The Allanak Problem

[Greve]

So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?

[not goading, genuine questions]

Isn't it pretty obvious what my suggested solutions are? When I say "playing a soldier is boring because there's no military conflict," it's redundant to add "solution: create military conflict." When I point out that the lack of support for 'rinth elves has caused that area to die out, I don't need to explain that the solution is support for eastsiders. It should be obvious to anyone who isn't being wilfully obtuse.

[triste]

So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?

[not goading, genuine questions]

Isn't it pretty obvious what my suggested solutions are? When I say "playing a soldier is boring because there's no military conflict," it's redundant to add "solution: create military conflict." When I point out that the lack of support for 'rinth elves has caused that area to die out, I don't need to explain that the solution is support for eastsiders. It should be obvious to anyone who isn't being wilfully obtuse.

I didn't see a solution for the Byn, and several of the cases. How do we action on this? A lot of this is just stuff I've already proposed, as well as others, so how do we move forward? Vote?

[Sorry I know people asked me to be quiet I just need solutions]

[Greve]

The Byn will serve a purpose again when there is once more stuff to do that warrants hiring a mercenary company. It's not my job to say what that might be.

The noble houses will cease to be a pointless waste of space when there is once more stuff going on that justifies the existence of half a dozen purely political roles.

Same goes for GMHs, etc.

A lot of these problems come down to the fact that the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail and nothing really meaningful happens 99.999% of the time, leaving players with a game where the only thing going on is whatever they can build up from nothing. A lot of roles simply aren't equipped to do that (how can a soldier start a war?), and in order to build up anything that hasn't been done eight hundred times before (who really gives a shit about "indie merchant hiring hunters" #4932?), players require constant staff support which they almost never get.

In the face of such stagnation, it has become more appealing to just play ranger types who roam around and "explore" and dick around, since that is at least something to do, instead of participating in the roleplaying environment, particularly in a place like Allanak where the majority of clans prevent you from leaving the city at all.

[triste]

A lot of these problems come down to the fact that the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail and nothing really meaningful happens 99.999% of the time.

This is a particularly strong problem statement, and alas again I don't see a solution. This isn't a critique on you. I am just exhausted of these endless megathreads, and not only because things I don't like such as ad hominem attacks might creep up.

And because this is such a strong problem statement akin to the #deadgame meme, I just fervently want to find a solution. One possible solution I've mentioned is to put more power in the player's hands, EG, more opposing factions to drive military and mercenary conflict, or a city elf tribe to help revitalize C-Elves and the rinth, what have you. Myself, and so many people, including you, propose great ideas. But I caution on saying things like "It's not my job to say," and "the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail," without at least trying to offer a solution. And yes you offered some solutions but here again we have a black-and-white pessimistic statement about nothing happening 99.999% of the time. I would give Staff enough credit to say it's only 97% of the time.

[And BTW I love you all and just have a rare easy day at work but will try to stfu]

[Greve]

It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.

[Riev]

It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.

Now you're getting it.

[triste]

It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.

Now you're getting it.

Is that the problem then, that feedback isn't taken?

This thread is nearly identical, now, to the Content and Creation thread. There Staff volunteered kindly to be secretaries for us, itemizing the issues brought up, and responding to them.

Again I <3 this game for still existing, but I would love to no longer see 30 years of growing pains and a more organized way of solving the issues we observed. OP proposed blowing up Allanak which I applaud for being dramatic and creative at least.

[wizturbo]

Confrontational posts and complaints that staff don't listen do not help motivate anyone to spend their free time trying to improve things.  This "us" vs. "them" mentality on these boards is toxic and counter productive.

Rather than say the staff don't listen, which is completely false they read all these threads just like everyone else, the fact is there may be disagreement on these issues.  I certainly wouldn't want to engage in discussion with anyone behaving the way some are on this thread is... maybe if we lower the pitch forks it could get more productive?  It's a game we all love guys and gals...staff wouldn't spend the time if they didn't feel the same way.  Let's try to make a more inviting environment to encourage that discussion?

[Shabago]

A call for civil discourse.

What are your particular questions, Wizturbo? I'll go back through the whole of the thread once more and see who else posted something, asking for such.

