population hubs

[650Booger]

just a little thinking out loud, here.
The primary population hub for this game is allanak.  secondary hubs are luir's and red-storm.  tertiary are Morin's and other small camps (FOIC)
but that is not how the playerbase divides itself.  allanak is severely underpopulated atm (in my opinion) while the secondary and tertiary hubs are over-represented.  I'm sure this conversation has been had many times before, but I'm curious why you all think that is?

[Malken]

Freedom, or at least the perceived notion of it.

[Lotion]

I really can't stand Allanak because it feels like at least half the time RPing with highborn consists mostly of enduring emotional abuse. Wilderness Survival RP is great because you're always in some kind of vague danger which creates very few dull moments and when you run into someone chances are you're both about to have a cool scene.

[Lotion]

Freedom, or at least the perceived notion of it.

Playing in Red Storm means freedom from PC law enforcement. Sometimes when you lose like three toons in a row to cells it's just time to blow back, hard.

[DesertT]

Freedom, or at least the perceived notion of it.

Playing in Red Storm means freedom from PC law enforcement. Sometimes when you lose like three toons in a row to cells it's just time to blow back, hard.

This, 100%

[Kyviantre]

I left Allanak because I didn't want to play with the same characters again - distance and time allow for a refresh of some of the longer-lived characters.  Allanak (southside at least), tends to create either characters-in-power that live a long time, or characters-without-power who flow through very quickly.  Which isn't really the case elsewhere, the 'little guy' can live longer outside of Allanak, so it doesn't feel so much like 'same overlord, revolving door of minions' that Nak can have.

Or at least, that is my perceived issue.  I don't mind that people die, and I like playing long-lived characters most.  But it is the inequality between untouchable-never-dies and commoner-dying-too-soon that gets dull after a while - elsewhere, people are less untouchable, and the rotation of deaths seems to be a more scattershot hit that can take anyone out.

But equally, having played in X location for a while, I'm eager to leave here and play elsewhere next.  Which is almost certainly going to be Allanak.  I figure the untouchable-never-dies might have rotated a bit and be different from the last time I played there, or at least my interactions with the role I have in mind will be very different.  So...the high death risk fatigue is lessened.  Good word that...fatigue.

[Ender]

I genuinely think the lack of a centralized population location that acts as a true foil to Allanak is really hurting the game in a real way.  When Tuluk was open it was a centralized place you could play a character that was entirely separate from Allanak which was a refreshing change of scenery that allowed for better cycling of the player base. 

Tuluk had its own problems, but I think the addition by subtraction of closing it simply did not work in properly consolidating the player base.  It had the opposite affect of spreading the player base even thinner when they wanted the option to play away from Allanak and created massive stagnation in Allanak itself with the power structures no longer having an enemy that was an equal to allow for easy and realistic creation of long term conflicts.

And I tend to agree without some sort of unifying outside threat, the conflict turns in on itself.  And it does become a really unfun game of emotional abuse that I've grown to enjoy far less than I did back in my 20's.

[Obeliskocism]

I genuinely think the lack of a centralized population location that acts as a true foil to Allanak is really hurting the game in a real way.  When Tuluk was open it was a centralized place you could play a character that was entirely separate from Allanak which was a refreshing change of scenery that allowed for better cycling of the player base. 

Tuluk had its own problems, but I think the addition by subtraction of closing it simply did not work in properly consolidating the player base.  It had the opposite affect of spreading the player base even thinner when they wanted the option to play away from Allanak and created massive stagnation in Allanak itself with the power structures no longer having an enemy that was an equal to allow for easy and realistic creation of long term conflicts.

And I tend to agree without some sort of unifying outside threat, the conflict turns in on itself.  And it does become a really unfun game of emotional abuse that I've grown to enjoy far less than I did back in my 20's.

I totally agree with this, and said pretty much the same thing a while ago in the Allanak Problem thread.

As I see it, we have an imbalance of power problem that is stifling meaningful conflict with Allanak.
I see two possible corrections to level the playing field:  either introduce a new enemy on par with Allanak's power, or nerf Allanak's power to put them on par with existing threats.

For the first option we'd need something like Tuluk reopened or some Big Baddie^TM clan with staff support.

