The Grind: A compromise solution

[Narf]

I started this thread in response to a reoccurring complaint that tends to come up again and again. That is that a certain percentage of the playerbase is either sick of, never liked, or can't afford the time to dedicate to skilling up their characters. There were a number of reasons stated for this, whether it be kids, jobs, just getting sick of it over the years, or getting used to games that have a much higher reward:time spent ratio, but they all feed into the same thing. Unfortunately, the most obvious solution to shorten the grind is fairly contentious for a few reasons. On the one hand a certain percentage of the playerbase genuinely enjoys the grind. The skill grind also serves a purpose in the game of ensuring that characters have diverse levels of abilities rather than having everyone running around with capped characters needing little to no help from others for either training or to accomplish their given task. Further, even if everyone was on the same page with regards to reducing grind-time (you're going to be really sick of reading the word "grind" by the time you're done reading this), the degree to which it would be reduced would still be contentious as everyone has different ideas and preferences for how much to leave remaining, as well as different amounts of time available to dedicate to the game.

So that's the dilemma as best as I can articulate it. Here's a potential solution that sidesteps a lot of the issues with reducing grind:

Create a new class for each of the iconic sorts of characters: Criminal, Merchant, Fighter, Hunter.

These classes would be /additional/ options above and beyond the existing classes, and each class would begin with all skills on their list at useful levels. Usefulness would likely depend on the individual skill, but all the skills on their list should be able to do their intended job out of the gate, no grinding needed. In exchange for this boon, all of these classes would have lower caps on their skills, effectively reducing their potential in comparison with the existing classes.

Grind-less characters could be used  by old and new players alike. For older players that are sick of the grind and just want to drop a ready-made character into a role, and dedicate themselves solely to that role this would ensure they could do that out of the gate. For new players who wanted to explore the world and didn't want to figure out the sometimes difficult or downright arcane process of practicing skills, they could be ensured a reasonably competent character who can immediately start exploring their own little section of the game world without immediately dieing or getting frustrated by repeated failures at whatever their trying to do. Hunters wouldn't fall off their mounts in the middle of a fight and die on their ass, crafters wouldn't waste the materials that they had to spend the last three days figuring out how to obtain (new players often have trouble finding crafting materials), they wouldn't get caught and thrown in jail on their very first (and also second, third and fourth) attempt to pick the pocket of someone. New players need to be able to jump in and get their feet wet without being expected to 'practice skills' for their first few days played. In fact, if a new player has failed at most everything they've tried to do in the first couple hours of gameplay, well they probably aren't going to stick around long.

[najdorf]

Do not add new classes, use current ones.
Introduce a command like "gain" to be used only within first 3 hours of gameplay, like reroll
It reduces a player's cap by X amount, and adds that to skill level.

command gain:
gain hunt 10
gain piercing weapons 20
gain shield use 10
gain armormaking 30
etc.

If your hunt cap is 80, and starting at 20. After using gain hunt 10
Your skill will go up to 30 and cap reduced to 70.
Cannot be rerolled or taken back, new cap is permanent.

[Narf]

Do not add new classes, use current ones.
Introduce a command like "gain" to be used only within first 3 hours of gameplay, like reroll
It reduces a player's cap by X amount, and adds that to skill level.

command gain:
gain hunt 10
gain piercing weapons 20
gain shield use 10
gain armormaking 30
etc.

If your hunt cap is 80, and starting at 20. After using gain hunt 10
Your skill will go up to 30 and cap reduced to 70.
Cannot be rerolled or taken back, new cap is permanent.

Hmmm, I see the advantages of this, but could we really expect a new player to use this to their own satisfaction?

[MeTekillot]

Previously, this was partially addressed with the karma skill bump system. I believe it fell by the wayside after the new (relatively) 3 tier system was implemented.

this is a good idea. I had a similar idea, sans the cap on skills; having cycling semi-sponsored roles of established minions in clans such as veterans of the Byn and various Noble fighting forces, or crafters born into the various merchant houses, etc etc. Instead of trading coded potential, players in these roles would have an understanding that their character is meant to live and die in the clan. In exchange for that dedication, they get skills of a typical well trained 5 or 10 day character.

I apologize if it seems like I'm hijacking your idea with mine. We're definitely in agreement of how oppressive the grind can be

[Iiyola]

Yes please!

Anything to get rid of The Grind. Its a waste of RL time which could be filled with RP instead.

[Citizen Puddi]

Personally I'm a fan of the EVE Online system of passive offline gains— and I think something like that could be faniggled into working well within Arm in a variety of different ways.

The only real argument I've seen to such is, "well yea but what if someone just sets their passive gains up and came in as a skilled up nobody" but like who cares? That's hardly any different than someone skilling up solo in the wastes.

Lots of variables are already set up for tweaking. Could set learn rate by Wis, max passive learn caps for relevant skills by clan, could require a certain number of hours played by week for it to even function, karma options, diminishing returns, there's just a big dumptruck of stuff to work with to keep things balanced.

That way people who dig their grind can grind away and git gud faster than those that aren't into it, and people who prefer to focus all of their energy on roleplay can do so without the pressure of falling behind skill-wise getting in the way so much.

And it just makes sense.

My PC is still doing stuff when I'm not logged in.

[Fawcett]

I do wish there was 'holy shit' moments seen in most western movies, where a random person (the protagonist) turns up to town and everyone sneers at him then turns out to be a total unassuming badass. Pretty much unseen in arm, since every new person is.. well, a new person when it comes to skills.

I'm in full support of cutting out grind in some passive/offline way, like the ones mentioned above. Maybe RP points can be put into boosting skills? One thing I personally wouldn't like to see is people skipping from apprentice to master in a short amount of time with no downside or cost. Then everyone would be the protagonist.

[Malken]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

[X-D]

Only option I like is Najdorf's.

Though I would change the numbers as lowering a cap by 10 is bigger then raising a start by 10.

I would have gain1 and gain2.

Gain 1 would raise the starting skills by 10 while lowering the caps by 5, gain2 would raise starting skills by 20-25 and lower cap by 15. I would only allow the gain2 to players with at least 1 karma though. or maybe special app so that the player can demonstrate to the staff that they REALLY do want this. Also, either can only be used once and no undo.

Sorry, no gaining skills offline. There is a huge difference in fact, if you solo skill gain in the wilderness you might still have to interact with PCs and definitely the game world, which means risks. Unless you want to introduce some sort of % that something bad happens to your PC while you are offline skill gaining, I am quite against that.

As to the karma skill gains it was/is two little to bother with waiting on staff to do. a small gain to 1-2 skills...meh, the gain you start with can be done in a couple days played anyway. Likely you will wait 15 days for approvel.

(edit) Hell, I would not be against a gain3 option for the really hardcore I hate grind folks. Cuts all skills in half (cept for like contact) And including branched And maxes them.

[Citizen Puddi]

Sorry, no gaining skills offline. There is a huge difference in fact, if you solo skill gain in the wilderness you might still have to interact with PCs and definitely the game world, which means risks. Unless you want to introduce some sort of % that something bad happens to your PC while you are offline skill gaining, I am quite against that.

Weekly playtime requirements for the system to even function for your char kinda covers for that, no?

[creeper386]

As someone who likes the grind, I think the option for smaller sponsored roles the only one that really looks appealing to me.

But I wouldn't want it exclusively for clans..

