Let's Get Our Quota!!!!! Why PKing?

[titansfan]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail. Hope ya'll have a great day!

Thanks in advance!

[Alesan]

To prevent the other person from escaping and/or further causing unreasonable problems to the offended character.

[Khorm]

i've always thought that pk reflects the fact that life is cheap on zalanthas.

i DO think that not pk creates more interesting scenarios for me personally, and i maybe have ten pk tops across 16 years, but... i generally expect to be pk at all times.

my guy is like an insignificant grain of sand in this huge world, and if he presents a barrier to success for someone else.. it's probably gonna happen. resources are scarce - get yours. death, and by extension pk, always struck me as thematic elements of the game.

[rinthrat]

Why not? I'd rather die to another player than in any other way. So I just don't agree with the sentiment that a 'different solution' is the preferable way to go about it.

There is also this situation - some PCs make it very clear that they will never stop being a problem just because. No matter what you do. There is some insistence to 'create conflict' purely out of the OOC motivation to 'create conflict', because 'conflict is good for the game'. So players keep it up even if it makes no sense ICly at all. At the same time, this OOC insistence makes it impossible to come up with IC resolutions. This is not fun, or good for the game, it's just exhausting and frustrating.

[Riev]

The general feeling I've gotten over the years is this:

NOT Killing someone - More story and fun interaction, but they are still alive and can cause more distractions and disturbances to your daily routines. Can be fun to have an enemy, but superiors wonder why you don't just 'take care of it'.

Killing someone - You no longer have to worry about retaliation. You have solved the problem. Someone else may come along that is more willing to work with you, because you killed the previous one.

[Namino]

I've said it before and I'll say it now. The problem isn't the PKs. It's HOW the PKs happen, or fail to happen.

There's never a titanic struggle, two people sliding down the face of a dune wrestling for a knife. There's never a beaten but unbowed warrior streaming blood from a dozen wounds, barring the way as the noblewoman he was guarding flees with a swaddled babe in her arms. There's never a "I want my father back you son of a bitch" after a last ditch effort.

If someone dies, it's because of a locked apartment, a heramide blowdart, a peraine knife. These don't tell me anything compelling.

And if someone gets away, it's never a breathless chase down the alleyways, parrying over your shoulder as you run. Nobody's ever jumping from rooftop to rooftop. There's no wagons careening on two wheels, both drivers lashing the reins as the arrows fly.

It's you put yourself in delay without incapacitating your target, they spam flee and are four or five rooms in front by the time your delay clears.

The code prevents PKs from telling compelling stories, relying on instant resolution one way or the other. The story of betrayal that led to that point might be fascinating but the actual kills are fucking lame, bro. Even MY PKs felt lame and two dimensional and that was when I was winning. I didn't feel any damn triumph heramiding people.

That's why blackmail appears more fun. Because it offers a lot more depth than the PK meta. It spools out over time. A PK is just a momentary blip in the current iteration. If the code is ever updated to favor less boring meta, then PK is probably going to stop feeling so damn lame.

[roughneck]

The visceral, thrilling experience of PK contest in a high personal investment, perma-death game. I've never found a gaming experience that delivers the same high.

[Is Friday]

One of the reasons why I don't PK often is because it's terribly simplistic and unsatisfying unless it accompanies a rivalry of some sort. It's really just there for cheap thrills. Sort of lowest common denominator fun most of the time.

[Dune Bunny]

I've only had one PK that was satisfying in my memory, over a long time of play, and it was less of a coded PK, and more of the end of a story for a character on their way out that I assisted with.

If it can be avoided, most of my characters will gladly defer to not killing, over killing. I think a lot of it is in line with what Namino posted, but also I think I may just be a big softie about characters living, and wanting to see what comes of the story. (This has backfired on me a few or two times! )

I've never once in over a decade of play outright killed someone without warning or giving them a chance to roleplay, and imagine I never will, it'd leave me feeling very cheap, and like I'd robbed the opposite player of a moment. (Even if it has backfired on me!) Having been killed without warning out in the sands a few times before, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and I couldn't do that without feeling terrible for it. This might be why my combat characters tend to be spectacular failures! XD

[titansfan]

Awesome answers already! I was going to do a poll but I like that I didn't and left it open to freeform reasoning.  I stand with Namino and Dune Bunny. I'm primarily a PVE Arm player in the sense I like rivalries and conflict with PCs, but I don't like killing PCs unless its absolutely necessary or plotted out over time. Meeting some random person in the desert and taking their life just to loot them...not fun. Raiding them or watching them flee off into the distance,  much more satisfying for me. I won't hesistate to sap next time I recognize them out there, but still won't kill them.  Love bludgeoning weapons for that reason.

