The Rinth Needs Teeth

[Medivh]

Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.

So what's in place is inadequate to represent staff's view of the game world. Because players needed a reminder, and staff had to animate to show how strong the Guild really is.

There's no documentation a player can find that states the Guild is actually more powerful then the rinth tribes. In fact, they don't even get a single mention in 'what you know' as a rinthi pc. So a common street thug rinth pc could kill a guilder as a random act of violence, not even knowing who they are. That's playing by the docs. Would they then get a guild mul sent after them to remind them that... this group that not everyone even knows about in their own backyard is the most powerful organization there?

There's such a disconnection in what players see, docs say, and staff's views sometimes.

[Armaddict]

The staff view changes over time just as much as player views do.

This particular one is 'relatively' recent, pretty much at around the same era as 'We should consolidate everyone into as few places as possible.'  The idea of an actual interesting dynamic is secondary to making things easier.

The guild was never 'bar none' the most powerful group in the 'rinth.  It was always a mayhem up there between groups, to the point that Kurac was removed from that fray because of how being a merchant house affected it.  Hell, there was a period of time where the Guild had elven bosses more often than not.

HOWEVER!  That's not to say that people just go around shivving Guilders, because uneasy peaces are the rule up there, not the exception.  While some PC's have played 'LET'S GO TO WAAAAR, YEEEAAAAAH', it's never in anyone's benefit which is usually known.  It erupts sometimes over grievous acts...like elves killing a boss in the street and pretending it was no big deal and they were totally fine.  Granted, instead of an uber mul, woulda been a lot cooler if some eastside elves showed up with another Guild boss and had an argument before agreeing to execute one of the elves to maintain the peace, but hey...gotta show that clan support.

[Brokkr]

Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.

So what's in place is inadequate to represent staff's view of the game world. Because players needed a reminder, and staff had to animate to show how strong the Guild really is.

There's no documentation a player can find that states the Guild is actually more powerful then the rinth tribes. In fact, they don't even get a single mention in 'what you know' as a rinthi pc. So a common street thug rinth pc could kill a guilder as a random act of violence, not even knowing who they are. That's playing by the docs. Would they then get a guild mul sent after them to remind them that... this group that not everyone even knows about in their own backyard is the most powerful organization there?

There's such a disconnection in what players see, docs say, and staff's views sometimes.

There are some aspects of the Guild that aren't in any player facing documents.  There are aspects of the Guild that aren't represented in NPCs, room descriptions, echos or other immediately apparent things.

Given that the Guild is (supposedly) a secret (or secretive at least) organization, this seems reasonable.  Let me quote some things, from the player facing helpfile, that would seem to reinforce that the Guild is a)  Secretive and b) powerful.

Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations.  No one seems to know much about the intricate affairs of this highly secretive group

their reach seem to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business.

If you choose to play contrary to the documents, because PC power dynamics don't match how the game world has been framed, not always, but sometimes, those elements of the game world should be reinforced.  Through reports (if you submit them), animations, etc.

[Harmless]

I only very recently found out a critical few details behind the Guild and its functions that explains the power differential.

I've played over a decade. I've definitely been involved in rinthi activities a few times in that time. Only recently, did I learn a detail about the Guild that would fully explain why no elf, no merchant, not even most nobles would openly act in defiance of the entire Guild.

A few select members of the Guild may earn ire and a vendetta, depending on what they had done. Depending on whether or not those members of the Guild were actually acting in the interest of the Guild. Depending on their rank in the Guild. Etc.

If your target is an member in good standing and acting truly in the interests of the Guild, then to openly defy them would be suicidal.

It's expected that people in Allanak and the Rinth live in fear of the Guild's workings and those who fail to do so are in for some sort of IC consequences.

If you intend to be a random wanton murderer it might help to do what you can to find out who is a Guild member first so you don't accidentally target any of them.

Sorry I can't spoil the Why here but there's some important Whys out there for people to find out IC.

[Armaddict]

Ehhh.  Some pretty fantastic things on the east as well that have probably been lost over time or just retconned by someone who didn't want to deal with it.  Or maybe it's just still there and no one's paying attention.

Basically, so many pieces of documentation have been picked and chosen by people who wanted to change things around that it's pretty much a 'meh' when people try to convince me of canon.  It's all just some other player who I may or may not have had differing views with as a player, who decided they wanted to staff or lead, and deciding what gets remembered and what doesn't.

I've played Guild leaders, I've played eastsiders, I've played Kuraci 'rinthers, and with pretty much constant 'rinth involvement, I can say in earnest that the only 'rinth -worth having- is the one where power-blocs are waning, waxing, and risky.  Try to make one superior as a rule and it all becomes -boring- and pointless.  Trying to push the narrative in that direction is short-sighted, lazy, and downright poor creative power.  Not to mention is makes you feel like 'Your hand is forced' to remind people how things are...because that isn't actually how they are.

