Combat

[JollyGreenGiant]

I mentioned in another thread that I'd like to see combat drain endurance.  I thought about it a bit more, and figured the idea could use some fleshing out.  In no particular order, here are my thoughts.

1. Add an armor_use skill.  Similar to shield_use, the skill is invoked whenever you take a blow to see if your armor deflects or partially deflects the hit.  Armor would have a maximum capacity for deflection based on how protective it is.  The lesser of the capacity and user's skill would be used for the skill check.

2. Drain random amounts of stamina every time something occurs in combat.  A base attack might cost 0-2 stamina.  That number could be modified based on encumbrance (very light might drop the cost to 0-1, while very heavy might be 2-4), based on style (single weapon, no modifier, dual wield either increases or decreases the base depending on the skill level, same for two-handed), and based on a comparison of the heaviest armor worn to the armor_use skill.  This would allow people who always wear heavy armor to get used to wearing it, eventually not tiring as much from its use.  Wearing heavy armor would always result in an increase in the rate of loss due to encumbrance, but would lessen as the armor_use skill improves.

3. Special moves like disarm, kick, and bash also drain stamina, perhaps in a fixed amount that decreases marginally as the skills improve.

4. Have flee decrease stamina as if the person actually succeeded in moving, even if they didn't or were breaking a subdue.

5. Have subdue drain stamina, perhaps even draining a little bit every time the subdued fails a flee attempt.

6. When your stamina hits zero, your skills suffer.  Once your stamina is gone, you begin losing stun instead of stamina, eventually passing out.

My numbers are just randomly picked.  There ought to be a chance that no stamina is drained for a regular combat round for a lightly armored, unencumbered fighter, the way I see it.  Heavily armored fighters should be able to take blows better, but tire more quickly.

Comments?

[John]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't combat already drain stamina? I remember a problem where people couldn't flee because they had worn themselves out fighting.

[mansa]

Combat right now doesn't Drain stamina.  But Failing a 'flee' does.

[Anonymous]

Elves would rule the day.

I've thought about combat draining stamina myself and while it really makes sense for realism, I think it would detract from the cinematic nature (for lack of a better phrase) of a fight.

Who wants to lose a fight because you got tired first and the other guy just steps one room away and starts peppering you with arrows?

If my guy is going to die, I want it to be a direct result of getting his ass kicked.  It's his final moment.  I want to go down in a blaze of glory, not needing a nap.

[I Have Steel]

I agree with CRW, and wouldn't you think trying to 'survive by the sword' is already rough enough in the game? Putting such a hamper on compbat would pretty much kill a lot of people's love for the combat oriented classes, imo.

[Ueda]

I can't decide I know if I didn't play elves alot I would hate the idea. j/k bad idea for ueda!

[gfair]

The idea of losing stamina in a fight has perfectly reasonable merits - fighting is an incredibly draining experience.  You can go hand-to-hand for an extremely short time, rapidly decreasing based on the weight of your armor and weapons.

Another idea, or question:  Should the rate of endurance loss be higher when you miss, or hit?  It should also decrease with skill, and there should be a factor influencing the loss when comparing one PC's skill to another, because two inexperienced fighters can get ragged in fighting, the swordmaster can whoop the student without breaking a sweat, and two masters can fight for a long time because they are both conserving themselves and have many years of training, but they can still become very tired when fighting someone close to their experience level.

How many of you watch hockey?  Ever seen a hockey team get tired at the end of a game?  Or how about a team after three overtime sessions?

Same thing goes for wrestling and water polo - the top two most extensively exhausting sports around.

Fighting is far more draining than any sport, because of the constant use of arms, legs, and presence of heavy armor and the weight of weapons.  Also the level of stress and adrenaline, adrenaline is incredibly draining after the threat has passed, so multiple engagements can wipe out a person, even if those engagements are brief.