For the second option, I could imagine a scenario where Tektolnes gets really upset with his minions and decides to strip all Blue Robes of their magick, or maybe limit them to one spell each.  Now the Templar PCs are just rich warriors who have to martial groups of other PCs to contend with their enemies.  We'd still have the Red and Black Robes with "real power" to keep the city intact against virtual threats.

Unless and until we address this fundamental issue, we'll continue to languish in Vestric space stations that were designed to sit in the Langrange points of a binary star system, but one of the stars is absent.

[valeria]

I'm curious why you all think that is?

Why it is, personally, for me, is that I don't like playing around characters that I've recently played around.  Until I've forgotten their quirks and what makes them tick, I'm always worried I'm going to slip up and confuse what my current character knows with what a former character knew.  This usually meant I'd rotate Allanak/Tuluk with a couple minor detours, except then I played closely with a noble in Tuluk and couldn't really play in Tuluk for years because that guy stayed around and influential and I just knew too much.

Having all these extra little hubs more populated is actually more fun, for me.  It means I can play in Allanak, play in Red Storm, pop into the Rinth, play in Luir's, and still have a bunch of different folks to play with and new people to get to know.  Instead of playing in Red Storm because I can't really play anywhere else, but then desperately waiting at the bar for that one person to show up so I can have some interaction.

[Barsook]

Agreed on the extra hubs. I think we are finally are getting the spread that some wanted. Trade flows better too.

[Shaydee]

I tend to rotate with each character, no matter the length played- this doesn't always allow enough time to pass though. Ideally, I like to do that because it gets me out of where I was before, especially if it was a character that lasted a bit. And it gets me in other areas of the world, and interacting with new people. Maybe I still have a quirk or two that I used a lot with my old character and accidentally do it without thinking, nobody in the new area would recognize it (Hopefully) and I can correct myself. But mostly I like switching up the area, the setting.

I do try not to play in Allanak/Luirs/Red Storm immediately after playing there, but if my next couple characters in the rotation don't make it for whatever reason - I just keep the rotation going. Although thinking about amending that to be able to have a chance to play in the different areas more.

In direct relation - I actually really like playing in each area, I can always find some interaction of some sort and if for some reason I don't want interaction there is plenty that can be done that way too. Do I have a preference sure, but I actually don't get to play there a lot - luck of the roll I guess.

[650Booger]

great responses folks, thank you!

[Malken]

Now tell me more on how I can play only in Morin's and never leave the north (as it should be).

[Maso]

Now tell me more on how I can play only in Morin's and never leave the north (as it should be).

Roll a character in Morin's and don't die! Also, if you're playing then  .

[Inks]

Templars are far easier to kill than godpowered sorcs it is just barely anyone tries to do it. I feel like the Nak population is alright but most of the PCs are clanned up. It comes and goes in cycles. I often play more non-nakki antagonistic roles (rogues, raiders, celves, dwarves with unusual foci) but I have noticed it comes and goes in cycles as it always has done. Storm was very dead for a while recently, then busy, then not and so on, same with Morins etc. Luirs is always a hub because it is the tribal mudsex capital of Zalanthas and not many people can detect magick up there. I really haven't noticed anything unusual other than of course the expected influx which comes with a full clan rolecall in that area, of course! A lot of you vets will agree with me about the cycles of population I think.

Couple months or less ago the Gaj was always packed. So I am unsure what time period you are basing this on. It comes and goes as players try something new when a PC dies. If you look back in the older topics you will see this topic and the one that too many of the players are in Nak over and over again.

Cycles.

[Maso]

Templars are far easier to kill than godpowered sorcs it is just barely anyone tries to do it. I feel like the Nak population is alright but most of the PCs are clanned up. It comes and goes in cycles. I often play more non-nakki antagonistic roles (rogues, raiders, celves, dwarves with unusual foci) but I have noticed it comes and goes in cycles as it always has done. Storm was very dead for a while recently, then busy, then not and so on, same with Morins etc. Luirs is always a hub because it is the tribal mudsex capital of Zalanthas and not many people can detect magick up there. I really haven't noticed anything unusual other than of course the expected influx which comes with a full clan rolecall in that area, of course! A lot of you vets will agree with me about the cycles of population I think.

