The Grind: A compromise solution

[Narf]

I started this thread in response to a reoccurring complaint that tends to come up again and again. That is that a certain percentage of the playerbase is either sick of, never liked, or can't afford the time to dedicate to skilling up their characters. There were a number of reasons stated for this, whether it be kids, jobs, just getting sick of it over the years, or getting used to games that have a much higher reward:time spent ratio, but they all feed into the same thing. Unfortunately, the most obvious solution to shorten the grind is fairly contentious for a few reasons. On the one hand a certain percentage of the playerbase genuinely enjoys the grind. The skill grind also serves a purpose in the game of ensuring that characters have diverse levels of abilities rather than having everyone running around with capped characters needing little to no help from others for either training or to accomplish their given task. Further, even if everyone was on the same page with regards to reducing grind-time (you're going to be really sick of reading the word "grind" by the time you're done reading this), the degree to which it would be reduced would still be contentious as everyone has different ideas and preferences for how much to leave remaining, as well as different amounts of time available to dedicate to the game.

So that's the dilemma as best as I can articulate it. Here's a potential solution that sidesteps a lot of the issues with reducing grind:

Create a new class for each of the iconic sorts of characters: Criminal, Merchant, Fighter, Hunter.

These classes would be /additional/ options above and beyond the existing classes, and each class would begin with all skills on their list at useful levels. Usefulness would likely depend on the individual skill, but all the skills on their list should be able to do their intended job out of the gate, no grinding needed. In exchange for this boon, all of these classes would have lower caps on their skills, effectively reducing their potential in comparison with the existing classes.

Grind-less characters could be used  by old and new players alike. For older players that are sick of the grind and just want to drop a ready-made character into a role, and dedicate themselves solely to that role this would ensure they could do that out of the gate. For new players who wanted to explore the world and didn't want to figure out the sometimes difficult or downright arcane process of practicing skills, they could be ensured a reasonably competent character who can immediately start exploring their own little section of the game world without immediately dieing or getting frustrated by repeated failures at whatever their trying to do. Hunters wouldn't fall off their mounts in the middle of a fight and die on their ass, crafters wouldn't waste the materials that they had to spend the last three days figuring out how to obtain (new players often have trouble finding crafting materials), they wouldn't get caught and thrown in jail on their very first (and also second, third and fourth) attempt to pick the pocket of someone. New players need to be able to jump in and get their feet wet without being expected to 'practice skills' for their first few days played. In fact, if a new player has failed at most everything they've tried to do in the first couple hours of gameplay, well they probably aren't going to stick around long.

[najdorf]

Do not add new classes, use current ones.
Introduce a command like "gain" to be used only within first 3 hours of gameplay, like reroll
It reduces a player's cap by X amount, and adds that to skill level.

command gain:
gain hunt 10
gain piercing weapons 20
gain shield use 10
gain armormaking 30
etc.

If your hunt cap is 80, and starting at 20. After using gain hunt 10
Your skill will go up to 30 and cap reduced to 70.
Cannot be rerolled or taken back, new cap is permanent.

[Narf]

Do not add new classes, use current ones.
Introduce a command like "gain" to be used only within first 3 hours of gameplay, like reroll
It reduces a player's cap by X amount, and adds that to skill level.

command gain:
gain hunt 10
gain piercing weapons 20
gain shield use 10
gain armormaking 30
etc.

If your hunt cap is 80, and starting at 20. After using gain hunt 10
Your skill will go up to 30 and cap reduced to 70.
Cannot be rerolled or taken back, new cap is permanent.

Hmmm, I see the advantages of this, but could we really expect a new player to use this to their own satisfaction?

[MeTekillot]

Previously, this was partially addressed with the karma skill bump system. I believe it fell by the wayside after the new (relatively) 3 tier system was implemented.

this is a good idea. I had a similar idea, sans the cap on skills; having cycling semi-sponsored roles of established minions in clans such as veterans of the Byn and various Noble fighting forces, or crafters born into the various merchant houses, etc etc. Instead of trading coded potential, players in these roles would have an understanding that their character is meant to live and die in the clan. In exchange for that dedication, they get skills of a typical well trained 5 or 10 day character.