[roughneck]

We play Arm for compelling stories. PK is a huge part of it. Blood feuds, House rivalries, bounties, tribal wars, crime - PK makes them feel real and compelling.

I'll agree that PK just for the sake of it is lame.

[Bogre]

I think, for one, because it's -really- hard to kill someone unless you completely ace someone, so people lean towards doing it fast, with little attention to the scene of a fight or pursuit. People are also very reluctant to leave rivals alive, for fear of that same quick and un-defendable retaliation. I've been on the delivering and receiving end of quick deaths, and also of mercy, and I can definitely say the mercy has always generally worked out for the winner - usually because their story / reputation / etc expands. I've never gone back to PK someone who's shown my character mercy in the past, or thankfully had it come back to bite me on the other side. But I think that's the big worry.

(Now, I've had some epic battles - when as a PC gith, we chased some fleeing elves through the canyons, up down and fighting across the mesas. But they then got a bit frightened, I think, because the next time I just got a perained blade and killed. Ho-hum. )

The other thing limiting any kind of intimidation/raiding/leaving someone broken but alive is the real lack of ability to obscure one's description. Disguises don't really work: the second someone looks at you, you might as well be painted to that PC's superior / friend / lover / nearest available Sergeant/Templar. Not many folks will avoid the shady hood or mask and opt for at -least- hoping for revenge.

Some things I think will help PVP conflict:

- Slowdown on latency to disability / death with certain things.
- Ability to really disguise yourself.
- Threaten skill / use was a great addition.
- Players leaning towards using other options than the kill button. Death is gonna happen, but encouraging other realistic outcomes is good too.

[titansfan]

I think, for one, because it's -really- hard to kill someone unless you completely ace someone, so people lean towards doing it fast, with little attention to the scene of a fight or pursuit. People are also very reluctant to leave rivals alive, for fear of that same quick and un-defendable retaliation. I've been on the delivering and receiving end of quick deaths, and also of mercy, and I can definitely say the mercy has always generally worked out for the winner - usually because their story / reputation / etc expands. I've never gone back to PK someone who's shown my character mercy in the past, or thankfully had it come back to bite me on the other side. But I think that's the big worry.

(Now, I've had some epic battles - when as a PC gith, we chased some fleeing elves through the canyons, up down and fighting across the mesas. But they then got a bit frightened, I think, because the next time I just got a perained blade and killed. Ho-hum. )

The other thing limiting any kind of intimidation/raiding/leaving someone broken but alive is the real lack of ability to obscure one's description. Disguises don't really work: the second someone looks at you, you might as well be painted to that PC's superior / friend / lover / nearest available Sergeant/Templar. Not many folks will avoid the shady hood or mask and opt for at -least- hoping for revenge.

Some things I think will help PVP conflict:

- Slowdown on latency to disability / death with certain things.
- Ability to really disguise yourself.
- Threaten skill / use was a great addition.
- Players leaning towards using other options than the kill button. Death is gonna happen, but encouraging other realistic outcomes is good too.

Wow, great response! Cheers Bogre!

[kahuna]

Bring back real masks please.

[Veselka]

I think it's a bit of trickle down economics where it comes to PK.

I find that Raiders / Home Turf Warriors / Wasteland Warriors tend to be actually the more forgiving type, robbing you before killing you. Amon'ma was a good example. My Byn Sergeant Liya was robbed by him multiple times, often for 200-300 coins. HAR! He seemed to love leaving people to live for another day, particularly if you played his game. Often the Byn that were with me wanted to draw swords and fight, but Liya would often be the voice of reason. Is your life worth throwing away for a petty moment of pride? Sure, your ego gets hurt, but you get to walk away unmolested to fight another day.

What I mean by trickle down economics is from the people in charge, down to the people doing the task. It really depends on the leadership (and I'm not saying current leadership is guilty of this). Leadership can be unforgiving when it comes to completing tasks. Leader A tasks Minion B to 'take care of Soandso, permanently'. If Minion B fails to do so, they'll be held to account, sometimes even losing their own life over it. With variable experiences with leaders over the years, Minion B may even assume that Leader A will kill them if they fail, even if they didn't explicitly say so.

Anecdotally, my leaders have requested that offending PCs be 'punished' or 'taught a lesson', even saying 'don't kill them', and Minion B has come back with their head. It isn't what I meant -- Perhaps I should have been more explicit? But there's nothing that can be done about it -- Minion B took it to mean that if they solve the problem permanently, they'll be rewarded even more.

