Let's Get Our Quota!!!!! Why PKing?

[titansfan]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail. Hope ya'll have a great day!

Thanks in advance!

[Alesan]

To prevent the other person from escaping and/or further causing unreasonable problems to the offended character.

[Khorm]

i've always thought that pk reflects the fact that life is cheap on zalanthas.

i DO think that not pk creates more interesting scenarios for me personally, and i maybe have ten pk tops across 16 years, but... i generally expect to be pk at all times.

my guy is like an insignificant grain of sand in this huge world, and if he presents a barrier to success for someone else.. it's probably gonna happen. resources are scarce - get yours. death, and by extension pk, always struck me as thematic elements of the game.

[rinthrat]

Why not? I'd rather die to another player than in any other way. So I just don't agree with the sentiment that a 'different solution' is the preferable way to go about it.

There is also this situation - some PCs make it very clear that they will never stop being a problem just because. No matter what you do. There is some insistence to 'create conflict' purely out of the OOC motivation to 'create conflict', because 'conflict is good for the game'. So players keep it up even if it makes no sense ICly at all. At the same time, this OOC insistence makes it impossible to come up with IC resolutions. This is not fun, or good for the game, it's just exhausting and frustrating.

[Riev]

The general feeling I've gotten over the years is this:

NOT Killing someone - More story and fun interaction, but they are still alive and can cause more distractions and disturbances to your daily routines. Can be fun to have an enemy, but superiors wonder why you don't just 'take care of it'.

Killing someone - You no longer have to worry about retaliation. You have solved the problem. Someone else may come along that is more willing to work with you, because you killed the previous one.

[Namino]

I've said it before and I'll say it now. The problem isn't the PKs. It's HOW the PKs happen, or fail to happen.

There's never a titanic struggle, two people sliding down the face of a dune wrestling for a knife. There's never a beaten but unbowed warrior streaming blood from a dozen wounds, barring the way as the noblewoman he was guarding flees with a swaddled babe in her arms. There's never a "I want my father back you son of a bitch" after a last ditch effort.

If someone dies, it's because of a locked apartment, a heramide blowdart, a peraine knife. These don't tell me anything compelling.

And if someone gets away, it's never a breathless chase down the alleyways, parrying over your shoulder as you run. Nobody's ever jumping from rooftop to rooftop. There's no wagons careening on two wheels, both drivers lashing the reins as the arrows fly.

It's you put yourself in delay without incapacitating your target, they spam flee and are four or five rooms in front by the time your delay clears.

The code prevents PKs from telling compelling stories, relying on instant resolution one way or the other. The story of betrayal that led to that point might be fascinating but the actual kills are fucking lame, bro. Even MY PKs felt lame and two dimensional and that was when I was winning. I didn't feel any damn triumph heramiding people.

That's why blackmail appears more fun. Because it offers a lot more depth than the PK meta. It spools out over time. A PK is just a momentary blip in the current iteration. If the code is ever updated to favor less boring meta, then PK is probably going to stop feeling so damn lame.

[roughneck]

The visceral, thrilling experience of PK contest in a high personal investment, perma-death game. I've never found a gaming experience that delivers the same high.

[Is Friday]

One of the reasons why I don't PK often is because it's terribly simplistic and unsatisfying unless it accompanies a rivalry of some sort. It's really just there for cheap thrills. Sort of lowest common denominator fun most of the time.

[Dune Bunny]

I've only had one PK that was satisfying in my memory, over a long time of play, and it was less of a coded PK, and more of the end of a story for a character on their way out that I assisted with.

If it can be avoided, most of my characters will gladly defer to not killing, over killing. I think a lot of it is in line with what Namino posted, but also I think I may just be a big softie about characters living, and wanting to see what comes of the story. (This has backfired on me a few or two times! )

I've never once in over a decade of play outright killed someone without warning or giving them a chance to roleplay, and imagine I never will, it'd leave me feeling very cheap, and like I'd robbed the opposite player of a moment. (Even if it has backfired on me!) Having been killed without warning out in the sands a few times before, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and I couldn't do that without feeling terrible for it. This might be why my combat characters tend to be spectacular failures! XD

[titansfan]

Awesome answers already! I was going to do a poll but I like that I didn't and left it open to freeform reasoning.  I stand with Namino and Dune Bunny. I'm primarily a PVE Arm player in the sense I like rivalries and conflict with PCs, but I don't like killing PCs unless its absolutely necessary or plotted out over time. Meeting some random person in the desert and taking their life just to loot them...not fun. Raiding them or watching them flee off into the distance,  much more satisfying for me. I won't hesistate to sap next time I recognize them out there, but still won't kill them.  Love bludgeoning weapons for that reason.

[roughneck]

We play Arm for compelling stories. PK is a huge part of it. Blood feuds, House rivalries, bounties, tribal wars, crime - PK makes them feel real and compelling.

I'll agree that PK just for the sake of it is lame.

[Bogre]

I think, for one, because it's -really- hard to kill someone unless you completely ace someone, so people lean towards doing it fast, with little attention to the scene of a fight or pursuit. People are also very reluctant to leave rivals alive, for fear of that same quick and un-defendable retaliation. I've been on the delivering and receiving end of quick deaths, and also of mercy, and I can definitely say the mercy has always generally worked out for the winner - usually because their story / reputation / etc expands. I've never gone back to PK someone who's shown my character mercy in the past, or thankfully had it come back to bite me on the other side. But I think that's the big worry.

(Now, I've had some epic battles - when as a PC gith, we chased some fleeing elves through the canyons, up down and fighting across the mesas. But they then got a bit frightened, I think, because the next time I just got a perained blade and killed. Ho-hum. )

The other thing limiting any kind of intimidation/raiding/leaving someone broken but alive is the real lack of ability to obscure one's description. Disguises don't really work: the second someone looks at you, you might as well be painted to that PC's superior / friend / lover / nearest available Sergeant/Templar. Not many folks will avoid the shady hood or mask and opt for at -least- hoping for revenge.

Some things I think will help PVP conflict:

- Slowdown on latency to disability / death with certain things.
- Ability to really disguise yourself.
- Threaten skill / use was a great addition.
- Players leaning towards using other options than the kill button. Death is gonna happen, but encouraging other realistic outcomes is good too.

[titansfan]

I think, for one, because it's -really- hard to kill someone unless you completely ace someone, so people lean towards doing it fast, with little attention to the scene of a fight or pursuit. People are also very reluctant to leave rivals alive, for fear of that same quick and un-defendable retaliation. I've been on the delivering and receiving end of quick deaths, and also of mercy, and I can definitely say the mercy has always generally worked out for the winner - usually because their story / reputation / etc expands. I've never gone back to PK someone who's shown my character mercy in the past, or thankfully had it come back to bite me on the other side. But I think that's the big worry.