I apologize if it seems like I'm hijacking your idea with mine. We're definitely in agreement of how oppressive the grind can be

[Iiyola]

Yes please!

Anything to get rid of The Grind. Its a waste of RL time which could be filled with RP instead.

[Citizen Puddi]

Personally I'm a fan of the EVE Online system of passive offline gains— and I think something like that could be faniggled into working well within Arm in a variety of different ways.

The only real argument I've seen to such is, "well yea but what if someone just sets their passive gains up and came in as a skilled up nobody" but like who cares? That's hardly any different than someone skilling up solo in the wastes.

Lots of variables are already set up for tweaking. Could set learn rate by Wis, max passive learn caps for relevant skills by clan, could require a certain number of hours played by week for it to even function, karma options, diminishing returns, there's just a big dumptruck of stuff to work with to keep things balanced.

That way people who dig their grind can grind away and git gud faster than those that aren't into it, and people who prefer to focus all of their energy on roleplay can do so without the pressure of falling behind skill-wise getting in the way so much.

And it just makes sense.

My PC is still doing stuff when I'm not logged in.

[Fawcett]

I do wish there was 'holy shit' moments seen in most western movies, where a random person (the protagonist) turns up to town and everyone sneers at him then turns out to be a total unassuming badass. Pretty much unseen in arm, since every new person is.. well, a new person when it comes to skills.

I'm in full support of cutting out grind in some passive/offline way, like the ones mentioned above. Maybe RP points can be put into boosting skills? One thing I personally wouldn't like to see is people skipping from apprentice to master in a short amount of time with no downside or cost. Then everyone would be the protagonist.

[Malken]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

[X-D]

Only option I like is Najdorf's.

Though I would change the numbers as lowering a cap by 10 is bigger then raising a start by 10.

I would have gain1 and gain2.

Gain 1 would raise the starting skills by 10 while lowering the caps by 5, gain2 would raise starting skills by 20-25 and lower cap by 15. I would only allow the gain2 to players with at least 1 karma though. or maybe special app so that the player can demonstrate to the staff that they REALLY do want this. Also, either can only be used once and no undo.

Sorry, no gaining skills offline. There is a huge difference in fact, if you solo skill gain in the wilderness you might still have to interact with PCs and definitely the game world, which means risks. Unless you want to introduce some sort of % that something bad happens to your PC while you are offline skill gaining, I am quite against that.

As to the karma skill gains it was/is two little to bother with waiting on staff to do. a small gain to 1-2 skills...meh, the gain you start with can be done in a couple days played anyway. Likely you will wait 15 days for approvel.

(edit) Hell, I would not be against a gain3 option for the really hardcore I hate grind folks. Cuts all skills in half (cept for like contact) And including branched And maxes them.

[Citizen Puddi]

Sorry, no gaining skills offline. There is a huge difference in fact, if you solo skill gain in the wilderness you might still have to interact with PCs and definitely the game world, which means risks. Unless you want to introduce some sort of % that something bad happens to your PC while you are offline skill gaining, I am quite against that.

Weekly playtime requirements for the system to even function for your char kinda covers for that, no?

[creeper386]

As someone who likes the grind, I think the option for smaller sponsored roles the only one that really looks appealing to me.

But I wouldn't want it exclusively for clans..

Really I think the skill bump system should be looked over and hopefully automated. And I wouldn't want to limit it to one skill per karma point personally. Two or three depending on what the bump amounts are. I think I'd rather upwards of 9 skill bumps available at a smaller amount though for more options.

Or maybe a system like was kicked around during the mundane vs magicker debate where playtime on your character gives your "points" to spend on the next. IDK.

Offline skill increases. Hard no from me.

I guess the "gain" thing isn't much different. But I'd rather it somehow be connected to actual effort still put into the game.

[Night Queen]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

Reaaaaally? We could add some microtransactions too to fund advertising if we're gonna go down this path?

