The Rinth Needs Teeth

[number13]

I've got to say the reason the instant kill is used? I've seen countless times if you try to talk, give an emote or anything people will : A: hide standing in front of you while talking to them. B: spam flee the hell out of there..

I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

That's not really the kind of instakill I'm worried about. In that situation, you should be restraining or killing that criminal PC, imo.

The 'bad' instakills are when someone creeps up and hits the target with strong poison, or a character with massive combat skills types 'backstab'. There might be extraordinary roleplay from the assassin. It doesn't matter from the perspective of the corpse, or all the plots that just got destroyed.  It's just too easy to instakill -- there's not enough of a gateway preventing players from getting strong poisons (or certain spells for that matter), and no reasonable defense other than hiding away forever.

The Rinth is uniquely bad at training up characters who are capable of procuring these kinds of poisons, in theory, at least. Ideally, an alleyborn character should almost never be out in the wilderness, except for very short jaunts.

[Riev]

Also note:

'Rinthi characters that are killing elves? Get targeted by elven PCs. It isn't 'easy' to twink there. If you're killing the 'easier' humans? Often times, the Guild is territorial about it (to a point). Its not "easy" to twink up, it just seems that way because you never see them in a bar, idling. Code-focused characters are rarely sitting and waiting for the social RP to catch up to them.

Instant-kills are necessary because, as Derain said, this is a game where people WILL use whatever code they have to escape. Hiding. Fleeing. Threaten and flee-for-free hits only do so much unless you're a massive fighter. Nobody practices subdue because unless you're a Half Giant it feels useless.

I don't know how to address it, because giving more options to "cripple or restrain" are 100% going to lead to "restrain first, because its easier, THEN kill them while they are helpless". On far too many characters, I've heard that I should "just kill them, an alive enemy is just trouble and nobody can question a corpse".

[kahuna]

Instant-kills are necessary because, as Derain said, this is a game where people WILL use whatever code they have to escape. Hiding. Fleeing. Threaten and flee-for-free hits only do so much unless you're a massive fighter. Nobody practices subdue because unless you're a Half Giant it feels useless.

They are not necessary. Who cares if the guy gets away? If you're in the militia you already have a massive advantage over any indie that you're going up against, code wise. This goes for any clan in the game going against an independent criminal, raider, etc. The clans always have the numbers advantage, usually gear advantage and can always use code to screw your PC over.

I am of a mind that you should foster roleplay, not try to 'win' every single situation in the game, it strays dangerously close to griefing when people are getting attacked by militia PCs because they know the crimcode will screw them over. Kurac has done this numerous times in Luirs and it still happens to this day. There is a reason you never see criminal PCs for the most part, it isn't fun to get stomped by the coded advantages clans have over you.

[Riev]

In an ideal world, I 100% agree. We should be fostering the Roleplay. I've had outdoor fight scenes where I've disengaged, and RP'd it, and the other person did the same and we had a good scene out of it.

The trouble is, when your assignment is "kill Kahuna", your only choice is instant-kill burst DPS. Otherwise you fail, and while people SAY that "failing is part of the fun", the fun for me is not in "being killed yourself because you weren't able to one-hit kill this troublesome person".

And I think the reason you don't see them, PERSONALLY, is that 'criminal' is basically 'assassin'. If you see them, they didn't do their job. Pickpockets. Burglars. Liars, cheats, thieves... they all exist but it can't be KNOWN in Allanak or you have to leave.

And yes, I think that's because of the massive advantage an AoD private gets to basically do whatever they want with you. Corruption be damned, nothing feels better than "actually arresting a thief".

[kahuna]

If the other person is in "kill mode" sure you can do the same but I think restraint when you play in certain clans is required. There is a crimcode that works very well against people breaking the laws. Outside the cities? It's fair game, I'm all for smashing people outside or in the 'rinth, my gripe is mainly areas with crimcode and clans with locked doors knowing they can "get you" by using the code to their advantage.