Really I think the skill bump system should be looked over and hopefully automated. And I wouldn't want to limit it to one skill per karma point personally. Two or three depending on what the bump amounts are. I think I'd rather upwards of 9 skill bumps available at a smaller amount though for more options.

Or maybe a system like was kicked around during the mundane vs magicker debate where playtime on your character gives your "points" to spend on the next. IDK.

Offline skill increases. Hard no from me.

I guess the "gain" thing isn't much different. But I'd rather it somehow be connected to actual effort still put into the game.

[Night Queen]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

Reaaaaally? We could add some microtransactions too to fund advertising if we're gonna go down this path?

I mean...

I think this would probably kill the game, I've seen people complaining about it being quiet, while plot churns and storms around them, because they just don't log on much themselves - which is kinda sad. There's actually been a lot going on but these people just logged in at the wrong time.

A lot of it's about timing, and a lot of RP only happens by those special little chance encounters and coincidences, some of which wouldn't happen if people didn't have as much reason to go explore and do stuff. It'd just be dead air, people logging on now and then to update their skills, then heading to a tavern occasionally. I've seen MUDs that are not RP-focused that are like that, and they're very boring - great for casually doing stuff, sure! But completely bland, very little that goes on... I don't think most people would like the end result of going down that path. There's already a lot of MUDs that have done stuff like this and they are very dreary places... If Armageddon became just another MUSH it would be kind of a cultural vandalism when there's nothing really like it left. It's more a simulation of a real world than a soap opera, kinda.

[Malken]

Reaaaaally? We could add some microtransactions too to fund advertising if we're gonna go down this path?

Please do! With the amount of $$$ I spend on MMOs microtransactions, it could pay for five full-time Armageddon staffers.

[Night Queen]

This is also something other MUDs have done, though - And from the quality of those other places I got the impression it's not really something you can just parachute people with no experience for, because they just end up not being very good at it... I've seen actual paid MUDs where the imms roleplay the gods. And it's more tragically sad and cheesy than anything impressive or dramatic...

I think people who want all this stuff should try the alternatives to just see how bad they are, it makes it easier to be happier with Armageddon

[Sephiroto]

I wouldn't mind a passive point-buy system where points accrue at a rate based on character wisdom and could be invested with diminishing returns into skills. And this shouldn't replace the current system, but simply help somewhat over the long run.

But let's be real, what will people invest these points into? Weapon skills and maybe hard-to-raise psionics? That's not an all inclusive list, but you get the point. It's already possible to master many skills really quickly. The game's already easy enough for veterans, IMO. Aside from those 2 classifications of skills, I'm not sure why it would need to be any easier. The difficult part of the game is not having an understanding of how it works.

[Brokkr]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

[Malken]

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

A game that has nearly 1 million players online right now can afford to say that. Also -

"As you gain reputation in your current territory, you'll slowly unlock new rewards that grant you bonuses while playing in that territory. Obviously, the optional rewards that grant you bonus XP should be a priority if you're just looking to level as quickly as possible. Having said that, don't overlook the "gathering speed" bonuses and similar rewards in the late game as they could prove to be more valuable in the long run."

Maybe someone who was born in Tuluk should have their skills go up faster if they're playing in the North 

[Citizen Puddi]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

to be fair people dont play new world for the reasons people play armageddon :x

[Night Queen]

It's definitely a good point though, I doubt I am the only one that resents some sponsored roles that were apparently uber combat heroes when having little prior public history to have those kind of skills were rarely ever being seen in the wilds (COUGH), it's exactly the same kind of issue really..

USUALLY at the moment the game is more like a simulation of a real virtual world and that's what makes it so interesting If someone is long lived you know they are probably quite scary, and not just because they idled their way to skills like some "light RP" games, but because.. They really were in multiple situations where they could've died, but didn't... And that's what makes some really good stories, too. Without the 'grind' a lot less crazy stuff would happen.. I feel like the older players sometimes feel more like they deserve skills they grinded "before", but if you don't focus on the end result and instead the journey, because skills don't matter THAT much as the actions your character takes... ***THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF THE FUN COMES FROM***

[Brokkr]

Passive offline gains, please.

Welcome to 2021.

New World would point to the grind being alive and well in 2021.


I am guessing there would be a difference of opinion on whether folks just want to do away with skilling up, or would like to speed it up in certain situation (e.g. Arm of the Dragon training opportunities, for instance).  My only comment would be that never having your combat oriented person be vulnerable, from a skill perspective, may not go over well with folks that want to kill said character.

to be fair people dont play new world for the reasons people play armageddon :x

PvE.  PvP.  Resource gathering.  Crafting.

My point was Malken seemed to be pointing to the MMO category for what was "modern", when the most recently released MMO that so far has been quite successful in its launch...does not have passive offline gains, in 2021.  In fact, it is a massive grind machine.

[Malken]

My point was Malken seemed to be pointing to the MMO category for what was "modern", when the most recently released MMO that so far has been quite successful in its launch...does not have passive offline gains, in 2021.  In fact, it is a massive grind machine.

But it's still not a good comparison because most MMOs, including New World, now have rested XP which makes you gain skills faster when you come back from having logged out for a certain amount of time. New World also doesn't have perma-death where you are constantly in a cycle of starting from near-scratch skills-wise. Once you are level 60 in New World you are level 60, no matter how long it takes you. That pretty much works the same for every single MMOs out there.

[The Gruffalo]

NPC training options should be expanded to all city-based clans, starting with noble houses and other low-pop city clans.

It significantly reduces the isolation and futility otherwise felt in those roles; you are no longer unrealistically suffering in your ability to skill up in exchange for being willing to contribute to a clan rather than play independent. Once you reach a certain point, there is a plateau where it may well be more ideal to "wilderness train", but it gets you to an extremely reasonable level of competency as long as you understand how the combat code works and how to train effectively. OTOH, being incompetent in combat after years in a House or city-based clan which has military resources is silly bordering on unrealistic.

[Maso]

Once you are level 60 in New World you are level 60, no matter how long it takes you. That pretty much works the same for every single MMOs out there.

It won't be long until level 60 is the new 0. A staple of MMOs is to raise the the max level fairly consistently to maintain... the grind.. forever and ever.

I agree with many of the sentiments here that are against offline skill gains. I think it's a case of 'be careful what you ask for'. We humans feed off achievement, earned achievement. Giving something for nothing is not going to result in that sweet dopamine hit that comes from progress. Even those advocates of offline skill gains may find that their interest declines for inexplicable reasons were it to be implemented.

I do, however, agree that there are issues around 'the grind' in general and that it could be better balanced with the needs and realities of our player base. I just don't think that is the solution. For the same reason I don't think starting with higher start levels and lower max levels is a good solution either.

I do like the idea of earning points during the life of an active character that can be spent on boosting the next (or saved for a bigger boost on the one after etc). Since that would be earned. It would feel like progress on an account level. And it would balance out in that once spent you would have to start from scratch again to earn more points to spend. You wouldn't be able to boost every PC. So you would get people coming in at various levels.

I really dislike being in a clan or a group of PCs and when all the PCs who came before me have died/stored/disappeared knowing now that I am 'top' and that all new PCs who come in will be newbs who I will have to mentor/train/look after. That's even more exhausting for me than having to start from scratch myself. And it's a cycle that feels so samey. I get most burned out once I hit this phase. I would love it if new PCs could show bigger, badder and stronger than mine and then they can look after me for a bit. Or at least competent so they can share the burden. :p

[mansa]

I could see a timer that you get, that is able to be 'spend' on skill points, based on how long you've had the character.