[Brokkr]

Ehhh.  Some pretty fantastic things on the east as well that have probably been lost over time or just retconned by someone who didn't want to deal with it.  Or maybe it's just still there and no one's paying attention.

Or, depending on specifically what you are referring to, IC events could have changed the particulars of what you knew.

[Inks]

Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.

Psh Jaxa Pah Families outnumber guild at least ten to one. Also animating a buffed mul to one shot a pc elven tribe isn't good for the game even if they have dropped some guilder on Hathors.PC guild members are low tier.

[mansa]

Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.

Psh Jaxa Pah Families outnumber guild at least ten to one.  ...

Perhaps you should read the documents about the world.  That information above is incorrect.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Labyrinth%20Details
http://armageddon.org/help/view/The%20Guild
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Jaxa%20Pah

[Brokkr]

Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.

Psh Jaxa Pah Families outnumber guild at least ten to one. Also animating a buffed mul to one shot a pc elven tribe isn't good for the game even if they have dropped some guilder on Hathors.PC guild members are low tier.

First, you VASTLY overestimate the number of Jaxa Pah, or vastly underestimate the numbers of the Guild.  Not sure which.  Second, numbers aren't necessarily power.  Third, you must have missed context of my statement about a mul.

[Strongheart]

Maybe give them context then lol I believe you're referring to the time a mul was animated to hunt down a bunch of elves emoteless and sayless in elven territory. How is it okay to only sometimes animate a "realistic" world response and other times none at all anyhow?

[Armaddict]

Maybe give them context then lol I believe you're referring to the time a mul was animated to hunt down a bunch of elves emoteless and sayless in elven territory. How is it okay to only sometimes animate a "realistic" world response and other times none at all anyhow?

False.  It was not in elven territory, which is why I'm saying there are cases where this kind of action is justified, but not necessarily -good-, because entire dynamics at play could have been -shown- to players.  This case wasn't bad, either, though.  When elves don't act like elves, don't treat 'em like elves.

As far as things changing IC, the events that would have to change would be incredibly noticeable and probably have another laser light show in the sky, so I'm pretty sure I didn't miss that.

[Strongheart]

Ah, I was told that the mul no emoted/sayed into the Mantis (which is mostly populated by elves regardless of the Guild power there) and slaughtered all they could. Apparently one escaped and the mul hunted them down, proceeding to kill them. If elves aren't acting like elves then storage does exist -- were the players even warned of their transgression before this went down?

[Armaddict]

Ah, I was told that the mul no emoted/sayed into the Mantis (which is mostly populated by elves regardless of the Guild power there) and slaughtered all they could. Apparently one escaped and the mul hunted them down, proceeding to kill them. If elves aren't acting like elves then storage does exist -- were the players even warned of their transgression before this went down?

Honestly, there's a lot of hubbub around this incident that isn't really warranted.  It wasn't that they were playing crappy elves (was a nice little gang actually), it was that it began to develop into 'open power struggle' rather than the subversive element that east and west are famous for.  Like I said, there could have been really cool ways to accomplish the same thing, but I'm not -really- that concerned with it.

Hathor's ain't the place to fight open wars, open wars ain't the way to vie for control, and there ain't nothin' wrong with NPC's showing up to take drastic action when drastic actions are taken.  Not the greatest death, but it was a death worth having.

The only reason I'm being vocal right now is because I think it's odd that the shift happened to make a single power-bloc in the alleys when traditionally, and shown geographically, this is not the case.  This isn't a 'one can wipe out the other whenever it wants' scenario, for a multitude of reasons.  Likewise, I think it's odd that we're getting documentation that -reads- in a flavor way, much like other 'flavor' statements about groups, as emphasis on its power standing.  In the middle of a thread.  We're told it's vague for a reason, and that this shouldn't be known, but people who -act- with characters as if its unknown are supposed to be prepared to have the world destroy them.

I'm pretty sure those words on documentation are meant to show it's a shadow power involved in lots of dealings.  Not that they are an omnipresent stifling power that no one can possibly mess with.  Otherwise, game lore recorded in various documents and thousands of power struggle events over 20 years -make no sense-.

[Strongheart]

No arguments there! Well said.

[Brokkr]

Maybe give them context

 

The context of the post. 

Right below Riev's, which it was an obvious response to. A response that is obviously about the negative consequences of animating in certain ways to reinforce IC lore.

lol I believe you're referring to the time a mul was animated to hunt down a bunch of elves emoteless and sayless in elven territory. How is it okay to only sometimes animate a "realistic" world response and other times none at all anyhow?