One way to fix some of this is to add more climb rooms. I don't think clan compounds should be impenetrable fortresses with only one exit/entrance. People should be able to get in via climb/air rooms, would make for some very interesting burglaries and break-ins.

This has already been done in Allanak with a lot more rooftops which gives a lot more freedom and love to criminals to 'get away'. One of the best additions I think in general to the game was adding that area to the game.

[Riev]

Cool but that has nothing to do with the 'rinth needing teeth, that's its own separate discussion.

In the 'rinth, you tend to foster people who burst DPS/insta-kill first, because to do otherwise is basically suicide. To the point that a Guild Boss, while typically codedly powerful, ends up in more of a political position that means they are a constant target.

Unlike a GMH Merchant, who operates in a lawful part of the city, or a noble with a guard, a Guild Boss is basically just some gangbanger who can't leave their home base. Its too easy to just kill them, and wait 2 RL months for another to come along that will work with you better.

I think the difference is... if you keep killing Kadian Overseers until one decides to work with you, you get ICly punished. Even Templars can't just eradicate the entire crew of a clan without repercussions. But you can kill Guild members day and night, and suffer no ill will because... what... now the spice you weren't buying in the first place is a little slower?

[number13]

I think the difference is... if you keep killing Kadian Overseers until one decides to work with you, you get ICly punished. Even Templars can't just eradicate the entire crew of a clan without repercussions. But you can kill Guild members day and night, and suffer no ill will because... what... now the spice you weren't buying in the first place is a little slower?

Exactly my original point, but better stated.

It should be noted that I'm not advocating for Guild members to be invincible, anymore than a Kadian Overseer should be invincible. But you should have your ducks in a row before pulling the trigger on a Guild boss, or assaulting their holdings. If your attack is brazen, then the response should be equally brazen. And, there should be feuds in the Rinth, just as there feuds on the southside.

On the flipside, that death or the threat of death always be the response to an attack isn't what I'm looking for, at all. Dropping the head of a Templar's favorite kank on to his bed to send a message is more interesting story, by far. Or if some elf or westsider is fucking with Guild interests, beating them into a bloody pulp, and then offering them a deal to keep living is a more interesting story. Figuring out a way to zero out a merchant's bank account, by applying pressure to the Nenyuk. Getting a crafter banned from selling to the market stalls.

There's a whole bunch of interesting outcomes you could imagine a powerful and pervasive criminal empire could engineer, beyond just having a PC with master sneak/hide and a potent poison type "backstab."

[Shabago]

I offer the following as potential solutions:

1: There should exist a supply of special materials dispensed from an NPC that only the Guild or theoretical elf clans can get ahold of...and use to any benefit.  Say there's a special Guild poison and Guild lockpick and Guild smuggling gear. For example, perhaps there's a Guild NPC that will taint a blade with a much stronger version of bloodburn.

2: There could be a WANTED flag for the westside and a WANTED flag for the eastside. Crimes would be attacking clanned PCs or NPCs, or entering certain locations without being clanned. If flagged, it makes tough NPCs with max scan aggro.  Some of these NPCs should even be on the southside, in appropriate locations. Members of the Arm of the Dragon clan always have this flag. People who become known as working for templars -- ie, aides, soldiers -- get the flag and never lose it without being pardoned by a PC or NPC with appropriate rank.

In that regard, guild bosses could and should be the templars of the westside.

3: Right now apartments on the southside are useless as storage units, because lockpicks have become so common. In addition to making Allanak more a wasteland, as hoarder-type people flee out to places where lockpicks are less common, this is a problem for the Guild, because traditionally one of their rackets was protection schemes.

Firstly, lockpicks should break more often. Even on a successful use, their quality should be degrade, every time.

Secondly, only members of the Guild or a theoretical elf clan should be able to make lockpicks of average quality or better. Nonclanned characters should be stuck making super shitty lockpicks. A certain shop should have all it's potentially good lockpicks removed from it's loot table, and replaced with all crap lockpicks.

This would give criminal organizations more control over who has a lockpick, and make protection schemes feasible again.