If I were to design something, I could see it be something like this:


Every 10 days, you get 1 "spendable skill point", and it accumulates over time with no cap.

You can spend 1 point and get 2 skill percentages on the following skill categories:
Stealth
Manipulation
Perception
Barter
Language
Craft

You can spend 2 points and get 1 skill percentage on the following combat skills:
archery
crossbow use
blowguns
throw
sling use
guarding
rescue
subdue
threaten
parry
flee
shield use
dual wield
two-handed
blind fighting


You can spend 3 points and get 1 skill percentage in the following combat skills:
sap
backstab
hack
riposte
kick
disarm
bash
charge
and ALL SPELLS

You can spend 4 points and get 1 skill percentage in the weapon skills.

[Narf]

I'm going to throw in my opinion that offline skills gains would solve relatively few of the grind problems, while creating a couple new issues. First of all, they encourage people who want to avoid everyone until they're skilled up enough to engage them to avoid playing in the early game. Second and much more importantly they don't help new players hardly at all.. I think either a tinkered and simplified "trade max for current" skill system, or a specialized "grindless" class would be helpful /both/ to old and new players alike. Offline skill gains provide very little benefit to new players. In fact, I imagine most of the new players that get frustrated with repeatedly failing their basic skills would be gone before any sort of offline skill gain even kicked in.

[Sephiroto]

I can see it now. Staff implements a way to skill up faster. 12 months later some players say: "It should be harder to skill up. All my skills are master and now I have nothing to do!"

As someone who just came back to the game, skilling up feels a bit too easy in some areas and the same as usual in others. I'm not sure how I feel about becoming a master <crafting_skill> at 2-3 days played just trying to get by. And the branching & progression of some combat skills feels way too fast.

Rather than trying to solve a problem, I'd like to see more discussion about whether this problem is a problem that really needs to be fixed and why it should be fixed. Particularly, what classification of skills grind too slow, and why? Also, why does having low skills suck? And why would veterans be dying and starting over so frequently that they are hampered by noobish skills frequently enough for it to be a bother?

[Malken]

As someone who just came back to the game

Players Connected (7:30 pm EST):
31 (24 minutes ago)

Average Connected:
22 (last 30 days) ▼4%

I'm just going to give you a hint on why people are trying to get players back to the game. The time it takes to skill up and the often idiocy of the things you must do in order to skill up is in the top 3 reasons as to why veterans left the game in that recent thread.

[Night Queen]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

And if a character is basically a mall cop they wield the awesome power of AUTHORITY and you will barely ever need to use those combat skills anyway, because you already are so incredibly outclassing anyone you want to hit with that. Your job is to bully people and make lots of drama for everyone, not be rambo!

[Citizen Puddi]

at what point was it suggested that one could idle up to max or some crazy-high skill level or some such?

Looking here and in Discord I get the feeling that the potential big picture of the proposal is getting glossed over entirely. 

[creeper386]

I also agree I'm not sure it's a problem. I've said it before and same as Sephiroto said, some skills gain up ridiculously fast.

Like, max most of your non combat skills in under ten days plays.

How fast do you want skills to be gained?

Now I'll admit weapons skills go up very slowly. But they do for everyone. The only time I see it as a problem is when skills are branched behind weapon skills.

I've seen characters get involved in plots from the get go without skills. What is the grind limiting?

[Citizen Puddi]

I also agree I'm not sure it's a problem. I've said it before and same as Sephiroto said, some skills gain up ridiculously fast.

Like, max most of your non combat skills in under ten days plays.

Ten days played-- if you know what you're doing.

idk about you folks, but I was playing Arm for like three years before someone wound up telling me that my approach to skilling up was actual hot garbage.

On top of that, ten days played.

That's 240 hours.

If a casual player can only muster around 3~4 hours per session and can manage this faithfully every single day, that's over two months RL time-- and let's not pretend that some skills are perhaps a little too likely to fail disastrously (read: you'll have to start all over) if used in any serious manner until they're either at or around maxed out.

In any other setting or game, doubly so for one with permadeath, that's a an actual bananas crazy ludicrous amount of time, especially considering that you can get sent right back to the start if you just get unlucky or mess up somehow.

How fast do you want skills to be gained?

Not sure about that exactly yet, but maaaaybe a little quicker than a month to just start getting somewhat reliable and useful as far as the code's concerned.

But that's just me, personally. I'd imagine some sort of consensus should be sought.

I've seen characters get involved in plots from the get go without skills. What is the grind limiting?

idk man, as someone that's gotten involved into pretty heavy plots still decked out in starter shop gear, I can tell you.

Stuff like that is very much a function of just being in the right place at the right time without a whole lot of rhyme or reason.

Kudos to anyone that can manage to do that with any consistency, but my anecdotal experiences have pointed towards having to be able to actually do stuff to get involved with much of anything.

[Fawcett]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

Cities have military academies. Training halls. Drills. Not to mention that the soldiers in them supposedly go out on patrol on an often basis to fight spiders, raiders, and other bad things - even if they aren't academy trained. This should be reflected IG, but can be hard due to population issues.

Tribals hunt raptors, sure, but that doesn't mean they should normally be anywhere near better then a soldier who trained under officers who trained in academies, fights in wars, and trains martial techniques every day. This is like saying that the Gauls were actually more skilled then the Romans in battle simply because they were tribalistic.

The above is why I heavily support Gruffalo's stance on giving most clans (within reason) a training NPC. Hell, maybe even being able to pay for use of a public-ish training NPC for independents? They allow you to use the current skill system in a more time effective way.. as is seen already and well received in certain clans. Expand the good stuff! 

[Halaster]

I'm going to throw in my opinion that offline skills gains would solve relatively few of the grind problems, while creating a couple new issues. First of all, they encourage people who want to avoid everyone until they're skilled up enough to engage them to avoid playing in the early game. Second and much more importantly they don't help new players hardly at all.. I think either a tinkered and simplified "trade max for current" skill system, or a specialized "grindless" class would be helpful /both/ to old and new players alike. Offline skill gains provide very little benefit to new players. In fact, I imagine most of the new players that get frustrated with repeatedly failing their basic skills would be gone before any sort of offline skill gain even kicked in.

Yeah, an offline skill system doesn't solve for new players.  It specifically solves for helping players who don't have a lot of time to play.  It represents them gaining a bit of skill while they're not online. 

[Halaster]

I'm commenting as just a player discussing it, not really promising anything from a staff perspective.

Over the years starting skills have been raised to help people start out at little bit more ahead.  Heavy combat roles of today are pretty dang impressive compared to warriors from ages past.  I'm personally a fan of moderate to long grind because it makes those who go through the grind stand out.  If it's really easy for everyone to skill up fast, then everyone becomes skilled, and then they're all the same.  And there's not much special about a highly skilled person.  A slower curve means those who make it to the top are special.  I realize I'm discounting the negatives that go along with the grind, and I totally acknowledge them.  It's just that I personally think the benefits of a slower progression outweigh the benefits of a faster one.

That said, it's certainly feasible that some balancing in skill progression might be in order.  I know some go up super fast, some not so much and maybe they need looked at.