I mean...

I think this would probably kill the game, I've seen people complaining about it being quiet, while plot churns and storms around them, because they just don't log on much themselves - which is kinda sad. There's actually been a lot going on but these people just logged in at the wrong time.

A lot of it's about timing, and a lot of RP only happens by those special little chance encounters and coincidences, some of which wouldn't happen if people didn't have as much reason to go explore and do stuff. It'd just be dead air, people logging on now and then to update their skills, then heading to a tavern occasionally. I've seen MUDs that are not RP-focused that are like that, and they're very boring - great for casually doing stuff, sure! But completely bland, very little that goes on... I don't think most people would like the end result of going down that path. There's already a lot of MUDs that have done stuff like this and they are very dreary places... If Armageddon became just another MUSH it would be kind of a cultural vandalism when there's nothing really like it left. It's more a simulation of a real world than a soap opera, kinda.

[Malken]

Reaaaaally? We could add some microtransactions too to fund advertising if we're gonna go down this path?

Please do! With the amount of $$$ I spend on MMOs microtransactions, it could pay for five full-time Armageddon staffers.

[Night Queen]

This is also something other MUDs have done, though - And from the quality of those other places I got the impression it's not really something you can just parachute people with no experience for, because they just end up not being very good at it... I've seen actual paid MUDs where the imms roleplay the gods. And it's more tragically sad and cheesy than anything impressive or dramatic...

I think people who want all this stuff should try the alternatives to just see how bad they are, it makes it easier to be happier with Armageddon

[Sephiroto]

I wouldn't mind a passive point-buy system where points accrue at a rate based on character wisdom and could be invested with diminishing returns into skills. And this shouldn't replace the current system, but simply help somewhat over the long run.

But let's be real, what will people invest these points into? Weapon skills and maybe hard-to-raise psionics? That's not an all inclusive list, but you get the point. It's already possible to master many skills really quickly. The game's already easy enough for veterans, IMO. Aside from those 2 classifications of skills, I'm not sure why it would need to be any easier. The difficult part of the game is not having an understanding of how it works.

[Brokkr]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

[Malken]

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

A game that has nearly 1 million players online right now can afford to say that. Also -

"As you gain reputation in your current territory, you'll slowly unlock new rewards that grant you bonuses while playing in that territory. Obviously, the optional rewards that grant you bonus XP should be a priority if you're just looking to level as quickly as possible. Having said that, don't overlook the "gathering speed" bonuses and similar rewards in the late game as they could prove to be more valuable in the long run."

Maybe someone who was born in Tuluk should have their skills go up faster if they're playing in the North 

[Citizen Puddi]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

to be fair people dont play new world for the reasons people play armageddon :x

[Night Queen]

It's definitely a good point though, I doubt I am the only one that resents some sponsored roles that were apparently uber combat heroes when having little prior public history to have those kind of skills were rarely ever being seen in the wilds (COUGH), it's exactly the same kind of issue really..

USUALLY at the moment the game is more like a simulation of a real virtual world and that's what makes it so interesting If someone is long lived you know they are probably quite scary, and not just because they idled their way to skills like some "light RP" games, but because.. They really were in multiple situations where they could've died, but didn't... And that's what makes some really good stories, too. Without the 'grind' a lot less crazy stuff would happen.. I feel like the older players sometimes feel more like they deserve skills they grinded "before", but if you don't focus on the end result and instead the journey, because skills don't matter THAT much as the actions your character takes... ***THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF THE FUN COMES FROM***

[Brokkr]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

to be fair people dont play new world for the reasons people play armageddon :x

PvE.  PvP.  Resource gathering.  Crafting.

My point was Malken seemed to be pointing to the MMO category for what was "modern", when the most recently released MMO that so far has been quite successful in its launch...does not have passive offline gains, in 2021.  In fact, it is a massive grind machine.

[Malken]

My point was Malken seemed to be pointing to the MMO category for what was "modern", when the most recently released MMO that so far has been quite successful in its launch...does not have passive offline gains, in 2021.  In fact, it is a massive grind machine.

