The Rinth Needs Teeth

[Bebop]

I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.

[Bebop]

If anything I'd like to make the Rinth even more deadly.

1) I like the idea of crossing territories dangerous to the wrong race. Moar conflict. Moar dead elf babies to practice backstab. 100% behind that.
2) I am 100% against making it less dangerous in favor of player happiness and chatacter longevity. There are roles that last longer. A rinth ANYTHING is not one of those roles.
3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.

We are advocating for the same things.  Leaders especially guild leaders that actually want to play outside if their compounds are too at risk.  This meta encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors.  That's the problem.  It's inhibiting RP.  A year from now I will happily provide extensive ig examples.

[Veselka]

I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.

Actually no, I'd be just fine with that too.

[lairos]

Pretty sure this already happens and has been happening. Explain to me the difference of pking a guilder in their territory or a jaxa pah in theirs with pking an aod sergeant, noble or templar in theirs?

Each has chances of having coded problems arise. Each have staff response, immediate or not. Each has player response to whatever that may be as well. You point out you are ok with pk, but your not ok with assassinations which doesn't seem very real itself and would be a huge detrement to criminals themselves actually.

I've watched high profile pcs in organizations walk around and be seen just fine. It's a matter of the actions of your character and others that determines outcomes.

[Dar]

There were instances when an elf group have massacred guild bosses west side, only to have NPC muls step up and remind the elves that the guild is larger then a group of PCs. But that usually happens when the scales are uneven. Ie a 6 month old group of elf PCs snuffing out a second guild boss who is less then a week old. Even if that guild boss basically forced the elves to do it.  So if scales are uneven, staff does intervene. Mostly to allow the fledgling group to flourish, instead of reinforcing guild might. But when both groups have a healthy membership, or certain well reported deeds have been done to provoke this action. It is allowed to continue naturally.

[Bebop]

I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.

Actually no, I'd be just fine with that too.

Then we agree on something.  I just think it'd be better to have code in place that represents this instead of needing to go to these drastic measures or having to wish up.  I am all for PK as deserved.  I have had imm animated character basically decide I needed to die.  And I did, for reasons they knew of IG and others they didn't know.  I have known people that don't even want to start RPing until they are coded badasses with perraine at their disposal.  All they want to do is RP the same stoic badass that "wins."  Almost every character, every time.  I want to see leaders out of their Estates doing shit.  If insta-kill and perraine are less prolific they can do that without having to fear every character who's been around a RL month or two and is totally code-based. 

There needs to be some breathing room for social characters and ever since I've been back to the game I don't feel like there's much.  I have a lot I could say about the current meta but ultimately I just believe that you can create an infrastructure that rewards role play and properly represents the virtual world.  This forces people that otherwise might not respect it to have to take it into consideration.  In many instances, I do not believe the honor system works and I don't believe in putting good stories in constant needless peril because we are counting on every player to acknowledge the virtual world.  We leave too much of the virtual world open to interpretation or would be abusers.

And what I'm trying to point out here is that sometimes the code is in flagrant opposition to the documentation.  I do not believe this to be malicious but I also do not believe in keeping things a certain way because "it's just been that way for awhile."  I am absolutely a proponent of making the code more deadly in dangerous in some areas.  Ergo, if you attack in the rinth you gonna get attacked by the criminal organization that runs those streets if you go after one of their own.  I would be happy if there was not a single guard on the streets at night other than a few very select locations.  I am all for making the game more dangerous in some respects.  But what I'm not in favor of is an OP insta nuke that should be exceptionally rare that is actually prolific.  I want the game to make better sense from an OOC respect.

This would be a quality of life change in regards to realism socially for all involved.  I don't get the problem requesting this.  Nobles have more privilege and safety.  Guild NPC enforcers where the Guild territory is.  Being able to backstab someone in one shot should require extensive time, code respect.  Targets at the dingy tavern should be easier PK kills.  I am NOT just flagrantly saying make the game easier to survive.  That is an over generalization.

[mansa]

In my opinion,

It's not a labyrinth problem but a conflict problem, as there isn't easy ways to conduct it.  We're playing characters in a game, and our characters can regenerate hit points by sleeping.  The only thing that 'sticks' is death, unless you act on politics - which is where the social pecking order in Tuluk was great at.


Maybe if injuries could be more roleplayed out by everyone, people would take threats of injury more realistic - and we could use that instead of just the finality of death...

Just a thought after reading the thread.

[MeTekillot]

If only there were a coded way to inflict lasting injuries as another means of consequence.

[Brokkr]

I want to see leaders out of their Estates doing shit.

Is it a case of leaders that are chicken that keeps somewhere from becoming the new Trader's Inn for nobles/Templars/Aides and others?

Or is it a case of leaders logging in and being mostly afk, because they are either on their phone or at work?

