Clan bonuses via code?

[Aruven]

Has this been discussed? This is just an inquiry not because I see any glaring issues.

I had thought about clans, and largely I think this must have developed from leadership roles and ideas around how to be appealing as a clan or retain players--I think it has more potential than that and also potential downsides.

What do folks think about the ability for clan titles and ranks to bestow coded bonuses to the PC player?

A rank in Oash for a mage might perhaps grant a bonus to wisdom gains for spell failures, or maybe like a 5% resistance to all elemental magick types or something fitting the storyline of that position

An elite fighting clan might get like a bonus once hitting a certain rank to defending against multiple attackers.

Ya know. Almost like a 'faction' bonus earned via long affiliation. Just shot gunning from the hip here. I do see the downsides already of like, super twinks guild/subguild/race their PC once they figure out a bonus to just be ridiculous.

Just curious about feedback on this or if it had been discussed in the past.

[mansa]

I think that might lead into more of the fantasy of the world.

Should Oashi Gemmed get a perk towards Magick?
Should Guild get a perk towards thievery/stealth?
Should Byn get a perk towards combat?
Should the Tribals get a perk towards x?


You can either do that by:
clan membership or rank
clan provided items


Downsides:
Favourtism towards clan membership.


Which leads to the question - Should clans have items that give perks, or should it be more even play to non-clanned characters?


...

I've witnessed things in the past that have favoured one clan over another, and the thing that bothered me was that I couldn't make a character that joined up, eventually - that I couldn't get those perks via in game means versus out-of-game setup means.   That bothered me a lot.

[Aruven]

I'm curious about the exclusion you felt in that.

Aren't clans always recruiting and trying to retain members? I haven't played in a city for awhile so I am not on the pulse. I feel like we have enough indy players to maintain that balance.

I do remember a time when players complained about not enough indy players, also, though.

I'd like to think these weren't mindblowing bonuses, maybe like the final highest tier you could attain would be a little more noticeable. This would provide an incentive to achieve.

I am thinking of GMH clans now. Kadius and *Salarr at least, if you aren't using fear, struggle here. A guy can be a basic crafter and just be filthy rich even though the house pay sucks. He can just make anything even as a crafter. He probably doesn't GAF if he makes trainee or not at that point, and once he makes trainee he def. doesn't gaf about higher elevation. I'm obviously watering this down, but you get what I mean. Some places might benefit from meaning to the ranks where the roleplay does not suffice.

This is also allowing players to vie for power positions in a way instead of roleplay. Idk. I shall ponder.

[Kyviantre]

I am indifferent to the idea as a whole.  But I would suggest it was rank-based not item-based.  Items can be nicked, after all.

Rank-based suggests your 'higher ups' have dedicated X amount of time (while you were offline) training you to be better at Y for the reason to make them look good.

We already have plenty of item-based buffs for various things, after all.

It should be more like a racial bonus to whatever.  It would also be nice if it was persistent - if you achieved B rank of Z clan and get bonus 123, if you leave and join P clan, you keep the 123 bonus (since you wouldn't forget your training).

But obviously you start the benefits post rookie stage, so people don't move around a lot just to get the buffs.  It is just a nice little incentive for surviving and sticking around in the same clan long enough to get recognised and promoted?

[SpyGuy]

I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

[Armaddict]

This has been discussed before.  I remember bringing it up, in terms of the Tor Academy.

Bonus to going to the Tor Academy, vs getting a year of training in the Byn?  There are none, really.  Unless we actually code in something that makes it more desirable for those who can afford it.  Tor Scorpions and Tor Academy graduates gain a bump to the -max- of a selected skill or two based on the emphasis of their training, etc.

This was extended to other clans.  It was a shot down idea.  But I always liked it, as long as there was careful consideration involved.

[Jihelu]

This has been discussed before.  I remember bringing it up, in terms of the Tor Academy.

Bonus to going to the Tor Academy, vs getting a year of training in the Byn?  There are none, really.  Unless we actually code in something that makes it more desirable for those who can afford it.  Tor Scorpions and Tor Academy graduates gain a bump to the -max- of a selected skill or two based on the emphasis of their training, etc.

This was extended to other clans.  It was a shot down idea.  But I always liked it, as long as there was careful consideration involved.

From what I read of Tor Academy the Byn would prob get you better results with more sparring.

[Aruven]

See now we're cooking.

Yeah I like the idea of rank based as opposed to item based, and for some of the very reasons mentioned.

What accumulated in all that offline virtual time for 10 years while you were X clan?

Why should it be that the Byn is a more desired location than the Tor Scorpions? Because its a high volume clan?

If my PC heard someone in game, talking about anyone other than a Tor scorpion being the best fighting force in Allanak, he'd laugh at them. Why?