But it's still not a good comparison because most MMOs, including New World, now have rested XP which makes you gain skills faster when you come back from having logged out for a certain amount of time. New World also doesn't have perma-death where you are constantly in a cycle of starting from near-scratch skills-wise. Once you are level 60 in New World you are level 60, no matter how long it takes you. That pretty much works the same for every single MMOs out there.

[The Gruffalo]

NPC training options should be expanded to all city-based clans, starting with noble houses and other low-pop city clans.

It significantly reduces the isolation and futility otherwise felt in those roles; you are no longer unrealistically suffering in your ability to skill up in exchange for being willing to contribute to a clan rather than play independent. Once you reach a certain point, there is a plateau where it may well be more ideal to "wilderness train", but it gets you to an extremely reasonable level of competency as long as you understand how the combat code works and how to train effectively. OTOH, being incompetent in combat after years in a House or city-based clan which has military resources is silly bordering on unrealistic.

[Maso]

Once you are level 60 in New World you are level 60, no matter how long it takes you. That pretty much works the same for every single MMOs out there.

It won't be long until level 60 is the new 0. A staple of MMOs is to raise the the max level fairly consistently to maintain... the grind.. forever and ever.

I agree with many of the sentiments here that are against offline skill gains. I think it's a case of 'be careful what you ask for'. We humans feed off achievement, earned achievement. Giving something for nothing is not going to result in that sweet dopamine hit that comes from progress. Even those advocates of offline skill gains may find that their interest declines for inexplicable reasons were it to be implemented.

I do, however, agree that there are issues around 'the grind' in general and that it could be better balanced with the needs and realities of our player base. I just don't think that is the solution. For the same reason I don't think starting with higher start levels and lower max levels is a good solution either.

I do like the idea of earning points during the life of an active character that can be spent on boosting the next (or saved for a bigger boost on the one after etc). Since that would be earned. It would feel like progress on an account level. And it would balance out in that once spent you would have to start from scratch again to earn more points to spend. You wouldn't be able to boost every PC. So you would get people coming in at various levels.

I really dislike being in a clan or a group of PCs and when all the PCs who came before me have died/stored/disappeared knowing now that I am 'top' and that all new PCs who come in will be newbs who I will have to mentor/train/look after. That's even more exhausting for me than having to start from scratch myself. And it's a cycle that feels so samey. I get most burned out once I hit this phase. I would love it if new PCs could show bigger, badder and stronger than mine and then they can look after me for a bit. Or at least competent so they can share the burden. :p

[mansa]

I could see a timer that you get, that is able to be 'spend' on skill points, based on how long you've had the character.

If I were to design something, I could see it be something like this:


Every 10 days, you get 1 "spendable skill point", and it accumulates over time with no cap.

You can spend 1 point and get 2 skill percentages on the following skill categories:
Stealth
Manipulation
Perception
Barter
Language
Craft

You can spend 2 points and get 1 skill percentage on the following combat skills:
archery
crossbow use
blowguns
throw
sling use
guarding
rescue
subdue
threaten
parry
flee
shield use
dual wield
two-handed
blind fighting


You can spend 3 points and get 1 skill percentage in the following combat skills:
sap
backstab
hack
riposte
kick
disarm
bash
charge
and ALL SPELLS

You can spend 4 points and get 1 skill percentage in the weapon skills.

[Narf]

I'm going to throw in my opinion that offline skills gains would solve relatively few of the grind problems, while creating a couple new issues. First of all, they encourage people who want to avoid everyone until they're skilled up enough to engage them to avoid playing in the early game. Second and much more importantly they don't help new players hardly at all.. I think either a tinkered and simplified "trade max for current" skill system, or a specialized "grindless" class would be helpful /both/ to old and new players alike. Offline skill gains provide very little benefit to new players. In fact, I imagine most of the new players that get frustrated with repeatedly failing their basic skills would be gone before any sort of offline skill gain even kicked in.