The Allanak Problem

[triste]

Gonna be real with you. Wanted to do something unique in Allanak. The absolute lack of players and the absolute lack of interest killed it entirely for me to the point where I haven't played for months besides maybe fifteen minute log ins.

It's a shame, because I was so excited, and then it was just dead, immediately. Doneso, especially after some shitty IC Allanak-related drama like has been touted in the thread that didn't make anything cool at all, it just made it fucking dumb and frustrating and didn't make me even want to play anymore.
Maybe I'm just tired of Armageddon, I don't know.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to give feedback about RP killing situations IG without having to resort to our only three options now:
- Player and Staff complaints, which is a nuclear option.
- Put these concerns in a character report and hope something happens, which has no guarantee of happening because the point of character reports is mostly to get feedback.
- Vaguebook about it on the GDB [not calling AdamBlue out for doing this because I do it to. It's one of your only options besides the two above and sadly/ironically it may be the BEST option in terms of the likelihood of changing bad roleplay killing behavior].

I am sure players and staff don't want to "kill plots." If I ever did something to "kill a plot" I would want to know and learn from my mistakes, but given the three options above, if I have killed a plot in a bad way, I haven't heard of it. Sometimes I think we should have a means to give player feedback beyond either a kudos or a complaint, like a constructive feedback sort of tool. This would help a lot of ambiguous situations, possibly stop this phenomenon of "my only option here is to vaguebook about the problem and quit playing," and also solve other issues like helping new/learning roleplayers by allowing more experienced roleplayers to give them feedback without slamming them with a complaint, etc.

Anyway AdamBlue you're one of the best players we have, but I don't know what to constructively say besides the above. But I also relate, my play times have dwindled in the same way and when I try to explain it a lot of killed plots and glass ceilings come to mind.

[mirk_o_loio]

Allanak has a ton of thiefy fucks that pile in on you and steal EVERYTHING but your clothes the second you step out of a locked area/Clan compound.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, way back in the day, Allanak vs Tuluk (and before that, the rebels vs Allanak) was the lick. We didn't have more players (by much), but it was just ... it worked.

I really think that with fewer players (and really, in a way, even if we had more players), we could do away with Allanak, Tuluk, and in a way, this new version of Luir's, and have a really interesting system that would spread people out, create conflict and travel and a reason for the Byn, etc.

Merchants are the lifeblood of any setting, and so shouldn't they be the real powers? What if Kadius returned to Morin's, Kurac retained their Outpost, and Salaar claimed Red Storm?

What if Tek shut down Allanak just like Muk did Tuluk?

What if the new story of Armageddon was the story of three (four if you want to include Nenyuk) merchant houses and their war for survival in a world where there was no Tek or Muk to kibosh the huge threats? There would be military and hunter roles in each clan, crafter roles in each clan, "noblish" roles in each clan. There'd be inter-clan conflict, particularly for higher ranks, and there'd be conflict between clans in the way of both politics and resources, because they would both need (or want) crafted things from each other, and they would need resources that the other clan desired.

And the Byn could profit off all of them, reinforcing the low combative moments for each clan, centered from the fort.

You could even reopen Nunyek and set them as a sort of neutral entity of sorts, serving as value holders (banking) and also intermediators between the clans in this new system.

And then there would be the tribes, and the big baddies, and maybe even select moments when either Muk or Tek's forces made appearances.

I dunno. That's what I'd do.

[WarriorPoet]

Sounds dope. 7DV for president.

[X-D]

I would be down with such a thing.

[wizturbo]

I personally wouldn't close down Allanak, just de-staff it for a time.  Transition plot and story support over to the merchant houses for a period of time (lets say 1 year) and then finish up that story thread and start another.  Maybe that next story thread is with the merchant houses again, but maybe it goes back to Allanak.  Or it goes to the tribes.  Etc...change things up, give people a reason to return to explore a new storyline.

[triste]

military and hunter roles in each clan

You have me onboard with this single clause [read the rest, it's also alright].

When I came back two years ago after a 3-4 year break, the removal of house hunters was the single biggest WTF change I saw since the closure of Tuluk. It removed a vector of competition between Houses and just made working in a Merchant house 99% less interesting to myself and other players. Still boggled that policy now is that Houses can only work with indie hunters and players who like to hunt are stuck being indie [unless you are a tribal or the like]. I don't understand why we are pushing people out of roles with rich documentation and history and into unsupported, advancement free and therefore flat indie roles.