In my opinion what's more important is that people are able to "do things" within a reasonable time frame as opposed to "maxing out".  You don't need to be a max combat character to hunt carru, you just need to be good enough to hunt carru (if that's your goal).  Having a pimped out badass character is certainly fun, but I think it's the journey that's the most rewarding. 

You know.. "the friends you make a long the way!"

edit:  I want to add that me saying all this doesn't mean there won't be changes.  We've seen the feedback thread and continue to collate the answers and discuss options.

[Dune Bunny]

I think that perhaps tying skill gains to age could really help, and be done in a passive way.

For every year of age above X to start, a certain batch of skills related to your class/sub will be Y% higher than someone starting at X age.

For every year in game, skills have a chance to improve a certain amount as a means of reflecting upon experience of the player during their offline lives.

I'm sure that can be expanded on in many ways, but it sets a tone of a person having experience during downtime as improving in things, without shooting skills right up to max.

[Night Queen]

I mean if your character doesn't ever leave the city then accept that they aren't meant to be Conan the Barbarian and enjoy the role you applied the character as? Or play a tribal character instead

It's silly and unrealistic for a character to be an expert warrior after years in a rich House or city-based clan with lots of resources but no real combat experience, if they've never left the walls. Every tribal character is like... "Who are these people even? Oh this is cute, they think they are tough." City strength is in NUMBERS and that makes perfect sense in the lore.

Cities have military academies. Training halls. Drills. Not to mention that the soldiers in them supposedly go out on patrol on an often basis to fight spiders, raiders, and other bad things - even if they aren't academy trained. This should be reflected IG, but can be hard due to population issues.

Tribals hunt raptors, sure, but that doesn't mean they should normally be anywhere near better then a soldier who trained ...

Training is not real, real is real - Any NPCs used for "training" that can't kill the character should definitely be removed Roman/Academy military tactics don't apply to barely any fights that happen in Armageddon, and the big-scale wars where it does, formations and large-scale tactics are more a thing for the NPCs to emote about - on an individual level a tribal that lives by the sword to survive every day is definitely going to be a lot more bitey than mister macho soldier that is good at following orders but whose daily life is shouting to the others to chase a pickpocket

[Citizen Puddi]

Training is not real, real is real - Any NPCs used for "training" that can't kill the character should definitely be removed

That training and sparring without trying to murder your partner is not really REALLY helpful as far as knowing how to fight is incredibly not true, historically and practically speaking at least.

Fencing masters like Johannes Liechtenauer or Fiore de'i Liberi would not have had much of a career at all if they had to present a lethal threat to their students in order for them to get good.

I mean if we really get into it, if I had to place a bet on a tribal whos combat experience is probably mostly hunting and stabbing gortoks and carru with a spear vs. a trained militiaman that knows a thing or two about combat physics and leverage, my bet's on the militiaman every single time.

[Night Queen]

It doesn't make for a very interesting story or game if people can just sit around eating cheese to victory

[Citizen Puddi]

It doesn't make for a very interesting story or game if people can just sit around eating cheese to victory

Not sure where exactly that was proposed, but sure.

I'd argue that digging into boring "meta" skill-raising stuff for the several hundredth time doesn't make for a very interesting story or game either.

[Gentleboy]

I feel like I'm one of the only people to say this, but I enjoy the grind.

Those who put in time should be rewarded. I like seeing my characters grow and nurturing them.

[Citizen Puddi]

I feel like I'm one of the only people to say this, but I enjoy the grind.

Those who put in time should be rewarded. I like seeing my characters grow and nurturing them.

Which is great!

I don't think any of the ideas in this thread so far would diminish any returns from those that want a grind.

It's mostly all about taking it a little easier on folks that don't like it even a little bit or don't have the free time to do all the things.

[Night Queen]

There's just no way to do it without ruining the "realism" of the world for everyone else though, once you turn it from a virtual world to a cheese-eating simulator, it just changes the type of game entirely - there's lots of MUDs/MUSHes that go along this path of giving everything away easy, and they just become very boring games, this game is very unique in atmosphere and culture, if you try others you'll see just how boring they can get, seriously, I dare you, I'm not naming names but most are reaaaaally boring.

[The Gruffalo]

Once you reach a certain point, there is a plateau where it may well be more ideal to "wilderness train", but it gets you to an extremely reasonable level of competency

You're also making a false squavalence. House guards and militia soldiers are not mall cops. They're people trained by powerful institutions to fight, protect and serve them, in a cutthroat, brutal, dystopic city-state, and often patrol the very wastes your tribals inhabit.

The NPCs are limited but are an extremely reasonable solution to the longstanding problem of virtual resources and population not matching player experience. I bet you'd change your tune if a group of tribal hunters were made available to train with-- something I wouldn't be against.

Again, you'll plateau against them, and wilderness based PCs ultimately have the edge. It seems to me like you are afraid that PCs aren't taking risks against deadly NPCs to get their gains- well, that's every combat clan with a decent population.

[Citizen Puddi]

There's just no way to do it without ruining the "realism" of the world for everyone else though, once you turn it from a virtual world to a cheese-eating simulator, it just changes the type of game entirely - there's lots of MUDs/MUSHes that go along this path of giving everything away easy, and they just become very boring games, this game is very unique in atmosphere and culture, if you try others you'll see just how boring they can get, seriously, I dare you, I'm not naming names but most are reaaaaally boring.

I understand that you don't like the ideas presented, as unlikely as they are to be implemented, but we're just gonna have to agree to disagree if you keep ignoring the bits that might do well to prevent this "cheese-eating simulator" scenario you've cooked up and comparing muds/mushes, that are decidedly nothing at all like Armageddon in pretty much every other aspect, to Armageddon.

The fact is there is a very not insignificant portion of the playerbase that has left due to the time requirements and the grind overall, and I'd be willing to put money on the idea of spending months to build up a character only to potentially lose it and having to start back from zero again is a big turnoff for potential newcomers on top of that.

I at least know everyone I've tried to introduce to the game couldn't get over that hump.

More players would make for a more exciting game on the whole, even if a few of them don't have the time or inclination to rise and grind.

[Patuk]

Not the most popular opinion, but I'll state it: I don't mind how long the grind takes for most skills. Could it be faster? I guess. Is it currently a problem? Not really. You can get even survival classes to a point where they can at least survive PvE scenarios pretty well, ambush creatures like spiders or ridiculous scripts like dujat excepted. No problem.

No, my issue is with the form the grind takes. Anyone who's tried getting a weapon skill above advanced knows it is a thankless and ridiculous effort to actually do so; it is unintuitive, it breaks immersion, and it heavily rewards edge case wilderness scenarios over people who might want to join mercenary or military clans for training. Fight a master warrior? Dumb, useless, waste of time. Go into the canyons of waste to accidentally tumble into a dark hole and fight things in the dark? Genius, get master weapon skills, this man is a god of war.

So, that. The grind's length, I take no issue with, but how ridiculous things get WRT the means needed to raise weapon skills is really old to me.

[Night Queen]

You're also making a false squavalence.