4: The Guild, in particular, under certain circumstances, should be able to buy crime-code immunity, representing bribes paid to the common solider by the organization. (with abuse resulting in character storage)

Personal opinion inbound rather then official standpoint: As the former Guild staffer, and a lover of the Rinthi general;

1) "Stronger poisons" will not be something I would ever support, in the current environment of the game, as the last thing we need is more "Insta-Win" buttons being used. Gear perks? Sure. Some exist. I wouldn't be opposed to others being added. In fact, it's something I'll bring up to the current staff team over the Guild for you all. Not saying it'll happen, but it's worth the discussion.

2) It's a lawless area. There are NPCs that react to seeing any attack upon fellow 'clan' members as is. Does this always work? Of course not. Would it work even if there were flags? ...Still no. If you think someone has disregarded the virtual or NPC world by, say, whacking someone in one of the bars - Wish up. I know I don't mind animating, if I'm available, to break kneecaps if warranted.

3) The majority of items originate in PC hands that would/should have them. Then they sell them for favours, coin/profit or have a stockpile and get murdered. Now 20 decent picks are in the hands of 'whoever'. Degrading/nerfing them is fine on paper, but it wouldn't really correct anything. It's something that needs to carry IC consequences from the "crews" if it's such an issue. Threatening those in possession of for pay offs, breaking fingers, robbing the robbers and so on is a more interesting RP story over 'Code nerf'.

4) You'd need to expand on this theory a little more for me. How? Temp AoD clanning if they pay someone? Why would we automate that when it's entirely possible to do that via IC interaction? PCs should handle PCs and virtual should handle the virtual, imo.

[Shabago]

'Rinth players have the biggest advantage of every location on the game map - a safe way to practice combat skills, back-stab and sap on humanoid npcs with zero consequences. It's only unsafe if another play chooses to make it so.

I wouldn't word it this way. Can you technically get away with doing so? Yeah. If there's IC reason/cause for it, rather then 'Get gud'. Further take into account the virtual and npc world. It's not a carte blanche area. If people are killing wholesale, and it's seen - expect to get dealt with rather harshly by those in the area.

[Bebop]

I offer the following as potential solutions:

1: There should exist a supply of special materials dispensed from an NPC that only the Guild or theoretical elf clans can get ahold of...and use to any benefit.  Say there's a special Guild poison and Guild lockpick and Guild smuggling gear. For example, perhaps there's a Guild NPC that will taint a blade with a much stronger version of bloodburn.

2: There could be a WANTED flag for the westside and a WANTED flag for the eastside. Crimes would be attacking clanned PCs or NPCs, or entering certain locations without being clanned. If flagged, it makes tough NPCs with max scan aggro.  Some of these NPCs should even be on the southside, in appropriate locations. Members of the Arm of the Dragon clan always have this flag. People who become known as working for templars -- ie, aides, soldiers -- get the flag and never lose it without being pardoned by a PC or NPC with appropriate rank.

In that regard, guild bosses could and should be the templars of the westside.

3: Right now apartments on the southside are useless as storage units, because lockpicks have become so common. In addition to making Allanak more a wasteland, as hoarder-type people flee out to places where lockpicks are less common, this is a problem for the Guild, because traditionally one of their rackets was protection schemes.

Firstly, lockpicks should break more often. Even on a successful use, their quality should be degrade, every time.

Secondly, only members of the Guild or a theoretical elf clan should be able to make lockpicks of average quality or better. Nonclanned characters should be stuck making super shitty lockpicks. A certain shop should have all it's potentially good lockpicks removed from it's loot table, and replaced with all crap lockpicks.

This would give criminal organizations more control over who has a lockpick, and make protection schemes feasible again.

4: The Guild, in particular, under certain circumstances, should be able to buy crime-code immunity, representing bribes paid to the common solider by the organization. (with abuse resulting in character storage)

Personal opinion inbound rather then official standpoint: As the former Guild staffer, and a lover of the Rinthi general;

1) "Stronger poisons" will not be something I would ever support, in the current environment of the game, as the last thing we need is more "Insta-Win" buttons being used. Gear perks? Sure. Some exist. I wouldn't be opposed to others being added. In fact, it's something I'll bring up to the current staff team over the Guild for you all. Not saying it'll happen, but it's worth the discussion.