(Now, I've had some epic battles - when as a PC gith, we chased some fleeing elves through the canyons, up down and fighting across the mesas. But they then got a bit frightened, I think, because the next time I just got a perained blade and killed. Ho-hum. )

The other thing limiting any kind of intimidation/raiding/leaving someone broken but alive is the real lack of ability to obscure one's description. Disguises don't really work: the second someone looks at you, you might as well be painted to that PC's superior / friend / lover / nearest available Sergeant/Templar. Not many folks will avoid the shady hood or mask and opt for at -least- hoping for revenge.

Some things I think will help PVP conflict:

- Slowdown on latency to disability / death with certain things.
- Ability to really disguise yourself.
- Threaten skill / use was a great addition.
- Players leaning towards using other options than the kill button. Death is gonna happen, but encouraging other realistic outcomes is good too.

Wow, great response! Cheers Bogre!

[kahuna]

Bring back real masks please.

[Veselka]

I think it's a bit of trickle down economics where it comes to PK.

I find that Raiders / Home Turf Warriors / Wasteland Warriors tend to be actually the more forgiving type, robbing you before killing you. Amon'ma was a good example. My Byn Sergeant Liya was robbed by him multiple times, often for 200-300 coins. HAR! He seemed to love leaving people to live for another day, particularly if you played his game. Often the Byn that were with me wanted to draw swords and fight, but Liya would often be the voice of reason. Is your life worth throwing away for a petty moment of pride? Sure, your ego gets hurt, but you get to walk away unmolested to fight another day.

What I mean by trickle down economics is from the people in charge, down to the people doing the task. It really depends on the leadership (and I'm not saying current leadership is guilty of this). Leadership can be unforgiving when it comes to completing tasks. Leader A tasks Minion B to 'take care of Soandso, permanently'. If Minion B fails to do so, they'll be held to account, sometimes even losing their own life over it. With variable experiences with leaders over the years, Minion B may even assume that Leader A will kill them if they fail, even if they didn't explicitly say so.

Anecdotally, my leaders have requested that offending PCs be 'punished' or 'taught a lesson', even saying 'don't kill them', and Minion B has come back with their head. It isn't what I meant -- Perhaps I should have been more explicit? But there's nothing that can be done about it -- Minion B took it to mean that if they solve the problem permanently, they'll be rewarded even more.

Also anecdotally, my leaders have been successful with the threat of impending doom, rather than just sending out the goon squad. Sometimes all the offending party needs is a reminder they are on thin ice, and they change their ways. Particularly if you tell them 'if I hear about this from my superiors or a Templar, you're dead meat'.

I think this more than anything leads to those quick PKs -- the blowdart, the arrow from afar, the peraine knife. Minion B wants to accomplish the task for brownie points with Leader A, without complications, and without being seen.

I think more room for failure needs to be afforded. When Darth Maul first went to Tattoine to kill/capture Obi Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gonn, and failed, the Emperor didn't straight up murder Darth Maul. He sent him back to finish the job. I think there needs to be more allowance from leaders for that sort of margin of failure and rinse/repeat to afford more RP, rather than the Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL PK.

I'm personally a huge fan of PK. I too prefer to be killed (even by quick random PK death) over an NPC, falling to my death, or making an OOC mistake (walking into the Silt Sea by accident). Even if the PK was meaningless, I prefer to be killed by people rather than the game world.

Some things that I think will help:

-Make Combat Timer affect using the Unseen Way except for Psionicists. You're pumping with adrenaline, you can't focus using the Way. Minion B is often afraid if their quarry gets away with an insta-flee, they'll immediately report to everyone in the known world that they have been attacked by Minion B. Another reason people resort to the quick, effortless PK. I think this can lead to more slow rolling chases across the dunes and through the alleys. Psionicists should be the exception, due to their stronger control over the Way.

-Reward Minions for not carrying out quick effortless PKs. This trickles down from the top. If you are hiring someone or tasking someone with teaching someone a lesson, be explicit that you expect them not to kill them, or else they will most certainly come back with their head.

-Encourage RP over Final Plot Resolution. It's fun to have little nemesis running around hating your guts. Sure, they may retaliate and you'll find yourself on the ass end of the stick with a quick death PK, but you at least weren't a part of the problem.

[Heade]

I don't random PK people. I've PKed, but in nearly every instance, it was the result of extensive RP where it made sense to do IC. In almost every case, several other avenues of conflict resolution were tried first. Some of those that did result in a PK or attempted PK were due to "orders" or suggestions from staff-animated NPCs that held a position of authority over my character. Other PKs/Attempts were at the behest of other PCs, where significant amounts of RP resulted in a plan to "eliminate X person".

However, once a decision IC has been made to actually kill someone, I see very little IC incentive to NOT make the scene a quick, lethal surprise. It makes sense to perform such a deed in such a way to maximize both your chance of success and chance of getting away with it.

That said, the vast majority of my involvement with PKs was as someone who RPed with a third party to have someone killed/caught. In the instances where one of my PCs personally killed another PC, the majority of the situations were defensive in nature, botched attempts at attacking my PC, or situations where my PC was in a position of authority and they pulled out a weapon as if they were going to attack while being interrogated.

If my PC is apartment killed or killed with a poison dagger or something in the city, I have always generally assumed that there was RP with other people that led to that outcome, and that it wasn't just a random PK, despite no RP before the attack. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I've also never been randomly attacked in the desert, except by desert elves in their territory while playing as a human(understandable). And once, when I was travelling in the desert, there was a hidden raider who used "threaten" on me by surprise, but I had already been qued to walk, and unintentionally triggered the "threaten", making them attack me. I used flee, and they didn't pursue(was within a couple rooms of Allanak gates).

I've had more random attacks happen inside the city. Once, nearly 20 years ago, I was randomly attacked by a gicker inside Allanak soon after character creation. I agree that it's lame to random PK people with most character concepts. But I've mostly only been able to determine such attacks were random in cases where I only just recently made the PC. Those attacks do indeed suck, when you've only had a couple hours played, have virtually nothing of value, and basically get relegated to the role of someone's practice dummy for sap or backstab.

In cases where my character has lived long enough to have substantial interactions with other PCs, I've normally assumed that attacks made on my characters were the result of some interactions that I've had. That assumption might be in error, but I'd prefer to think that other players aren't just wantonly running around killing random people.

I'm ok with people playing serial killers, but I'd like to see people playing such characters adopt attributes often associated with such killers. Things like "setting the scene" after a kill, so that all of their kills generally look the same, and can thus be attributed to the same killer, targetting specific subsets of individuals(male redheads, elves, dwarves, etc), and things of that nature. Characters who PK for the thrill of it should be played as a serial killer, in my opinion. Just killing whoever, whenever, because you want their boots is silly and gamey unless you RP the associated psychology behind it, in my opinion.