I bet you'd change your tune if a group of tribal hunters were made available to train with

No, they shouldn't exist for anyone, this isn't a factional thing really, just poking fun at the whole idea that what is essentially a group of enthusiastic walts are somehow equivalent to peoples who kill a giant monster with a wooden spear because they are hungry in the morning

[Lotion]

For a combat character facing strife and becoming a badass is an important part of the character's story imo.  Eliminating or greatly reducing grinding for crafting skills, some manipulation skills, some perception skills, and psionic skills sounds great, but I think if you want to be good at fighting quicker you should just pick enforcer, fighter, raider, or learn how to make a proper twinking regimen that includes good roleplay.

[Inks]

I like the grind the way it is, I like the way it rewards effort and I like the endorphins I feel when a skill finally ticks up a level. I like it a lot. Please don't change it ever.

[CodeMaster]

This would probably be a big coding project, but it would be cool if the 'base' level of skills were way easier to get up off the ground (to reduce the grind).  But to counteract that, you could add a growing penalty for not using a skill for a long time.  An RL day or two could be all that's needed to shake off the rust.

> skills
piercing weapons (master, neglected)  <-- a penalty
slashing weapons (advanced, familiar)  <-- a bonus, maybe?

'Rinth rats would always be sharp when it comes to stealth, whereas a commoner might have to practice up before a big heist.  Bynners would always be better than people who didn't spar daily.

[Greve]

I don't really believe in stuff like gain commands and ready-made skilled characters. I don't think that can ever be an ideal solution to the issue. Most of the skills that are problematic can be made less so with changes to the way they increase. If you take a normal everyday skill like sneak/hide or forage or any crafting skill that isn't gated behind material scarcity, anyone playing a character that uses these with any real regularity can generally max them out (or at least raise them to a satisfyingly useful level) in 3-4 days of playtime, and that timeframe seems very reasonable. The only real problem is with the combat skills.

Two changes that would eliminate nearly all issues with the grind:

1) Sparring NPCs in military clans. With player numbers what they are, this has simply become necessary. In order for a game of this scope to function at all, you cannot gate combat training exclusively behind PC-to-PC interaction, and characters in military clans are usually prohibited from dicking around alone in the wilderness to hack away at animals and bandits. Sparring NPCs would solve so many problems, and it's not some kind of unexplored concept that could introduce a bunch of new issues--other RPIs have done this before and it worked out great, with a few simple rules like "don't ignore other players in the room so you can spar the NPC" and "don't fucking backstab him." This also makes these clans way more attractive. A sparring NPC doesn't need to take you to <master> but it should provide the kind of training that at least matches what you can get from just hunting medium-risk animals or getting scummy in the 'rinth.

2) The biggest flaw in this game's code is the way weapon skillgains are tied exclusively to dodge. I don't understand why this needs to be the case. For one thing, it's just not realistic. Like it's simply not the way martial training works in reality. It also puts this ridiculous and artificial roadblock in the way of training, because opponents will stop dodging you long before they can really be considered so far beneath you that you shouldn't get anything out of fighting them. I've had a 5-day character with apprentice in weapons that couldn't get a miss sparring an opponent who went on to win the fucking Luir's combat tournament the same month. I couldn't land a single hit on him, but he parried and blocked 100% of my attacks, so in the eyes of the code, he was not good enough for me to learn anything. Some of the most dangerous animals in the game could barely even get you to journeyman skill because they just don't dodge. Paradoxically, most of the animals that actually can dodge well enough that you might reach a reasonable level of skill are not dangerous at all. This is an ancient relic of 1990s code that makes no sense whatsoever and creates huge problems for no good reason, and until this one thing is changed, there's no point even discussing other solutions because it'll stand in the way of all of them.

Many of the dangerous animals need a bump to their defense. If you look at something like a tembo or a drov beetle, these can be seriously dangerous even to fairly skilled fighters, but they can't dodge for shit even at apprentice weapon skills. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the offensive and defensive capabilities of animals. After a month of training, I'm still pretty leery about facing a braxat, but I know for sure that it has basically 0% chance to dodge my attacks. Same goes for almost any wildlife, really. They're jam-packed with offense and damage but don't seem to have more defense than a gortok. I remember this being very different back in the day, and not just with regards to the notorious stilt lizards. Something changed. I recall raising weapon skills to advanced on my warriors and rangers off of animals that can no longer dodge me at apprentice. Do the new combat classes start with insanely high offense or something?

At the end of the day, the issue with the grind is that so much of your time is wasted. It's wasted standing alone in the sparring hall day after day, or it's wasted hunting for hours at a time without learning anything whatsoever. Whenever you actually can get effective training, your skills go up just fine. The problem is that effective training is this bizarre unicorn you hope to find one day, and until you do, most of your time is pissed away on a futile attempt to eke out a little bit of progress. This is why a one-time skill bump is no solution, nor do offline gains change the fact that there's little feeling of progression when actually playing the game. It feels like shit to spend so much time on something you know was pointless. The grind is an important part of Armageddon's gameplay, but that only works when you're actually getting something out of it. Praying that a clanmate shows up for training today is not a grind, it's just a waste of time.

[Barsook]

I like the grind the way it is, I like the way it rewards effort and I like the endorphins I feel when a skill finally ticks up a level. I like it a lot. Please don't change it ever.

But...

Maybe there should be some passive way for combat since it's the slowest and it would the most realistic to do because of the virtual world. Which is already stated in above posts.

[Inks]

That would be awful. What is this, Haven?

Raising combat skills through training/hunting carries inherent risk, from other players or NPCs. And it is good.

Also due to changes over the last three years it so so much easier to be decent than it used to be.

Edit: I would be fine for nobles to start with journeyman weapon skills to represent training as they were educated from a young age by tutors, but believe they already are allowed skillbumps in their roles? Not 100% on this.

[Inks]

This is also something other MUDs have done, though - (reduced for size)
I think people who want all this stuff should try the alternatives to just see how bad they are, it makes it easier to be happier with Armageddon

Also this is spot on. Sorry for replying to myself.

[Halaster]

This would probably be a big coding project, but it would be cool if the 'base' level of skills were way easier to get up off the ground (to reduce the grind).  But to counteract that, you could add a growing penalty for not using a skill for a long time.  An RL day or two could be all that's needed to shake off the rust.

> skills
piercing weapons (master, neglected)  <-- a penalty
slashing weapons (advanced, familiar)  <-- a bonus, maybe?

'Rinth rats would always be sharp when it comes to stealth, whereas a commoner might have to practice up before a big heist.  Bynners would always be better than people who didn't spar daily.

I think an easier (coding) approach might be to have skills rise more quickly when they're low, and slower when they're high. 

[Jihelu]

By slower, do we mean current levels (Which I feel are pretty damn slow) or even slower than what we have now?

I feel like that's a decent solution.

I don't really care much about the grind situation, I don't particularly like it but it's something I just deal with. I can generally get a character where I want him in like....5-10 days played.
Which TBH is still kind of a long ass time but its whatever

[Dar]

Something changed. I recall raising weapon skills to advanced on my warriors and rangers off of animals that can no longer dodge me at apprentice. Do the new combat classes start with insanely high offense or something?

First of all, yes. The new classes do start with higher combat capability. Also the way one learns combat skills has changed. Basically if your opponent has low off/def, you will learn slower. Yes, they might be dodging you due to high agility, or whatever. But you'll still learn slower.  This was ment (and I think it worked) to encourage training with partners in clans. So if two people with the same off/def join a clan and train together. Their off/def both raises at loosely similar pace. While a greenhorn with low off/def training with a Veteran, will have their learning sped up incredibly until he gets somewhere near the veteran skill. Then their pace will reduce. This encourages veterans to help teaching the recruits as well. As the more people around him that are at his skill level, the higher are the chances he himself will learn. The learning pace of a veteran surrounded by only greenhorn is probably borderline non existent.