Filling those types of gaps is the idea.

Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

[Aruven]

I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

Hmm. Are those really clan benefits right now? You don't need a sparring ring now that people can bang out in their apartments with cheaply made sparring gear, or go buy tents and set up at a remote foraging location and spar all day and night. You don't need clan specific crafting recipes right now because economy.

If a player can't figure out how to kill a chalton and cook it 5 rooms away in the Gaj, Armageddon isn't for that player. Water is arguable as supplied.

[Jihelu]

I do think it would be nifty if certain clans had skills you could learn with time in the clan + constant use. Being in X clan and attempting Y skill gives you a chance of branching it.

I wouldn't make it as hard as branching a language, which fucking sucks, but decently hard. Easier with time.

It's hard to rough circle on the Byn without guard and rescue guys please agree ;.;

[SpyGuy]

I'm overall against this idea and don't see it being a thing. Clans get their bonuses from facilities (sparring rings), clanned crafting recipes (you're not a better jeweler but Kadius offers you special recipes and presumably techniques to make the most beautiful toe rings) and supples (whether that's money, water and food or just unlimited arrows).

Getting a flat skill bonus from being in a certain clan doesn't make much sense to me under the current guild/subguild system.

Hmm. Are those really clan benefits right now? You don't need a sparring ring now that people can bang out in their apartments with cheaply made sparring gear, or go buy tents and set up at a remote foraging location and spar all day and night. You don't need clan specific crafting recipes right now because economy.

If a player can't figure out how to kill a chalton and cook it 5 rooms away in the Gaj, Armageddon isn't for that player. Water is arguable as supplied.

Sparring rings are just one type of facility.  Warehouses, wagons, and estates are others.  Also sparring outside has risks that sparring in the Byn compound doesn't have.  Not to mention clans like the Byn give you access to many sparring partners. Some apartments may allow sparring, others don't.  But I've seen staff discourage using lived in apartments as sparring rings.

Point taken that if the goal is making coin you're probably better off as an independent.  Fewer restrictions on selling and no House share assuming you can get skilled up and get your supply going.  But clan specific gear has the benefit of being highly desirable and presumably better quality.  Salarr has the techniques to make better weapons and armor than Amos the artisan.  Kurak has quite a few awesome items.  Wearing Kadian gear is presumably more luxurious. For PC to PC sales it's better to be clanned but again that may not be the best way to make coin.

[triste]

This feels too videogamey and like it would detract from immersion and realism.

It also puts player made organizations at a disadvantage which I 100% do not approve of. We would never have clans like the Soh Lanah Kah or the Crimson Wind if the Militia and Kuraci Fist got "speshul muscle bonusez" or however these boosts would show up in score/stats. And I like any Soh 1000% more than a twink who joined a guild for a "muscle bonus." So glad these antagonistic player made clans never had to contend against that: these player made clans fought themselves into existence through skill and merit alone.

Seems best to keep our ecosystem one in which factions fight with tactics and earned talent, not "+1 archery cuz ur an elf in an elf clannn."

_{Ironically though this notion came to mind because I have started working at a company known for having the hardest interviews in the world, an acceptance rate lower than Harvard or any Ivy League, and a reputation for having smart employees. Early on I was learning so much and having headaches and I wondered, joking to myself in a way I would never say outloud, wow, is this headache from the literal strain of all this learning and computation; is my brain literally adapting, am I becoming smarter? It is quite possible if you measured my IQ before and after starting this job it would have gone up (as I stated earlier IQ is a flawed measure ofc). But, if I were to ever seriously say "Yes working at company ____ makes you smarter than other people, people who work at company ____ are just plain smarter than other people," well, that would make me a delusional asshole wouldn't it? Who for one second would ever make an assertion like that IRL? No one who actually is smart. I pray, PRAY, we never see something like this in Arm and the bad roleplay it would produce.}

TLDR SpyGuy is right so far.

[Grogerif]

Having an Npc with master in some skill give a lecture and teach everybody in the room (clanned area). This would aid immersion in the game, give a coded boost to those who care about that, and give an npc that immortals can animate to mix up the grind with. 

It would also help display, cool gear and customcrafts aside, it's the people in the clan that really draw people in.  Tor Academy is great because nobody else can teach you swordwork like them.  Byn is great because nobody else can teach you how to run away from a fight, or shovel shit, in the same way. 

Players that can instruct (and are willing) are always better.  But just giving a bonus because you're in a clan, I dislike.

[Brokkr]

I will admit to experimenting with something like this recently.

However, it is more about availability "bonus" than "extra" bonus.  And it is not completely riskless.

[slipshod]

Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

I'm not Arm, but it wasn't that brutal, assuming this is the correct thread from 2015.
You were involved in the conversation, Aruven.