2) It's a lawless area. There are NPCs that react to seeing any attack upon fellow 'clan' members as is. Does this always work? Of course not. Would it work even if there were flags? ...Still no. If you think someone has disregarded the virtual or NPC world by, say, whacking someone in one of the bars - Wish up. I know I don't mind animating, if I'm available, to break kneecaps if warranted.

That's like saying the crimcode southside doesn't work.  It does work.  It acts as a deterrent or an immediate consequence after.  The northwest side is not lawless.  It's just ran by the Guild, not the Templarate.  That should be reflected.  The Guild should have some relative safety in their own territory or the game world should react.  At least higher level Guilders should be offered that protection.  But again, that's like saying just get rid of the crim flag southside because it doesn't work.  It does work.

I don't really like the idea that anytime something happens you should wish up.  The game code should reflect the game world.  People shouldn't need to wish up for every arbitrary thing.  It's too open to interpretation.  In the southside if someone is killed or a templar or noble is wounded, it's pretty obvious guards are going to be called by VNPCs during the day and people are going to react.  The same should be said for the Guild on Guild territory.

As far as the poisons go, I think what he's trying to say is that hunter types that can go hunt for poison can just go get it.  They are effectively more powerful and flexible than the criminal org that's supposed to be the authority on assassination, poisons and spice.  So if the more potent poisons were sourced inside of the rinth and heavily guarded that would make more sense.  Instead, hunter #4 with five days of game play can insta kill the spooky assassin.

Overall, the Guild's nefarious reach isn't reflected in the game world socially or codedly.  And there needs to be a discussion to fix that.  Otherwise the Guild just ends up being an extension of southside which is no fun, or any leader with any controversial thoughts southside or northside is beholden to insta-kill.  Insta-kill is acting like a big ole nuke in the game where a lot of people can't do shit.

And who has insta-kill?  A spooky assassin who's got power in a criminal organization who's been around 6 months?  A rich and powerful noble?  No.  Hunter #4 with advanced archery and skinning.  The game meta is tilted, and that needs a looksy.  I'm really, really tired of it being the end all be all in the game.  I'm really tired of it being like oh you're a powerful noble?  Oh you're a powerful warrior with a gajillion days played?  Well you can't save against this skill I'm going to use on you because you don't have it and I've edged it with a poison that will instantly immobilize you.  Goodbye!  Oh you're sitting in a fancy tavern?  Doesn't matter.  You're not safe.  But the crappiest tavern in the land has like eight guards at it.  Oh you're a nefarious boss with a history in the most feared criminal organization in the city?  That's okay.  I can kill you without any repercussions in front of a bunch of people, beep boop.  Hunter #4 should not the most feared person in the game.  There's clearly some issues where the meta is imbalanced at present and story telling is taking a back seat.

Ultimately here is how I see it --- and edited to add

I do not want every character I play to have to join the Byn for 84 years first to survive.  I don't want every character I play to have to think, can I get perraine?  Can I poison?  Do I have blowdarts?  Can I branch it?  Will I be okay??!  What about the story?  What about snobby characters that want to start some drama.  They shouldn't be insta-killed.  This isn't fun.  If perraine and one hit kills are going to exist in the game they should be unspeakably, unspeakably rare.  The docs say they are, but they realistically are not.  And ultimately, even if you are very powerful in the end it absolutely will not matter because if someone decides to pull an insta-kill many characters won't even have the skill used to take them down in one hit so they have no save on their end against it.

I don't care about the logic of oh well so and so could escape so we have to kill them immediately.  Okay.  Then get better.  It happens.  Role with that failure and that story.  Strive harder to get them in compromising positions with your RP skills.  It sucks.  It happens.  This is a game.  When I played a Guild boss earlier in the game, I didn't use perraine not once.  Not ever.  I killed a scorcerer and a psion in that time.