Couple months or less ago the Gaj was always packed. So I am unsure what time period you are basing this on. It comes and goes as players try something new when a PC dies. If you look back in the older topics you will see this topic and the one that too many of the players are in Nak over and over again.

Cycles.

Add to this that there are certain clans where the key players move around...and lately they all seem to move around together. I imagine this can have quite a dramatic effect on how populated a particular location is at any given time.

[Fernandezj]

A lot of this is rehashing of the Allanak problem, but additionally, if there are limited players around, people tend to trend more towards collaboration than antagonism (if there's 3 people playing you will generally want them as allies as opposed to enemies).

Allanak is supposed to be like a murder, corruption, betrayal hub, but none of that is happening from the top down, so its a big chunk of its allure gone from the get go.

For Allanak to draw players back:
1. Need more antagonism to collaborate against. This seems to be the intent of creating a Labyrinth clan. But this will likely backfire in the short-run because they will have the same problems (no one to murder or steal from). Or you will have this group of 4, clearly rinther elves, roving around taking advantage of the few schmucks here and there just trying to join the Byn.

2. Clans need to actually interact with each other (This is on the leaders to find meaningful ways to get their clans to interact).

3. Byn should have a player cap (its a fun clan, but when its sometimes 75% of the PCs on at at given time period, it can be a detraction). Even with articulated documentation to go out and interact, players don't (often times just idling in their compound or apartments), and there doesn't seem to be a push by the staff to change that.

4. (this is the biggest one) It needs to be harder to succeed independently. Driving people into clans, and thereby increasing interactions between clans, can only be successful if the "harsh desert world" is actually a harsh desert world. The allure of a clan on the surface seems to be: food, water, shelter, and pay to allow you to then focus on character development. Bu there is no looming risk of starvation or dehydration, so it removes the impetus to seek out a clan. And the economy is very broken so sometimes you have to take a pay-cut to join a house/clan. This could be off-set by 1) and 2). But it isn't presently.

[Riev]

3. Byn should have a player cap (its a fun clan, but when its sometimes 75% of the PCs on at at given time period, it can be a detraction). Even with articulated documentation to go out and interact, players don't (often times just idling in their compound or apartments), and there doesn't seem to be a push by the staff to change that.

I remember it used to be direct in the documentation that if you see people sitting idle through the night, or logging off to avoid chores, to directly email Tlaloc and he'd 'take care of it' because such was the care about the roleplay going on.

I feel in a lot of clans, this is missing. Whether its to go mudsex behind closed doors (because who wants to publically do that anyway), or whether its "But I want higher skills", there seems to be a lack of meaningful bar-hopping or socializing.

I swear, if I get "OOC AFK-Ish" one more time.... considering that tells me "I'm here, but I don't want to roleplay with YOU", I'm gonna scream.

[Malken]

'OOC AFK-Ish' is the reality of playing a game in 2021. Live with it.

I OOC AFK-Ish pretty much everything in my life.

[LindseyBalboa]

One thing I believe is that the GMHs all having stake in Luir's has resulted in the GMH agents spending more time there - where they can play noble without templars breathing down their necks. Not blaming them or anything or complaining.

GMH agents staying in Luir's means people that work for them will stay up there, people that deal with them will spend more time up there, etc.

This is just my observation over the course of a few characters.

(Edited to clarify subject is Greater Merchant Houses)

[Lotion]

4. (this is the biggest one) It needs to be harder to succeed independently. Driving people into clans, and thereby increasing interactions between clans, can only be successful if the "harsh desert world" is actually a harsh desert world. The allure of a clan on the surface seems to be: food, water, shelter, and pay to allow you to then focus on character development. Bu there is no looming risk of starvation or dehydration, so it removes the impetus to seek out a clan. And the economy is very broken so sometimes you have to take a pay-cut to join a house/clan. This could be off-set by 1) and 2). But it isn't presently.

Imo this is actually a really bad point. Clanned play should be optional and if I was forced to play in clans all the time it would be hellish because I'd either have to find a clan with the vibe I want from that clan or start pking everyone in my clan until it hits the right vibe. Independents should be a viable thing to be and it's not as piss easy to obtain water with reasonable means if you actually rp someone who doesn't know about all the water caves and is afraid to go into the Tablelands and drink from the Gem. Yeah, there are ways to get water for free but they require a lot of effort for non established characters and for established characters there should be bigger problems to worry about. This isn't actually a problem and lets cool indies do their own thing.