[Aruven]

Arm how brutal would it be to find that thread you're talking about and post it here? Or was it a clan specific discussion? And was it like Nyr shot down or like Halaster shot down?

I'm not Arm, but it wasn't that brutal, assuming this is the correct thread from 2015.
You were involved in the conversation, Aruven.

Bwaha, thanks mate. I didn't peel through that whole thread but yeah looks like I am revisiting what was mentioned again here and what wizturbo was theorizing on there. Whelp. I cant keep the GDB, topics, and my brain straight anymore.

[mansa]

I'm curious about the exclusion you felt in that.

Aren't clans always recruiting and trying to retain members? ...

...

Everything I remember is tainted and probably incorrect, but in the past I seem to recall:

"Sparring" weapons being clanlocked and unable to purchase in shops.   If you had a sparring weapon, people would know the only source of that item was from clan x.
"Spurs" items that give + to movement and +skills being clanlocked.    If you had the only spur item, people know the singular source of the item is from clan x.
...I might be remembering the past wrong, though.  I am quite elderly.


Basically, the question becomes:
If an ItemPerkBonus exists only for a specific clan, should there be an alternative ItemPerkBonus that is available through other means, and will it be as equal in PerkBonus ?


examples:
If you join House Kurac, they have +50 movement boots for their clan members, but the maximum +movement boots you can buy in the game is +40.
If you join House Salarr, their clan issued swords give +50 to slashing damage, but the best / most expensive sword you can get from Salarr shops gives +40.
If you join the Byn, their sparring weapons do 1d2 damage, but the only sparring weapons you can buy from the shop do 1d5 damage.
If you join the Guild, their clan boots give +75 to sneak, but the best non-clan "footpads" in game only give +50.
If you join Oash, they give you access to <thingy> and <thingy> just for having the clan tag, but you can never get access to it without the clan membership.
If you join the Sun Runners, you get access to an item to make alcohol, but nobody else in the game is allowed to have access to a similar item.


I could go on with more examples, but the premise I'm talking about is:

a) Should clans have the "best" item available in game to their members ?
b) Can these items exist outside the clan at the same level of "best" ?
c) Should the difficulty of obtaining these items be such that it is "easier" in a clan, and harder in a non-clan, but in the end still obtainable ?
d) Should the fantasy of Zalanthas be used to explain the gatekeeping of such items?



I know that if I'm playing a character and I see other characters with cool items, and I attempt to get the same cool items and get rejected, I'll probably get envious and jealous that I'm unable to attain them.  And I believe that jealousy of the faster progression of other characters in the game compared to my own will breed discontent.  Why can't I buy my own sparring dummy and put it in my apartment!!!

I don't think there's a good answer, and I think it will have to be case-by-case depending on the PerkBonus.

[Brokkr]

Basically, the question becomes:
If an ItemPerkBonus exists only for a specific clan, should there be an alternative ItemPerkBonus that is available through other means, and will it be as equal in PerkBonus ?

There are clan-only items, typically because of logo or whatever, but sometimes as non-obvious signs of belonging to a group or only available through a group.

Sometimes those items are better than you can otherwise get.  Such bonuses aren't really game-breaking.

We are not looking to maintain some parity between what you can get in a clan with such items and when you get as an independent.  There are tradeoffs between the clans on what gets what, and even by rank.  Given the nature of the gameworld, being an independent should be harder in some respects.  And there are certainly respects in which being an independent is easier, although whether those aspects should exist as they do currently is debatable.

[triste]

Having a hell of a morning here, sorry for sloppiness.

I am not sure why we want Player Made clans to be at a disadvantage more than they already are. I thought "be the change" was one of the motivating ethos of this game! I would only be on board with clan perks if we also form clearer guidelines around player made clan creation so everyone gets a piece of the pie and the game remains creative. I worry about clan perks suppressing player made clans, which were already too much of a struggle to form. What this change would do is corrupt roleplay incentives by mixing in gameplay incentives in a way that is gamey / tackier than this game deserves.

[mansa]

To sidetrack the conversation slightly..

Wouldn't it be cool if a single NPC Merchant had different inventory availability based on clan tag / clan rank ?

That way, you can go to a Salarri NPC as a Byn Runner and type 'list' and see a bunch of shitty armors, and then go to the exact same Salarri NPC as a  Seargent of the Byn, and see both shitty armor AND some better armors that are limited to characters of a social rank ?

That would be some clan bonuses applied to NPC Merchants in various places.

[slipshod]

To sidetrack the conversation slightly..

Wouldn't it be cool if a single NPC Merchant had different inventory availability based on clan tag / clan rank ?