Not sure I am for closing Allanak but totally for this one aspect of your idea. It's not just old players like us who lament the loss of house hunters, twice I have seen new players show up and ask "I saw Houses have hunters and guards in the docs. I really want to play that!" And then these newbies are told no, arbitrarily they cannot play that.

[Blanc de Ocotillo]

Make it a trade hub. You want something nice you should have to go to Nak to get it. Luirs, storm ect shouldn't have high end items for sale. Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city. Racism, and tribalism are great on paper but the reality is they segregate the player population. I'm not saying we throw away these things but in the major city that's supposed to be the heart of civilization that should be were you get the most mingling of cultures and races. That's how irl cities form.. they are trade hubs. Don't try and run every gemmed and elf you see out of the Gaj if you don't want to be around then go to Reds. Nobles and templars don't have to be absolutely assholes to ever single commoner they met either. Maybe don't run off every pc that sits at table in the same bar you are in? Flip side stop robbing every high born/ merchant you see in public and maybe they won't hold up in their compounds 24/7.  Allanak should be the most heavily populated area in the game most of the time. Coming back from a several year break it feels like a ghost town. I really feel the push towards more racial and cultural exclusivity is the source of the problem.

[Fredd]

Make it a trade hub. You want something nice you should have to go to Nak to get it. Luirs, storm ect shouldn't have high end items for sale. Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city. Racism, and tribalism are great on paper but the reality is they segregate the player population. I'm not saying we throw away these things but in the major city that's supposed to be the heart of civilization that should be were you get the most mingling of cultures and races. That's how irl cities form.. they are trade hubs. Don't try and run every gemmed and elf you see out of the Gaj if you don't want to be around then go to Reds. Nobles and templars don't have to be absolutely assholes to ever single commoner they met either. Maybe don't run off every pc that sits at table in the same bar you are in? Flip side stop robbing every high born/ merchant you see in public and maybe they won't hold up in their compounds 24/7.  Allanak should be the most heavily populated area in the game most of the time. Coming back from a several year break it feels like a ghost town. I really feel the push towards more racial and cultural exclusivity is the source of the problem.

Solid insight from someone, if I am not mistaken, who should know the ins and outs of Allanak, and how it's population flows. Allanak should remain dark and gritty, but right now the trade hub is Luirs. And we need to consider how that's an issue for the whole game.

I've always believed Luirs should have always been tribal, setting wise it makes more sense for there to be a place all the tribes hold councel and negotiate wars and such. merchant house's rp should largely be in the city, tribals should have Luirs.

But that's a pipe dream, I know. to big of a change. Even to work for IC.

[Kyviantre]

Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city.

All very well, but some of the tribes contain magickers.  From what I've seen, Allanak is fairly friendly towards tribals, but either people won't visit because they are magickers, won't visit because they are 'standing with' their magicker fam, or they visit with zero problems in trading.

I don't know about all tribes, but some also have reasons for not wanting to trade in Allanak, and even when invited, won't accept (for reasons other than above).

I would like to see Luir's be more of a tribal mecca, and keep the GMH to the cities (in this case, Nak and I guess Morin's for Kadius), but I have yet to have a character actually live -in- Luir's, so I'm probably not the best person to weigh in here on that!

[Pew Pew]

7DV, holy shit sign me up! Only change

Morins: Kadius
Luirs: Salaar
RedStorm: Kurac because of spice

[Lizzie]

Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city.

All very well, but some of the tribes contain magickers.  From what I've seen, Allanak is fairly friendly towards tribals, but either people won't visit because they are magickers, won't visit because they are 'standing with' their magicker fam, or they visit with zero problems in trading.

I don't know about all tribes, but some also have reasons for not wanting to trade in Allanak, and even when invited, won't accept (for reasons other than above).

I would like to see Luir's be more of a tribal mecca, and keep the GMH to the cities (in this case, Nak and I guess Morin's for Kadius), but I have yet to have a character actually live -in- Luir's, so I'm probably not the best person to weigh in here on that!

I've had several characters from Luir's, but not Kuraci family. Most of the time when I play someone *from* Luir's Outpost, there's a lot of pressure to join Kurac, the Garrison, or one of the other GMHs. To me it shouldn't be any different from someone *from* Allanak, who doesn't want to join the Militia or any of the NobleHouses or be a templar's aide. There needs to be people who want to be independent - not independently wealthy, not open their own house, not become a famous merchant - just some random generic person who is from a place, lives in the place, is happy being from the place, and doesn't feel like he has to be a member of a club to do so.

