Let's Get Our Quota!!!!! Why PKing?

[Heade]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

[Lizzie]

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

I've been killed in closed rooms mostly because I panicked and didn't try to open the door. No idea if it was locked or not, heh. But the circumstances are - I went into that room with full knowledge that someone else was with me. Either they took me there, or I took them there, or I knew I was meeting someone there on purpose. No problem with the idea of that. I think I complained only once, but that was because the killer abused the Way to find out that the only person my PC would have tried to get help from, wasn't logged in at the time (we used to get a message saying that that adventurer was't in zalanthas or something similar - it's been changed since). So the killer knew they were safe to kill my PC.

A reason I'm all for PKing, and this is a typical thing.
You want someone dead. But your boss, or their boss, tells you not to. So you leave them be, and continue stewing and grumbling about it, while this target keeps doing things that made you want them dead in the first place.

They do it more and more, and become more and more influential, more and more badass, because all the "important people" keep saying "no, they're not a problem, let them live."

Eventually that person becomes a problem, even to the people who let him live for the past however many RL months. But now, it's infinitely more difficult to kill him. He has prestige, influence, max skills, power, and enough money to buy the INaction of anyone who was paid to act against him.

Months and months of your playtime, being frustrated because you just wanted this guy dead. And now everyone knows that your reasons for wanting him dead were 100% valid, but it's too late. He ends up killing the bunch of you. All because you didn't kill him first.

Happened several times in my years of playing, I'm sure it's happened to others.

[Veselka]

I always felt like apartment kills were the "B" in MCB 

[Dar]

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

I've been killed in closed rooms mostly because I panicked and didn't try to open the door. No idea if it was locked or not, heh. But the circumstances are - I went into that room with full knowledge that someone else was with me. Either they took me there, or I took them there, or I knew I was meeting someone there on purpose. No problem with the idea of that. I think I complained only once, but that was because the killer abused the Way to find out that the only person my PC would have tried to get help from, wasn't logged in at the time (we used to get a message saying that that adventurer was't in zalanthas or something similar - it's been changed since). So the killer knew they were safe to kill my PC.

A reason I'm all for PKing, and this is a typical thing.
You want someone dead. But your boss, or their boss, tells you not to. So you leave them be, and continue stewing and grumbling about it, while this target keeps doing things that made you want them dead in the first place.

They do it more and more, and become more and more influential, more and more badass, because all the "important people" keep saying "no, they're not a problem, let them live."

Eventually that person becomes a problem, even to the people who let him live for the past however many RL months. But now, it's infinitely more difficult to kill him. He has prestige, influence, max skills, power, and enough money to buy the INaction of anyone who was paid to act against him.

Months and months of your playtime, being frustrated because you just wanted this guy dead. And now everyone knows that your reasons for wanting him dead were 100% valid, but it's too late. He ends up killing the bunch of you. All because you didn't kill him first.

Happened several times in my years of playing, I'm sure it's happened to others.

This is a little bit more complicated then that, Lizzie.

Imagine another situation.

A guild boss is sitting on his throne. A new PC shows up and he's all uppity and doesnt want to join your gang. You have a chat with him and clearly the person wants to be a criminal. So he'll be a criminal outside of your gang, outside of your territory, victiming the people "you" are victimizing yourself. A competitor. And since he's not joining your gang, then the longer he lives, the more of a problem he will become.

That means the Boss should really really off that guy and he does. Until ... another PC shows up and another. And then people look at the last six month of labyrinth and notice that it's kind of quiet. Because this one guild boss is killing every newbie PC who doesnt insta join the gang. While in reality, there are thousands of vnpcs who never join his gang and are left unmolested.

There is a bit of an consideration to choosing not to solve all of your problems with a PK.  It is completely OOC. And it's a matter of wanting the game to be better and more interesting. Even at a price of your own personal characters 'win conditions'.

[Dar]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Just curious. Did this happen to you? If the hallways were made no_hide flagged, do you think this would've prevented it?

[Heade]

I dont understand.

Why is there such a distaste for a locked room PK? It requires you to "lure" the person into the locked room.