I'd respect other players a lot more if they, instead of practicing their backstab after they pickpocketed my key and locked my apartment door, just said, "Give me all your jewelry and sid."

I've never had a merchant PC robbed or extorted. Every one of them has been killed instead. I have no idea if they were "hits", random PKs for my stuff, or just wanton murders.

That is why I've always supported an "explanation" system. Basically, when you PK someone, you're already supposed to send an explanation as to why you did so to staff. I suggest that we implement a system where staff can basically put a one-line explanation into the system for PC death, such as:
1. Moe was hired by Joe to kill Ed, and Moe executed the contract.
2. Moe killed Ed because he wanted his boots.
3. Moe killed Ed because Ed stole his lover.
or
4. Moe killed Ed because Moe is a serial killer, and Ed fit the profile for his victims.

The player of the victim wouldn't get this explanation immediately. Instead, the system would automatically send said explanation 1 real life year after the character death. This system would primarily be meant to give players confidence in other players and staff, so that they didn't feel like people were just random PKing. I think, in general, people would feel better about PKs if they knew that, at some point, they're going to get a definitive justification for the PK.

[mansa]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail.

I think it has to do with maintaining your power and status.
How can you ensure that someone else will never attempt to usurp yours?   You remove the piece from the table.

Is there another way to do so?  Sure, there's lots of ways, but I think the playerbase may be limited in considering what is possible, when the easiest thing to do is death.  One way I think we can make alternatives to death more popular is to give more examples of what is possible.   Another way is to allow limited debuffs of skill proficiencies, kinda like a spanking or a slap on the wrist.

This makes me think of the idea of a child surpassing their parent.  Does the child have to kill their parent to take over a clan?  Is there the concept of "ex-leader, on their way back down the ranks" ?   Won't the new leader always think the old leader is conspiring to take over again?

[Refugee]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

[Is Friday]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

[roughneck]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

The locked room PK is weak sauce. From all and any perspectives. A lukewarm play to be spat out of the RP god's mouth.

[Is Friday]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

[Riev]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

Look I said I was sorry.

[Is Friday]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

Look I said I was sorry.

As though you're the only person to locked room kill me. Psh. 

[Heade]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

The locked room PK is weak sauce. From all and any perspectives. A lukewarm play to be spat out of the RP god's mouth.

And yet, despite no one really saying this is an "A-OK" way to go, this is how a great many PKs happen. I don't know what the MUD's statistics are for this in general, but I know on my PCs, the ratio of locked room PKs to every other type of PK is heavily in favor of dying in locked rooms.

Thinking back across the many years I've played, I would say it's safe to say that 90% of the time I've been PKed, I've been in a locked room. Sometimes I had the key, and sometimes I didn't, but that is where the PKs generally happened.

And that leads to stupid things like PCs refusing to enter areas where other PCs can lock doors. This doesn't make any sense thematically, because in reality, the doors to the Gaj should/could be locked if someone of appropriate rank or title wanted them to be. So it adds a gamey component to RP, where people avoid places that could codedly be locked, but freely go to places that SHOULD be able to be locked, but codedly can't be.

I don't personally play like this, but I've run into other PCs that do, and I find it incredibly immersion-breaking, because it instantly sends up red flags that the person is gaming the system rather than trying to appropriately roleplay a living, breathing character.

But this issue is a bit off topic for this thread. I still think that a notification system that gave victims of PK a reason for the PK 1 year after their death would help alleviate some of the bitterness with PC death, and would instill the playerbase with more confidence both in staff and their fellow players.

[Dar]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room. It requires observation, tracking, stalking, timing, preparation. What's so bad with that?

Nothing codedly is stopping you from killing someone out in the open. Except of course the ability of the victim to escape, the possible witnesses, and the guards.

If anything, locked room PK are the best option. Because it is difficult and requires preparation and if pulled off, gives you a chance to take your time once the target is incapacitated to give the victim some kind of a story. It's a lot more difficult when you decide to pull off a kill in the middle of the street.

People used to be afraid of being known as pickpockets. And you guys want people to expose themselves as attempted murderers? Seriously? A lot of PKing that happens in locked rooms are done to people of station. It is natural for a person to want to avoid the consequences of a PK by the murder remaining unsolved. It is natural and should be possible.

If you're insta PKilled. Please just assume that the real story happened out of your personal sight. Because it most likely did.

[Heade]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

[Lizzie]

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

I've been killed in closed rooms mostly because I panicked and didn't try to open the door. No idea if it was locked or not, heh. But the circumstances are - I went into that room with full knowledge that someone else was with me. Either they took me there, or I took them there, or I knew I was meeting someone there on purpose. No problem with the idea of that. I think I complained only once, but that was because the killer abused the Way to find out that the only person my PC would have tried to get help from, wasn't logged in at the time (we used to get a message saying that that adventurer was't in zalanthas or something similar - it's been changed since). So the killer knew they were safe to kill my PC.

A reason I'm all for PKing, and this is a typical thing.
You want someone dead. But your boss, or their boss, tells you not to. So you leave them be, and continue stewing and grumbling about it, while this target keeps doing things that made you want them dead in the first place.

They do it more and more, and become more and more influential, more and more badass, because all the "important people" keep saying "no, they're not a problem, let them live."

Eventually that person becomes a problem, even to the people who let him live for the past however many RL months. But now, it's infinitely more difficult to kill him. He has prestige, influence, max skills, power, and enough money to buy the INaction of anyone who was paid to act against him.

Months and months of your playtime, being frustrated because you just wanted this guy dead. And now everyone knows that your reasons for wanting him dead were 100% valid, but it's too late. He ends up killing the bunch of you. All because you didn't kill him first.

Happened several times in my years of playing, I'm sure it's happened to others.

[Veselka]

I always felt like apartment kills were the "B" in MCB 

[Dar]

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

I've been killed in closed rooms mostly because I panicked and didn't try to open the door. No idea if it was locked or not, heh. But the circumstances are - I went into that room with full knowledge that someone else was with me. Either they took me there, or I took them there, or I knew I was meeting someone there on purpose. No problem with the idea of that. I think I complained only once, but that was because the killer abused the Way to find out that the only person my PC would have tried to get help from, wasn't logged in at the time (we used to get a message saying that that adventurer was't in zalanthas or something similar - it's been changed since). So the killer knew they were safe to kill my PC.

A reason I'm all for PKing, and this is a typical thing.
You want someone dead. But your boss, or their boss, tells you not to. So you leave them be, and continue stewing and grumbling about it, while this target keeps doing things that made you want them dead in the first place.

They do it more and more, and become more and more influential, more and more badass, because all the "important people" keep saying "no, they're not a problem, let them live."

