The Allanak Problem

[rinthrat]

Aides may only be allowed to be humans, but they work with all kinds. Criminal, gemmed, etc. Aides are the go between them and the nobles.

I always try rotate where I play with each character. I definitely prefer to play in a certain part of the world, but I try not to limit myself to only playing there. Also trying to rotate any clans I might play in, though I definitely know my favorites.

Eh. I play mages and criminals a lot. Interaction with aides has been extremely limited. They tend to congregate in locations (i.e. Red's) where nonhumans, gemmed and rinthis have no access, too.

RP rarely goes beyond brief requests of "Hey, I need poison/spice/my silk underwear back, can you help?", if it happens at all. And even then, most of the time you can't help and it ends there. With more aides, all you really get is a larger portion of the playerbase in an isolated upper class bubble.

[Fredd]

Can someone explain the need for a "strong" foe?

If there were 10 active players in Tuluk that were Allanak's adversaries, having those 10 players in groups like the Crimson Wind seems just as adversarial?  Since the vNPC elements rarely come into play with PC interactions.  The coded power seems roughly the same, if the groups have members/contacts with non-mundanes not aligned with Allanak?

So, other than just wanting Tuluk back, what really is the need for a "strong" foe with virtual backing vs a "weak" foe, when they have the same amount of PC participants?

The foe doesn't need to be PC. You could have arma-romans invade from the silt sea or something. Or tuluk as our NPC getting uppitty about all these southies hunting their land. OR any of the antagonist tribes used for NPC's. Make the north unsafe again.

But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly. some sort of organized threat gives these two clans more of a functioning feel. Yes I know the Arm is the law, and so on. But if you only have 10 pc's in Nak and 4 of them are the law, and 6 are proteced by employment with a Noble House, who cares?

We need more reasons for people to go to nak, other then nobles.

You do realize that these sort of PCs rarely had any sort of threat before Tuluk closed, as well, as outside of Staff organized events they very, very rarely ever did anything that resulting in PC vs PC martial conflict?  Sure, virtually, they were at war, but this more facilitated others (like GMH) enjoying some power in their ability to go North/South, so crossing a line as a Noble/Templar had some reprecussions.  So it was more political anyways?

Yes, there was barely any actual PC to PC war. This is why I suggested the antagonist not be PC's. It lets there be a bit more conflict.

However you can't deny that back when there was a faint sense of war, there was a feeling to these guilds. The Arm and the Legions actually prevented espionage between cities for instance. The Byn have always been the Byn, and need Staff assistance to do much of anything fun. and when they have that assistance,e it usualy spills out to other guilds. Like The Arm, the Garrison, CW, etc.
Most of us arent asking you to make Red Fangs playable again. I think what most people are asking for is for staff to do something akin to another gith war, or something. Give these militaries a reason to do more then spar all day.  As of now the only plot I see them getting is the same plot they have had for several years.

Sewers has defilers, rawr. Arm pay Byn go In, only most come out, rawr. Wait till next sewer contract.

I'm not trying to throw shade, just trying to offer you what I see, so you can keep doing a great job.

[Brokkr]

You mean the Tablelands gith war?  The one with gith PCs that (at least they were supposed to be) were supposed to be prominent in the whole thing?

[triste]

But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly.

Exactly why Gentleboy rocks for bringing this up right around the time of this AoD rolecall. We are going to get a new Sarge and potentially some Privates -- what the eff are they even going to do all day?

When I played in Tor Academy nearly a decade ago, there was all this fun tension between North and South, and you'd be heckled for even fighting 'Northern Style.' If you walked up asking for things with gloves on, you got the eyeball. There was tension, and conflict.

When I played in the AoD about a year an a half ago, it did not at all resemble the military clans I played in a decade ago. Don't get me wrong; I still loved it. But it felt more like being a courtly knight; one of the greatest recognitions you could have is being a Praetorian, or basically armed aide, and RPTs involved having mock battles in the Arena.

Actually, forget my post. The irony of that fact says it all. In the old days, we had RPTs like the Gith Wars. In the present day, Militia RPTs are re-enactments of past RPTs or actual battles. Let that sink in because it says it all.