Also anecdotally, my leaders have been successful with the threat of impending doom, rather than just sending out the goon squad. Sometimes all the offending party needs is a reminder they are on thin ice, and they change their ways. Particularly if you tell them 'if I hear about this from my superiors or a Templar, you're dead meat'.

I think this more than anything leads to those quick PKs -- the blowdart, the arrow from afar, the peraine knife. Minion B wants to accomplish the task for brownie points with Leader A, without complications, and without being seen.

I think more room for failure needs to be afforded. When Darth Maul first went to Tattoine to kill/capture Obi Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gonn, and failed, the Emperor didn't straight up murder Darth Maul. He sent him back to finish the job. I think there needs to be more allowance from leaders for that sort of margin of failure and rinse/repeat to afford more RP, rather than the Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL PK.

I'm personally a huge fan of PK. I too prefer to be killed (even by quick random PK death) over an NPC, falling to my death, or making an OOC mistake (walking into the Silt Sea by accident). Even if the PK was meaningless, I prefer to be killed by people rather than the game world.

Some things that I think will help:

-Make Combat Timer affect using the Unseen Way except for Psionicists. You're pumping with adrenaline, you can't focus using the Way. Minion B is often afraid if their quarry gets away with an insta-flee, they'll immediately report to everyone in the known world that they have been attacked by Minion B. Another reason people resort to the quick, effortless PK. I think this can lead to more slow rolling chases across the dunes and through the alleys. Psionicists should be the exception, due to their stronger control over the Way.

-Reward Minions for not carrying out quick effortless PKs. This trickles down from the top. If you are hiring someone or tasking someone with teaching someone a lesson, be explicit that you expect them not to kill them, or else they will most certainly come back with their head.

-Encourage RP over Final Plot Resolution. It's fun to have little nemesis running around hating your guts. Sure, they may retaliate and you'll find yourself on the ass end of the stick with a quick death PK, but you at least weren't a part of the problem.

[Heade]

I don't random PK people. I've PKed, but in nearly every instance, it was the result of extensive RP where it made sense to do IC. In almost every case, several other avenues of conflict resolution were tried first. Some of those that did result in a PK or attempted PK were due to "orders" or suggestions from staff-animated NPCs that held a position of authority over my character. Other PKs/Attempts were at the behest of other PCs, where significant amounts of RP resulted in a plan to "eliminate X person".

However, once a decision IC has been made to actually kill someone, I see very little IC incentive to NOT make the scene a quick, lethal surprise. It makes sense to perform such a deed in such a way to maximize both your chance of success and chance of getting away with it.

That said, the vast majority of my involvement with PKs was as someone who RPed with a third party to have someone killed/caught. In the instances where one of my PCs personally killed another PC, the majority of the situations were defensive in nature, botched attempts at attacking my PC, or situations where my PC was in a position of authority and they pulled out a weapon as if they were going to attack while being interrogated.

If my PC is apartment killed or killed with a poison dagger or something in the city, I have always generally assumed that there was RP with other people that led to that outcome, and that it wasn't just a random PK, despite no RP before the attack. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I've also never been randomly attacked in the desert, except by desert elves in their territory while playing as a human(understandable). And once, when I was travelling in the desert, there was a hidden raider who used "threaten" on me by surprise, but I had already been qued to walk, and unintentionally triggered the "threaten", making them attack me. I used flee, and they didn't pursue(was within a couple rooms of Allanak gates).

I've had more random attacks happen inside the city. Once, nearly 20 years ago, I was randomly attacked by a gicker inside Allanak soon after character creation. I agree that it's lame to random PK people with most character concepts. But I've mostly only been able to determine such attacks were random in cases where I only just recently made the PC. Those attacks do indeed suck, when you've only had a couple hours played, have virtually nothing of value, and basically get relegated to the role of someone's practice dummy for sap or backstab.

In cases where my character has lived long enough to have substantial interactions with other PCs, I've normally assumed that attacks made on my characters were the result of some interactions that I've had. That assumption might be in error, but I'd prefer to think that other players aren't just wantonly running around killing random people.

I'm ok with people playing serial killers, but I'd like to see people playing such characters adopt attributes often associated with such killers. Things like "setting the scene" after a kill, so that all of their kills generally look the same, and can thus be attributed to the same killer, targetting specific subsets of individuals(male redheads, elves, dwarves, etc), and things of that nature. Characters who PK for the thrill of it should be played as a serial killer, in my opinion. Just killing whoever, whenever, because you want their boots is silly and gamey unless you RP the associated psychology behind it, in my opinion.