Eventually that person becomes a problem, even to the people who let him live for the past however many RL months. But now, it's infinitely more difficult to kill him. He has prestige, influence, max skills, power, and enough money to buy the INaction of anyone who was paid to act against him.

Months and months of your playtime, being frustrated because you just wanted this guy dead. And now everyone knows that your reasons for wanting him dead were 100% valid, but it's too late. He ends up killing the bunch of you. All because you didn't kill him first.

Happened several times in my years of playing, I'm sure it's happened to others.

This is a little bit more complicated then that, Lizzie.

Imagine another situation.

A guild boss is sitting on his throne. A new PC shows up and he's all uppity and doesnt want to join your gang. You have a chat with him and clearly the person wants to be a criminal. So he'll be a criminal outside of your gang, outside of your territory, victiming the people "you" are victimizing yourself. A competitor. And since he's not joining your gang, then the longer he lives, the more of a problem he will become.

That means the Boss should really really off that guy and he does. Until ... another PC shows up and another. And then people look at the last six month of labyrinth and notice that it's kind of quiet. Because this one guild boss is killing every newbie PC who doesnt insta join the gang. While in reality, there are thousands of vnpcs who never join his gang and are left unmolested.

There is a bit of an consideration to choosing not to solve all of your problems with a PK.  It is completely OOC. And it's a matter of wanting the game to be better and more interesting. Even at a price of your own personal characters 'win conditions'.

[Dar]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Just curious. Did this happen to you? If the hallways were made no_hide flagged, do you think this would've prevented it?

[Heade]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Just curious. Did this happen to you? If the hallways were made no_hide flagged, do you think this would've prevented it?

Yes, it has happened to me more than once. And if hallways were flagged as no_hide, I do believe it would have been prevented.

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

This is the way the majority of my attacks in locked apartments has been. It's mostly been people attacking in my own character's apartment after having shadowed them in there.

I wouldn't have much of an issue with it if I was betrayed by someone I let in, or if I knowingly went with someone into a room they then locked. I've had Templar PCs kill my PCs in locked rooms, and that isn't the lame sort of situation I'm talking about.

Basically, people shouldn't be able to "shadow" you through an apartment door. If they do, you should get a notification of "X forces their way in through the door behind you", and the system should automatically have you begin watching X.

If you think about how people move and such when they enter their apartment/home, the idea that someone could get through the door behind them without notice is absolutely absurd. People close the door before they're even fully out of the doorway. In any case of people being "followed" into their home, it's almost always a situation where an intruder pushes their way in behind you, and the threat is completely obvious.

I don't want apartments to be no hide rooms, because I still think apartment PKs should be able to happen. I just think there should be more involved than shadowing someone into their apartment. If someone goes through all the effort of spying on you to find out where you live, then makes sure you're not home, studies your schedule, breaks into your apartment while you're away and relocks the door, then hides and waits for you to get home, then surprise PKs you, I'm OK with that. They went through the proper steps to make a realistic apartment PK. But shadowing you into your apartment and "pickpocketing" a key that is presumably in your hand, preventing you from getting out of your apartment is NOT legit. Nothing about it is legit, from the shadowing to the pickpocketing something that you're physically holding on to.

[Dar]

So. If the corridors were no_hide flagged, but someone shadowed you in anyway. Fully visible, but their movements behind you are still silent.  Would you consider that your character was ... absent minded enough to actually allow the person to sneak in after you through the door? Not because he was hidden. A single look over your shoulder would've allowed you to see him. But because he was silent, you didnt bother looking, and he followed you in. Would that be kosher?

[Heade]

So. If the corridors were no_hide flagged, but someone shadowed you in anyway. Fully visible, but their movements behind you are still silent.  Would you consider that your character was ... absent minded enough to actually allow the person to sneak in after you through the door? Not because he was hidden. A single look over your shoulder would've allowed you to see him. But because he was silent, you didnt bother looking, and he followed you in. Would that be kosher?

It would be better than what we have now. It'd still be stupid, but I understand the technical limitations and that it would be far more difficult to code a script that revealed someone shadowing you into your apartment than to simply make apartment hallways no_hide. Currently, there is nothing to differentiate walking into an apartment from walking into any other room, from a code standpoint. So someone would have to come up with an inventive way to implement such a system.(I do have ideas on how to code it)

I think such a script is a worthwhile investment in development time. But until someone decides they have the time and inclination to implement such a system, "no_hide" flags on hallways makes an acceptable stand-in. All players should be made aware of the mechanic if implemented, though, so that they can know all they need to do is "look" before entering their apartment, and so that stealthy players also know what they're getting into if they shadow someone into an apartment building.

I'm not a fan of "surprise" no_hide rooms. I'd like to see no_hide flags made visible to players, since it should be obvious to the characters whether a place has hiding places or not as well.

[Inks]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

PK is what seperates the game from other, less realistic games. Yes some newer players may be quick to PK but if it makes sense then it is perfectly valid.

If you are getting PKed repeatedly across multiple characters I have no idea how your PCs are so hateable.  In 55 or so PC's I have had have maybe been PK'd three times. I wish it had been much more because some of those PCs of mine had it coming! It's an exciting way to go out.

[Dar]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

Come on, man. None of our perspectives are even 10% of what's going on in the game. No need to use such broad strokes.

[Heade]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

I don't know who you're talking to, but assuming it's me, I'm not annoyed about a PC dying. I find particular mechanics of the game annoying, and that is what we're discussing, game mechanics. Let's try not to minimalize and assume people are just butthurt about losing a PC.

I want the game to be good for both stealthy PCs and apartment dwellers. I'm asking for a system that makes sense. That's all. I like playing stealthy characters, almost to the exclusion of all other character types, yet I am suggesting changes that wouldn't benefit stealthy characters. This isn't a self-interest suggestion.

If a staffer wants to look at my past characters, I'm sure they could confirm that probably 9 out of 10 of my PCs have had hide/sneak.

If you are getting PKed repeatedly across multiple characters I have no idea how your PCs are so hateable.  In 55 or so PC's I have had have maybe been PK'd three times. I wish it had been much more because some of those PCs of mine had it coming! It's an exciting way to go out.

We've RPed together, so you have had an opportunity to experience my playstyle. One difference between us might be that I tend to play human non-combat PCs quite often, so when people ATTEMPT to PK me, they're more likely to succeed than if they attack a dwarven fighter or something. I don't know what kind of character's you often play.

But almost every PC I've had has died to PK if they didn't die to some PvE thing first. I think I may have retired 3 PCs or so in 20 years of playing, and that was only because I had the PC in game during a long absence from the game, and they aged beyond a reasonable level of playability.