So, your premise is flawed. While "luring" people into a locked room might occasionally be the situation, there are many others where players are not "lured". Here is one such example of a locked room PK that is lame:

You walk down a narrow hallway to your apartment door.
>unlock door e
You unlock the door to the east.
>e
You walk through the door to the east.
>lock door w
You don't have the key.
The figure in a dark cloak locks the door with a *click*.
l figure
You don't see that here.
You scream out in pain as a dagger protrudes from your chest, dripping with your lifeblood.
You feel your muscles lock up, and you're unable to move.
Your vision goes black.

Currently, one of the most effective ways to kill another PC isn't to "lure" them into your apartment/locked room, but to shadow them into THEIR apartment and pickpocket their key so they can't escape. When you "lure" a PC into a locked room of your choosing, they have a lot more control over the situation(for instance, choosing not to go), and they're often "on guard" due to knowing how locked rooms work. People going into their own apartments often aren't prepared for combat.

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Just curious. Did this happen to you? If the hallways were made no_hide flagged, do you think this would've prevented it?

Yes, it has happened to me more than once. And if hallways were flagged as no_hide, I do believe it would have been prevented.

I'm confused about the locked room PK concern as well. Unless it's your room, and you're entering it alone, and you lock the door behind you, you sit down, put your stuff away, and then all of a sudden someone unhides (from where, exactly?) and pks you. Then I could understand some OOC frustration.

This is the way the majority of my attacks in locked apartments has been. It's mostly been people attacking in my own character's apartment after having shadowed them in there.

I wouldn't have much of an issue with it if I was betrayed by someone I let in, or if I knowingly went with someone into a room they then locked. I've had Templar PCs kill my PCs in locked rooms, and that isn't the lame sort of situation I'm talking about.

Basically, people shouldn't be able to "shadow" you through an apartment door. If they do, you should get a notification of "X forces their way in through the door behind you", and the system should automatically have you begin watching X.

If you think about how people move and such when they enter their apartment/home, the idea that someone could get through the door behind them without notice is absolutely absurd. People close the door before they're even fully out of the doorway. In any case of people being "followed" into their home, it's almost always a situation where an intruder pushes their way in behind you, and the threat is completely obvious.

I don't want apartments to be no hide rooms, because I still think apartment PKs should be able to happen. I just think there should be more involved than shadowing someone into their apartment. If someone goes through all the effort of spying on you to find out where you live, then makes sure you're not home, studies your schedule, breaks into your apartment while you're away and relocks the door, then hides and waits for you to get home, then surprise PKs you, I'm OK with that. They went through the proper steps to make a realistic apartment PK. But shadowing you into your apartment and "pickpocketing" a key that is presumably in your hand, preventing you from getting out of your apartment is NOT legit. Nothing about it is legit, from the shadowing to the pickpocketing something that you're physically holding on to.

[Dar]

So. If the corridors were no_hide flagged, but someone shadowed you in anyway. Fully visible, but their movements behind you are still silent.  Would you consider that your character was ... absent minded enough to actually allow the person to sneak in after you through the door? Not because he was hidden. A single look over your shoulder would've allowed you to see him. But because he was silent, you didnt bother looking, and he followed you in. Would that be kosher?

[Heade]

So. If the corridors were no_hide flagged, but someone shadowed you in anyway. Fully visible, but their movements behind you are still silent.  Would you consider that your character was ... absent minded enough to actually allow the person to sneak in after you through the door? Not because he was hidden. A single look over your shoulder would've allowed you to see him. But because he was silent, you didnt bother looking, and he followed you in. Would that be kosher?

It would be better than what we have now. It'd still be stupid, but I understand the technical limitations and that it would be far more difficult to code a script that revealed someone shadowing you into your apartment than to simply make apartment hallways no_hide. Currently, there is nothing to differentiate walking into an apartment from walking into any other room, from a code standpoint. So someone would have to come up with an inventive way to implement such a system.(I do have ideas on how to code it)

I think such a script is a worthwhile investment in development time. But until someone decides they have the time and inclination to implement such a system, "no_hide" flags on hallways makes an acceptable stand-in. All players should be made aware of the mechanic if implemented, though, so that they can know all they need to do is "look" before entering their apartment, and so that stealthy players also know what they're getting into if they shadow someone into an apartment building.