Demographics and technology has changed since Trader's was a bustling place.

[tapas]

Personally I think it's silly that a clan's security is contingent on how many skilled players are online at a time. It just leads to all kinds of gamey behavior for what is ostensibly a role playing game.

[Greve]

Personally I think it's silly that a clan's security is contingent on how many skilled players are online at a time. It just leads to all kinds of gamey behavior for what is ostensibly a role playing game.

That's a very important point. It varies from clan to clan how much of their power and importance is tied to the actual PCs, and in the case of the Guild, it's basically 100%. If there happens to be no PC with personal power in the clan, the entire clan becomes literally worthless--and that's often the case. It's a bad representation of its documentation. It's like if militia PCs were the only representatives of the law.

If you start picking fights with almost any other clan, you can bet NPCs and virtual elements will stand up against it. GMH seniors will make a presence, animated Kurac captains will weigh in, red robes have been known to get involved in assassinations, tribal NPCs can and do get animated for defense at times; but the Guild? I've never seen it. You can murder their members with impunity and publically display your lack of regard for the organization, and unless the PCs themselves can retaliate, noone will. Its supposed power and influence is completely imaginary and is never allowed to come into play.

The documentation tells us that this is a universally feared medieval mafia with a heavy hand in almost all Allanaki dealings, but there's no backing for that. If the Guild PCs can't make something happen of their own accord, it won't happen. If they can't defend the organization themselves, it won't be defended. Time and time again we see their leaders murdered sometimes in their base of operation and there's noone to do anything about it because the PC leadership is effectively the CEO of the Guild, in stark defiance of the docs. Take them out and there's probably noone left to retaliate. It operates exactly like a band of raiders.

[kahuna]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

[Dar]

There are also a various degrees of affiliations. Something you would learn by playing in the guild. There are gangs out there who "do" help guild members, but are not themselves the Guild. Moreso, the crew that you would call "The Guild" isnt "The Guild" per se either. If you want to meet real "Guild" members, you need to go to their compound. Which 'does' exist and 'is' guarded by a shitton of guards.

The crew that usually runs out of the Folley are, well at this point, it's basically find out IG. I'm sorry. But there are differences in ranks and amount of shit that the Guild gives varies by those ranks.

In general, unfortunately, the Folley crew has not risen to the points of being Fully "The Guild" for many many many years. 

But guys. If you prefer to play in a clan that has different rules. Don't play in the guild. It's a different clan. It's not a GMH. It's not a military organization. It's not a tribe. It's a unique clan on it's own. It lacks certain things that those other clans have. But it also allows some AWESOME things that other clans do not.

One such thing is that it's a lot more malleable. If you have the leadership ability, the gravitas, the skill, the strength of character, and the irl free time to make it into something GREAT. You can do that. It'll be hard and the likelyhood is low. But if you fail, you will fail because of other player's actions and not the invisible hand of vnpc leadership of the clan.

How often do you guys play in a tribe, or a house and you wonder how much can you truly affect the clan you're in? Can you really exercise some 'empire building' ambitions? Or will the Head Merchants, Senior Nobles, Elders shoot you down whenever you get too ambitious?

None of that in the guild. Be as ambitious as you like. The only glass ceiling really is when you start collecting so many magick users/psionicsts/deserter templars so that you begin attracting some SERIOUS attention from the Red/Black Templarate. Or if you go on a 'competition nullification program' and kill "every" pc in the rinth that doesnt immediately join your clan. Only then, do the guild vnpc leadership start showing itself.

[Riev]

The crew that usually runs out of the Folley are, well at this point, it's basically find out IG. I'm sorry. But there are differences in ranks and amount of shit that the Guild gives varies by those ranks.

This, specifically, I want to touch on, because I've tried to hammer this point home a bit in the past and it kind of falls on deaf ears.

The Guild (which you shouldn't even know exists, its the boogeyman of children's stories) is really a conglomeration of all the human-run street gangs. They're the ones everyone pays up to, and the ones everyone is afraid will visit them when they steal the purse of the wrong person. There SHOULD BE, documentation-wise, a separation between "the PC gang that work out of the 'rinth" and "the members of the Guild, who have some oversight/wide knowledge of what is going on".

If you are a pickpocket, and you're really good at it. You join the "Crew". That Crew may pay up to The Guild at times. Might even be given work from The Guild, hopefully, because that shit pays well. But you aren't The Guild. You don't represent them. If you survive long enough with the current Crew, MAYBE you'll be brought in on some secrets of the Guild (like learning it ACTUALLY exists). Even then, you're just now knowledgeable that it exists. The Boss might not even be someone you've met yet, and The Boss might only be the lowest rung.