**Edit to add, seems about a little past half, for various questions. Whether those questions were directed in hopes of a staff reply, or from the player base at large, I don't know. But I'll see about posting up some things after making a cheat sheet of them all.

[HeeBeeGB]

An example of why it's a difficult problem to solve through black and white measures:

Proposed Example of introducing more conflict around population centers:

-Yaroch and other farming villages are attacked every other RL day. A variation between raiders, ex-slaves, critters, and Northern Soldier NPCs. It isn't on a set schedule, just happens when it happens. Similar to the 'Jail Code', Templars/AoD are alerted when it happens. Better yet, it checks to see if X amount of people are on in the AoD before loading the program.

-Similar but with Luirs (Alerts GMH/Captain/Garrison of a Gith Attack), Morin's (Alerts...Tuluki?), and so on.

-Randomly loaded 'Labyrinth' NPCs in Allanak proper at night. Gives people a better reason to hire single Mercenaries to guard them to and from work and the bars. Gives AoD NPCs to capture/run down inside the city. Adds danger to otherwise non-dangerous streets.

-Allow the program to be manually toggled by a Storyteller, so they can instigate 'Yaroch Raid Program: Raiders/Slaves/Critters/Northerners' and it takes off.

Positives to the proposal:
-Gives people things to do, places to defend, things to work towards, and train for/against.
-Makes the world slightly less static.
-Gives a reason to log on every night, to see if it's 'Protect the Farmstead' RPT night.
-Allows Staff to instigate random encounters without too much backend/preparation.

The problem with such a proposal:
-Writing Code. Takes time, and takes time away from other projects. Difficult to balance without extensive testing.
-Gets old. Same NPCs/attacks ad nauseam will grow stale after a month or two, particularly if they can't be ended or stop through PC efforts.
-Dying to NPCs isn't as much fun as dying to PCs.
-A ton of effort for maybe not that much payoff.

This is just off the top of my head. What might seem like a good idea on paper, as you dive into it, begins to fall apart when trying to address the infrastructure of the game.

It's difficult. I agree that the Story of Armageddon maybe hasn't been as popping as it once was. But I get surprised during random encounters, or on some PC I'm playing, and have a fantastic experience that flies in the face of that. Sometimes things click, other times they really don't. I take more breaks than I used to, but that's probably a good thing. There is more competition than ever with Armageddon in the video game universe, and the line of 'I can tell the best stories in ArmageddonMUD because of my imagination and cooperative storytelling with other PCs' just doesn't seem to ring as true as it used to. Video games have gotten better, much better than in the late 90's/early 2000's. ArmageddonMUD has gotten incrementally better, particularly from the code side of things, but has otherwise just 'changed'. Some changes for the better, others for the worse, depending on who you ask, the list changes and differs.

I don't love playing in Allanak and never have, but with fewer options for places to play in, I find when I've bored of Wilderness Location/Luirs/etc I usually just take a break rather than playing there.

[wizturbo]

Hi Shabago.  I personally would love to hear the staff perspective on what Greve posted a little ways back.  Not saying that the post was diplomatic in its unpacking of the issues, but I personally agree with the ultimate diagnosis and would love to hear what the staff think there.  Is he (or she) accurately capturing an issue with the game, or do you guys see it differently?  Sometimes it's hard to parse out what's noise, and what are actually addressable issues.

[Shabago]

Gladiators were a gimmick, and no gimmick will revitalize Allanak as a sphere of play. The fundamental problem is that almost none of the traditional city-based concepts have any solid basis in today's gameplay. They're predicated on imaginary/virtual things. The things that were meant to be the "content" for those roles have been removed or never existed.

And why is that, do you figure? Because staff don't run all the NPCs on an endless basis?

It's not that interesting to embark on the role of a soldier when there hasn't been a war in many RL years False and no prospects of any in the future. Very False. It has become a life of patrolling the increasingly empty and uneventful streets. You're not a soldier, you're the neighborhood watch. You can play a soldier from recruitment to retirement and see no more action than the occasional batch of animated gith or raiders that were there for you to wipe out so you could feel at least a little bit relevant.

So I'm left to lament players back in the day who made this really, really false too. Gin? Amun? Gage? Even on back to Thrain, there were nobody PCs that were able to make certain the life of these people were never dull, and in return - those soldier pcs made certain their lives were never dull. Unless, of course, this is one of those "Staff never do things" stand-points, which Luirs and the PBRPT alone sort of counter.