I cant say if that worked as swimmingly in practice. But I think it did at least somewhat.  Training off critters has been severely weakened in pace.

[Jihelu]

From my experience the heavy combat guilds are vastly superior to the old warrior/ranger starts.
I'd say old warrior/ranger is probably where light combat is now.

Playing a heavy combat feels like I've got a whole 5-10 days of offense/defense training in me. It's real nice.

[Nao]

Skill caps for weapon skills were raised. The skill levels all correspond to higher weapon skills, too. A certain level of "high Apprentice" used to show up as "Journeyman" on your skill list and this applies to all the tiers.

[Dresan]

This is a game where you can lose your RP and coded investments in an instant. You can't really compare it to other games especially modern MMOs with no concept of permadeath.

I want to recommend for out of game trianing(please note the numbers need refinement):

1. Every 24 hours an account gets 2 points. Clanned characters get 3 points. This is regardless of whether they are logged in or not.
2. Players can spend these points to fail gain at any skill on their list.
3.This does not interfere with any additional failures people get in the game except for the skill you leveled up depending on your wisdom. Just as if you had failed and successfully gained in that one skill.
4. There is a limit to how many points a player can accumulate. They need to log in and spend their points
5. However different skills have different costs for 1 fail at different levels. The cost for failing hunt at apprentice is different then failing 1 weapon skill at journeyman.

The staff just need to calculate how long they feel its reasonable for a player just using this system alone should be able to get to max levels of any particular skills. IN the case of weapons skills this could still takes weeks or months to get from journeyman to advanced, but you will get better as long as you keep playing.

I've thrown around some fake numbers, they need more refinement but this system:
-Encourages being in a clan.
-Encourages logging on to the game to spend your points.
-Reduces grind in controlled method so we don't have everyone running around with maxed combat skills.
-Eliminates the need for twinkish behavior just to get fails for certain hard to level skills.  You can spend your time RPing and your skills will eventually go up.

[Night Queen]

The problem with everything like that is it:

- Discourages taking risks, discourages adventure, discourages the potential for those accidental fun stories that Armageddon shines on creating, that adventure and risk are important to help create

- Discourages exploring when you can get maxed out without leaving the designated cheese-eating room

- Increases the amount of people with maxed or a-few-steps-away-from-max skills from just idling, when an important part of the process that makes skills valuable is the chance to die while trying to get them - not just from combat, but also stuff like failing climb and how other skills force people into dangerous places or conflict - it means people can get their skills without the chance, like Brokkr said, to be able to kill them. It would be just awful cheese to have people hiding in their clan cocoons until they come out the wider world with everything boosted up... This is already a big problem with some types of sponsored roles!

- Devalues the characters that otherwise might stand out, reduces the dramatic feeling of the game, kills the atmosphere - the end result would be other MUDs that make it easy for everyone to get skills and everyone ends up gods and it's very boring... The challenge is part of the fun

The unique stuff is what brings people back. The unique stuff is why this place still has regular 30+ players while every other RP mud is struggling, dying, or has moved away from RP entirely and doesn't resemble a realistic virtual world anymore at all, to just become stuff like suggested where everything is given out on a MUSH-like OOC basis instead of earned by the character's actions, which actually ironically turns it more into a skills-focused grind fest instead (I've tried both, and anyone that's tried the tabletop style online too knows that people start to just doing the minimum to get their points), just changing the way it's done, idle to victory, a suffocation of the game by pillows - The chance for dying or players to kill you is an IMPORTANT part of the excitement... Otherwise it's just another game it'd just be the same as the boring low-RP MUDs, and this game would LOSE players.

A few people said now don't change it, and I think that's because how it is is actually great: It's not made so no one dies, but that's kind of the point... It's what makes it an adventure when you know a character has survived the crazy stuff their friends fell to. I do think weapon skills seem to be so slow to be actually broken at high end but that can probably be made more reasonable without destroying the whole game world, as a few people said now, everything else seems to be pretty reasonable because it already got redone to make people start with a reasonable skill boost already

[Lotion]

This is a game where you can lose your RP and coded investments in an instant. You can't really compare it to other games especially modern MMOs with no concept of permadeath.

I want to recommend for out of game trianing(please note the numbers need refinement):

1. Every 24 hours an account gets 2 points. Clanned characters get 3 points. This is regardless of whether they are logged in or not.
2. Players can spend these points to fail gain at any skill on their list.
3.This does not interfere with any additional failures people get in the game except for the skill you leveled up depending on your wisdom. Just as if you had failed and successfully gained in that one skill.
4. There is a limit to how many points a player can accumulate. They need to log in and spend their points
5. However different skills have different costs for 1 fail at different levels. The cost for failing hunt at apprentice is different then failing 1 weapon skill at journeyman.

The staff just need to calculate how long they feel its reasonable for a player just using this system alone should be able to get to max levels of any particular skills. IN the case of weapons skills this could still takes weeks or months to get from journeyman to advanced, but you will get better as long as you keep playing.

I've thrown around some fake numbers, they need more refinement but this system:
-Encourages being in a clan.
-Encourages logging on to the game to spend your points.
-Reduces grind in controlled method so we don't have everyone running around with maxed combat skills.
-Eliminates the need for twinkish behavior just to get fails for certain hard to level skills.  You can spend your time RPing and your skills will eventually go up.

Encouraging people to be in a clan like that is very bad. The twinking advantage for clans is that it is often easier or safer to get your fails whether that is through near unlimited supply of craft materials or having a sparring hall.

If there are certain skills that are difficult to max it should be considered if they are meant to be maxed or if the methods required to max them are reasonable.

[Wday]

The grind is what fleshes out our characters.  Coming from nothing and learning, climbing rank and social ladders! I really hope we don't bypass the grind and become a world of starting out legends.

[Hestia]

I'm with Halaster on this.  The initial grind I feel is the most frustrating, especially for new players. They're not looking to be great, at first. They're looking to be useful.  They want to see some kind of reward for their efforts.

So rather than reward veterans, thus completely ignoring new players, I say reward new characters with a growing spurt at the very beginning.  Sure you start out crap with your main skillset. And then you use it once. You see how crappy it is. You buy a length of cloth and ruin the whole thing in the first try. You fail to bandage someone. You fail to parry that spar. You fail to flee from the rat and are stuck duking it out for 10 RL minutes until it finally dies of boredom!

And then - the next day you log in - you try these things again. And you discover you are actually capable of succeeding. You bandage someone badly - but successfully. You parry at least once during the spar. You can turn your cloth into at least one length ends up turning into the set of sleeves you're working on. Your third time trying to flee from the rat, you actually flee.

That initial boost can be enough to tell a player "okay so this is what success looks like, and I know to look for it in the future."  Rather than spending hours and days on end wondering if you'll even recognize it when it happens.

The rest of the progression would be no different than it is now.  It'd still be slow.  Your cap/max wouldn't change. But you'd get that initial boost, the reward for executing the skill shortly after the first time you use it.