[Maso]

One thing I believe is that the MMHs all having stake in Luir's has resulted in the MMH agents spending more time there - where they can play noble without templars breathing down their necks. Not blaming them or anything or complaining.

MMH agents staying in Luir's means people that work for them will stay up there, people that deal with them will spend more time up there, etc.

This is just my observation over the course of a few characters.

THIS.

[Barsook]

Have we gotten anyone at the MMH level yet?

[Maso]

I assume that was some kind of repeated typo....

[valeria]

I'm pretty sure that "MMH" was supposed to mean major merchant house (Kadius/Kurac/Salarr)

Edit to add:
Yes, this is conventionally GMH (greater merchant house), I was just pointing out what I thought the player meant.

[Barsook]

Minor is the "M". GMH is used for the four "great" ones.

[Riev]

Minor is the "M". GMH is used for the four "great" ones.

This is correct. Player Clans were supposed to eventually become Minor Merchant Houses.

The closest to MMHs has been Darkmoon Trading Company (well before the rules were even set up) and Joybane Trading company, which wasn't a PC clan in the first place.

I can think of a few PC Clans that got to the Warehouse stage, and even getting an NPC set up, but nothing to the level of MMH.

[LindseyBalboa]

Yeah I meant GMH, was thinking "Major Merchant House" in my head.

[Veselka]

Minor is the "M". GMH is used for the four "great" ones.

This is correct. Player Clans were supposed to eventually become Minor Merchant Houses.

The closest to MMHs has been Darkmoon Trading Company (well before the rules were even set up) and Joybane Trading company, which wasn't a PC clan in the first place.

I can think of a few PC Clans that got to the Warehouse stage, and even getting an NPC set up, but nothing to the level of MMH.

FOIC, there are other examples that have gotten further.

[Narf]

Minor is the "M". GMH is used for the four "great" ones.

This is correct. Player Clans were supposed to eventually become Minor Merchant Houses.

The closest to MMHs has been Darkmoon Trading Company (well before the rules were even set up) and Joybane Trading company, which wasn't a PC clan in the first place.

I can think of a few PC Clans that got to the Warehouse stage, and even getting an NPC set up, but nothing to the level of MMH.

FOIC, there are other examples that have gotten further.

Further than Darkmoon? I don't think so. They made it to level 4 of 5, and we were told that no one's made it to level 5 yet a few months back. That said, I think there's been quite a few level 4's, including some still active.

[Malken]

Where is that list of levels and their requirements again?

[Narf]

An overview can be found here: http://armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

To get more details on each level there's a link at the top of that page for each individual stage.

[Malken]

Thanks!

[Fernandezj]

Thats confusing that both major and minor houses use the same acronym.

[SilkyBoi]

I thought it was:

GMH = great merchant house(s)
MMH = minor merchant house(s)

Oops someone already said this.

[Blink]

Thats confusing that both major and minor houses use the same acronym.

They don't.  It's MMH and GMH (Great Merchant House).

[Malken]

From the Stage 5 helpfile:

Your clan will be added to the Minor Merchant Houses helpfile. This will list other virtual and NPC minor houses or equivalents.

I guess the fact that there's no Minor Merchant Houses helpfile means that no one ever reached level 5?

[Riev]

I guess the fact that there's no Minor Merchant Houses helpfile means that no one ever reached level 5?

Code Select Expand

Merchant Houses                                                       (Clans)

   The Merchant Houses of Zalanthas are ancient entities, many dating back
a thousand years. By the Thirteenth Age, many of these clans had formed
collective agreements with each other and had begun to band together in
loosely organized Merchant Houses. Notable names among the families during
this period were Kurac, Nenyuk, and Kadius. Salarr was the last of the
Great Merchant Houses to establish an emporium and did so in Allanak in the
year 1173.

Great Merchant Houses:

     House Kadius               House Kurac             House Nenyuk
     House Salarr

Lesser Merchant Houses:
   While the concept of a Merchant House generally brings about images of
the four Great Merchant Houses, there are other organizations that fit this
classification as well. Known as Lesser or Minor Merchant Houses these small Merchant groups usually operate in only one city location.  Though not as flush with wealth, they have still
secured a place for themselves within the Zalanthan economy, although this
place is less secure.