That way, you can go to a Salarri NPC as a Byn Runner and type 'list' and see a bunch of shitty armors, and then go to the exact same Salarri NPC as a  Seargent of the Byn, and see both shitty armor AND some better armors that are limited to characters of a social rank ?

That would be some clan bonuses applied to NPC Merchants in various places.

That would be cool.  It would also be cool if the entire store inventory was still visible in the merchant NPC's 'list', but when a peon or pc of insufficient rank attempts to 'view' or 'buy' an item out of their reach the shopkeeper would shame them and call them out in front of other customers for being 'too lowly' and forgetting their place.

[triste]

Yes, but why would we want something like this. This is a Role Play Intensive game, not Diablo III. The key motivation in Armageddon is roleplay, not gear and perks.

Here's a little scene I imagine in the future if we had clan perks like this:

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf says, looking across the table at you:
  "Your Salarri keepers have been underpaying you for years. I remember when we met some two, three years ago, you enlisted with some hope of parading around in Silt Horror plate. And I don't see a single piece of it upon you. Why don't you work for me?"

You say, regarding the lean, kohl-eyed half-elf closely:
  "Alright, I am listening to you... what do you have to offer?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf says, with a tight smile preceeding her words:
   "Well, for one, you'll have your silt-horror plate, and none other like it. I'll make you a full suit to your specifications. I also have in my crew an ex-Byn Sergeant -- ah, I believe you were lovers in the past, she still mentioned being fond? Either way, I'll also give you three large, half now, and half after you help us for a year."

You think, ICly, "Wow, that is far more than Salarr has ever offered me. And I miss my old Sergeant... I should definitely take this offer."

You think, OOCly, "But my character will lose their +2 Salarri strength bonus and my character needs that because he has low strength."

You tell the lean, kohl-eyed half-elf, with reservation:
  "I can't."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf purrs in Allundean:
  "Why? I know you've never gotten an offer this good in your life: you're a breed like me. Why, I even have a spare ratlon I can lend you."

You think, OOCly, "Fuck, how do I roleplay this."

You say:
   "Uh... because Salarr makes me stronger."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf laughs, as if amused:
   "What, is this about /food/? Oh, I can /feed/ you... And Silt Horror plate is far stronger than those raptor leathers you're wearing now."

You say, struggling to roleplay through this metagamey situation:
   "But... what is your crew /known/ for. Are you, uh... /fast/. Or do you... track well? Or something?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf squints:
   "What are you getting at?"

You OOC, feeling like an asshole: "Uh what perks does your clan have?"

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf OOCs: "None, I am trying to start a clan that will get some. "

You say, resigned and struggling to stay in character still, making a bad decision you know only has OOC motivations that never needed to be introduced to the game:
   "I am sorry... I just can't and I can't really explain why. Maybe try to find me in a few years and we'll talk again."

The lean, kohl-eyed half-elf thinks, OOCly: "Damn, I used to be able to make player-made clans in the past, but now people care more about powergaming than roleplay. I guess we shouldn't have valued gameplay more than roleplay as a community."


Yeah, no. If I ever see something like this in game, I'd know clan perks were a terrible mistake.

[Jihelu]

You  can argue the same exact thing with a crafter character in all the merchant houses being unable to leave less they magically lose the ability to turn X generic item into Y mastercrafted Merchant House Bad Ass because the minute they get unclanned they forget how.

[triste]

You  can argue the same exact thing with a crafter character in all the merchant houses being unable to leave less they magically lose the ability to turn X generic item into Y mastercrafted Merchant House Bad Ass because the minute they get unclanned they forget how.

Happens to be another case great roleplayers have complained about, because it allows gameplay to trump roleplay/realism/immersion considerations. So my question is, why do we want to make a decision to harm roleplay in the name of gameplay more than is necessary? If I get a good reason why besides "Sweet boosts and I get to kill things easier," I could be convinced. But I haven't seen justification so far besides it would "be cool." How, exactly, are OOC / meta stat boosts that are impossible to roleplay elegantly game improving?

[Riev]

Don't make character bonuses based on clan/level.
Make character bonuses based on gear that SHOULDN'T be available unless you are a certain clan/clan level.

Give me +2 strength for being in the Byn, but only because I'm wearing some Byn-only vambraces or something. Allow me to parade around in the equipment I EARNED, and if you see anyone in those Byn-only vambraces and they aren't a Bynner? IMMEDIATE point of conflict.

Similarly, let me have my +5% endurance from Kurac, but base it on a Kurac-only item. Bring the bonuses in game and allow them to be a resource that can be bought or traded. Then, ENFORCE their clan locks. Some non-Salarri running around in a plated salarri bracer designed ONLY for Crew Leaders? Salarr now MUST get that back. Hire the Byn. Hire the Guild. Kill the guy. Offer to buy it. Do SOMETHING to get your property back.