[Halaster]

I'm with Halaster on this.  The initial grind I feel is the most frustrating, especially for new players. They're not looking to be great, at first. They're looking to be useful.  They want to see some kind of reward for their efforts.

So rather than reward veterans, thus completely ignoring new players, I say reward new characters with a growing spurt at the very beginning.  Sure you start out crap with your main skillset. And then you use it once. You see how crappy it is. You buy a length of cloth and ruin the whole thing in the first try. You fail to bandage someone. You fail to parry that spar. You fail to flee from the rat and are stuck duking it out for 10 RL minutes until it finally dies of boredom!

And then - the next day you log in - you try these things again. And you discover you are actually capable of succeeding. You bandage someone badly - but successfully. You parry at least once during the spar. You can turn your cloth into at least one length ends up turning into the set of sleeves you're working on. Your third time trying to flee from the rat, you actually flee.

That initial boost can be enough to tell a player "okay so this is what success looks like, and I know to look for it in the future."  Rather than spending hours and days on end wondering if you'll even recognize it when it happens.

The rest of the progression would be no different than it is now.  It'd still be slow.  Your cap/max wouldn't change. But you'd get that initial boost, the reward for executing the skill shortly after the first time you use it.

Maybe some kind of flag on the character so during the first 2 days played they gain 2x faster.  Or something like that, just tossing out numbers for example purpose.

[Hestia]

I'm with Halaster on this.  The initial grind I feel is the most frustrating, especially for new players. They're not looking to be great, at first. They're looking to be useful.  They want to see some kind of reward for their efforts.

So rather than reward veterans, thus completely ignoring new players, I say reward new characters with a growing spurt at the very beginning.  Sure you start out crap with your main skillset. And then you use it once. You see how crappy it is. You buy a length of cloth and ruin the whole thing in the first try. You fail to bandage someone. You fail to parry that spar. You fail to flee from the rat and are stuck duking it out for 10 RL minutes until it finally dies of boredom!

And then - the next day you log in - you try these things again. And you discover you are actually capable of succeeding. You bandage someone badly - but successfully. You parry at least once during the spar. You can turn your cloth into at least one length ends up turning into the set of sleeves you're working on. Your third time trying to flee from the rat, you actually flee.

That initial boost can be enough to tell a player "okay so this is what success looks like, and I know to look for it in the future."  Rather than spending hours and days on end wondering if you'll even recognize it when it happens.

The rest of the progression would be no different than it is now.  It'd still be slow.  Your cap/max wouldn't change. But you'd get that initial boost, the reward for executing the skill shortly after the first time you use it.

Maybe some kind of flag on the character so during the first 2 days played they gain 2x faster.  Or something like that, just tossing out numbers for example purpose.

I'd want it to be the first 2 days in which those skills are used, rather than just the first 2 days.  Some players don't get to use their skills for the first 2 days of play.  Unmanifested mages come to mind for that, in particular. 

But yes something like that.

[creeper386]

I'd want it to be the first 2 days in which those skills are used, rather than just the first 2 days.  Some players don't get to use their skills for the first 2 days of play.  Unmanifested mages come to mind for that, in particular. 

But yes something like that.

I know this is just brainstorming here, but I'd be curious at more thoughts. Would this be "x" number of failures increase faster? Because if it's days played, then potentially someone who is playing off peak may not be able to take the same advantage of it as someone off peak.

[Hestia]

I'd want it to be the first 2 days in which those skills are used, rather than just the first 2 days.  Some players don't get to use their skills for the first 2 days of play.  Unmanifested mages come to mind for that, in particular. 

But yes something like that.

I know this is just brainstorming here, but I'd be curious at more thoughts. Would this be "x" number of failures increase faster? Because if it's days played, then potentially someone who is playing off peak may not be able to take the same advantage of it as someone off peak.

Speaking for myself (Halaster might be thinking some other way) and not really understanding the code of progression:

However you progress in a thing - you would progress, how you normally do, however the code works to provide progression.

But the speed at which that progression occurs would occur 50% faster, for the first two RL days that you use it. Example:

An adventuring exploring type of character whose primary skills are utility rather than combat:  Spends the first RL day - let's call it Tuesday - of his character buying supplies, checking the gossip boards in the taverns, learning syntax if he's new, maybe meeting someone and interacting.  That day is not counted in his progression boost.

Amos doesn't log in at all on Wednesday.  On Thursday, he buys a mount and goes out adventuring near Luir's Outpost.  He learns he needs to have at least one hand free, so he tries riding with a shield in his off-hand.

During this ride, he has a 50% greater chance of getting skillups with riding.

He encounters a patch of ground that looks like it might contain edibles, or branches, or stone, and he decides it'd probably be handy to have a couple of these things.

He will have a 50% greater chance of getting skillups with forage.

He also runs into a little critter, which is hiding, but not very well. He started running his scan skill earlier, so now he will have a 50% greater chance of increasing his scan skill.

This would be a 50% chance of increasing, over and above the chance he would normally get, if this process wasn't implemented.

Amos doesn't log in again until Sunday. He spends that time hanging out in the bar, maybe getting a job.  No progression there.  On Monday he goes out with his new crew, which allows him the chance to try his luck with climbing in relative safety in numbers.  This is his second day of using skills that would progress faster.  And so he has a 50% greater chance of progressing climbing. And a 50% greater chance of boosting bandage when he tries bandaging his new boss, who sucks at climbing and falls every time.

The end of the second day of using skills that -would- progress faster, comes. And that's the end of his new-character skill bump opportunity.

[Night Queen]

Halaster and Hestia's idea sounds good but maybe make it a temporary bonus so it isn't just like kind of a power-levelling bonus for the first few days (I think that'd probably be a bit too heavily used by more experienced players) maybe instead..
- after the first real life day (not 24 hours logged in but the first actual real day they logged in) if they've failed something at least three times...
- The next time they login the newbie boost activates on those things and gives a few times extra a much higher chance of success (but not infinite, and not guaranteed so it's not god-mode and time to go on a crazy run that normally wouldn't survive etc, depending on what skills they were, maybe not apply to combat skills or other conflict/criminal-related stuff)
- After the teaser successes make the skills go back to what they would have been (no actual increase in skills, just increase in successes), the skill boost was hidden so people don't feel they had something that got taken away, it was subtly done to encourage, but without totally removing the newbie period of learning and making everything too easy (a new character having that early struggle is something that makes it more interesting)

[Maso]

If you boosted gains for the first couple of days.. most players would just zone in on trying to maximise combat fails for those first couple of days.. and probably get frustrated if they didn't find anyone to spar with, suicide and roll another character to get another shot at min/maxing their head start.

It could also widen the gap between peak and off-peak players in this respect, since peak would get 2x on that sweet combat for the first couple of days while off-peak would like still get nil point if they couldn't find anyone to twink with.

[Jihelu]

Honestly I already notice some people spend the first X days of their character grinding up then bothering to RP after, so I really don't see an issue of 'Everyone who makes a new character will just grind and not RP'

[X-D]

Yes to that point...But not so sure it is all about grinding in the beginning. I mean it is But only so you CAN survive. For me, that first 24 hours of play tends to be low on interaction with other PCs because I need to replace that starting coin and get the more important survival skills to some sort of usefulness.

Many of you need to change "RP" To "interact".   Somebody working to get the PC stable is in fact Role playing, Even if they do not interact with other PCs.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'd want it to be the first 2 days in which those skills are used, rather than just the first 2 days.  Some players don't get to use their skills for the first 2 days of play.  Unmanifested mages come to mind for that, in particular. 

