The Allanak Problem

[Is Friday]

I played in Glads both as a perennial combatant (Necksnap) a few years ago and more recently as both Penned and Reigning (Marcelana.) Interest with the clan was waning for a long time until staff eventually stopped getting apps altogether. It was indeed closed for lack of interest.

I remember it was hard to get people to even interact with my Champion a lot of the time, let alone get players to app.

Also keep in mind that opening glads means that you're tying one or more staff to animate Games events 1-3x a month which is a lot to ask. These events are a lot to prepare for (create NPCs) and then also animate them for the events, sometimes before the events, etc. I would estimate it's roughly 10-20 hours a month of committed time, minimum.
This does not include PC setup for new penned or Reigning.

Also, you need a dedicated Doyen PC which is more restrictive than even gladiator PCs and requires similar hours to a leader so that glads get trained.

If players really want it and the clan gets enough apps/continued interest, that's cool. But it's a big ask. I think the clan is great but many players would not enjoy it. It also requires of players in the clan to align on peak 2x a month for these events, etc.

[triste]

I played in Glads both as a perennial combatant (Necksnap) a few years ago and more recently as both Penned and Reigning (Marcelana.) Interest with the clan was waning for a long time until staff eventually stopped getting apps altogether. It was indeed closed for lack of interest.

I remember it was hard to get people to even interact with my Champion a lot of the time, let alone get players to app.

Also keep in mind that opening glads means that you're tying one or more staff to animate Games events 1-3x a month which is a lot to ask. These events are a lot to prepare for (create NPCs) and then also animate them for the events, sometimes before the events, etc. I would estimate it's roughly 10-20 hours a month of committed time, minimum.
This does not include PC setup for new penned or Reigning.

Also, you need a dedicated Doyen PC which is more restrictive than even gladiator PCs and requires similar hours to a leader so that glads get trained.

If players really want it and the clan gets enough apps/continued interest, that's cool. But it's a big ask. I think the clan is great but many players would not enjoy it. It also requires of players in the clan to align on peak 2x a month for these events, etc.

And this is exactly why I said if it could be automated and more fully player driven that would be a boon, per my original post. I love it when arguments against my ideas ultimately reinforce them, but I also understand staff is also strapped for coding resources so I'll drop it.

So far the only thing no one has shat on is the major adversary idea, which I also support, so woo that idea! (and sorry noobs who would be interested and probably rock in the role like Shaydee, I tried).

[triste]

* Watches the one idea that would have in fact brought more players to Allanak, unequivocally and logically speaking, flush down the "your interests don't matter, only mine do" drain *

[Is Friday]

* Watches the one idea that would have in fact brought more players to Allanak, unequivocally and logically speaking, flush down the "your interests don't matter, only mine do" drain *

I don't know who you're directing this to but it just seems like you're posting to post rather than providing something to the thread. Staff would like to open the clan I'm sure but whether or not there's enough interest is to be determined.

[triste]

whether or not there's enough interest is to be determined.

I love the use of passive voice "is to be determined" as that is the core of the problem. How is interest determined? Is it determined by how many people say they like an idea, or how many people who post to say their idea is bad, so bad? How about the people who are quiet at the sidelines?

And here we have another mega-thread. I've put a lot of ideas on the table, many of which have support. I love the ideas people are sharing here, but would love to see something actionable arise from this.

[Is Friday]

Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.

[triste]

Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.

That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.

[Is Friday]

Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.

That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.

I don't understand why you think that a clan which requires PCs can exist without players apping in to play those PCs. Please explain?

[triste]

Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.

That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.

I don't understand why you think that a clan which requires PCs can exist without players apping in to play those PCs. Please explain?

Imagine a situation where a game has a dwindling playerbase. You're the last member of a clan. You live under a logical regime laid out by IsFriday where if a clan becomes empty, it shall, must, and will automatically close.

You've played this role, alone, with no clan interaction. You don't want to store and have the clan closed, because you love it. You want to play something new and, gasp, have fun, but duty binds you. You are a prisoner.

[Wow, I sure am glad applications and rules like the person replying to me seems to be proposing don't actually exist.]

You are leading us down a tangent, IsFriday. Respectfully, drop it.

[StrangledShriek]

Not to be combative, but you tend to be more tangent oriented than anyone I see on these boards. You reply to yourself constantly. But ignoring that, he's just asking how this idea which you claim would unequivocally bring players back works when player interest drove them to close this clan.

[triste]

Not to be combative, but you tend to be more tangent oriented than anyone I see on these boards. You reply to yourself constantly. But ignoring that, he's just asking how this idea which you claim would unequivocally bring players back works when player interest drove them to close this clan.