Someone with like 100 days played, beefed all to hell shouldn't be able to die instantly because they don't have backstab or blowgun.  All of their training shouldn't amount to naught.  It's silly.  This is a game, and playability has to be a factor.  If there were any other game that existed where a character with 25,000 hours played on it, with all of their skills maxed could insta-die and be lost to a character that's been around less than 200 hours - it would be a hard nope. 

As for the topic at hand it just doesn't make any sense to say The Guild, which is a clan, has no coded bearing on their own territory.  It's like saying an assassin can creep into the Kadian estate, stab someone to death in the courtyard infront of literally everyone and just walk out.  Either the Guild is a real clan or it isn't.

I don't mean to harp on the insta-kill too much but right now it is basically being used as a shock collar to reinforce safe game play.  It does not reflect the game world.  It only reflects the PCs who have been in power for a long, long time and the will of those that are playing the coded skill pursuit game.  It isn't beholden to RP, lore, or story.  It is beholden to code.  And that is going to make the story feel shallow again and again until some balances and checks are put into play in the Guild and every where else.

[Veselka]

I'm leery of adding a type of 'crime code' to one of the only lawless civilized areas in the game. There are already a plethora of hidden Guild Clanned NPCs that will jump in and assist a clanned Guilder if they are attacked. Perhaps adding more of those around town, so that if an NPC is jumped by a PC, other NPCs will jump in to assist that NPC, thereby reflecting some sort of turf camaraderie. Even by having every Labyrinth-dweller start play as a member of 'The Labyrinth' Clan, would make it so NPCs assist that PC over someone from Allanak proper.

Abusable, to be certain, but the privileges to the clan could always be revoked if they're abusing it, much like would happen with any other clan in the game.

[Veselka]

Overall I'm confused by the arguments in this debate. Some people don't like 'insta kill' or the ability for other PCs to swiftly and effectively kill other PCs. Other people maintain the view that PCs are too untouchable and long-lived. There was even a thread about how there should be term-limits to leadership roles, due to the perception that they are untouchable and so on.

Then there is this argument that the 'meta' of the game is skewed towards code and not towards storytelling. I suppose I just haven't seen that to be the case, personally. There's quite a bit of politics and side-plots and shady dealings to affect the reputation of people in the game from very small to very big, the sort of slow-rolling locomotive that either leaves a trail of corpses or a destroyed reputation. I think the 'Insta Kills' are more noticeable, because they leave a dead PC and living PCs to mourn or revenge them.

I personally have always been in favor of combat being more brutal and swift. I think PCs (even perceived untouchable PCs) should be fearful of walking around alone at night. I've seen attempted assassination attempts on Nobles and Templars, some of them very successful, and GMH Family as well. I'm not sure where this idea that people are too powerful to fail comes from -- They're too powerful until they aren't, and then I guess people just take that for granted and move on to the next longest lived PC and quietly fume that they've been around for too long.

If we move away from the brutality of combat or 'Insta Kill', it would only further perpetuate the long-lived PCs. If it is easier for people to survive, then they will survive until they store and move on to another concept. If we are playing a permadeath MUD with permanent consequences to actions, then yes, death is the ultimate consequence. I've seen many torture victims, or people allowed to escape with a crippling injury. They don't tend to last much longer than their initial torturing, because it typically breeds resentment towards the offending party, and they want to exact revenge against them.

I'm all for quicker turnaround on PCs, within reason. Be it a red shirt or a leader. I see a lot of pulled punches IG recently, but I think it's the connecting punches and deaths that drive the story forward. It's a difference of opinion -- who's story is more important? There are a lot of people who play the game and want to believe their particular PC's story is important, or the most important, but it's really the game world's story that I want to perpetuate and drive forward. I think it would require more Staff direction for what exactly that story is, but the reliance on long-lived PCs to tell the game's story is sort of an unending catch 22.