     House Delann               House Deuring           House Rauch
     House Aldebaar             House Codrek            House Leramir
     House Terash               House Kulon             House Folatra
     House Corman               House Jurrix


[SilkyBoi]

If no one had reached level 5, then it is too hard to reach 5.

[mansa]

If no one had reached level 5, then it is too hard to reach 5.

As currently designed, the player created clan structure works like this:

Phase 1:   "Get an IDEA and start to go after it."
Talk to the political structures around the area.  Bribe people.  Start talking to regular characters.  Make your presence known.   Create a request in the Request Tool.
Do this for a minimum of an in-game year, or 6 weeks real life.  (~43 RL days) and then ...


Phase 2:   "Get a lair/warehouse/hideout"
Talk to the political structures around the area.  Bribe people.  Land ownership should be taken into consideration.    Create a request in the Request Tool.
Get a structure with a lockable door and a key.  This is the time to specialize into your particular gang/corporation/armor styles
Do this for a minimum of 2 in-game years, or 12 weeks real life.  (~83 RL days) and then ...

Phase 3:   "Add NPCs to your group!"
You should be speaking with the Player Created Clans staff at least one a month at this point, talking about various adventures of your group, and the key items you want to accomplish with it.
Talk to the political structures around the area.  Bribe people.  Land ownership should be taken into consideration.    Create a request in the Request Tool.
Get 2 NPCs that can be a guard / merchant / hawker.
Do this for a minimum of 5 in-game years, or 30 weeks real life.  (~215 RL days) and then ...



Phase 4:  "Clan tags and clan ranks"
At this point, it's been a full year since starting the player created clan process.

The clan should have the ability to hire new people to do things that are oriented around 'the corporation' focus.  There should be a 'backup' character in mind that can take over things in case the main character dies off.  The clan should exist if the main character doesn't log in for a month at a time.
It's at this point that the staff should be updating the code to allow a new clan structure to exist.  Coded paymasters, IC rumor board, larger "Lair" area.

Be at this spot for an additional 5 in-game years, or 30 weeks real life.  (~215 RL days) and then you get to Phase 5:  Minor Merchant House



So, what if the player doesn't want to go past Phase 3?  What if they just want to have an NPC merchant, and that's it?

[Latrine Swimmer]

I personally avoid Allanak because of a couple of key people in certain roles who have a tendency to just want to make my characters miserable even when I try my best to work for or be their minion. I'd likely play in Allanak more also if the Nobility was more visible and driving some sort of plots that weren't upgrading a bathroom in their estates behind the scenes or whatever. (Not trying to attack anyone just seems there's little going on in Allanak and it could have more things to involve others)

[chrisdcoulombe]

My last character was in the Aod, and yes its been over a year ago,  so I made a character in a different area.  I'm fine with playing a role in Allanak, but I don't play every character there.   If you pursue your own interests and are successful other players will gravitate toward your character and you will have plenty of interaction even if you are isolated. 

[Veselka]

The 'PC Clan' structure (Stage 1-5) was made so long ago, I wonder if it isn't worth revisting, particularly how much time investment is required to get to stage 3-4, not to mention 5 (seemingly unachieved since inception). Even if a MMH is absorbed after the PC(s) grow tired of pursuing that plotline, it should be far more achievable than it is now. Otherwise, what's the point of even trying?

As far as Allanak goes, well. It seems pretty ghostly at present, but everything goes through shifts. I'm sure it's just a phase.

[williamson]

I think that the "problem" with Allanak is that everyone has a different opinion of how it should be. If you look at Allanak as an OOC playground, it has all the parts to be great. It has areas for politics, criminal enterprise, arts, combat, and merchanting. As an OOC construct, it seems fine to me.

In the past, the game supported multiple noble PCs in Tuluk and Allanak. Perhaps with Tuluk closed, Allanak could have more nobles. If they're more nobles, hopefully there will be more conflict, cooperation, and/or parties?

As for the player based clan system, I think it's working as intended. It seems pretty easy to get to stage 3. It seems possible to make it to stage 4. Stage 5 has some OOC restraints: human only, based in Allanak, pre-approval by staff, and an IC political vote. Accomplishing this should be VERY difficult and you need to create a clan that the staff want to continue to support after your PC is gone. I like the option and I like its scarcity. It's the merchant equivilant of owning a metal weapon. Possible, but very, very rare.