[LindseyBalboa]

There isn't a need, it's just that Allanak vs Tuluk was a different game than Allanak vs Surroundings. I didn't play when Tukuk was open, but I've played games where there's one central entity vs all, and also games of entity vs entity. They're just different concepts.

For instance, Allanak vs Tuluk gives houses city-state governments to play off of one another. Allanak vs Surroundings requires houses to play against one another, instead. Allanak vs Tuluk has soldier goals for PCs that are straightforward, whereas Allanak vs Surroundings has smaller enemies - monsters, raiders, criminals, etc.

The benefit to Allanak vs Tuluk, though, is that there will always be conflict. It doesn't require the Crimson Wind to be active and have characters that are trained up, or the Guild to be powerful that week, or Kurac and Salarr to both have active characters that are down to fuck one another over when it comes to armor supply. There is always a ready enemy played.

In my experience, Entity vs Surroundings conversely requires a steady level of GMing to keep things fluid and interesting during the dips in group activity. Not all players are good at starting that conflict, it takes someone who likes GMing to put plot above their character.

[Fredd]

You mean the Tablelands gith war?  The one with gith PCs that (at least they were supposed to be) were supposed to be prominent in the whole thing?

Nope, I mean the one three years back that had Staff animating bands of gith against the Byn fortress, Luirs, on the trade route, etc. The one where people died by the handful in githholes, and laughed about it. That's where my Forum quote comes from actually.

[triste]

In my experience, Entity vs Surroundings conversely requires a steady level of GMing to keep things fluid and interesting during the dips in group activity. Not all players are good at starting that conflict, it takes someone who likes GMing to put plot above their character.

This is astute and well put; it is essentially what Fredd is asking Brokkr for in this thread.

The benefit to Allanak vs Tuluk, though, is that there will always be conflict.

Again well put, and I like this benefit a lot. I love starting conflict [_{in game only of course} ] so naturally I like the Player Entity vs Player Entity model.

But given that we have Entity vs Surroundings currently, we're going to have feedback about things being "dead" because of this GM reliance you mention. That issue is made more acute by the increased focus [as measured by the number of rolecalls and staff supported RPTs] on an increasingly insular and elite group of people. For all we know GM's are GMing steadily for that insular core, but the schmucks on the streets of Allanak, in the Gemmed Quarter, or in the 'rinth largely don't get to see it [as myself, rinthrat and others have observed].

[Shaydee]

Aides may only be allowed to be humans, but they work with all kinds. Criminal, gemmed, etc. Aides are the go between them and the nobles.

I always try rotate where I play with each character. I definitely prefer to play in a certain part of the world, but I try not to limit myself to only playing there. Also trying to rotate any clans I might play in, though I definitely know my favorites.

Eh. I play mages and criminals a lot. Interaction with aides has been extremely limited. They tend to congregate in locations (i.e. Red's) where nonhumans, gemmed and rinthis have no access, too.

RP rarely goes beyond brief requests of "Hey, I need poison/spice/my silk underwear back, can you help?", if it happens at all. And even then, most of the time you can't help and it ends there. With more aides, all you really get is a larger portion of the playerbase in an isolated upper class bubble.

You do have a fair point, the interactions can be quite limited. But I'm sure there is a way to make more interactions there between the different groups. I have seen aides/students in the Gaj often. So not all of them stick to areas where nonhumans, gemmed, and rinthis can't go but I do get what you are saying.

[Pew Pew]

I wish a templar would come after me and a group of PCs alone. As someone who has played several templars, when other people are not on to help you do what you need to, like in real life, take your opportunity because you may not be able to get it again.

Allanak is boring, and I do try to avoid it because, while I do enjoy fighting templars outside of the city state, anyone that is a rogue magicker/raider/not normal nakki person is going to get fucked with..As they should. Templar/AOD/Noble sees something with nice gear they have not seen before, I expect them to get fucked with/questioned etc.