It's pretty dull to play in the GMHs because they're now basically one big clan with no real friction between them, Ah, so PCs stopped trying to muscle in on territory, like the entire set up was done for? and their main base of operations is halfway across the world from Allanak. Well, their main base is actually 1/5th the size of holdings in Allanak, much like their wealth and political clout. Indeed, outside of Kurac, Salarr and Kadius are encourage to be in Allanak as much as possible for the vast population difference/realism of intended profits. There's nothing going on that merchants can really have an influence on, either. You know... like war profiteering and things like that? You have no opportunities to branch out into anything new because for some reason, merchant houses in Zalanthas are glued to the same industries throughout the entire history of the world. What happened to the Salarri Expansion Division? That was the golden age of GMHs, and that was a long time ago. Playing in a GMH now feels like working a retail job.


If we discard the Luirs Council, I suppose, and expansion further feeds into your point below - indies/pclans. So, GMH expands and now anyone wishing to create a PClan has all the nieces snapped up.

Indie merchants? What are they supposed to strive for? It takes a laughably long time to work your way toward a warehouse and trading company status. Once you have a few thousand 'sid, you discover that there isn't really anything to spend it on besides continuously paying people to leave you alone, which they will right up until there's any actual reason to stop leaving you alone, because that money you're paying them is worth way less to other players than the opportunities for conflict that everyone's so starved for.  Also nobody wants your crafted goods. There's no demand for any of the shit that unclanned crafters can offer, especially now that shops never reset and are bursting at the seams with equipment.

The latest MMH status holder and another approaching it would like a word here, I suspect.

There's no support whatsoever for the elven side of the 'rinth, and thus no players there, so the human side is left to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for someone to order some spice once a month just so they can feel like the Guild has a reason to exist.

For the better part of two years, the elven side of the Rinth was decimating the west. Mass population and interest, then died/dwindled out. Further, as referenced in other locations on the boards here, work is being done on a C-elf tribe by staff.

The Byn is a great introduction to the game's combat system, but what's the appeal for experienced players beyond a legal source of combat training? Far from gritty mercenaries, they've just become the guys that escort you from Allanak to Luir's. There's nothing else there. You can't do anything in this game anymore that warrants hiring a mercenary company save for pointless mini-quests like "go kill a silt horror."

You can't? Huh. So your rich merchant type can't pay them to go start a war with the CW? Luirs? A tribe? Maybe they laugh at you for not wanting to get killed. Maybe they take it, maybe you're out bid and get dead yourself.

Nobles have nothing to work with because the world stands still. Currently really false. The hierarchy of houses never changes It has. so there's no competition to speak of, there's no enemy city to interact with, there's no platform for political actions. Such as? What political actions are you after? I can currently think of at least 6 political deals that occurred across the Known for said Houses, two "trials", a political assassination, two new things Houses make/present and so on. Of all the various nobles I've seen pop up in recent years, they have a 100% track record of being seen in public once or twice when new and are then never heard from again. Do they? I seem to recall some very long lived, super invested and plot starting nobles/Templars within that time period. Was effort made to make contact with them through an aide or Way directly? Outside of the Arboretum, it would be a little odd for Noble X to just sit in Reds all week so people know they exist. And still more noble houses keep opening. None of them are based on ideas that you can just log in and work on on a random afternoon, you're perpetually waiting for a response to your requests. It's not like you can just log in and go work on your festival or sewer project when it suits you. It's almost like a play-by-post experience.

Blood Market, Ocotillo Fest, A potential territory take over, a massive risky/expensive expedition outside the walls, and various internal character growth wants, or House directed goals have all been seen here, within that time frame mentioned.

Hunters? Well, the GMHs no longer have hunting divisions, And yet still steadily need and by from said hunters. so it's just a life of collecting shells and hides to sell to whatever crafter needs them in order to skill up leatherworking and armormaking. Keeping fed is a complete non-issue in this game so there's no sense of hunting to bring home the bacon, you're just amassing piles of skinned crap and hoping someone will take those twenty scrab shells off your hands at some point. RP out finding contracts before you start over hunting for said items? Without actual clan positions, the role of a hunter in Armageddon is most akin to that of a gold farmer in WoW.