It was an oblique reference to that particular animation.  Which the whole thing went down on Hathor's.  No, I wasn't the person animating, but I was online for it.

Animating sometimes is perfectly fine.  This is not about fairness.  Some folks got to play stuff 15 years ago that you can't play now.  That is also, in a way, unfair.  Unfair is fine.  Biased is not fine.

Also, regarding my comment about the Guild power, given the size of the Rinth its not like any group is the BOSS.  Its just that they are powerful, not that they dominate.  Although players tend to gravitate to that perspective, because they focus on the power dynamics of PCs.  Which is fine, as long as the larger context of the Rinth is taken into mind.

[Nile]

Elf tribes constantly murdering each other vs a much more orderly westside....westside wins unless you somehow solve all those long standing grievances. The eastside is far more socially fractured than the west is.

[spicemustflow]

open jaxa pah

[Doublepalli]

"Suicidal elves overstep their bounds repeatedly and try and mess with the known groups in power in the rinth, being Guild/Kurac/Jaxah"

"Elves get a realistic world response."

"Elf players cry."

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Ok, I'm really ignorant about all the nuances of how the 'rinth works, but seems I had an idea...

If, for example, there is some nasty mul character that can be or has been sent after bad players who do bad things, why don't we just have this badass mul as the body guard, or the guild leader in the first place?

Like.. where was this guy before this stuff happened??

[rohenne]

according to documentation the guild has a whole lot of badass mul enforcers, among other scarier things.  what people are complaining about it that its a crap shoot whether they show up when they are actually needed, the specific case being when lonefoots are throwing curses and knives into a tavern that is loaded down with virtual and non virtual guard npcs because they know ooc that there are no guild pc's who could come out and fight them for it.

which is kinda cheese.  Like I could see throwing one or two knives and then kicking boots away but brazenly standing outside a tavern loaded with enemies and pretending like only the PC's exist and the npc's and vnpc's are utterly ignored is kindof silly.

to me that is the perfect time for staff to animate something to teach them why that's a bad idea. 

I mean as a guilder fucking around trying to start fights on east-side I've had the whole place start rioting and npcs coming from everywhere and vnpcs crowds throwing autodamage volleys of rocks from the roofs at me when those npc's couldnt finish the job.

and then after I escaped west side npc's were animating to tell me what a stupid idiot I was for doing that.

and that was for way less than throwing threats and knives into a jaxah compound.


but then sometimes...... Nothing. 


i don't know anything about building game code, but it seems to be me as simple as making the npc's/vnpcs in the folley have a code that makes them attack aggressors with ranged weapon volleys when they are acting like fools right outside the folley.

if people want to talk about "fair" this and that,  the same thing could be done with the Mantis, although I don't remember ever hearing about guilders standing right outside the mantis taking potshots,  I think the Npc's in there might actually come out and fight if that happens. 

personally I would be fine with any space filled with hostile npc's and vnpc's being able to do that.


i have been lots of places where shooting into a building loaded with npc's and vnpc's yielded autodamage volleys back at me.  I dunno if that was coded or staff animation each time or what, but I think it sends a very clear message the world is larger than whatever pc's are currently representing it.

[gotdamnmiracle]

When I played a guild boss our entire stock of heramide leaves were stolen by a PC because there was no adequate locks or guards to keep that from happening. Lol

I think the Guild is right up there with the Dust Runners in clans that probably shouldn't exist due to the lack of love they receive. Like in the other thread, the sewers are aenemic and the alleys lack life and change, though there are plenty of NPCs to train on anyone trying to play only in the Rinth is a madman who is either impervious to boredom or is trying to skill up perhaps. I truly respect the players who make the Guild/ Rinth feel alive, but they are the only ones who are doing the part to make it so. The Rinth should probably go the way of Tuluk if no one can be bothered to maintain it.

[Dresan]

Reading some of the things in this thread make me roll my eyes.

Despite all the thieves I've played, I can't say I have ever played in the guild and most likely never will.

All powerful entities ruling from the shadows, with secret documentation that is very subject to retcon as needed, with warehouses full of coins and steel, and protectors that can cause light shows in the sky is just not my cup of tea. But then again I feel the same way for tavern sitting and fountain RP.

I understand this is staff method of maintaining order and stability in the game but feels like most of the time these groups just stifle creativity from players. This is because these entities are most often used just maintain the status quo. Ideally these entities should go back to just being background information and their existence being used to justify some of the ideas listed in the 'rinth needs love' thread.

I hope the game just continues to add secret room and hidden stuff to find in wilderness areas because at some point salker/thief will be the last bastion of freedom left...well until a sorcerer finds you at least.