I'm not a fan of "surprise" no_hide rooms. I'd like to see no_hide flags made visible to players, since it should be obvious to the characters whether a place has hiding places or not as well.

[Inks]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

PK is what seperates the game from other, less realistic games. Yes some newer players may be quick to PK but if it makes sense then it is perfectly valid.

If you are getting PKed repeatedly across multiple characters I have no idea how your PCs are so hateable.  In 55 or so PC's I have had have maybe been PK'd three times. I wish it had been much more because some of those PCs of mine had it coming! It's an exciting way to go out.

[Dar]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

Come on, man. None of our perspectives are even 10% of what's going on in the game. No need to use such broad strokes.

[Heade]

I haven't seen a senseless PK in a long long time. Whatever character you are annoyed about dying somebody thought they deserved it, and took care of it.

I don't know who you're talking to, but assuming it's me, I'm not annoyed about a PC dying. I find particular mechanics of the game annoying, and that is what we're discussing, game mechanics. Let's try not to minimalize and assume people are just butthurt about losing a PC.

I want the game to be good for both stealthy PCs and apartment dwellers. I'm asking for a system that makes sense. That's all. I like playing stealthy characters, almost to the exclusion of all other character types, yet I am suggesting changes that wouldn't benefit stealthy characters. This isn't a self-interest suggestion.

If a staffer wants to look at my past characters, I'm sure they could confirm that probably 9 out of 10 of my PCs have had hide/sneak.

If you are getting PKed repeatedly across multiple characters I have no idea how your PCs are so hateable.  In 55 or so PC's I have had have maybe been PK'd three times. I wish it had been much more because some of those PCs of mine had it coming! It's an exciting way to go out.

We've RPed together, so you have had an opportunity to experience my playstyle. One difference between us might be that I tend to play human non-combat PCs quite often, so when people ATTEMPT to PK me, they're more likely to succeed than if they attack a dwarven fighter or something. I don't know what kind of character's you often play.

But almost every PC I've had has died to PK if they didn't die to some PvE thing first. I think I may have retired 3 PCs or so in 20 years of playing, and that was only because I had the PC in game during a long absence from the game, and they aged beyond a reasonable level of playability.

[Inks]

No I am not talking to anyone at all my dude! I only read the first page. I am talking 100% generally.

[Heade]

No I am not talking to anyone at all my dude! I only read the first page. I am talking 100% generally.

Ah, ok. Always difficult to tell when you don't quote what you're responding to in a multi-page thread. Also, see above. Added an edited response to you.

Also, I'm with you that I prefer to die to PK rather than some random PvE occurrence. Being PKed often means you mattered to the story in some way. That doesn't alter the fact that there are, indeed, some problems surrounding both the mechanics often employed to PK and the reasoning for doing so not being transparent, even years after the fact.

[Inks]

I would also like a small reason that doesn't spoil anyone's plot sent from those who PK me / to those I PK. That would be super awesome and provide closure.

[Heade]

I would also like a small reason that doesn't spoil anyone's plot sent from those who PK me / to those I PK. That would be super awesome and provide closure.

Agreed, and if it is sent exactly 1 year after PC death, and players know they can expect to get that notice later, I think it will be satisfying for everyone involved.

[ShaLeah]

I'm a HUGE pk advocate. Back when I  started it seemed to happen a lot MORE. It's interesting to me that people that haven't come from -that- era think that there's so much pk now. I've begun asking myself whether or not those players that are so against pk were players in Tuluk where no one (read: protagonists) ever died. Maybe they really just don't know how infrequent it happens when compared to olden times.

I'd KILL for the actual numbers. Pun intended.

[Lizzie]

This is a little bit more complicated then that, Lizzie.

Imagine another situation.