I feel, and this may be just me, that people "know the Guild exists" which pulls its mystery. People join "the Guild" in westside, expecting intrigue and breaking into compounds and stealing from templars and stuff... but REALLY that crew is 'just another crew'. Or should be. If that Crew is really good, maybe the Guild has ideas for them.

[ShaLeah]

3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.

We are advocating for the same things.  Leaders especially guild leaders that actually want to play outside if their compounds are too at risk.  This meta encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors.  That's the problem.  It's inhibiting RP.  A year from now I will happily provide extensive ig examples.

No. We're not.

It appears to me that you are attempting to justify a player who takes a (more) dangerous (than normal) sponsored role [such as that game backbone, the Byn Sgt or that crime 'boss'] hiding because outside the 4 walls their turf is dangerous.

You know what encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors? Players trying not to die.  Players meta'ing, choosing to hide behind code that postpones the inevitable. 

Again.  The Labyrinth is a lawless area.  Unless The Guild as a whole controls, protects, pays and feeds every single person on the west side nerfing the code to auto assist a guild boss isn't believable.

I speak from experience when I say that in the real world people NOT part of the gang will turn their backs and not see NOTHING much less help. 

[Lutagar]

The Guild (which you shouldn't even know exists, its the boogeyman of children's stories)

Where did you get this from? The docs indicate they're well known. To give a few samples:

The clan itself has been around for as many years as one can remember

Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations.

There is no doubt that they have eyes and ears almost everywhere in town hiding in the darkest corners and even among many other organizations.

You also said:

I feel, and this may be just me, that people "know the Guild exists" which pulls its mystery. People join "the Guild" in westside, expecting intrigue and breaking into compounds and stealing from templars and stuff... but REALLY that crew is 'just another crew'. Or should be. If that Crew is really good, maybe the Guild has ideas for them.

Docs say:

The Guild is rumored to work out of the Westside of the infamous network of abandoned alleys and streets in northern Allanak known as the Labyrinth

Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

[Brokkr]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146

Not even close.  These numbers are approximate, given a lot has happened between then and now IC'ly.

[Dar]

Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.

[Lutagar]

Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.

The actual guild itself is so inaccessible to players it may as well be virtual.

At this point I really wish they'd make them a faction of NPC antagonists and make the folley something entirely separate.

[kahuna]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146

Not even close.  These numbers are approximate, given a lot has happened between then and now IC'ly.

500k is a lot! That's Roman era type of population, very cool. I wonder what the break down would be between "nak proper" and the labyrinth?

[Lizzie]

Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.

The actual guild itself is so inaccessible to players it may as well be virtual.

At this point I really wish they'd make them a faction of NPC antagonists and make the folley something entirely separate.

That is just - not true.

Basically - and this is probably current, and I know it goes back over a decade, and points inbetween:

The "tradition" of the guild was not to join it. It was to be invited, or extorted, or blackmailed into it. You're brought in, you don't ask to be in. That was how it was. Sometimes, that isn't how it is. It wasn't usually very accessible, and that was the point. It was secretive, and exclusive, and no one would walk into the bar and ever ask to become a member of it.

They might be seen by a member - and noticed for doing something (or not doing something) - and then offered protection. And then watched for awhile. And maybe, possibly, given a bite to eat, a piece of crappy gear, an extra throwing knife - and if that person lived for another month without doing anything stupid, AND proved that they could actually be useful - they were given tasks. They still weren't told that the person asking them to do tasks was a guild member. That person might not even BE a guild member. It might be one of those unranked, unclanned "potential members" being given a task, which was to give someone else tasks. You never REALLY knew how deep this went. If they succeeded promptly and efficiently and discretely - maybe after another month - they were brought in to the lower actual ranks of the Guild.

That's how it was, and how it had been for a very long time.

If people are expecting otherwise now, then the Guild might not be what it was intended to be, and has turned into something else.

[Riev]

If people are expecting otherwise now, then the Guild might not be what it was intended to be, and has turned into something else.

I'm guilty of this as a former Boss myself, however; its definitely got a feeling of "the 'rinthi Byn". You show up at a place, ask if anyone is hiring, become a Runner, survive for a while more, maybe become a Trooper who can finally do some work. Keep surviving, and maybe you'll become a Sergeant one day.

Its a lot more structured, somehow, than "You do something to impress me, and maybe I have a job for you". More "Let me into your stupid clan because that's why I'm here, or I'm going to go join someone elses"

[Dar]

Well. Because it's so PC oriented. Then the gang is as the gang members make it. You want it one way. You got it. You want it another way, you make it another way. No right, or wrong.  Regardless, you're just pushing sid up the chain to the big kahuna that you will never see. And it really doesnt matter how the big kahuna's are stractured, because all 'you' need to care about is having the profit to send it up the chain. How you do it is up to you.

[Hauwke]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

I thought the population of Allanak was closer to 500,000?

[MeTekillot]

These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.