Focus point pool - Discussion Thread

[mansa]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57236.0.html

Coming soon:  A new stat point pool called Focus is being introduced that will be the point pool for all psionics for everyone.  It will be primarily influenced by wisdom, so races with low wisdom may have a little bit harder time using the Way.  Stun will remain unchanged otherwise.  We are announcing this before the change so those of you who have customized mud clients can be prepared beforehand.

I have a few questions:

Q - What's the intent of moving 'psionics' away from 'stun' and into a new stat?
Q - Can you be knocked out if your focus gets to zero?
Q - Can other things affect your focus, besides psionics?

[Halaster]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57236.0.html

I have a few questions:

Q - What's the intent of moving 'psionics' away from 'stun' and into a new stat?
Q - Can you be knocked out if your focus gets to zero?
Q - Can other things affect your focus, besides psionics?

1.  Originally stun was meant to be for psionics, but over time stun has been kind of usurped for a lot of combat and other skills.  But we decided we don't like those things sharing the same pool, and would rather see them not (directly) effect each other.
2.  We're still working out the kinks of what to do when it hits 0, I'll talk more about it as we get closer to release
3.  Unlikely since focus is meant to be for psionics only.  But that's not set in stone.

[mansa]

That's pretty cool.
It feels the change will be that using the way isn't as stressful on the body as it currently is now..  kinda like how using mana isn't as stressful on the body when you cast a spell.
(You don't get /movement point tired/ when you cast a spell, and you don't get /stun point tired/ when you cast a spell, but your /mana gets tired/)

Q - Will the use of contact, psi message, barrier, expel, and the 'occasional way usage' ticks that we currently have be the same values as it is today?  (example - it costs 10 stun to contact someone, and 10 stun to send a message, and the occasional stun ticks for being connected are for 10)

[Jihelu]

I'd like to see certain spices adding to your psionic points, or perhaps having your wisdom raise in general would raise your psionic points?

Perhaps having 0 focus points could apply a debuff and not just knock you out?

Could even be an IC name for the condition, 'Way fatigue' or some shit, best cured by: Sleep, drinking tea, copious amounts of spice, not using the way for a bit dumb dumb.

[Halaster]

Q - Will the use of contact, psi message, barrier, expel, and the 'occasional way usage' ticks that we currently have be the same values as it is today?  (example - it costs 10 stun to contact someone, and 10 stun to send a message, and the occasional stun ticks for being connected are for 10)

Yep, most probably definitely.   I don't see a reason why that needs to change, as the focus pool is going to be in the same ballpark as mana is.

The question not yet asked is:  does this mean half-giants are going to have a hard time with the Way?   Yes, they are going to find it more difficult.  However, if it gets too difficult for them, we will adjust.  After all, the original real purpose of contact/psi specifically was to emulate the 'tell' command from traditional DIKU and keep it IC.  We don't want to totally remove that from HG's, but since it's a wisdom-based thing they will struggle with it a bit more than other races.

[X-D]

Um...So, is it a stat or is it a point pool?

I mean it seems rather odd to have a stat influenced by another stat while, to my knowledge no others are.

[Halaster]

Um...So, is it a stat or is it a point pool?

It's a point pool like mana or stun.  I probably shouldn't have called it a stat in retrospect.

[X-D]

Cool, so far seems like a good idea then.

[Patuk]

Sure I guess, why not. Waying people while playing elves should feel a lot better then

[JustAnotherGuy]

After reading the answers above, I like this idea a lot.  I also like the idea if you get hit to zero, you get a debuff put on you.  Maybe the debuff could make it so that doing physical things are tougher, or maybe uses more movement points, you cannot carry as much, because your mind is fatigued.  Way Fatigue or Mind Drain, or whatever.  Stun makes sense to knock someone out at zero, Health at zero incapacitated, bleed out and then death, movement at zero and you cannot moved.

I would also look at rebalancing stun also as there are certain things right now that makes stun easier to abuse, in my opinion.

[slipshod]

Current helpfiles for 'focus' talk about "change objective" and dwarven RP. 

What character will be used to pulled focus values into the prompt?

[Dar]

Love the idea. It actually allows mindworms use some of their abilities in power without making themselves lose consciousness in a single poke.

The ol' trick of engaging someone in a psi conversation until they get tired and then sapping their last remaining stun points won't be useable anymore, but no big loss.

It will (I hope) also diminish use of the way, as the price for psi convos can now increase without causing people to die in silly ways.

[Malken]

Damn, I thought this was going to be about offline skill training.

[Veselka]

Question 1: What was the impetus for changing this, and what is the intended result?

Question 2: What environmental issues will affect 'focus'? Meaning, will fighting a creature reduce your overall focus points? Will having multiple psionic effects up reduce your overall pool of focus points?

Question 3: Will Listen/Scan still reduce from stun, or from focus points?

Question 4: Will certain poisons / environmental stimuli affect focus over stun?

[Greve]

This sounds like a good idea. Stun has always been a bit of an elephant in the room, mainly because bludgeoning weapons are so grotesquely unbalanced that tying the resource to anything else is problematic. I would rather have seen that addressed in other ways, but that's a different discussion.

As far as psionics themselves, they've mostly been a non-issue for mundanes ever since the starting level of contact was raised to master. Leadership roles are the only ones who really seem like it's ever a concern. It was hellish back in the day when you started at novice or whatever (this may even have been before visible skill levels), but with the change to start at master, I've always been comfortable with the cost of Waying. The only issue was that it put you at greater risk of being knocked unconscious if you took actual stun damage, and this sounds like it addresses that.