A guild boss is sitting on his throne. A new PC shows up and he's all uppity and doesnt want to join your gang. You have a chat with him and clearly the person wants to be a criminal. So he'll be a criminal outside of your gang, outside of your territory, victiming the people "you" are victimizing yourself. A competitor. And since he's not joining your gang, then the longer he lives, the more of a problem he will become.

That means the Boss should really really off that guy and he does. Until ... another PC shows up and another. And then people look at the last six month of labyrinth and notice that it's kind of quiet. Because this one guild boss is killing every newbie PC who doesnt insta join the gang. While in reality, there are thousands of vnpcs who never join his gang and are left unmolested.

There is a bit of an consideration to choosing not to solve all of your problems with a PK.  It is completely OOC. And it's a matter of wanting the game to be better and more interesting. Even at a price of your own personal characters 'win conditions'.

In that other situation, there are virtual guild bosses who already take care of the virtual criminal competitors. They're not conflicting with YOUR crew. They're conflicting with all those other virtual crews.

I don't recall ever hearing of any guild boss who killed every single PC *just because* that PC didn't immediately join up.  I've heard of characters showing up and being real assholes who, in addition to being assholes, refused to join. I've heard of characters who were (not very good at hiding it) secretly mages, who also refused to join. And people who spent all their time southside "gettin gud" who suddenly decided they were going to show up in the rinth and take over - who refused to join. Lots and lots of different situations in which someone was invited to join, and refused, and were killed because of a combination of things.

It's the combination that causes the PK, not exclusively refusal to join.

[rinthrat]

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Another common tactic is to figure out where the target lives, then break in and wait for your victim to come home. This is indistinguishable from the scenario you described, and a lot more believeable. So - there's a totally non-twinkish way this could have happened.

[Refugee]

If my PC PKs you, you've decided to cross him, his friends, or someone he works for in some way.  Making the enemy is your RP, planning your death is mine.  It'd be stupid for him to give you a chance if he has a choice.  He's gonna kill you the most efficient way he can.

That's all well and good.

I think most people just don't like that locked room mechanic is the end-all be-all for PK in 95% of cases. It's kind of a silly situation we're in that we have little other option.

I agree with that.  Especially reading about someone sneaking in your door with you and killing you, that's so unrealistic I'd never even considered it.

[Bebop]

What is attractive about this heavy handed approach to solving problems.  Since returning,  I've noticed it's the go to for many characters.  This isn't a critque, I'm just trying to understand why some just prefer player killing to either sticking to your area or threats, work arounds, espionage, or using the characters/blackmail. Hope ya'll have a great day!

Thanks in advance!

Oooooh, boy.  You done fucked up now son.  I posed this question when I came back a year ago.  And recently argued about it in "The Rinth Needs Teeth" thread.  Glad I'm not the only one.  After 5 years gone, and about a year and a half back?  It seems so ridiculously overused right now and super easy with the availability of perraine.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54137.0.html

It ended up being like seventeen pages long and it's still just as bad of a problem.  Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

[rinthrat]

Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

These super-long lived characters only managed to live that long because... nobody bothered, or managed to PK them. If PK becomes even harder, you'll have more of these characters, not less.

[Bebop]

Who needs deep story lines when you can just have the same super long-lived characters and insta-kill everyone else that slights you even a little!

These super-long lived characters only managed to live that long because... nobody bothered, or managed to PK them. If PK becomes even harder, you'll have more of these characters, not less.

I disagree.   And certain long lived PCs are pretty much impossible to kill as it is.  The virtual world is arbitrary and the meta doesn't properly reflect the docs in many ways.  I don't have the energy to delve into this again but it's nice to know another vet player who went on hiatus also picked up on this right away.  I'm so sick of how prolific PK and instakill is in this meta.  Let the story freaking deepen.  And I'm not saying don't punish people, like get shit started but don't constantly send the instakill nuke in, in this coded skill Cold War we've got going on where those that actually want to RP are dropping like flies because they haven't spammed up all their shit.  Ugh.  UGH.

[Heade]

Of course, it really doesn't make sense to be able to follow someone into their home without being seen. No matter how good you are at stealth, a door is generally made for 1 person to pass at a time, and if they close it as they walk through it, the likelihood of someone being able to slip in behind them UNDETECTED is virtually nil. The game mechanics currently allow it though, despite it being absurd.