[Inks]

No I am not talking to anyone at all my dude! I only read the first page. I am talking 100% generally.

[Heade]

No I am not talking to anyone at all my dude! I only read the first page. I am talking 100% generally.

Ah, ok. Always difficult to tell when you don't quote what you're responding to in a multi-page thread. Also, see above. Added an edited response to you.

Also, I'm with you that I prefer to die to PK rather than some random PvE occurrence. Being PKed often means you mattered to the story in some way. That doesn't alter the fact that there are, indeed, some problems surrounding both the mechanics often employed to PK and the reasoning for doing so not being transparent, even years after the fact.

[Inks]

I would also like a small reason that doesn't spoil anyone's plot sent from those who PK me / to those I PK. That would be super awesome and provide closure.

[Heade]

I would also like a small reason that doesn't spoil anyone's plot sent from those who PK me / to those I PK. That would be super awesome and provide closure.

Agreed, and if it is sent exactly 1 year after PC death, and players know they can expect to get that notice later, I think it will be satisfying for everyone involved.

[ShaLeah]

I'm a HUGE pk advocate. Back when I  started it seemed to happen a lot MORE. It's interesting to me that people that haven't come from -that- era think that there's so much pk now. I've begun asking myself whether or not those players that are so against pk were players in Tuluk where no one (read: protagonists) ever died. Maybe they really just don't know how infrequent it happens when compared to olden times.

I'd KILL for the actual numbers. Pun intended.

[Lizzie]

This is a little bit more complicated then that, Lizzie.

Imagine another situation.

A guild boss is sitting on his throne. A new PC shows up and he's all uppity and doesnt want to join your gang. You have a chat with him and clearly the person wants to be a criminal. So he'll be a criminal outside of your gang, outside of your territory, victiming the people "you" are victimizing yourself. A competitor. And since he's not joining your gang, then the longer he lives, the more of a problem he will become.

That means the Boss should really really off that guy and he does. Until ... another PC shows up and another. And then people look at the last six month of labyrinth and notice that it's kind of quiet. Because this one guild boss is killing every newbie PC who doesnt insta join the gang. While in reality, there are thousands of vnpcs who never join his gang and are left unmolested.

There is a bit of an consideration to choosing not to solve all of your problems with a PK.  It is completely OOC. And it's a matter of wanting the game to be better and more interesting. Even at a price of your own personal characters 'win conditions'.

In that other situation, there are virtual guild bosses who already take care of the virtual criminal competitors. They're not conflicting with YOUR crew. They're conflicting with all those other virtual crews.

I don't recall ever hearing of any guild boss who killed every single PC *just because* that PC didn't immediately join up.  I've heard of characters showing up and being real assholes who, in addition to being assholes, refused to join. I've heard of characters who were (not very good at hiding it) secretly mages, who also refused to join. And people who spent all their time southside "gettin gud" who suddenly decided they were going to show up in the rinth and take over - who refused to join. Lots and lots of different situations in which someone was invited to join, and refused, and were killed because of a combination of things.

It's the combination that causes the PK, not exclusively refusal to join.

[rinthrat]

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Another common tactic is to figure out where the target lives, then break in and wait for your victim to come home. This is indistinguishable from the scenario you described, and a lot more believeable. So - there's a totally non-twinkish way this could have happened.

[Refugee]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

I agree with that.  Especially reading about someone sneaking in your door with you and killing you, that's so unrealistic I'd never even considered it.

[Bebop]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail. Hope ya'll have a great day!

Thanks in advance!

Oooooh, boy.  You done fucked up now son.  I posed this question when I came back a year ago.  And recently argued about it in "The Rinth Needs Teeth" thread.  Glad I'm not the only one.  After 5 years gone, and about a year and a half back?  It seems so ridiculously overused right now and super easy with the availability of perraine.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54137.0.html

It ended up being like seventeen pages long and it's still just as bad of a problem.  Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

[rinthrat]

Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

These super-long lived characters only managed to live that long because... nobody bothered, or managed to PK them. If PK becomes even harder, you'll have more of these characters, not less.

[Bebop]

Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

These super-long lived characters only managed to live that long because... nobody bothered, or managed to PK them. If PK becomes even harder, you'll have more of these characters, not less.

I disagree.   And certain long lived PCs are pretty much impossible to kill as it is.  The virtual world is arbitrary and the meta doesn't properly reflect the docs in many ways.  I don't have the energy to delve into this again but it's nice to know another vet player who went on hiatus also picked up on this right away.  I'm so sick of how prolific PK and instakill is in this meta.  Let the story freaking deepen.  And I'm not saying don't punish people, like get shit started but don't constantly send the instakill nuke in, in this coded skill Cold War we've got going on where those that actually want to RP are dropping like flies because they haven't spammed up all their shit.  Ugh.  UGH.

[Heade]

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Another common tactic is to figure out where the target lives, then break in and wait for your victim to come home. This is indistinguishable from the scenario you described, and a lot more believeable. So - there's a totally non-twinkish way this could have happened.

Yeah, breaking into someone's apartment and waiting it out is totally a legit strategy. That isn't what happened.

First off, doing so requires more patience, and people just generally take the fastest route to success. Secondly, if you're sitting around in someone's apartment for hours waiting for them to pop in, there is a high likelihood that your reaction time isn't going to be so fast that you pickpocket their key before they can even lock their own door.

Could the same scenario happen if someone put in the work, even if it wasn't possible to shadow people into their own apartments and pickpocket the key? Sure it could. But in that scenario, they put in the work to do it so it isn't a problem in my mind.

Only certain character builds have the skills necessary to break into an apartment and wait in hiding for the occupant to arrive, then successfully murderize them. On the other hand, almost any base class could shadow someone into their apartment(some requiring a specific subclass). There is just far less involved in the shadow/kill combo. Pickpocket is a nice ability to have to ensure they can't unlock the door, but often isn't even necessary if you're using poisons. Anyone can take a key off a corpse.

[roughneck]

It's not my style to do the locked room death, but I have shadowed people into their place. As I read through the thread, seeing some other sides to it. Here are are some counterpoints:

- The locked room death encourages clan play - you have a guarded place to keep your shit safe(er) and not get murderized. This is Zalanthas where people's children are dying for lack of food and water and nobody gives a shit about you or your shit because corruption abounds and if you're not nobility or a merchant house, you're a nobody with a shitty little bone and wood lock keeping you and your shit protected from the threats outside.

- Our apartments have 1 entry point and 1 vulnerability - nobody can sneak through windows, force a door with a prybar, or do any of the other reasonable things to threaten your property that someone could do in IRL - if we take away shadowing folks into their apartments, something else is needed to compensate. If you think that someone shadowing through a door is unrealistic, imagine they ran around the building and crawled through a window. Be thankful for what you have, we're approaching turkey season.