But yes something like that.

Just do it based on the current skill level. That corresponds closely to "first 2 days in which those skills are used", but it doesn't require storing any additional state. And TBH it accommodates a wider range of players.

Like, e.g.,
   gain_skill(ch, slot, amount) {
     if (current skill < apprentice)
       amount *= 2;
     if (current skill < journeyman)
       amount += 1;
     /* blah blah blah do stuff */
   }

Double-speed gainz from novice; increased gainz up to journeyman. You maintain the dynamic of fail = gain, so it's a very incremental change.

[Greve]

Yeah, it should definitely be tied to skill level and not time elapsed. You don't want to create a situation where new characters are encouraged to log in, quickly check if there's an opportunity to raise skills, and then log out if not because the player doesn't want to waste their 48 hour boost waiting for someone else to show up for sparring or for stilt lizards to respawn. Simply make skills go up faster if they're below a certain threshold.

I'm not real keen on offline gains and things like that. It shouldn't be necessary. It's much healthier for the game if skills need to be used in order to increase them, and that's best solved by making them go up faster and more smoothly. Change the fact that some skills require increasingly bizarre activities to increase them. Increase the chance to gain in the skills that aren't guaranteed to go up on each failure. Make more skills go up by multiple points at a time like some already do. Maybe even make some skills less terrible at lower levels--foraging for anything specific with less than advanced forage feels borderline impossible, for instance. It seems more effective to just forage rocks until you happen to find jasper than to 'forage rocks for jasper.'

Aside from the early stages of a character's life where it feels important to just get to the point where you're no longer utterly incompetent, the grind also has some long-term problems. With some skills, it doesn't take a whole lot to get to the point where you feel stuck if you don't go to bizarre, twinky lengths to generate failures. Sometimes it can happen even at journeyman. The constant obstacles and fail-chasing is an annoying and unsightly part of the game, but due to the way skillgains work, it's pretty much necessary. It's probably a bigger change than what's on the table right now, but some day I'd like to see a shift away from the way you can only learn by failing. In real life, you very much can learn by doing it right. I don't think I've ever failed to change a tire, but I'm certainly much better at it now than I was when I got my first car.

With a smaller chance to gain on success, and with parameters similar to the way you currently can't gain combat skills against someone who's way less skilled than you, I think most skills could be given that treatment. It worked more or less that way on the games that ran the RPI-Engine codebase and it allowed characters to progress in a much more natural and realistic manner. The way it is now, those who are able and willing to do silly things will max out most of their skills while those who aim to play "the right way" often won't. That just doesn't seem reasonable. The code rewards doing things we're not supposed to do, and doesn't do enough to reward responsible play. While you probably can't completely eliminate twinkery, you can change the fact that it's almost required if one wants to get certain skills to a level where they're really interesting.

[Bogre]

I don't really believe in stuff like gain commands and ready-made skilled characters. I don't think that can ever be an ideal solution to the issue. Most of the skills that are problematic can be made less so with changes to the way they increase. If you take a normal everyday skill like sneak/hide or forage or any crafting skill that isn't gated behind material scarcity, anyone playing a character that uses these with any real regularity can generally max them out (or at least raise them to a satisfyingly useful level) in 3-4 days of playtime, and that timeframe seems very reasonable. The only real problem is with the combat skills.

Two changes that would eliminate nearly all issues with the grind:

1) Sparring NPCs in military clans. With player numbers what they are, this has simply become necessary. In order for a game of this scope to function at all, you cannot gate combat training exclusively behind PC-to-PC interaction, and characters in military clans are usually prohibited from dicking around alone in the wilderness to hack away at animals and bandits. Sparring NPCs would solve so many problems, and it's not some kind of unexplored concept that could introduce a bunch of new issues--other RPIs have done this before and it worked out great, with a few simple rules like "don't ignore other players in the room so you can spar the NPC" and "don't fucking backstab him." This also makes these clans way more attractive. A sparring NPC doesn't need to take you to <master> but it should provide the kind of training that at least matches what you can get from just hunting medium-risk animals or getting scummy in the 'rinth.


At the end of the day, the issue with the grind is that so much of your time is wasted. It's wasted standing alone in the sparring hall day after day, or it's wasted hunting for hours at a time without learning anything whatsoever. Whenever you actually can get effective training, your skills go up just fine. The problem is that effective training is this bizarre unicorn you hope to find one day, and until you do, most of your time is pissed away on a futile attempt to eke out a little bit of progress. This is why a one-time skill bump is no solution, nor do offline gains change the fact that there's little feeling of progression when actually playing the game. It feels like shit to spend so much time on something you know was pointless.

I think Greve yet again hits the nail on the head.

I enjoy steady progress, and achieving character skills and getting better is enjoyable. Grinding skills is a reason to play, it gets characters together and involved with each other. Players (and characters) should be rewarded for putting in effort. You don't want everyone to be maxed with no effort, or make the grind so trivial that there's no sense of accomplishment or power spread.

But again - combat skills feel so terrible. I hate having to worry about whether or not whatever I do in real or sparring combat is going to hamstring my character later down the road....(oh no, if I increase my offense too quick I'll never increase my weapon skills!"). Or how training exclusively with swords will make it 50x harder to train axes later on. Worrying about training 'badly' is one of the biggest fun-drains in the game for me.

The clan sparring NPCs do seem to mitigate that (though this doesn't resolve the situation for independents). I actually saw progress, it wasn't super fast but it felt like progression. And I think that's the key issue- its not a length of progression that is daunting. Players will log in and keep working to achieve the progression goals if they have a path to it, even if it requires some dedication. The thing people hate, I think, is spinning their wheels with no chance of reward.

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As an aside, I think that being able to start at 'private' level or whatever in some clans would be worthwhile, with reasonable starting abilities.

[Veselka]

Definitely not an aside. If I could start as Trooper/Private every other PC I would.

[Alesan]

This is a good discussion to have. There's one thing I want to point out.

Maybe even make some skills less terrible at lower levels--foraging for anything specific with less than advanced forage feels borderline impossible, for instance. It seems more effective to just forage rocks until you happen to find jasper than to 'forage rocks for jasper.'

Regarding this, I was under the impression that skill has nothing to do with the success of specific foraging. The mechanic simply auto-junks whatever you aren't foraging for. Which seems... counter-intuitive.

[Tranquil]

Definitely not an aside. If I could start as Trooper/Private every other PC I would.

This would be great. I want to play in clans, but I don't want to wait a month before my character can even be a 'true' part of it.

Maybe a role application, much like tribals have.

[Halcyon]

Do not add new classes, use current ones.
Introduce a command like "gain" to be used only within first 3 hours of gameplay, like reroll
It reduces a player's cap by X amount, and adds that to skill level.

command gain:
gain hunt 10
gain piercing weapons 20
gain shield use 10
gain armormaking 30
etc.

If your hunt cap is 80, and starting at 20. After using gain hunt 10
Your skill will go up to 30 and cap reduced to 70.
Cannot be rerolled or taken back, new cap is permanent.

Instead of reducing cap, how about a balancing skill gain debt?
If you add on 10 slashing, your character would then have a debt of 15 or 20 points they would have to earn off before their slashing could rise again?