[X-D]

Problem with nak far as mages is. For a very long time, nak Templars and such followed the docs about gemming, I gem was needed to live and work in the city. And at that time gemmers could get jobs. Some changes were made and gemmers could no longer get jobs, cept for one house. So, people basically stopped making them...soon after Templars started this rather odd...and not backed by docs habit of deciding that all mages, anywhere in the world have to have a gem. To the point currently that they call people traitors for dealing with ungemmed anywhere in the world and not bringing them to be gemmed...even if it is a (random tribe) who has never entered the city.

So, basically, yet another thing to keep players away from allanak.

[Lizzie]

Problem with nak far as mages is. For a very long time, nak Templars and such followed the docs about gemming, I gem was needed to live and work in the city. And at that time gemmers could get jobs. Some changes were made and gemmers could no longer get jobs, cept for one house. So, people basically stopped making them...soon after Templars started this rather odd...and not backed by docs habit of deciding that all mages, anywhere in the world have to have a gem. To the point currently that they call people traitors for dealing with ungemmed anywhere in the world and not bringing them to be gemmed...even if it is a (random tribe) who has never entered the city.

So, basically, yet another thing to keep players away from allanak.

Similar thing happened in Tuluk though. I played a Luir's based character who KNEW - meaning - met - a whiran they were hunting down. My character was killed just because she knew that whiran.

[SodaDogARM]

"Luir's shouldn't have high end items for sale" yet it seems one to two of the three GMH heads live there and prefer to operate their business from there at any given time. Not hard to figure out why.

[Brokkr]

IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.

[th3kaiser]

I dunno. I don't think adding rentals ran people out of Allanak. I think adding those rentals just made the place people wanted to play over Allanak more viable.

[HeeBeeGB]

IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.

It's an interesting point. With more hides-holes that aren't in Allanak, people are given more opportunity to run operations outside of Allanak's influence. I'd go one step further than this and say having Warehouses in Luirs as opposed to only in Allanak drives Indies to operate more frequently and easily out of Luirs.

After all, you don't have Templars breathing down your neck for bribes and 'fines', just the GMH, which tend to be less authoritarian by nature. There aren't as many elves. There aren't as many thieves, though still some.

It's part of why I'm sort of against housing going into Morin's Village -- Part of the appeal of Morin's to me is the communal living for Tuluki, and the lack of private storage makes it much more difficult/harsh for those operating out of there. Housing definitely adds a layer of comfortability to an area and with that comfort perhaps comes a lack of willingness to take risk/step outside the comfort box.

While I think housing is related...I don't think it's necessarily the silver bullet for the perceived issues with Allanak. It would add a layer of frustration for many Indie PCs who don't have anywhere to put their doodads. I'm not sure it would force them to use Allanak as a base of operations, and I'm not sure Allanak should be the only base of operations in the game.

As to the GMH mostly sticking around Luirs -- I found that wasn't exactly the case when playing a GMH family member myself. Most of the GMH would travel to Luirs for a stint, but all of their high-end clients are in Allanak. So unless you want to sell alright bone swords for your career, the big money is in Allanak. On the converse, GMH have more power within Luirs, particularly Council members. So it's also not surprising they would want to spend time in Luirs for that reason alone. They are afforded more respect/capability in Luirs that they definitely don't have in Allanak.

[HeeBeeGB]

I found this quote from Nyr from 2014 illuminating:

Tuluk needs more people to play in it.  Both city-states need players to make them really pop.  We can't have conflicts between the two city-states without players on both sides, just like you can't play cops and robbers by only playing the brave police officer or the wily villain.  Even if you like playing one side more than the other, well, the other side has changed quite a bit, and you'll be a better roleplayer and contribute more to the game by fleshing that side out.  Not gritty enough?  It has gritty elements.  Confused?  Ask for help.  Branch out.  Do something different.  This larger conflict stuff is something we'd like to facilitate, and we are asking for your help.  Help us help you murder, corrupt, and betray.  Thanks.

I found that analogy to be pretty spot on, and part of the 'micro' of Allanak that I've seen (IMHO). When you have only brave police officers, and your modus is 'apprehend all elves', while the wily villain elves are 'steal all things', it leads to a very tight circle of plot fomentation, and plots that tend to be repetitive and droll. I do think people are trying their hardest to break out of the mold and the cycle, but it's difficult.

I do think there are things going on in the game that are attempting to break this cycle/mold, and I am happy to see them in play. I have my fingers crossed.