I am being 100% noncombative and operating with facts.

Here's the facts. This is the statement on why Gladiators closed:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55150.0.html

No mention of "due to a lack of applications." I am happy to debate with you all, but use facts like I do maybe.

[Shabago]

I'm going to say this once, and once only. Knock off the self-back patting, grand standing, passive snipes and anything else to do with it, as I am so tired of having to comb past such to find anything of substance.

If that isn't possible, I will absolutely see you removed from the GDB.

[HeeBeeGB]

It's the same argument as Slave PCs. Just because someone says they are interested on the GDB doesn't mean they will actually apply for, and play, a slave PC. The same goes with a Gladiator PC. It's all and well to say 'I would love this' and 'I would love to play a Gladiator', but I don't think Staff arbitrarily shuts down a clan due to lack of interest just because it rolls off the tongue well.

As well, playing an Alt Character Gladiator sounds cool (particularly if you are playing in another part of the world, and you can login to your Gladiator PC for arena events) but it's also a lot of work / PC Separation. I have a hard enough time putting hours into my main PC, to have to split it between two seems crazy. I had applied for a Penned gladiator at one point and withdrew the application after being accepted, due to lack of time.

I don't think the Gladiators as a whole provide anything for Allanak beyond consistent distraction. That's not a bad thing. The arena games were a cool reason to log in. I liked the variety of Champions/Reigning Gladiators to interact with. But it also ran into the same problem that a 'Red Robe' or 'Lieutenant/Captain in the AoD' or other high glass-ceiling PCs do/would. They are simply around too much to increase the WoW factor. When you see a Reigning Gladiator or the Champion of the Arena every other day, the shine wears off. They become more mundane, and thus, both more vulnerable and written off. They achieve the opposite of the intended result -- instead of being flashy and neat, they become mundane and boring, from no fault of their own. It would be silly to tell a player 'play less because you are around too much'. Thus, the problem with high glass-ceiling PCs, including Gladiators. Again, all in my own observational opinion, not stated as fact.

I doubt there is anything stopping enterprising players from app'ing in Tuluki PCs in Morin's Village and starting a rebel Warband. It'd take a lot of work, much like a player clan would, and may be fruitless. But like Brokkr pointed out, too, we tend to wear rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Tuluk v Allanak. There was rarely martial PK / PvP interactions. But! There was plenty of mystery, vague conflict, conflict between Nobles, conflict between opposing Templars, and a ton of spy craft. It just didn't necessarily bleed over to all out war or PvP.

Then again, the Copper Wars were one of the best moments for the game in its history, I think. It also was a different time when it occurred, a different team of Staff, I think the percolation of 'Armageddon Reborn' had started even that far back, so. I dunno. I don't necessarily want Copper War v2.0, but something like it would be a more welcome distraction than Gladiators (IMHO).

[triste]

Then again, the Copper Wars were one of the best moments for the game in its history, I think. It also was a different time when it occurred, a different team of Staff, I think the percolation of 'Armageddon Reborn' had started even that far back, so. I dunno. I don't necessarily want Copper War v2.0, but something like it would be a more welcome distraction than Gladiators (IMHO).

More or less agree, and I am constantly mentioning the PBRPT just because I feel it was the most recent thing that felt close to that and I absolutely loved it. Kudos [again] to all staff and players involved. As myself and others mentioned, the more self-renewing the conflict the better. Having it player driven is one way, but there are other ways to make conflict sustained and self renewing. One possibility is a new frontier with many hostile foes that sometimes extend themselves for RPTs / conflicts. Almost like a wall of white-walkers -- walking towards their territory or camp would be instant death, but over the course of in game months or even years Allanak could combat them. The semi-automated nature would make it less work and more fun for all involved.

[Greve]

Gladiators were a gimmick, and no gimmick will revitalize Allanak as a sphere of play. The fundamental problem is that almost none of the traditional city-based concepts have any solid basis in today's gameplay. They're predicated on imaginary/virtual things. The things that were meant to be the "content" for those roles have been removed or never existed.

It's not that interesting to embark on the role of a soldier when there hasn't been a war in many RL years and no prospects of any in the future. It has become a life of patrolling the increasingly empty and uneventful streets. You're not a soldier, you're the neighborhood watch. You can play a soldier from recruitment to retirement and see no more action than the occasional batch of animated gith or raiders that were there for you to wipe out so you could feel at least a little bit relevant.