That's one of the luckiest thing people have going for them in Arm right now, is the fact that combat doesn't drain endurance.  In Arm, that would be deadly, but if Arm were a real world there would be huge drains, particularly wearing heavy armor, using a big weapon like an etwo-only, and in the desert.

Would it impact the fighting classes? Of course, it's combat being discussed.  It would limit the amount of fighting people could do, they couldn't go for huge periods every day.  They couldn't fight for three hours straight, as I've seen plenty of PCs do.  It might make people lighten up on the armor in the south, because a full suit of shell or bone should be very tiresome to wear in the game while training, and fighting.


I like the idea, but without something to balance it out it would be.. well, imbalanced without an offsetting skill like physical training.  It should be possible to increase endurance with physical training, which would permit people to increase their capacity for physical exercise on a decreasing scale.

Do we need both skills?  I'd say yes based on how they would enhance the impact and payoff of physical activity.  Elves would not be king/queen at fighting, they aren't now, groups with extreme endurance like Dwarves, Muls, Half-Giants would be king/queen, and two of those are karma races, and the Dwarf is a borderline race.

On the other hand, if those two serve to balance each out both being variable, then there is also the argument to leave them out, and the balance will be there somewhat.  I like the ideas, but will let the staff decide how much they are needed.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Realistically it makes perfect sense, I doubt anyone is arguing that, but everyone's main gripe seems to be playability.

How's about if during combat, yes, you do lose stamina, but perhaps at a slow rate and only to certain point? That is, every time it's your character's round or you perform something 'special' (flee, rescue, subdue, kick, bash, disarm, etc.) you have a chance of losing a minute amount of stamina (only a point or two). Take this, stretch it over a couple of IC hours of combat, and your character has probably lost a good chunk of his stamina.

Then, for the sake of playability, perhaps we could limit the amount of stamina lost due to combat (realistically you could argue that if you're fighting for your life with adrenaline crackling through your bloodstream, you wouldn't want to suddenly lie down and take a nap). Maybe make it so that a character's stamina doesn't drop past 50%? 25%? The rest of it, therefore, would have to be lost through fleeing or traveling through rough terrain. Sound fair?

I think it'd be great ICly. For example...
The wussy merchant twink lightly pierces the elven raider d00d.

The elven raider d00d slashes the wussy merchant twink on the neck.

The other elven raider d00d bludgeons the wussy merchant twink on the head, wounding him.

The wussy merchant twink panics and attempts to flee.
The wussy merchant twink runs to the east.

The elven raider d00d says in allundean, bending over to inspect the bloody ground:
"Damn! We'll have to go after him and be sharp, I don't want a witness getting the militia on our tail."

The other elven raider d00d says in allundean:
"Don't worry, we've been fighting that roundear for hours... He couldn't have gone far.

The other elven raider d00d crouches down and looks for tracks.

[JollyGreenGiant]

What I hoped a stamina drain during combat would address is this.  One, people who just deck themselves out in the heaviest armor they can reasonably wear.  Two, fights that go on for hours on end with neither combatant suffering any coded ill effects.  Three, people running around the outdoors and then jumping into a fight as if they haven't been running around the desert all day.

RP only addresses the issue to a limited extent, since your coded combat skills will never suffer as a result of your fatigue.

An alternate to stamina loss that I thought of later is this - what if combat just increased your rate of dehydration, modified up for encumbrance and down for how skilled you are?  I think that would address all of the above issues rather neatly, although I still think an armor_use skill would help.  Heavily armored people would, through the armor_use skill be able to minimize the ill effects of wearing all that armor, eventually, and to some extent, but would still suffer for it.  Combat that went on for a long time could theoretically end with one of the combatants just dropping from dehydration.  And running around outdoors all day and then jumping into combat could prove fatal.