Another common tactic is to figure out where the target lives, then break in and wait for your victim to come home. This is indistinguishable from the scenario you described, and a lot more believeable. So - there's a totally non-twinkish way this could have happened.

Yeah, breaking into someone's apartment and waiting it out is totally a legit strategy. That isn't what happened.

First off, doing so requires more patience, and people just generally take the fastest route to success. Secondly, if you're sitting around in someone's apartment for hours waiting for them to pop in, there is a high likelihood that your reaction time isn't going to be so fast that you pickpocket their key before they can even lock their own door.

Could the same scenario happen if someone put in the work, even if it wasn't possible to shadow people into their own apartments and pickpocket the key? Sure it could. But in that scenario, they put in the work to do it so it isn't a problem in my mind.

Only certain character builds have the skills necessary to break into an apartment and wait in hiding for the occupant to arrive, then successfully murderize them. On the other hand, almost any base class could shadow someone into their apartment(some requiring a specific subclass). There is just far less involved in the shadow/kill combo. Pickpocket is a nice ability to have to ensure they can't unlock the door, but often isn't even necessary if you're using poisons. Anyone can take a key off a corpse.

[roughneck]

It's not my style to do the locked room death, but I have shadowed people into their place. As I read through the thread, seeing some other sides to it. Here are are some counterpoints:

- The locked room death encourages clan play - you have a guarded place to keep your shit safe(er) and not get murderized. This is Zalanthas where people's children are dying for lack of food and water and nobody gives a shit about you or your shit because corruption abounds and if you're not nobility or a merchant house, you're a nobody with a shitty little bone and wood lock keeping you and your shit protected from the threats outside.

- Our apartments have 1 entry point and 1 vulnerability - nobody can sneak through windows, force a door with a prybar, or do any of the other reasonable things to threaten your property that someone could do in IRL - if we take away shadowing folks into their apartments, something else is needed to compensate. If you think that someone shadowing through a door is unrealistic, imagine they ran around the building and crawled through a window. Be thankful for what you have, we're approaching turkey season.

- Class specialization. We're really talking about Miscreants here. They're a cool class, but I feel like this is a great example of how there's a few circumstances where a more thematic approach makes sense. If you're a stealthy criminal, it makes sense you have a specialization, rather than being a master of locks, pickpocketing, poisons etc. I really like the new classes, but I miss the thematic streaming that a different approach to specialization brings.

- Imagine if your 500 'sid a month really did get you a Walla Walla level fortification? This thread would be about a whole other list of complaints.

- I read a complaint about PC's playing a style of always being nervous about being alone in locked rooms with people. Well FUCK YES! That means the game is working. Our PC's should be suspicious, nervous and anxious about being robbed and murdered. Our PC's are generally WAAAAAAY richer than the VNPC population. Our PC's should be walking targets. This desire to be a super rich, independent person in a place like Allanak without an extreme level of threat to you and your belongings needs to be tempered - it doesn't track.

[Lizzie]

I see plenty of variety in situations. I see characters being killed, and I see characters being maimed, hurt, warned, befriended, allied with, begrudgingly accepted, hired, and rejected without death as a result.

If one person is experiencing a lot of PK, or their OOC friends are all seeing a lot of PK, then I'd suggest that maybe it's not the people doing the killing that's the problem. Maybe these "victims" are behaving in a way that a PK is a totally appropriate result (not merely one that you can come up with an excuse, but actually appropriate).

I've seen people give characters a few chances before finally saying "you know what, you still haven't quite grasped the fact that pissing me off is a stupid thing to do. It's time to die now."

What I do NOT see a lot of, is obvious new players (not just new characters) being PKed unless they repeatedly do something ICly dumb and aren't listening to both IC and OOC warnings (such as, "ooc hey new guy don't use "kill" in the bar, use "hit" and don't draw your weapons or you'll get ganked") And I don't even see a whole lot of that, either.

I do see PKs, but I'm not seeing any problem with them. From my perspective, none of the ones I know about have been "senseless" at all.