[triste]

I found this quote from Nyr from 2014 illuminating:

Tuluk needs more people to play in it.  Both city-states need players to make them really pop.  We can't have conflicts between the two city-states without players on both sides, just like you can't play cops and robbers by only playing the brave police officer or the wily villain.  Even if you like playing one side more than the other, well, the other side has changed quite a bit, and you'll be a better roleplayer and contribute more to the game by fleshing that side out.  Not gritty enough?  It has gritty elements.  Confused?  Ask for help.  Branch out.  Do something different.  This larger conflict stuff is something we'd like to facilitate, and we are asking for your help.  Help us help you murder, corrupt, and betray.  Thanks.

I found that analogy to be pretty spot on, and part of the 'micro' of Allanak that I've seen (IMHO). When you have only brave police officers, and your modus is 'apprehend all elves', while the wily villain elves are 'steal all things', it leads to a very tight circle of plot fomentation, and plots that tend to be repetitive and droll. I do think people are trying their hardest to break out of the mold and the cycle, but it's difficult.

I do think there are things going on in the game that are attempting to break this cycle/mold, and I am happy to see them in play. I have my fingers crossed.

Great post. I do hope staff identify and support these plots; a much preferred solution to blowing up Allanak entirely [op], or implying that the addition of content players like [Luir's apartments] is the problem because the last conclusion I want anyone to reach is that content removal is, somehow, the answer here. Several players, feels like around 20 at this point, are very concerned about content removal as a solution. Creating plots, content and conflict is much preferred; if these plots start with players and are worthwhile staff can support them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Morins: Kadius
Luirs: Salaar
RedStorm: Kurac because of spice

Yeah, true, but another large portion of Kurac's power is related to tribals, many of which live nearer Luir's than Red Storm.

However, I was thinking about this further, and I'd probably not have Kadius in Morin's. I'd probably create a new settlement for them in the Northlands. If I did have Kadius in Morin's, I'd probably put Salaar in Yaroch.

I'd leave dedicated avenues for both southern and northern players in both Morin's (Tuluk) and Yaroch (Allanak). I'd for sure have one Templar role for each of those locations, and a limited number of soldiers (like 5). I might even have one noble-and-aide role open for each location. I'd offer minimal housing, and a smattering of NPC traders - more than Red Storm. For luxuries, the GMHs would be needed.

So you'd have a number of locations spread across the Known that were all part of the story, and Luir's would probably end up being the new Hub, positioned as it is in the middle.

[SpyGuy]

IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.

I'd like to chime in that that may very well be a problem for Allanak as it makes a Luir's based character more viable.  It's definitely not a problem for the game as some people like playing in Luir's and there needs to be alternatives to Allanak for people to switch around. 


Allanak needs something to draw people in.  And maybe a few less factors pushing people away from it.  Otherwise people will just go to locations where they can have more fun.

[wizturbo]

The IC situation in Luirs should be reason enough to make it a nice place to visit but not live in.  With all the GMHs within its walls the place must be bursting at the seems in terms of capacity, with very little real estate to live in.  Furthermore, nearly all resources to sustain that massively dense population would need to be imported and thus expensive.  I don't see the problem with housing there, it should just be insanely expensive and very cramped.  Food and water should also be double or triple the cost of Allanak, even if non-food stuffs is priced normally due to the GMH operations there.

I think the normal model given those economic conditions would be to live somewhere else but travel to Luirs to sell things at a profit given the increased demand for raw materials there, but not stay too long.

[Fredd]

The IC situation in Luirs should be reason enough to make it a nice place to visit but not live in.  With all the GMHs within its walls the place must be bursting at the seems in terms of capacity, with very little real estate to live in.  Furthermore, nearly all resources to sustain that massively dense population would need to be imported and thus expensive.  I don't see the problem with housing there, it should just be insanely expensive and very cramped.  Food and water should also be double or triple the cost of Allanak, even if non-food stuffs is priced normally due to the GMH operations there.

I think the normal model given those economic conditions would be to live somewhere else but travel to Luirs to sell things at a profit given the increased demand for raw materials there, but not stay too long.

I can see this for water pricing, food pricing being double in the outpost most food passes through makes no sense. Plus, Allanak is supposed to be starving, and always was supposed to. 

[HortaCulture]

TBH I just don't want to see us hack chop and shrink the rest of the playable world to try and make Allanak more appealing. That won't work. We need to fix whatever isn't working in the city, not make the rest of the game "suck more" to drive traffic there. Forget the rest of the world, if Nak was awesome sauce fun for all, people would be living there even if Luirs had free water every third day.