- Class specialization. We're really talking about Miscreants here. They're a cool class, but I feel like this is a great example of how there's a few circumstances where a more thematic approach makes sense. If you're a stealthy criminal, it makes sense you have a specialization, rather than being a master of locks, pickpocketing, poisons etc. I really like the new classes, but I miss the thematic streaming that a different approach to specialization brings.

- Imagine if your 500 'sid a month really did get you a Walla Walla level fortification? This thread would be about a whole other list of complaints.

- I read a complaint about PC's playing a style of always being nervous about being alone in locked rooms with people. Well FUCK YES! That means the game is working. Our PC's should be suspicious, nervous and anxious about being robbed and murdered. Our PC's are generally WAAAAAAY richer than the VNPC population. Our PC's should be walking targets. This desire to be a super rich, independent person in a place like Allanak without an extreme level of threat to you and your belongings needs to be tempered - it doesn't track.

[Lizzie]

I see plenty of variety in situations. I see characters being killed, and I see characters being maimed, hurt, warned, befriended, allied with, begrudgingly accepted, hired, and rejected without death as a result.

If one person is experiencing a lot of PK, or their OOC friends are all seeing a lot of PK, then I'd suggest that maybe it's not the people doing the killing that's the problem. Maybe these "victims" are behaving in a way that a PK is a totally appropriate result (not merely one that you can come up with an excuse, but actually appropriate).

I've seen people give characters a few chances before finally saying "you know what, you still haven't quite grasped the fact that pissing me off is a stupid thing to do. It's time to die now."

What I do NOT see a lot of, is obvious new players (not just new characters) being PKed unless they repeatedly do something ICly dumb and aren't listening to both IC and OOC warnings (such as, "ooc hey new guy don't use "kill" in the bar, use "hit" and don't draw your weapons or you'll get ganked") And I don't even see a whole lot of that, either.

I do see PKs, but I'm not seeing any problem with them. From my perspective, none of the ones I know about have been "senseless" at all.

[Shalooonsh]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

[Heade]

- The locked room death encourages clan play

Generally, I don't care about encouraging clan play. But if that is something we want to do, it should be done by making clans interesting enough that players enjoy playing as a part of an interesting group rather than saying it's necessary if you want a character to live for any period of time at all.

- Our apartments have 1 entry point and 1 vulnerability - nobody can sneak through windows, force a door with a prybar, or do any of the other reasonable things to threaten your property that someone could do in IRL - if we take away shadowing folks into their apartments, something else is needed to compensate.

Not all apartments only have 1 entry point, and apartments don't all have windows. The ones that do have windows/balconies often have separate entryways on that side. Nothing needs to "compensate" for eliminating an unrealistic mechanic like shadowing people into their apartment. The best sets of "killer" skills have been separated from the best "burglar" skills for a reason. It's meant to promote teams of people working together instead of a lone assassin who can do everything.

Shadowing people into their apartment without them noticing is simply NOT something that should happen, period. If people go through the effort to break in while they're not home and wait for them, that's fine. But the shadowing without notice isn't.

I do see PKs, but I'm not seeing any problem with them. From my perspective, none of the ones I know about have been "senseless" at all.

Lizzie, people don't see the vast majority of PKs that happen. Especially if the PK is a new player/new character who a lot of people don't know. There are fresh bodies on the corpse pile in Nak daily. With the average player counts we have in game, that represents a significant percentage of the playerbase being killed off with regularity. And we, as players, aren't allowed to OOCly talk about the circumstances of our PC's deaths for at least a year after playing them. So, while I appreciate that you aren't "involved" in senseless PKs, that doesn't mean they don't happen just because you don't know about them. There are tons of systems in place to ensure you don't know about them.

[Veselka]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

Wouldn't death reports be a more accurate form of data?

I agree that PK is likely not as off the chain as people are making it out to be, but character approvals don't imply how previous PCs perished, only that their PC has perished so they are applying for a new PC. I imagine PK reports and their frequency would provide more information on that front, particularly because they are more or less required now.

[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

[Veselka]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

From the 'help kill' helpfile (There is no help PK, help player killing, or help pk report. Maybe there should be!)

Code Select Expand


   If your character is about to PK another character, we do ask that you wish up to alert staff. A
simple 'About to PK Amos' is all that is needed, although we understand that sometimes, in the heat
of the moment, it is not possible to wish up prior to a PK. After the PK, we also ask that you
submit a quick report through the request tool to sum up your character's intention or reasoning
behind the kill. This is to keep staff informed in case consequences arise from it that we can
handle.




[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

[Veselka]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

Wishes are logged AFAIK, but as posted above, you are supposed to file a PK report via the request tool. I agree the language makes it seem not required. 'We Ask' is a request to do so, but it doesn't say 'You are required to'.

[Alesan]

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

The only issue I see with that is what if there are no staff available at the time of the PK. If you are only wishing up at the time of the PK, without sending in an actual report through the request tool, the staff will not be aware of it. Unless wishes are logged?

Wishes are logged AFAIK, but as posted above, you are supposed to file a PK report via the request tool. I agree the language makes it seem not required. 'We Ask' is a request to do so, but it doesn't say 'You are required to'.

I'm thinking if that's the case, the wording should be changed to reflect that it is a required action rather than a suggested action... otherwise it feels open to interpretation.

[Heade]

First, the wish up and the PK report are 2 separate things. Both should be done.

The PK report is an official explanation of your character's internal reasoning for doing what they did.

The wish up is so that, if available, a staffer who is interested may come observe what actually happens.

"More or less required" is not required. It's an all or nothing thing. Last I recall of this topic being discussed, it was only "strongly recommended" to send in a PK report. I think it should be required for any PK to happen. As well as a wish up before the deed.

OK, minus the more or less, then. I'm pretty sure it is is required. The 'More Or Less' part is more 'if you can wish up before a PK happens 5-10 minutes, please do so, otherwise wish up after it happens'. Pretty sure Staff is now pretty strict about this kind of thing.

I actually don't think they're particularly strict about it at all. They have said they would like people to send in PK reports. But they've also said that they only send someone a "strongly worded warning" about doing so once they hit several PKs on a single PC without sending in reports.

I know in some cases, wishing up might not be possible in a twitchy situation, but generally, I don't think typing "wish all I'm very seriously considering PKing X." As a simple heads up that it MIGHT happen is too much to ask. Especially if you're stalking them and planning on sapping/backstabbing them. This is the thing that should instead be a "strongly worded warning" if it doesn't happen a few times.

Like Alesan, I think a PK report should be required for every PK, without leniency. Even to the point where, if a PK report hasn't been received within 48 hours of the PK, they get locked out of the game until their PK report is received and resolved.