[Riev]

As for the player based clan system, I think it's working as intended. It seems pretty easy to get to stage 3. It seems possible to make it to stage 4. Stage 5 has some OOC restraints: human only, based in Allanak, pre-approval by staff, and an IC political vote. Accomplishing this should be VERY difficult and you need to create a clan that the staff want to continue to support after your PC is gone. I like the option and I like its scarcity. It's the merchant equivilant of owning a metal weapon. Possible, but very, very rare.

While I agree with the rarity, there's something to be said about a system put into place years ago, but has never seen someone even come close to the 'end stage'.

Its gotten "easier" to get to a Stage 3-adjacent area, which is really nice, but historically even that was a nightmare. Even with moons, stars, and PCs aligned, one OOC issue like playtimes or staff attention could stymie your idea.

Add in to the fact that people want risk, and danger, and people doing things that could "get their PCs killed" and a PC Clan documentation that requires a RL year investment lends itself to "safe play".

[Narf]

As for the player based clan system, I think it's working as intended. It seems pretty easy to get to stage 3. It seems possible to make it to stage 4. Stage 5 has some OOC restraints: human only, based in Allanak, pre-approval by staff, and an IC political vote. Accomplishing this should be VERY difficult and you need to create a clan that the staff want to continue to support after your PC is gone. I like the option and I like its scarcity. It's the merchant equivilant of owning a metal weapon. Possible, but very, very rare.

While I agree with the rarity, there's something to be said about a system put into place years ago, but has never seen someone even come close to the 'end stage'.

Its gotten "easier" to get to a Stage 3-adjacent area, which is really nice, but historically even that was a nightmare. Even with moons, stars, and PCs aligned, one OOC issue like playtimes or staff attention could stymie your idea.

Add in to the fact that people want risk, and danger, and people doing things that could "get their PCs killed" and a PC Clan documentation that requires a RL year investment lends itself to "safe play".

One oft-overlooked aspect is that around Rank 3 you can designate an heir to take over should you die. I think more attention needs to be drawn to this as it would greatly increase the ability to complete things as written without staying too safe or worrying about dropping off the face of the earth if they designated people to take over for them when that occurred.

[Crimson]

I get tired of bar hopping hoping to find anyone in Allanak only to see PC after PC enter bar and not give me time to emote something. I almost feel like I have to have an emote ready to spam them to get their attention. So its sometimes just easier to do whatever I can to find my own enjoyment. But the PC loneliness doesn't come without some OOC sadness.

[number13]

In the past, the game supported multiple noble PCs in Tuluk and Allanak.

In the past, we had 60 to 70 players on peak, consistently.

[Riev]

In the past, the game supported multiple noble PCs in Tuluk and Allanak.

In the past, we had 60 to 70 players on peak, consistently.

I think that furthers his point. We have 20% less players on, and the same amount of staffers, so you COULD support more nobles in Allanak. By the numbers.

[JackGibbons]

There is also the chicken and egg problem. Do we have fewer people on because we're not keeping newbies at the same rate, when they start in a ghost town and get bored and stop logging in? Critical mass, etc?

[Alesan]

Players are consistently told that if they just go on and do their own thing, they will naturally attract people to them. But if all of said people are already involved in their own thing, how true is that, really? There's no doubt the right kind of player can attract all kinds of positive (or negative) attention to themselves to create roleplay. But not everyone has that kind of magnetism. Should they? Are we better off if we are only attracting those kinds of people to the game?

[Veselka]

I definitely don't think we need more Nobles. Judging by the lack of role call (Despite opening up all of the Noble Houses), I imagine Staff think similarly. Allanak has just enough "Top Heavy Leadership" IMHO at the moment, and not nearly enough low-level/grunt/red shirt types. If there were even one or two more Nobles, there wouldn't be enough Aides for them, even, TBH.

Plot generation is a very delicate thing, and it requires both leadership creativity for inception, and low-level grunts/doers for activation and completion. Tip the scale too far in either direction, and everything grinds to a halt.

This has been your weekly PSA to Make Allanak Redshirt Again.