[creeper386]

It'd be realistic, it'd even solve alot of current problems. It'd make alot more though. Just for the fact that it would create a fair downtown for anyone in combative roles. Even if it's just five-ten minutes of sitting around after every fight it's going to add up to massive amounts of down time. It ends up fairly silly. For the most part, if your outside the city either you have a mount or rest very often anyways. Inside the city is the only real place most the time you can flee from a battle and expect to get away on foot.

What I would like to see though. Is a way to allow a mutual disengage, first of all, and make fleeing set a timer up so you have to run for a certain amount of time. It'd cut down ALOT on the flee w;walk;w;w;w;w;w and shit that some people use to get away and thats they main problem with combat not taking stamina. Also include in this some sort of flag to denote the room a training room so even if you flee you don't have to way on the timer.

But thats just me.

Creeper thinks changing it so the stamina minuses in combat would give it a huge unskilled look on things and make it like Diablo mindless clicking.

[John]

Creeper thinks changing it so the stamina minuses in combat would give it a huge unskilled look on things and make it like Diablo mindless clicking.

Why? People would actually have to use more skill and strategy to survive.

[creeper386]

The strategy is going to be who can use the code to their advantage the most. Who runs out of stamina first most likely will win. It'd make getting away from raiders or gith impossible. As they'd keep you in combat long enough and then your just tired.

The combat code would have to be WAY more advanced then it is now to make it reasonable in my eyes. It wouldn't change much except to make things lame and to kill much more PCs. It'll make it so that someone that is old is that much more powerful. Already PCs can become dangerous powerhouses. Don't need them to be untouchable to other PCs just to go out and be slaughtered by a group of NPCs because of the stamina code.

Things aren't really balanced and working to well with the combat system already, it'd make it that much more akward to introduce that sort of thing.

I see it as a playability issue also. You can't play if you die or are resting all the time.

Creeper

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves would rule the day.

You aren't just wrong, you are completely and utterly wrong.  In every way that there possibly is to be wrong, you are wrong.  Since the opposite is in fact true.  Code like this would hurt elves more than any other race.  Think about it for a moment.  What race relies on their stamina more than an elf?  They are the one and only MOUNTLESS RACE, and desert elves in particular would take a beating.  Every arguement I've seen so far seems to be completely forgetting the fact that most people can just hop on their kanks and ride away, ride skill be willing.

You also seem to have forgotten that elves no longer have the massive stamina bonus they once did.  Their stamina points are no better (worse actually because of their inferior endurance) than any other race.

Wouldn't you think trying to 'survive by the sword' is already rough enough in the game?

No.  Nothing is easier to play in the game than a human warrior.

Just for the fact that it would create a fair downtown for anyone in combative roles.

Oh no, I have to rest five to ten minutes after I spar.  Whatever shall I do.  But that's beside the point.  If the stamina recovery even precluded the hp recovery, which is already in place, which I doubt... then it wouldn't likely preclude it by much.

For the most part, if your outside the city either you have a mount or rest very often anyways.

If you go outside the city without a mount, then you deserve to die.  And that's all there is to it.  Making something that's already a completely idiotic and suicidal idea even more of a bad idea, can only be a good thing in my opinion.

What I would like to see though. Is a way to allow a mutual disengage.

I agree.  Mutual disengage would be a great companion to this idea.

Anyway, to sum up my own opinion, I believe that a change such as this could only add to the game, and would have no playability issues.  It would make endurance more of a worthwhile combat attribute (right now I don't know why I even bother to look at it when I reroll), it would help moderate sparring by forcing people to RP their weariness, and it would make combat just a little bit more brutal and merciless.  The only playability issues I can see is if two people spar for too long and then neither can flee.  They probably deserve what they get though, since they ought to pay more attention to their stamina.

The other is that elves would have a MUCH harder time.  This is the only arguement that I see as worthwhile, and I'm suprised nobody else has brought it up yet.

Remember, people grumbled when skill percentages were taken out.  Change is not always bad.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I fully support the implementation of such an idea. Combat would become much more strategic, and folks would have to pay much sloer attention. Also, strength would no longer be the most coveted stat, and indeed, on Zalanthas, it should not be. Endurance is much more applicable to such a dangerous, deadly world.