[Veselka]

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. Every PK report I've filed has been responded to with 'looks good from our end' or 'we were there watching' in any case. My PKs are unassailable.

[Nameless Face]

If I scanned the docs right, the only required staff interaction in any non-sponsored, non-leadership or other non-special (family or such) role is to become approved for play through char-gen.

Everything else is only "recommend" or optional.  For some players, based on the comments I've read, this is preferred.

[Heade]

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that. Every PK report I've filed has been responded to with 'looks good from our end' or 'we were there watching' in any case. My PKs are unassailable.

Good. I suspect that the vast majority of players are similarly responsible. If I had to guess, I would speculate that there are a handful of players who consistently play PCs responsible for an inordinately high percentage of PKs. This sort of requirement doesn't really have a major impact on players that aren't a part of that "cult of PK".

But there are some players who play the game specifically to kill other PCs as their primary motivation of playing. Players who, when forced to send in PK reports, will have to make up reasons for their character to kill someone rather than organically HAVE a reason to kill someone prior to said PK. It is these players that PK reports will reveal, because patterns of justification will emerge.

PK report #1: I killed X for his boots.
PK report #2: I killed Y for his sword.
Staff response: Wait, didn't the guy who you killed for his boots yesterday have a sword just like that one?

People should be held to account for at least ATTEMPTING to RP a realistic, living character, and not just a competitive PKing avatar.

I WANT PK in the game. I want it to be the ultimate conflict resolution tool to facilitate RP. I don't want people doing the opposite, PKing, then coming up with some arbitrary rationale for why the PK was justified, when OOCly they just wanted to PK someone, anyone, really.

[Bebop]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

[Alesan]

I'm curious though. Is there a reason why a player would prefer not to inform the staff of a PK attempt? Honestly, why would you not want staff to know about a PK?

[Heade]

I'm curious though. Is there a reason why a player would prefer not to inform the staff of a PK attempt? Honestly, why would you not want staff to know about a PK?

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

Explaining character motivations and the story behind it is something that many roleplayers enjoy doing because they're story builders. People who play specifically for PK on the other hand probably don't enjoy such a thing, because they're not story builders. They're thrill seekers, and taking time to go write character motivations and reasonings is detracting from the time they have to seek those thrills and PK opportunities. For such players, the fact that the game is supposed to be RP-enforced is often a "burden" to them, rather than their reason for playing.

[Veselka]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

This is super anecdotal. I had a very different experience, both with player numbers, depth of story, and frequency of PK. I would say it was a personal experience and opinion, not necessarily empirical truth.

That isn't to say it wasn't true for you -- But I don't think the game was on the verge of dying a year ago, or that PK is more rampant than it was 5 or 10 years ago. I think depending on the roles you are playing, you may be more or less exposed to PK. PK in Tuluk was also less visible, but definitely happened often.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

[/quote]

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

Explaining character motivations and the story behind it is something that many roleplayers enjoy doing because they're story builders. People who play specifically for PK on the other hand probably don't enjoy such a thing, because they're not story builders. They're thrill seekers, and taking time to go write character motivations and reasonings is detracting from the time they have to seek those thrills and PK opportunities. For such players, the fact that the game is supposed to be RP-enforced is often a "burden" to them, rather than their reason for playing.
[/quote]

For those people, I say, go find a game where PK is the theme. PK is not the theme in Arm. Roleplay is. From the very first line of the introduction:

Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things.

[Bebop]

As the staffer who does a decent (or at least respectable) amount of character approvals, I can state with no fear of being wrong that PK is not as extraordinarily off the chain as some people in this thread seem to think it is.

In science, if there's an outlier form of data, it is often best to study the variable rather than the environment.

I would love to see these numbers now vs 5 years ago.  I know for a fact that within the first few months of my return we were down to 13 people on a Friday night during peak.  2-3 PC's were easily getting player killed a week. 

Numbers are also relative to averages.  So if you have low numbers, as we did then, proportionately that amount of PK is huge.  PKs vs player log ins.  I would love to see those numbers.  2 - 3 PK a week when numbers were low was literally murder on the game.

I don't think it's a coincidence this concern keeps arising from vet players.  Out of the five characters I've had since my year and a half being back 2 were stored, 2 were insta kill pks, one could barely leave the safety of their home due to numberous pk attempts.   

That's basically half of my pcs in one year being insta killed and pked.  That number easily could have been higher had I not stored --- as opposed to playing from 2004 - 2014 and being assassinated instantly one time ever in ten years.  I was pked more than that but usually that was by Templarate or raids gone wrong.  But only one backstab insta death assassination type thing in TEN years .

In that time I played a Guild Boss that killed a scorcerer and a psion, a Merc that helped killl a mul.  Never used perraine for any of that.  Don't think I ever got perrained either.  It was actually rare.  Hermaidr was all but a myrh.

Maybe it's just personal experience but I never had the experience of seeing so much poison use and blatant PK which is I made my thread talking about how it was helping straight kill off the game last year.  Our numbers were so low - single digits during peak hours sometimes - a legit thought this game was done for.

I hate it.  I feel like the story is so shallow and I don't have much investment in the game atm tbh because I'm always ready to die quickly and easily for the most petty, unrealistic reasons possible with no coded way to save against the op skills used against me.  And any ig privilege supposedly enforced by the lore is reinforced so fleetingly it doesn't seem to matter.

Increasingly, the world feels like a coded playground with a vague RP backdrop.  Allanak also feels increasingly like Tuluk.  The social meta is really tilted.

This is super anecdotal. I had a very different experience, both with player numbers, depth of story, and frequency of PK. I would say it was a personal experience and opinion, not necessarily empirical truth.

That isn't to say it wasn't true for you -- But I don't think the game was on the verge of dying a year ago, or that PK is more rampant than it was 5 or 10 years ago. I think depending on the roles you are playing, you may be more or less exposed to PK. PK in Tuluk was also less visible, but definitely happened often.

I acknowledged in my own post my experience was my own and therefore anecdotal so I'd like the numbers to go off of math and science instead of my own personal experience.  I never said it was "imperical" truth.  Didn't even hint at that.  It's why I requested the numbers against player averages so a PK ratio can be found that trump's any of our singular opinions.

I'm not going to be reading your posts any further.  They all follow a very obvious structure.  Disagree instantly with Bebop.  State the obvious as privledged information.  Posture with your own opinion presenting it as inherently superior while missing my point entirely due to being overly eager to disagree for the sake of being a contrarian.  Oh and calling people fascists. 🤣 Your bias against me is showing.  You really don't have to try and personally discredit every opinion and experience I disclose here but the effort in doing so is noted.  I'm allowed to state my own game experience here.so politely step off.

[Veselka]

Liberal fascists, but sure. You tend to state opinion as fact, and are shocked there are people that disagree, imploring them to stop sharing their opinions because you disagree with them.