Brokkr is right about the conflict when Tuluk was around. That being said, I am a HUGE supporter in having big baddie staff avatars driving plots, but this is no secret and I am fine

[Fredd]

I wish a templar would come after me and a group of PCs alone. As someone who has played several templars, when other people are not on to help you do what you need to, like in real life, take your opportunity because you may not be able to get it again.

Allanak is boring, and I do try to avoid it because, while I do enjoy fighting templars outside of the city state, anyone that is a rogue magicker/raider/not normal nakki person is going to get fucked with..As they should. Templar/AOD/Noble sees something with nice gear they have not seen before, I expect them to get fucked with/questioned etc.

Brokkr is right about the conflict when Tuluk was around. That being said, I am a HUGE supporter in having big baddie staff avatars driving plots, but this is no secret and I am fine

I love me some big baddie npc's. Some of my best memories of this game come from those plots.

[Tranquil]

It seems that whenever a PC becomes openly "antagonistic" and actually succeed in some way with this antagonism, and they aren't codedly/staff supported like a sorceror, they eventually just get stomped in some way they can't control at all. Like a Templar teleporting them into the Arena or some such.

Usually, mundane antagonists don't live long. It's hard to blame people when they don't want to do this, and opt to just sit waiting for something to 'happen' for them to participate in without getting goomba stomped by half of the PC game world. Which usually doesn't actually happen, as there's a lack of available open plots/things like that. This leads to boredom, and then people not playing the game at all in Allanak.. and other places too.

In my opinion, the change for plots and all that to become (almost) entirely player-made was a mistake. Especially now that there's no over-arching conflict for Allanak to participate in like there used to be with Tuluk.

[Obeliskocism]

I like this thread.  It gets the creative juices flowing.

As I see it, we have an imbalance of power problem that is stifling meaningful conflict with Allanak.
I see two possible corrections to level the playing field:  either introduce a new enemy on par with Allanak's power, or nerf Allanak's power to put them on par with existing threats.

For the first option we'd need something like Tuluk reopened or some Big Baddie^TM clan with staff support.

For the second option, I could imagine a scenario where Tektolnes gets really upset with his minions and decides to strip all Blue Robes of their magick, or maybe limit them to one spell each.  Now the Templar PCs are just rich warriors who have to martial groups of other PCs to contend with their enemies.  We'd still have the Red and Black Robes with "real power" to keep the city intact against virtual threats.

[triste]

I like this thread.  It gets the creative juices flowing.

As I see it, we have an imbalance of power problem that is stifling meaningful conflict with Allanak.
I see two possible corrections to level the playing field:  either introduce a new enemy on par with Allanak's power, or nerf Allanak's power to put them on par with existing threats.

For the first option we'd need something like Tuluk reopened or some Big Baddie^TM clan with staff support.

For the second option, I could imagine a scenario where Tektolnes gets really upset with his minions and decides to strip all Blue Robes of their magick, or maybe limit them to one spell each.  Now the Templar PCs are just rich warriors who have to martial groups of other PCs to contend with their enemies.  We'd still have the Red and Black Robes with "real power" to keep the city intact against virtual threats.

Good summary of the situation and good proposals. Templars still have and would have a plethora of benefits, but it might be enough to just nudge the balance as you describe. Your proposal specifically also solves the problem of Gemmed not having enough to do [imo].

[Pew Pew]

I would much prefer the first option. The game is not supposed to be balanced. Nerfing templars because they are more powerful than a group of mundane seems silly.

I want more Malikiths, Nektols, Akaria's and Samos'.  Templars that keep the plots moving, players involved, and giving people a reason to fear fucking in or around the city. Nektol was the worst fucking templar in a good way. Everytime this dude would walk in people would shit their pants and know it was tax time or your going to be an indentured servant...Malikith, if you fuck with the city or its interest, he is going to fucking stomp you if you are not being reasonable. Samos....still..scared of him.

I think part of the reason players die to templars and have bad experiences is  because they do not RP correctly with them..They are fucking sorcerers. You get caught or going to fight them, you likely would run. It's the same problem but opposite with sorcerers. A majority of pcs are like OH COOL let's be friends with them even though the documentation states you should be acting differently.