Do I think the Guild or any clan for that matter should have a reciprocal response to threats, managed by either code or Staff intervention? Yes and no. But I think that clever Guild PCs have effected untouchable status by pulling the right strings in the past. I don't think it should just be handed to them on a silver platter, much as it isn't exactly handed to GMH Family on a silver platter, or even Nobles on a silver platter. It depends on the PC within that organization to reach any sort of status, it usually takes time, effort, money, and can be rescinded on a whim.

[nessalin]

Locking this for a few hours.

[Shalooonsh]

So there's a lot going on here, and unlike Nessalin just giving a breather, which I think is definitely warranted, I was about to just slam the hammer down and lock this woeparty straight up.

A small reminder of the rules, for those who maybe haven't read them in a while, or have read them and have decided they either do not apply to them, or they're popular enough to sidestep them:
1 - No talk of previous characters within 1 year.  This DOES INCLUDE vague snarks, comments, mentions, allegories, and reverse prophecies.
2 - Keep it bloody civil.  This includes comments about how any sort of previous PC may or may not have ended in anything less than a purely factual tone.  Please see above notation about vague snarks, comments, mentions, allegories, or scribbling someone's phone number on the latrine wall.

Now I could go post by post through his thread and shoot more holes in it than an East Texas Highway Sign, but I'll just address a few key points:

On the subject of the Lawless Area of the Northern Quarter of the Biggest City Which Shall Remain Named In All of Our Minds:
The Oxford Definition of Lawless-
law·less
/ˈlôləs/
adjective
not governed by or obedient to laws; characterized by a lack of civic order.
"it was a lawless, anarchic city"
synonyms:   anarchic, anarchical, disorderly, ungovernable, unruly, without law and order, disruptive, insurrectionary, insurgent, revolutionary, rebellious, insubordinate, riotous, mutinous, mutinying, seditious, revolting, terrorist More

The key portion of that is "Not Governed."  This does not simply include by an active and taxing government, this means by any form of control which may seek to govern the actions of those within.   In the particular instance which has been named ad nauseum in this thread, any governance by the criminal organizations involved is done on a case-by-case basis.  To break it down into simple terms:  If players patrol, things get patrolled.  If players do not patrol, natural selection occurs.

The reason for this is simple:  There's already a templarate and a militia in the city.  The criminal organization involved here is just that, a criminal organization.  They care about crime.... not law.  They care about money coming in for their crimes, and they care about the people they employ being tough enough and savvy enough to handle their own shit while still kicking up the promised pouches.  If they aren't tough enough or savvy enough to handle their own shit.... well, please see definition of "natural selection" under the Oxford terms.

We have patrols and NPC law set up where we see reason for patrols and NPC law.
Luir's has NPC law.
Morin's has NPC law.
RSV has NPC law.
Allanak has NPC law where NPC law is valid.
Blackwing has NPC law.
Cenyr has NPC law.

If we added NPC law for this one instance, it would also stand to reason that we should add roaming packs of d-elves all over the Pah to keep those darn tootin roundears off the land! 
It would stand to reason that roaming packs of Tuluki Legionaires would keep watch over the grasses and smack those hooligans from the south left and right!
Roaming packs of cloak-wearing mekillot would keep law out on the flats, and then, who would be brave enough to go on mekillot poop heists?  No one, I say.

Law abounds where law should abound.  Are you a Guilder who wants to keep shit in order on the streets?  Make it happen for as long as you have the PC person-power to do it. 

And on the thought of any 100 day played character being invincible?  I laughed out loud.  The name of the game is Armageddon.  There's no winning this.  No matter how tough you are, there are ways to take you out, and if you piss off the right people, you'll get taken out.

All that being said, when this thread re-opens, I want it to be full of CONSTRUCTIVE IDEA MAKING and CIVIL [CENSORED] DISCUSSION.  Do not use it to air personal grievances or bait people into firing back.  Do not use it to snark at some action you see as being unjust/invalid/woe-inducing.

Use it to better the game, and LISTEN to the opposing viewpoints.

~Fin~

[Shabago]

Unlocked, as previously mentioned.