It's pretty dull to play in the GMHs because they're now basically one big clan with no real friction between them, and their main base of operations is halfway across the world from Allanak. There's nothing going on that merchants can really have an influence on, either. You know... like war profiteering and things like that? You have no opportunities to branch out into anything new because for some reason, merchant houses in Zalanthas are glued to the same industries throughout the entire history of the world. What happened to the Salarri Expansion Division? That was the golden age of GMHs, and that was a long time ago. Playing in a GMH now feels like working a retail job.

Indie merchants? What are they supposed to strive for? It takes a laughably long time to work your way toward a warehouse and trading company status. Once you have a few thousand 'sid, you discover that there isn't really anything to spend it on besides continuously paying people to leave you alone, which they will right up until there's any actual reason to stop leaving you alone, because that money you're paying them is worth way less to other players than the opportunities for conflict that everyone's so starved for.  Also nobody wants your crafted goods. There's no demand for any of the shit that unclanned crafters can offer, especially now that shops never reset and are bursting at the seams with equipment.

There's no support whatsoever for the elven side of the 'rinth, and thus no players there, so the human side is left to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for someone to order some spice once a month just so they can feel like the Guild has a reason to exist.

The Byn is a great introduction to the game's combat system, but what's the appeal for experienced players beyond a legal source of combat training? Far from gritty mercenaries, they've just become the guys that escort you from Allanak to Luir's. There's nothing else there. You can't do anything in this game anymore that warrants hiring a mercenary company save for pointless mini-quests like "go kill a silt horror."

Nobles have nothing to work with because the world stands still. The hierarchy of houses never changes so there's no competition to speak of, there's no enemy city to interact with, there's no platform for political actions. Of all the various nobles I've seen pop up in recent years, they have a 100% track record of being seen in public once or twice when new and are then never heard from again. And still more noble houses keep opening. None of them are based on ideas that you can just log in and work on on a random afternoon, you're perpetually waiting for a response to your requests. It's not like you can just log in and go work on your festival or sewer project when it suits you. It's almost like a play-by-post experience.

Hunters? Well, the GMHs no longer have hunting divisions, so it's just a life of collecting shells and hides to sell to whatever crafter needs them in order to skill up leatherworking and armormaking. Keeping fed is a complete non-issue in this game so there's no sense of hunting to bring home the bacon, you're just amassing piles of skinned crap and hoping someone will take those twenty scrab shells off your hands at some point. Without actual clan positions, the role of a hunter in Armageddon is most akin to that of a gold farmer in WoW.

I could keep adding to this list but I won't. The point is that for most of the game's built-in city-based roles, the supposed reason to play that role turns out to be completely artificial and not supported or backed up by any actual demand for it. The same problem existed with some of the discontinued clans as well, such as the Borsail Wyverns, a clan of slavers in a game where enslavement isn't possible. That clan was wisely shut down as the role was simply incompatible with the game, but as more and more layers have been peeled off of ArmageddonMUD, a similar fate has befallen almost all roles. As a result, people make characters that are simply free to dick around, which usually means characters that aren't tied to the city of Allanak.

[Fredd]

I am pretty sure House Fale moved up in rank thanks to a certain noble that has to be the longest lived noble ever.

[Pew Pew]

Everything Great

All this.

[wizturbo]

Greve's post hits the nail on the head.

[Is Friday]

Greve's post is accurate.

[triste]

So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?

[not goading, genuine questions]

[Brokkr]

Many of those roles depend on sitting in a Tavern (or wherever) and socializing, plotting, and whatnot being as important to the character (and one could say, player) as going and actually doing stuff.

If players shift to focus more of their activity to actually doing stuff, of course those roles suffer.

The game is at its best when there is a mix of different interests in what the game has to offer, and a variety of different play styles actively participating (social, combat, explorer, plotter, politic focused, etc.).  As soon as there is a shift, in any direction, of one "meta" or play style or whatever you want to call it as being predominant, the game suffers, IMHO.

[Armaddict]

First...my GDB is broken.  PHP formatting isn't working.  If the text of this is all messed up, that's why, and I apologize in advance if so.

RE: Tuluk
Tuluk does not need to be necessarily re-opened to stabilize the conflict situation.  The consolidation of playerbase into less locations was good, in my opinion...HOWEVER.  I have been on that whole kick of 'open more clans' for a long time...when -clans- got consolidated, it removed the faction-based internal workings of the city.  Even
when noble guards don't have a ton to do...it's necessary for them to be there so that nobles don't need to extradite everything they want done to others.  Even when merchant hunter groups seem unnecessary, it -is- necessary for there to be wilderness-based groups operating consistently out of the city.  Internal strife is necessary
to a single-city state. And I don't mean a bunch of behind the curtain stuff.  Conflicts, alliances, and shifting loyalties need to be visible to more than just the schemers at the top; it's something for the populace as a whole to rule behind, and thus put actual impact on the diplomacy of every character, from the noble to the indie who
hangs out with different groups.