I encourage you to continue stating your opinions on the discussion board, and wouldn't implore you to do otherwise. However, yes, we typically seem to disagree with each other, and likely have a different view of the world. No worries! I don't think less of you for being different.

[Bebop]

Liberal fascists, but sure. You tend to state opinion as fact, and are shocked there are people that disagree, imploring them to stop sharing their opinions because you disagree with them.

I encourage you to continue stating your opinions on the discussion board, and wouldn't implore you to do otherwise. However, yes, we typically seem to disagree with each other, and likely have a different view of the world. No worries! I don't think less of you for being different.

So glad I have your permission and encouragement after being part of this community for almost 15 years.  Thanks!  😂🙄

So this thread isn't derailed further by all means please PM me to let me know how stating things in the context of "my experience was" and "I personally feel" or requesting numbers to form my opinion around facts is absolutism and not you attacking me on here for everything I say and do.

My game experience is my experience and I'm allowed to disclose it here.  Again.  Step off.

[Veselka]

You're welcome.

[Riev]

This is now so wildly off topic. PK Reports have nothing to do with "why PK"

[Heade]

If you're playing the game as a coded, text-based deathmatch game, and your enjoyment in the game is derived from running around codedly killing players and NPCs rather than being derived from roleplaying, then why would you want to explain a PK to someone? For such players, in their mind, the act of PKing IS the justification for the PK. They PKed because the competition and challenge of killing other players is the thrill of the game for them.

For those people, I say, go find a game where PK is the theme. PK is not the theme in Arm. Roleplay is. From the very first line of the introduction:

Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things.

Sure, that's easy to say, until you start putting faces and names to said unnamed players. The attitudes regarding PK being the thrill of the game for certain people aren't speculative. In other threads, certain players have openly stated that PK is the reason that they play the game, and pursuit of PKs, and the challenge of killing other players is what they enjoy.

Such people will, generally, follow what is enforced in order to maintain access to the elements of the game that they enjoy. They will RP at the minimum acceptable level to not get in trouble(and to get access to gated content they want access to) and, if required, will submit PK reports with the minimum justifiable inclusions as to why they happened. If forced to ACTUALLY have an RP reason to engage in PK under threat of ban, they will leave, comply minimally, or fail to comply and be banned.

But, as far as I know, we have no strong rules on the matter, so currently they're mostly free to simply do what they want most of the time.

This is now so wildly off topic. PK Reports have nothing to do with "why PK"

You think talking about the reports used to answer the question "why PK?" is wildly off topic of "why PK?"?

It's a very closely related topic, and a tool the staff have chosen to be used to address issues surrounding PK that players and staff have concerns about. Let's not try to stifle related conversation. The idea that a thread must be separately created for every permutation of an idea or question is silly.

[Shalooonsh]

Veselka, step the fuck off of Bebop's dick.  It's longer than yours, and it's going to fuck up your posture.

Bebop, I get that you're incensed about this, but your experience and knowledge is anecdotal in this instance, and therefor people are right to examine it thusly.

I am speaking from a position of actual knowledge of numbers across the playerbase.  Do I have a stack of Death Reports on my desk that I keep all prim and proper and thumb through them every hour or two in order to FTB?  No. 

But I do have an awful lot of experience watching notifications kick off when someone eats it, and I can say without a doubt that the ratio of PK is easily between 10-15% of total deaths, with NPCs taking up the majority, falling damage having a definite proud showing, and the ocassional self-poisoning or starvation/dehydration.

The simple fact is that PK, especially insta-PK, is not nearly as prevalent as it may FEEL because you're being repeatedly and brutally whacked.  Does it feel like it is when you lose repeated characters?  Yeah.  Of course it does.  It's you being punched in the virtual face and having to start over again... and it sucks.

But it's not everywhere.  There aren't insta-assassins (just add water!) lurking behind every shadow.  Are there players out there that know what they're doing and git gud in order to make those swag kills?  Sure are.  Just like IRL there are mafia dudes who can disappear people in an artful fashion and then go back to their family and eat a polite dinner without even needing to change clothes.  It's creepy, but there's specials about it on Netflix, so I know it's true.

PK is a vital part of a perm_death game.  Do I think mutilations and threatenings and all that should be more common place?  Well yeah, because just like death, those things are awesome, and they drive character development. They turn stories on their heads, and make new and exciting things happen when Lucky Larry suddenly becomes Lefty Larry because he stepped on the wrong elf's shadow.  Do I also understand why people don't always mutilate, but instead just decapitate?  I sure as hell do.  Leaving an enemy alive is another knife waiting for your back, and sometimes, that knife can have a lot of friends.  Life gets difficult when you leave enemies alive.... buuuut that doesn't mean that your PC wouldn't do it from time to time.  Sudden pangs of guilt, sudden memories dredged up by looking at the face of your nemesis, all that stuff.... excellent reasons to leave someone alive.  And if they're a good RP'er, they'll act as their character would (fearful) instead of as the player would (insta-rage-gank-monster) and coming after you with a bootsquad.

Please settle the fuck down.  I don't like moderating things, but I'll moderate the hell out of this thread if it keeps getting heated. 

Keep it impersonal.  Keep it data driven.  Express your ideas and views clearly and concisely, and don't use it as a platform to make personal pot shots based on what's happened before.

'K?

Love and kisses,
-Shalooonsh

[Veselka]

Veselka, step the fuck off of Bebop's dick.  It's longer than yours, and it's going to fuck up your posture.

I think I've been pretty courteous, Shalooonsh. This on the other hand is another example of you telling other people to stop trolling, yet being just as (or more) insensitive and personal in your response. Dick size -- Really?

[Shalooonsh]

Veselka, step the fuck off of Bebop's dick.  It's longer than yours, and it's going to fuck up your posture.

I think I've been pretty courteous, Shalooonsh. This on the other hand is another example of you telling other people to stop trolling, yet being just as (or more) insensitive and personal in your response. Dick size -- Really?

An attempt at humor following the "step off" comments.  Obviously the humor fell flat.  I was in no way insulting your actual genitalia, which I'm sure is quite impressive.

Let's get back to a wholesome and loving discussion about why we kill people, please?

[Veselka]

The 'Step Off' comments were edited in after the initial posting by Bebop, and before I posted my responses. But sure...Humor.

Politely disagree on the GDB, get your penis size questioned by Staff. Super professional!

I don't really take it personally, but optics are a thing, Looonsh. People are allowed to disagree with each other on a discussion board.

[Shabago]

If a post can't be made without sprinkling in a helping of snark, trolling or some sort of flame, how about not bothering to post in the first place?

That goes for players and staff alike.

Yet again, thread locked for inability to treat each other like adults or adhere to very well known forum rules.