[Riev]

Question:

Are there ramifications for Templars, say, who kill (or have people kill) GMH employees or family members, because they don't get along?
If Indie Hunter Ramos Von Ramosson has been trying to get a particular custom cloak made from Kadius, and the current Overseer/merchants/etc have been giving him the run around, are there ramifications for him? Are they SIMILAR to the Templar?

Now, does this same thing happen if someone does this to the Guild? Would The Guild, non-virtually, start to make someone's life hell because they killed some Initiate/Adept in their own clan?

I'm hoping the answers are all yes, but in my anecdotal experience, the consequences come so far removed from the event that it doesn't connect.

[Lutagar]

Now, does this same thing happen if someone does this to the Guild? Would The Guild, non-virtually, start to make someone's life hell because they killed some Initiate/Adept in their own clan?

Why would they? Pcs aren't allowed to reach ranks where they'd actually be anything but expendable muscle to the organisation.

More likely the npcs that matter (which you don't get to interact with) laugh about it and just wait another month for another bunch of expendable thugs to replace the ones they'd lost.

[Brokkr]

I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

Was this before threaten, or was threaten not used for some reason?  It serves as a pretty good illustration of a situation threaten was created to deal with, so it would be useful to know the reasons it isn't being used in such situations.

As far as the topic on hand...

Not going to say there isn't some sort of glass ceiling for organizations in the Rinth, there is.  Play seems a bit more freeform and on the players to make it work and find their fun and roles.  But it seems to me when it comes into play, and the virtual organizations come into play, frequency is much less than the rest of Allanak.  And when it does, it has a different flavor, and at least in the last couple of years, has been used more to support player initiatives.

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

[Dar]

That was partly what I was meaning to say when this thread got unlocked.

A lot of people complain about the glass ceiling, well the rinth is one area where there is a LOT less of it. There is a version of it, but it crystallizes more when you start delving into magick too much. The glass ceiling shows when you start going too far into sorcery/magick/demonology type of shit. But mundane? You are literally as powerful, as feared, as revered, as capable as ... as you manage to become. Everything is in your hands.


There is a lot of complaints here. But I think it's important to measure some aspects of the game in the currency of FUN. And I can honestly say that the only other clan I've had as much fun as I did running various rinthies, is when I was in RF.

There are periodically higher rank NPCs showing up with the guild, but for the most part they do so to jumpstart recruitment infrastructure. Occasionally introduce a plot lead. That's it. Everything else is player ran.

If you start introducing more structure, you'll start introducing more rules, you'll create your own glass ceiling that chafes you so in the southern part of the city.

[Nile]

Imo, no. If the 'rinth needs teeth then PCs should give it that edge. I'd like to see most of this done IG. If you want some crim-code get your crew patrolling on the regular. I've had countless interactions of this nature; me enforcing some sort of penalty for bad behaviour/getting caught out in a bad situation. Some of them escalate to violence and sometimes drawn out personal feuds (which are the best) others don't.

But I think the rinth design right now (and yes Guild does get major perks with regard to most of the NPCs in the westside) is okay. It needs work in other areas imo but what I had in mind seems to be happening to an extent already.

[LindseyBalboa]

I just want a coded, staff-supported c-elf clan in the 'rinth. But all this talk about the Guild kinda makes me want to play another.

[number13]

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

It should remain a niche for those who want less, but...I think that niche needs more protection from outsiders coming in to stomp on the fun.

It's a delicate balance. Nobody wants invincible mega-crooks who can never be defeated or punished, but it's really only the grace and restraint of other PCs that protects the Rinth's integrity as a less structured playground (for murder). Because the Rinth has a high turn over (the aforementioned murder, plus rinthi graduating to the wider world), growing a PC defense force isn't always plausible.

Yes, it's fun to roam around and kick 2-day old Bynnies out of the alleyways, or patrol east/westside from opposing gang members. That's most of the fun in the Rinth, in fact. It's not fun having to deal with 20, 50, 100, 300-day old outsiders coming in stomp.