We need competition for Allanak

[Gentleboy]

Fun fact; I once called Malikiths boring to his face and lived.

Also; I'm so glad this post is staying a great discussion thread. Thank you all for respecting one another.

I'm radical. I'm very happy with my current pc who is in Allanak currently. I love this character but, with them I've learnt why the city is hurting. I'm a true believer in "if something is not working, it's okay to scrap it and try again".

Is it wrong that I want Allanak to be purged and a different force to take over the city? It would be wild to see Allanak knocked down a peg and the political system shaken to the core. Change excites me while I know it scares others. What do we lose by having an outside force sack Allanak? Maybe they bring rain with them. Maybe they drain the silt sea and turn all elves into like salt thralls. Who knows. The world and Allanak as the center of the world, the one thing others have called 'Truly Zalanthas' is bone dry. And it's not just a "it's a quiet period". The city has lost its charm and feels like a relic of old times. It's a new era, a new hungry era of players that can't remake what once was.

[SodaDogARM]

I want you to take a step back from your perceived notions about what Templars do or what the posts were about and quit trying to put them to fit your narrative. Considering there are only ever typically 2 or 3 tenplars at one time that makes sense as well. Also, take a moment to think at why a Templar would be out there, solo before you start bashing play you should really take another perspective. I too have been killed by templars and raiders alike and in not so great fashions, but when I heard what was going on with the other side of it? I was amazed at the depth of reasoning and what was going on. Sure, some cases it was just bad, but I think you should start giving people more room than you are.

Sorry, but to accuse someone of narrative shifting with the argument the interesting part of the conflict is happening behind closed curtains completely unbeknownst to the victim/target is rather silly.  Mature players with many deaths across several years know whether or not they are satisfied with how a conflict plot turns out when their time comes, and I have no reason to believe Triste isn't one of them with the way they speak about conflict despite how I might disagree in certain aspects. Being intimate with both sides of the Templarate and criminality in the timetable Triste is discussing I can say with one hundred percent certainty that there were swathes of deaths during it that were orchestrated in completely bogus or unimaginative ways, and I don't even play elves. No mature player expects a villain/hero monologue upon their death, but mature players expect to be treated with respect by their adversaries and not just wiped out of the game because it is easy or they are a minor inconvenience. That is not the spirit of what is at the end of the day a role-playing video game meant to be enjoyed by all involved.

Shit happens, that's arguably the best part of this game, the emotional investment that can be snatched away at any moment. Yet to expect the snatching to be done by someone who promotes involvement and conflict rather than squashes it immediately in what could be argued is some sort of meta-laziness isn't a tall ask. Conflict can be either resolved or maintained in a thousand interesting ways that I personally don't see very often because it would seem the composure or wit to do so has been discarded by tired role-callees or simply never existed in the first place. By no means have we been bereaved of it, but that dignity and flavor offered to other players by the Allanaki powers-that-be since I started playing has been on a steady decline and the population has certainly correlated. I believe people are tired of getting kicked in the ass by uninspired or one-note players and have sought their enjoyment elsewhere, either locked away in clan compounds or out of the city entirely.

I say all of this and [big meanie templar who I don't think has been gone for more than a year yet] is by leaps and bounds my favorite player I've interacted with in my time with the game.

[Pew Pew]

Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.

Knowing these things and watching the relation to PK posts they were in 2 different realma. It makes anything that was claimed hard to believe as the narrative was adjusted to be in their favor.

[Obeliskocism]

Here's a radical idea.  Have the tektolnic plates shift under the Vrun Driath and split Allanak apart like Pangaea.

Imagine dozens of crim-code free wilderness/rubble rooms separating the market from the commons from the merchant quarter from the noble quarter from the Templar quarter.  How more important would guards and patrols and friends suddenly become?
Every time that mundane aide needs more candles, they must get guards to escort them to the shop!

[Pew Pew]

Here's a radical idea.  Have the tektolnic plates shift under the Vrun Driath and split Allanak apart like Pangaea.