[spawnloser]

Um EvilRoeSalad...do you realize that even though elves are mountless, they still can still ambush people and start with about double anyone else's stamina so that they have the definite advantage.  Think about it from both sides.  Use your advantages wisely and you shall slaughter all those who oppose you.

[Bestatte]

I see some problems with adding a stamina drain to combat, though I also understand and agree with the reason behind the idea.

The biggest problem that I can see is with scheduled sparring. You're already limited as to how much real-time you're allowed to spar if you're in clans that have schedules and sparring circles.

When the morning sparring match is over, you don't have time to sit ten real-life minutes, because it's now time to head over to gate-watch, or barracks-cleaning, or active patrol of the city, or whatever.

If you cut the sparring short ten minutes, you might as well not bother having it at all, because early morning only lasts 15, five of which usually involves getting your practice weapon and roleplaying your stretching and discussing the morning's lesson.

I see a lot of issues regarding sparring that could be improved, but none of them have anything to do with stamina drain, so that's all I'm gonna address here.

[X-D]

Not that I mind much the idea of stamina drain in combat, but if you are going to do it for realism then you simply are not going to like the results.

First, it would actually increase the advantage high str chars already have, and if I need to explain that, well, it will be pretty sad.

Second in armed combat who is going to move about more and use up more stamina/energy, an armored warrior or a unarmared warrior?

Fact is, an armored warrior only needs to move enough to make sure that any blows are not direct damaging blows, to an un-armored warrior, all blows are direct and damaging, an armored warrior can stand and parry some blows, move a bit to make sure a blow is not square and otherwise rely on his armor to protect him. And truthfully, standing or riding in armor costs no more energy then without.

Now, weapons, here is the real clincher, currently a weak elf and a strong mul can both use the same weapon in combat for the same amount of time, say A nice big ep only axe, put stamina drain in and that has to change, now the elf has always had to use lighter armor, but now he must also use a lighter weapon or else he will be drained too quickly, meanwhile the mul stays in super heavy armor knowing that it will deflect light weapon blows from weak chars and he can either keep using heavy weapons or, since his opponents have to wear light armor anyway, switch to lighter faster weapons.

And then you have to deal with npc/animal balance, somebody would have to go through and fix all of them, most animals in the game have a huge amount of stamina compared to the pc's.

And in the end, after a huge amount of work and coding, you would find that nothing has really changed, only the way you go about it....

HHhhmmm, on second thought, considering how much I like dwarves and how fast they regen stam/stun/hp, maybe this is a good idea, a couple dwarves could get in twice as much sparring as most other races in the same ic day.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I say with perhaps a few minor advancements, this is one of the best ideas that I have ever heard. Put simply, one spar a morning is more than enough. AND, it does not take that damned long to fucking regenerate move points.

Make stamina figure into combat. Forget all the styles and so forth. This will force folks to discover styles. I really like it.

[John]

standing or riding in armor costs no more energy then without.

What makes you say that? I've talked to people who do that renaissence roleplaying stuff, and they CONSTANTLY comment on how at first the armour is a lot. It restricts movement and is exhausting as well.

A problem is that someone avoiding blows AND hitting is going to lose more stamina then someone with good armour just standing there and taking the armour. UNLESS the armour/weight combination was tweaked. If someone has heavy armour on, they shouldn't be able to parry as much, so I should be able to get in more critical blows (sliding inbetween the armour) then someone who has more armour on.

[X-D]

What makes you say that? I've talked to people who do that renaissence roleplaying stuff, and they CONSTANTLY comment on how at first the armour is a lot. It restricts movement and is exhausting as well.

First, 12 years SCA now, tons of combat and very good armor, much heavier then most wear, second, key words are "at first" you get used to it very quickly, and that is just a normal terran human, not a super zalanthan, second, I said standing and riding.

