyes of the code, he was not good enough for me to learn anything. Some of the most dangerous animals in the game could barely even get you to journeyman skill because they just don't dodge. Paradoxically, most of the animals that actually can dodge well enough that you might reach a reasonable level of skill are not dangerous at all. This is an ancient relic of 1990s code that makes no sense whatsoever and creates huge problems for no good reason, and until this one thing is changed, there's no point even discussing other solutions because it'll stand in the way of all of them.

Many of the dangerous animals need a bump to their defense. If you look at something like a tembo or a drov beetle, these can be seriously dangerous even to fairly skilled fighters, but they can't dodge for shit even at apprentice weapon skills. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the offensive and defensive capabilities of animals. After a month of training, I'm still pretty leery about facing a braxat, but I know for sure that it has basically 0% chance to dodge my attacks. Same goes for almost any wildlife, really. They're jam-packed with offense and damage but don't seem to have more defense than a gortok. I remember this being very different back in the day, and not just with regards to the notorious stilt lizards. Something changed. I recall raising weapon skills to advanced on my warriors and rangers off of animals that can no longer dodge me at apprentice. Do the new combat classes start with insanely high offense or something?

At the end of the day, the issue with the grind is that so much of your time is wasted. It's wasted standing alone in the sparring hall day after day, or it's wasted hunting for hours at a time without learning anything whatsoever. Whenever you actually can get effective training, your skills go up just fine. The problem is that effective training is this bizarre unicorn you hope to find one day, and until you do, most of your time is pissed away on a futile attempt to eke out a little bit of progress. This is why a one-time skill bump is no solution, nor do offline gains change the fact that there's little feeling of progression when actually playing the game. It feels like shit to spend so much time on something you know was pointless. The grind is an important part of Armageddon's gameplay, but that only works when you're actually getting something out of it. Praying that a clanmate shows up for training today is not a grind, it's just a waste of time.