Imagine dozens of crim-code free wilderness/rubble rooms separating the market from the commons from the merchant quarter from the noble quarter from the Templar quarter.  How more important would guards and patrols and friends suddenly become?
Every time that mundane aide needs more candles, they must get guards to escort them to the shop!

That would be sweet. Reminds me of old tuluk!

[triste]

Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.

Knowing these things and watching the relation to PK posts they were in 2 different realma. It makes anything that was claimed hard to believe as the narrative was adjusted to be in their favor.

https://youtu.be/o6ZrD5h4BBc

It seems that whenever a PC becomes openly "antagonistic" and actually succeed in some way with this antagonism, and they aren't codedly/staff supported like a sorceror, they eventually just get stomped in some way they can't control at all. Like a Templar teleporting them into the Arena or some such.

I can say with one hundred percent certainty that there were swathes of deaths during it that were orchestrated in completely bogus or unimaginative ways, and I don't even play elves.

Oh wait, this isn't a flame war against me. I'm not the only one on trial. Other people observed more or less what I ventured to share but it's alright. Don't roast individuals, there are a lot of people who have seen for themselves what I'm talking about.

[X-D]

No, not gith war etc. And CW is raiding clan verses players not verses allanak, even if the templars do get involved now and again, like they did with blackmoon, that is not "allanak" getting involved.

Enemy was the wrong word. Allanak has no rivals. It used to, A place with every counterpart, not just military or police force.

As to "allanak verses surroundings" That would only work if Nak took some sort of major hit...And I mean MASSIVE, to put it where "surroundings" Were actually a threat. So people would have reason to not like/trust outsiders like they used to with the north (or south) accent...something that also no longer matters.

Oh, also, Broken stealth meta.

[SodaDogARM]

Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.

The dynamic between both templars we referenced was fantastic and whatever wealth of kudos they both got were well deserved. Both heavy handed in nuanced ways, promoted other's plots, never shut people down just because they could. From what I've personally seen, both set varied examples of what Templar archetypes should look like. Whatever ire expressed in my previous post was not directed to either in the slightest. Of course no one can claim "they did no wrong" but I think both were wonderful and I wish more folks tread in their footprints.

Yet to clarify I'm not talking about specific cases such as Triste's, I'm talking about sentiments that are very real and can be improved upon by the players responsible for such sentiments, and how rejecting them with the simple excuse of "there is more going on than you know about" is trite. You mentioned the word "reasonable" and that's probably one I was looking for but didn't find exactly. Both players were incredibly reasonable in their own aspects, and I never felt like I was interacting with a brick wall with their own staunch IC/OOC agenda that if I interrupted in any sense I'd be seeking a quick drab death. That is the sort of attitude that has been lost over time and is, in my view, one of the reasons Allanak is depopulating.

[Pew Pew]

Oh wait, this isn't a flame war against me. I'm not the only one on trial. Other people observed more or less what I ventured to share but it's alright. Don't roast individuals, there are a lot of people who have seen for themselves what I'm talking about.

Sorry if it was taken as flaming, I had no intention of doing so. I'm just trying to make sure facts are straight. No one is arguing that there were not a lot of deaths or has not been in Arm over any number of years. No one is arguing that some PK's are not as eventful or even as imaginative as others and things do happen. These are all known and agreed on. All I am trying to point out is the specific narrative you provided didn't seem accurate despite the fact that they may have felt and been perceived that way to you. I am doing this while also trying to help the player of of specific character that it appears you are trying flame because they can't even speak up for themselves because I have experienced far different in the same realm.

[lairos]

I missed a ton since I posted! I could have worded things better and for that I apologize. I never want to diminish what someone had experienced, but I have seen that particular instance brought up in a couple of places such as discord. You're absolutely correct that it is the responsibility of each player to try and enrich the experience on both sides and it sounds like it had gotten missed on at least one side based on the note. The addition I was trying to make was I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to all sides involved because I would like to imagine that everyone gives their best efforts and sometimes things may not come off that way in the moment.

[triste]

We're gonna drop it and move on lads. There are 34 better topics in this thread.