And someone in heavy armor does not -need- to parry as much, one need only deflect the blow enough that it glances off the armor, this also gives the armored fighter an advantage in that they can recover from a parry faster.

Fact is, people bringing this idea up keep talking realism, fine, be realistic, un-armored combat is far more dangerouse and draining then armored, I know, I also fight in the local live steel group, very light armor if any and real swords, axes, maces etc.

[JollyGreenGiant]

As far as sparring matches go, I really don't see this having much of an effect on them.  There are really only a few types of sparring matches.  One, an unbalanced match.  Newbie warrior gets his butt handed to him in about three hits, has to sit down and regen hp.  This change wouldn't impact that kind of match at all.  Two, a balanced match where damage is being dealt fairly regularly.  Some impact, the more skilled of the two won't be able to just go through a string of slightly less skilled partners, they'll eventually have to sit down and take a breather and yield the floor.  I don't see how that's really a big deal.  Three, a balanced match where two people go at it for three hours.  This happens far too often, and I think forcing people to break off and sit out (and yield the floor) is a good idea, not a bad one.

As far as it changing strategies, of course it will.  Ideally, this change would enable a lightly armed and armored foe to wear down a heavily armed and armored foe, gaining a slow advantage as the heavily armored guy wears out, but fully knowing that it only takes a couple good hits from the heavy hitter to put the lightweight out of business.

As far as elves are concerned, most of them wear light armor and have stamina bonuses.  It could make them really good, it could make them really bad, I don't think anyone will know unless the change gets made, to be honest.

It's definitely a change that would require some playtesting and balancing, but in the end, I think it would really open up possibilities in the combat system for different styles of fighting.

[God]

Realistically, you catch your breath very quickly. Nearly instanenously, especially when you consider the time ratio. The longer-term endurance takes a lot more effort to drain, and I've hardly ever been at the point where I cannot move at -all-. The code doesn't take that into account. Just a thought.

The point is, a couple spars would drain you of tons of endurance or whatever, but really, you're just losing your breath. You shouldn't have to rest for two IC hours to recover.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Um EvilRoeSalad...do you realize that even though elves are mountless, they still can still ambush people and start with about double anyone else's stamina so that they have the definite advantage.  

Elves no longer have double stamina, huge amounts of stamina, or any great amount of stamina at all compared to a human.  They have a stamina proportionate to their endurance.  The days where desert elves had 300+ stamina are gone forever, thanks to a fairly recent code change.

I said this in my last post and will say it again as many times as necessary.

That being said, elves pulling off a raid in the imaginary world where combat causes a stamina drain would go something like this.  The elves rest, regaining all their stamina.  Then they set up an ambush point.  Humans come along and a fight ensues.  If the elves kick the humans ass, then the humans have their kanks and can easily flee, because the elves have tired themselves out from fighting, and the humans have a stamina supply that hasn't been tapped into at all during the combat (their mounts).  If the elves don't have the upper hand and begin to lose the fight, then they will have less stamina from the fight, and thus the humans will be able to pursue them more easily.

Lets take another example in this imaginary world of ours.  An elf goes hunting.  She runs around looking for something to kill, losing a considerable amount of stamina.  Then she finds something.  If its an auto-flee creature, and she doesn't have any way to catch it besides chasing it, then she can give up then and there.  Because even if she runs it down to no stamina, she'll have so little stamina herself that starting a fight will be too dangerous.  If it isn't an auto-flee creature, then she fights it, defeats it, and loses another chunk of stamina.  Now she can't get to safety because she's too low in stamina, and thus is forced to rest where she is now, open to attack and regaining her stamina slowly because she hasn't gotten indoors.

[Stroker]

Sex causes stamina drain as well, how would you figure that into the code, huh, huh? Some things are left to the player's imagination, leave the code out of this, you dirty, dirty, monkeys.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Sex isn't coded.  Combat is.