RE: Uber-stealth
Look.  Again, when people were calling out for the stealth classes to be mixed/muddled together or combined into a single rogue class, I talked about this.  They were well placed, before.  Pickpockets were inventory manipulators, but easier to track down or trap.  Burglars were the master stealthers, but struggled the most in conflict
and were really mediocre at using their strong stealth for much more than exactly what they had, which was break-ins.  Assassins were strong enough combatively, but were, truth be told, quite hard to establish an economy with and usually needed clans, associates, or patrons.  The class roll-out happened.  Everyone said just give it
a shot.  You're seeing the impact of having a class that can't be tracked by other classes well and has all the manipulation/inventory management/combat ability of the rogue classes from before, combined.  It's incredibly hard for anyone to deal with this class as an adversary, and you've hit the point that people are comfortable with
the security and knowledge that I told you would happen.  These classes are not well-designed.  At all.

RE: Gladiators and Slaves
It's okay for there to be lack of interest in a thing.  It really is.  Roles have always waxed and waned in this game.  -Relatively- recently, things have shifted much more towards 'active clan attention' for things like this, which has made it so that it's only open if it's open, and it's closed when it's closed.  Makes sense, right?
But let me remind you that there was a good period in time where almost all things were open, and where multiple groups were 'dead' at any single point in time.  But the playerbase shifted from place to place based off of how strength and interest shifted around the game.  I'd strongly suggest you stop leaning on role-calls and
direct sponsorship of clans to determine if people can play them or not.  My opinion and possibly misguided view is that we shifted things too far towards staff ease-of-use...we don't promote from in-clan nearly as much for leadership roles, it seems.  We gave oversight over an entire zone to staff teams instead of breaking it up by
clan so that inter-clan intrigue was actually possible.  We closed off roles based off staff interest instead of player interest.  It really didn't feel healthy.

RE:  Antagonist Roles
I played antagonist roles quite a bit.  Expecting things to go a certain way as an antagonist is a mistake...in a sense, realize right off the bat that you're going to be outnumbered and outgunned, and plan accordingly.  People want to know why antagonists are such assholes...it's because they are in one giant slog of an uphill
battle.  Eliminating an enemy is incredibly valuable when it comes to realizing that they have about fifteen different possible deaths waiting in the rafters.  This got far worse after the elimination of multiple clans performing overlapping roles.  Antagonists to one group are supposed to be protagonists for another group, and that
simply doesn't exist in many facets of the game anymore.  Antagonists are alone or next to alone unless they can manage to build something big themselves (which can end in true heartbreak) or they revise their mission statement to join one of a few factions still supported in the game.

In summary of those points that were brought up...'neat and tidy' organization of the game doesn't work well.  Faction-based conflict is important.  More smaller factions is better than a few big ones.  A few big ones allows more to have access to these events, but reduces the potential and number of unplanned events and long-term
events that make logging in every day feel like it needs to be done just so you don't miss something important to take advantage of.  And most importantly...we tend to write these things off as either a staff-sponsored problem or a player-perception problem.  The reality is that it's both.  Players can do wonders to create
play with what they're given...and staff can really facilitate things to move into a good game direction if they acknowledge that not every idea ends up as a good one, and will actually retract policy/administrative changes that are more stifling than helpful to the game, instead of just what feels better and easier from their end.

[wizturbo]

An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution.  I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts.  If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit...  just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you.  I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.

[triste]

An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution.  I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts.  If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit...  just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you.  I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.

At no point have I tried to silence anyone. Anyone is free to speak, including me. I just like asking for solutions and facts. I've tried to bring some facts and solutions myself; give more than you take you know? But you want me to be quiet. Sure. I'll be polite and go away a moment but I have every right to speak and you can't stop that, wiz.

[edit] People are asking me to be quiet, but still replying to me and asking questions and out of politeness I will reply when people reply to me.

[Dar]

An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution.  I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts.  If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit...  just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you.  I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.

At no point have I tried to silence anyone. Anyone is free to speak, including me. I just like asking for solutions and facts. I've tried to bring some facts and solutions myself; give more than you take you know? But you want me to be quiet. Sure. I'll be polite and go away a moment but I have every right to speak and you can't stop that, wiz.

It was in no way an attempt to silence you, Triste. Your reaction to these posts is making me personally, a little uncomfortable. We are all nerds who play MUDs here. Slow down, man. Many of your points are valid. But sloooow dooown.

No offence of any kind ment. And it weirds me out that I feel that I need to add that statement.