I could keep adding to this list but I won't. The point is that for most of the game's built-in city-based roles, the supposed reason to play that role turns out to be completely artificial and not supported or backed up by any actual demand for it. Make that demand. On either side of the coin. The same problem existed with some of the discontinued clans as well, such as the Borsail Wyverns, a clan of slavers in a game where enslavement isn't possible. That clan was wisely shut down as the role was simply incompatible with the game, but as more and more layers have been peeled off of ArmageddonMUD, What has been taken away, save Tuluk? A new Delf tribe was made, the Muark came back, more Houses were open, and something else was added that some folks haven't found yet. More content has gone in, rather than out. a similar fate has befallen almost all roles. As a result, people make characters that are simply free to dick around, which usually means characters that aren't tied to the city of Allanak.

I suppose that will ensure the problem is never fixed then, if everyone wants to run off into the corners and never find interaction, tell a story or play the bad guy and instead wait for someone else to do it?

So, perspective and view done on some things there, which generally falls on the player side of things. Now for the staff side. No, absolutely not are we perfect and never will be. We try and continue to try to inject X and Y into Z for different people, regardless of where they play. There have been RPTs, plot hooks and animations and there will continue to be more of the same. A few months back, I remember outright asking/telling people that if they wanted to attempt X to let us know and try to work with us. 2-3 players decided to do so and /things changed/ - all three gained support. So, please - if you see a hole the story, fill it. Or fill it on your next pc. Take some creative ownership of your own shared experiece. Armageddon is a collaborative story that ever continues to move on, but that has to be done from both sides of the fence and both taking accountability of what does and doesn't happen. Fwiw, I and the rest of the team continue to have ideas for bigger things, changes, rpts, and goals at large. I'll hope to see some of you seeking to be part of them.

[Alesan]

I know this is unrelated to the topic at hand, but blue text is really hard to read on a dark theme.

[DesertT]

ETA:  Damn You Shabago for posting before I could get this posted!!

The problem isn't with Allanak.  The problem is with the players (if the shoe fits, wear it).

Recently (within the last 6 months), an event was held in Allanak that had multiple pieces that people could enjoy.  There was something for everyone to do and if your character wasn't necessarily allowed in IC'ly, there were still opportunities for you to insert your character or take advantage of a number of events, yet people whined up and down that they were robbed from participating because it was only meant for those with money or of a certain race.  NO, YOUR Character didn't have enough money to participate, however, there were a number of events that didn't require money.  BUT THEN you had people respond with, "I'm not good at story-telling, joke-telling, fighting, brawling, drinking, WHATEVER!!"  All they did was come up with lame excuses about how they didn't fit precisely into most events, so they didn't participate, so they complain.

!!!MAYBE THE GAME IS DULL BECAUSE YOU ARE DULL!!!

Look, YOU need to take initiative.  Find a problem that you want addressed and start addressing it IC'ly.

"There needs to be more antagonists!!"  -  Play an antagonist.  There are far too many ways to do this.

"There needs to be conflict between *whoever*!!"  -  Create conflict between whoever by whatever means.  Again, way too easy.  Join one of the clans you want to see conflict in and start driving things that way.

"Allanak barely has a population of players!!"  -  Play an interesting character that others want to play and interact with.  Start something -OR- join someone else's interesting character and work together.

"Thieves steal all my stuff when I sit in taverns!!"  -  Don't bring all your valuables to the tavern.  How many of you in real life take thousands of dollars with you to the club when you know you're just going to get half-wasted and lewd?  YOU DON'T!!  Don't do it in game!!

"People need a reason to come to Allanak."  -  Play an indie crafter in Nak.  Apply for a Noble or even a Bastard and start to make things happen.  The coin has to be worth the risk though, or start bartering!!

YOU CAN make your own fun and start your own goals.

There was a gemmed (I think a year ago) that paid to have a Gith captured alive so they could see if they could communicate with it.  For those that participated, that was a fun evening.  And that is something oh so very minor. 

I've requested to start making changes in the game that my character did not realize, but was realized by a character that they influenced.  VERY COOL!!  (even if I'm a little jealous)

Every time I've requested changes or tried to make changes, Staff has addressed my efforts and either made the change, or it was worked by someone else who saw the fruits of my labors.  There have been other issues that they've told me No on as well.