Just as an example, at one point, I had a exceptionally combat capable PC -- by Rinthi standards. It's possible this character was the toughest in the Rinth at the time. All it took was a big hunter to come out of the desert, festooned with armor, to render this character inert, incapable of defending their turf.

It was nothing to whine about at the time -- that other character wasn't there to stomp on the fun. It just feels like rinthi should have a little more home ground advantage against outsiders. And, just as there's advantages for crafters in GMHs, there should be advantages for sneakies in rinthi clans, to facilitate the idea that the Rinth grows the best criminals.

[Lizzie]

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

It should remain a niche for those who want less, but...I think that niche needs more protection from outsiders coming in to stomp on the fun.

It's a delicate balance. Nobody wants invincible mega-crooks who can never be defeated or punished, but it's really only the grace and restraint of other PCs that protects the Rinth's integrity as a less structured playground (for murder). Because the Rinth has a high turn over (the aforementioned murder, plus rinthi graduating to the wider world), growing a PC defense force isn't always plausible.

Yes, it's fun to roam around and kick 2-day old Bynnies out of the alleyways, or patrol east/westside from opposing gang members. That's most of the fun in the Rinth, in fact. It's not fun having to deal with 20, 50, 100, 300-day old outsiders coming in stomp.

Just as an example, at one point, I had a exceptionally combat capable PC -- by Rinthi standards. It's possible this character was the toughest in the Rinth at the time. All it took was a big hunter to come out of the desert, festooned with armor, to render this character inert, incapable of defending their turf.

It was nothing to whine about at the time -- that other character wasn't there to stomp on the fun. It just feels like rinthi should have a little more home ground advantage against outsiders. And, just as there's advantages for crafters in GMHs, there should be advantages for sneakies in rinthi clans, to facilitate the idea that the Rinth grows the best criminals.

Possiblilty, what do you think about this?

All rinthis would have a tattoo. A simple mark, specific scar, something - anywhere on their body that identifies them as a rinthi.

THEN

Add 1 or 2 mid-level-skill/defense/offense wandering NPC thugs, on each "side" of the rinth.

THEN

Change the current scripts in "who gets picked on in the rinth and who doesn't" to reflect the above, combined with the current scripts.

SO:

A guy who does NOT have the rinthi mark, and shows up wearing anything that isn't a rinthi garment, is an automatic target for those wandering npc scripts. AND any NPC who happens to be around when that wandering NPC targets his victim, will assist.

AND

A guy who is NOT a marked rinthi and comes with *exclusively* rinthi-specific garments, will be treated as they usually are now.

AND

A rinthi (who would show up right out of chargen automatically with this mark) would be treated however they are treated now, regardless of the source of their garments.

So, unlike guards at gates, nothing prevents the northie scum from coming into the Rinth. But they risk getting the shit beat out of them simply because they're not a rinthi unless they don't stand out. And by stand out I don't mean wearing only under "x" valued stuff. I mean wearing only rinthi-specific stuff.

Edited to add: This new addition could be in effect for the entire rinth EXCEPT a specific paths leading from the "southside" to the rinth. The specific path near the Byn on Hathor's that is known about, and the one closest to the bar on the west side.

That way it won't require a doc change: people still are welcome to go to these places for trade in questionable goods with shady businessmen, as always. But if you wander off the "doing business in the bar" path - you're a target, and not a customer.

[kahuna]

I believe the rinth needs an overhaul, however the details of how, what, where and why are above all of our pay grades. Documentation is the backbone of any game, if the docs say one thing but the reality is much different that's something that needs to be justified at the upper echelons of staff.

[Brokkr]

I think it is important to note that the rinth is fluid.  Some folks will be born and die there, sure.  Others will be Southsiders that hit a level of poverty or need that they move into the rinth.  Or escaped slaves. Etc.

So it isn't like you have citizenship in the rinth or something.  You belong to a gang.  Or tribe.  Or you don't, and are the preyed upon.  If you are powerful enough to not be prey when by yourself, then I guess you aren't prey.