I'd respect other players a lot more if they, instead of practicing their backstab after they pickpocketed my key and locked my apartment door, just said, "Give me all your jewelry and sid."

I've never had a merchant PC robbed or extorted. Every one of them has been killed instead. I have no idea if they were "hits", random PKs for my stuff, or just wanton murders.

That is why I've always supported an "explanation" system. Basically, when you PK someone, you're already supposed to send an explanation as to why you did so to staff. I suggest that we implement a system where staff can basically put a one-line explanation into the system for PC death, such as:
1. Moe was hired by Joe to kill Ed, and Moe executed the contract.
2. Moe killed Ed because he wanted his boots.
3. Moe killed Ed because Ed stole his lover.
or
4. Moe killed Ed because Moe is a serial killer, and Ed fit the profile for his victims.

The player of the victim wouldn't get this explanation immediately. Instead, the system would automatically send said explanation 1 real life year after the character death. This system would primarily be meant to give players confidence in other players and staff, so that they didn't feel like people were just random PKing. I think, in general, people would feel better about PKs if they knew that, at some point, they're going to get a definitive justification for the PK.

[mansa]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail.

I think it has to do with maintaining your power and status.
How can you ensure that someone else will never attempt to usurp yours?   You remove the piece from the table.

Is there another way to do so?  Sure, there's lots of ways, but I think the playerbase may be limited in considering what is possible, when the easiest thing to do is death.  One way I think we can make alternatives to death more popular is to give more examples of what is possible.   Another way is to allow limited debuffs of skill proficiencies, kinda like a spanking or a slap on the wrist.

This makes me think of the idea of a child surpassing their parent.  Does the child have to kill their parent to take over a clan?  Is there the concept of "ex-leader, on their way back down the ranks" ?   Won't the new leader always think the old leader is conspiring to take over again?

[Refugee]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

[Is Friday]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

[roughneck]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

The locked room PK is weak sauce. From all and any perspectives. A lukewarm play to be spat out of the RP god's mouth.

[Is Friday]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

[Riev]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

Look I said I was sorry.

[Is Friday]

Locked room PKs revolve around nonsensical plots, circumstances, and motivations. I'd rather people had more tools to be able to complete a PK in the open, if need be, with adequate risk of discovery for doing so.

Look I said I was sorry.

As though you're the only person to locked room kill me. Psh. 

[Heade]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

The locked room PK is weak sauce. From all and any perspectives. A lukewarm play to be spat out of the RP god's mouth.

And yet, despite no one really saying this is an "A-OK" way to go, this is how a great many PKs happen. I don't know what the MUD's statistics are for this in general, but I know on my PCs, the ratio of locked room PKs to every other type of PK is heavily in favor of dying in locked rooms.

Thinking back across the many years I've played, I would say it's safe to say that 90% of the time I've been PKed, I've been in a locked room. Sometimes I had the key, and sometimes I didn't, but that is where the PKs generally happened.

And that leads to stupid things like PCs refusing to enter areas where other PCs can lock doors. This doesn't make any sense thematically, because in reality, the doors to the Gaj should/could be locked if someone of appropriate rank or title wanted them to be. So it adds a gamey component to RP, where people avoid places that could codedly be locked, but freely go to places that SHOULD be able to be locked, but codedly can't be.

I don't personally play like this, but I've run into other PCs that do, and I find it incredibly immersion-breaking, because it instantly sends up red flags that the person is gaming the system rather than trying to appropriately roleplay a living, breathing character.

But this issue is a bit off topic for this thread. I still think that a notification system that gave victims of PK a reason for the PK 1 year after their death would help alleviate some of the bitterness with PC death, and would instill the playerbase with more confidence both in staff and their fellow players.

[Dar]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room. It requires observation, tracking, stalking, timing, preparation. What's so bad with that?

Nothing codedly is stopping you from killing someone out in the open. Except of course the ability of the victim to escape, the possible witnesses, and the guards.

If anything, locked room PK are the best option. Because it is difficult and requires preparation and if pulled off, gives you a chance to take your time once the target is incapacitated to give the victim some kind of a story. It's a lot more difficult when you decide to pull off a kill in the middle of the street.

People used to be afraid of being known as pickpockets. And you guys want people to expose themselves as attempted murderers? Seriously? A lot of PKing that happens in locked rooms are done to people of station. It is natural for a person to want to avoid the consequences of a PK by the murder remaining unsolved. It is natural and should be possible.

If you're insta PKilled. Please just assume that the real story happened out of your personal sight. Because it most likely did.