Currently, I put in my character reports how I'm trying to create mini-plots, like I did with my too-recent Byn SGT, and guess what, people jump in with you on your mini-plots!!

TL;DR  If you create/play an interesting character, people will come to play with you.

[SodaDogARM]

I suppose that will ensure the problem is never fixed then, if everyone wants to run off into the corners and never find interaction, tell a story or play the bad guy and instead wait for someone else to do it?

Is there discussion as to why people are running into corners on the staff level then? More specifically why player led conflict is having trouble flourishing in a visible and engaging way.

When I started a year and a half ago the big names that everyone knew were two touched non-humans running their own successful gangs, a rogue magicker and his group grudging against gemmed Allanakis, an organized band of mundanes in the north with a nuanced leader and agenda, a well known cannibal sewer mutant, and some mundane breed wanted across the known that people thought was immortal. All grey antagonists, all fruitful in their endeavors to establish themselves as producers and summoners of conflict, all well entrenched over a healthy period of time. Additionally they all represented different realms of the game and at one point in time coexisted entirely. To my knowledge, since then those "big names" have turned into X number of sorcerers. Period. Throw one mul in there. There have been many mini-conflicts and of course great smaller antagonists in the meantime, but as a continually worldly player since then I can say with some certainty not one has reached the level of those mentioned towards the start in terms of recognition or weight.

There has to be some thoughts as to why these conflict creating individuals had the footing to do what they did in that period of time and why individuals are failing to find that footing today, or plain not seeking it. I've discussed my theories earlier in this thread but I'd be interested in hearing what you and other staff members think.

[Spiceoflife]

I just think losing all your weapons in 20 seconds is the bad thing, I don't care if you steal my coins, food etc just when you take every damn weapon I am carrying in minutes grinds my gears.

[Pew Pew]

It was in no way an attempt to silence you, Triste. Your reaction to these posts is making me personally, a little uncomfortable. We are all nerds who play MUDs here. Slow down, man. Many of your points are valid. But sloooow dooown.

No offence of any kind ment. And it weirds me out that I feel that I need to add that statement.

Thank you for saying what I could not without sounding and coming off as offenseive.

[Lotion]

This is an open question for staff in general that is in response to a statement made by Brokkr.

The game is at its best when there is a mix of different interests in what the game has to offer, and a variety of different play styles actively participating (social, combat, explorer, plotter, politic focused, etc.).  As soon as there is a shift, in any direction, of one "meta" or play style or whatever you want to call it as being predominant, the game suffers, IMHO.

Does staff try to keep track of how effectively Arm serves all of the different interests and take action if one of them becomes too over-centralizing in a way that negatively affects the girth of the others?

[Fredd]

For the record, at least half my characters are someone's bad guy. The other half are hunters.

[Gentleboy]

This thread is interesting because a lot of older players have different solutions than newer players. Just thought that was a cool thing.

[mansa]

In my opinion,

A lot has changed, but the story of the world is lacking in the publication of world events, so to the public face it seems like very little has changed.

I would push to have more public knowledge of ongoing events in the game from 6 months ago.   If a noble, 6 months ago, did something cool, I'd want it to be shared somewhere, even if they were still alive 6 months later.  I mean, other than logging in and reading the IC rumor boards - how else am I to know that there was two public trials, a political assassination, house fale is now top tier, and the eastside elven tribes now run the guild.

[wizturbo]

I also had no idea anything changed.  The "find out IC" nature of the game keeps a lot of us uninformed...  sounds like a lot of cool stuff isn't being noticed by the ever growing "dormant" portion of the player base.  Would it be a bad idea to maybe have an out of game rumors board people could see?  It would last longer than in-game boards, and could be an easier way to keep people "in the know".  Maybe just have it be in Discord?

[Alesan]

I honestly don't see the secretive, "Find out IC" nature of the game changing anytime soon. It'll continue to make the game look dead to anyone who isn't in the know enough to be aware of things. But that seems to be the way things are intended to be.

If you want to know things, you have to actively get involved in them. Otherwise the information just does not trickle outward.

[Gentleboy]

But we find out most of our information OOCLY on the discord when people talk about shit that happened.

[Hauwke]

Years after the fact.