I have no idea how this might affect actual psionicists, but then again I haven't heard anyone so much as mention the name of that class since the big revamp (i.e. nerf) of it. Every psionicist I could possibly name was from before that, so I suspect it won't have much of an impact in that regard.

The only issue I've had with psionics is that you can have a barrier up indefinitely. The maintenance cost is effectively nothing since you're not Waying with a barrier up and the base regeneration effortlessly nullifies the few points you lose on ticks. I always felt that maintaining a barrier should cost a real amount of stun (now focus, I guess) instead of three points every couple of minutes or whatever. It should be something you use strategically, not something you can just keep up for as long as you want, at least as a mundane. Permanent barrier could be a psionicist perk. For mundanes, half an in-game day should be the general limit and then you'll have spent your focus. In my opinion.

[Halaster]

Question 1: What was the impetus for changing this, and what is the intended result?

Question 2: What environmental issues will affect 'focus'? Meaning, will fighting a creature reduce your overall focus points? Will having multiple psionic effects up reduce your overall pool of focus points?

Question 3: Will Listen/Scan still reduce from stun, or from focus points?

Question 4: Will certain poisons / environmental stimuli affect focus over stun?

1.  Originally stun was meant to be for psionics, but over time stun has been kind of usurped for a lot of combat and other skills.  But we decided we don't like those things sharing the same pool, and would rather see them not (directly) effect each other.  The goal is to not have psionics and combat-related affects share the same pool.

2. Fighting will not affect your max focus points.  Multiple psi affects will.  Focus is determined by wisdom, so a high wisdom will have the greatest impact on the focus points.  It will be in the same ballpark as mana.

3. Everything besides psionics that currently use the stun pool will continue to do so.  So scan, listen, etc. will keep using stun.  Contact/barrier, etc will use focus. 

Also, things that currently affect your ability to use the Way will continue to do so.  If something modifies your ability to use the Way and it has a direct impact on points, that will be changed to focus from stun.

4. Eventually some things will be able to enhance or detract from focus, yes. Separating this out from stun does give us the option to have things affect your ability to use the Way while not directly affecting your combat/perception abilities (i.e. manipulate the focus pool while leaving stun alone).   That gives us more flexibility and yes we'll be making use of that new functionality down the road.

[Veselka]

*thumbs up*

[triste]

I like the change somewhat, but it removes the tactical advantage sap previously had. Know someone is making out on the Way? Sap 'em! I'll miss that.

Easily fixed by making sap drain Focus as well, and having 0 Focus result in fainting. Apologies if this case was already addressed, but please address it if it hasn't!

[Halaster]

Easily fixed by making sap drain Focus as well, and having 0 Focus result in fainting. Apologies if this case was already addressed, but please address it if it hasn't!

No.  That's what stun is for, getting KO'd by things like sap. 

[triste]

Alright thanks for addressing my question.

One less Achilles Heel for me!

[mansa]

My suggestion regarding if 'focus points go to zero'.

I don't want my character to enter a state where I have no agency over them, like when you are knocked out.  I would like to have a brief debuff that prevents usage of psionic abilities only after my focus points have reached their full capacity again, or perhaps after they've reached 75% of max.

I would not want the psionic abilities to be prevented for longer than 10 minutes Real-Life.  If you regard the current state of STUN reaching ZERO, you may be 'knocked out' for longer than 10 minutes real life, and that isn't fun gameplay.


::EDIT::
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57236.msg1066662.html#msg1066662

We all know and love the 'feature' of random people passing out in taverns from overuse of the Way.  While specifically being knocked out is a consequence of stun loss, we wanted to have something similar with focus.  As a result of reaching 0 focus you will become effectively dumbstruck.  You will still be awake and able to hear and see the world around you, but your mind will be reeling and scattered so you will be unable to do anything.  It's similar to being paralyzed, and the timeframe is the same as being knocked out from stun loss.  While this is slightly less harsh than knock out, there is currently no known remedy to bring someone out of their stupor early.

Hmmmm..

Is there any way to enforce that the debuff timer does not extend longer than 10 minutes in real life?   Because being paralyzed and your character being prevented from doing /anything/ for more than 5 minutes is definitely UNFUN.

[lostinspace]

Hitting 0 focus sounds horrible. If this works primarily as point pool for psionic abilities does it really need such a harsh disadvantage? Does it last as long as the knockout from hitting 0 stun?

Will mages have a similar disadvantage added for when their point pool spent on mage abilities hits 0?

[Patuk]

Hitting 0 focus sounds horrible. If this works primarily as point pool for psionic abilities does it really need such a harsh disadvantage? Does it last as long as the knockout from hitting 0 stun?

Will mages have a similar disadvantage added for when their point pool spent on mage abilities hits 0?

It's.. Literally the same as hitting 0 stun is. If nothing else, it's more lenient - you can still see and hear, and hitting 0 is going to happen less, because you won't just have the one pool now.

I get where you're all coming from but this measure will literally make an old problem better, so I think it's just gonna be good.

[Brytta Léofa]

This all sounds good. I'm actually pretty chuffed that there's now an IC explanation for being linkdead.

Is there any way to enforce that the debuff timer does not extend longer than 10 minutes in real life?   Because being paralyzed and your character being prevented from doing /anything/ for more than 5 minutes is definitely UNFUN.

+1. Can we reduce the stunned/dumbfounded time from 10 minutes to maybe 3-5? Still long enough to be scary/deadly, not so long that it's hard to stay engaged.

[Dresan]

This sounds like a good idea.